Pax Keovar Goblin Squad Member |
CBDunkerson Goblin Squad Member |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Nihimon wrote:It looks to me like Alejia's Crossing matches up with Land Rush Settlement "K".They've added mountains in the middle of the forests. I don't think we can assume older maps match the one shown here to that degree of detail.
Assuming they are all in the game, my guesses at the locations for various sites would be;
Alejia's Crossing: -20,05
Castle Baskraal: -10,-07
Dismal Caverns: 06,-11
Echo Cleft: 03,-02
Emerald Spire: -05,07
Fort Inevitable: -14,16 -13,16 -14,17
Fort Riverwatch: -33,-18 -33,-17 -32,-17
The Misted Vault: -15,-03
Mosswater: -34,09
Murdoon Homestead: -14,-14
Oreena's Cottage: -03,-02
Pit of Chains: -16,08
Silvershade Lake: 02,-15 02,-14 03,-15
Skull-Basher's Den: -17,-07
Thelsterex's Cave: -04,-18
Thornkeep: 00,00 00,01 01,00
Toad Hollow: -02,14
Woodbristle Homestead: 05,04
AvenaOats Goblin Squad Member |
Something I noticed that I did not see picture on the legend in a couple of hexes 00.11- 00.15 and 01.10-01.13 there is a icon of a camp fire. what does that stand for.
Lee previously had bonfires all over the place to indicate general wilderness hexes. It looked like the world was on fire. I suspect he cleared them all out for simplicity and missed a few. :)
They've added mountains in the middle of the forests.
One of the things I noticed in a large part of the world is that a lot of land is quite "mountainous without really appearing on maps as mountains. Ie smaller mountains effective. I kinda see the current PFO map like that. The mountains only appear because the GW put a magnifying glass over the area and voila it's more rich in geographical information and topological variation than a high-level view.
Just a sort of reaction I've had for this from the beginning and why it does not surprise me... to lead into another question I can see why the devs confirmed speed does not change that much for game purposes, but in RL speed varies a lot going through woods, mountains compared to clear open roads and plains. Still maybe that can be reviewed in light of other systems in a few years time or perhaps the effects of variable distance and locality vs global travel would be put into proper relief with a much expanded map...
AvenaOats Goblin Squad Member |
The lowlands... Does that mean that we will have sometime flood?
I think it's more that this is part of the (very large) West Sellen River's flood plain, which is therefore good farm-land and looks as such. Secondly the more detailed map blog shows swampland too, again a different type of hex.
I don't think there will be any flooding and there won't seem to be any weather that affects the game world either, but over time crowdforging and or future directions "anything is possible" as it were albeit that list is huge, naturally.
Finally it does mean probably in terms of future, that being near a water-way if boats are ever added as a major update, those hexes will be located to take advantage of that, being near the river.
I have just noticed, where is the west of the map? You know with the imodeae settlement and the river.
a written legend will be helpful to read the map.
Hopefully you caught the latest update: Goblinworks blog: A More Detailed Map
Très bien?
Quandary |
I can see why the devs confirmed speed does not change that much for game purposes, but in RL speed varies a lot going through woods, mountains compared to clear open roads and plains.
I thought that answer was a bit vague, because nominal speed can theoretically be the same but effective speed can be slower when you need to move around trees, boulders, bogs, etc. I was also surprised by the answer because in my experience of the demo, movement speed going up the steep rocky hill in fact seemed slower than on flat ground. If they are saying that there isn't a fixed speed difference based on terrain type, and flat open ground in the mountains will have the same speed as flat open ground in the plains, that makes sense, but also doesn't reflect whether mountains, forests, hills, swamps, etc will have terrain features that EFFECTIVELY prevent moving at the full speed you can over flat featureless plains.
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
Valkenr Goblin Squad Member |
Taylor Hainlen |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are the hexes around Z Swamp or Water? Lee says around 7:45 in the video that "we still don't have any swamp hexes on this map".
They are swamps. Lee was incorrect during the dev blog video due to the map missing terrain icons(without them the colors can be quite hard to differentiate). The new full map is missing the terrain features as well but you can see the terrain icons in the legend on that post. I'll make sure we fix the full map to include them when I get in on Monday.
(And yes I am aware I am still missing my staff member designation. I swear I'm actually an employee!)
Valkenr Goblin Squad Member |
Bluddwolf Goblin Squad Member |
Kazz Signsoul Goblin Squad Member |
I just took a look at the blog and maps last night.
First thing I did was print of the Land Rush map and detailed map and cross reference them. I drew in the cliffs by hand.
Both the maps have got me excited for EE! Can hardly wait!
Personally, the whole choke point thing is really appealing to me.
Did anyone else go over board and make an excel doc to find the optimal settlement to go for? I think my data is pretty good, but after reading prior posts on the distance across the hexes, I think my measurements are about 65% of what they should be. (As long as I'm consistently wrong for all measurements it shouldn't skew the interpretation to badly, i hope).
I did notice some inconsistencies between the 2 maps though. Like the meteor hex by 'O' is to the north-west on the LR map, not the north-east like on the Detailed map. Also the X north of 'H' is at -09,-03 on the LR instead of at -10,-03.
Can we assume the LR map is a more infallible representation of what things well be like for EE then the Detailed map?
//as a side note; according to how the interpretation came out 'M' is the safest settlement (least at risk from monsters), while 'C' is the most at risk.
CBDunkerson Goblin Squad Member |
Are the hexes around Z Swamp or Water? Lee says around 7:45 in the video that "we still don't have any swamp hexes on this map".
On the Thornkeep map that is Toad Lake, which is described as 'stagnant and knee deep' with lots of moss and cypresses. So, yeah swampy.
There are no open water hexes on the landgrab map, but on the full map there are four lakes along the eastern edge of the map, Silvershade lake north of Thornkeep, the West Sellen River along the western edge, and two lakes just east of the river (both surrounded by swamp).
Bluddwolf Goblin Squad Member |
DeciusBrutus Goblinworks Executive Founder |
Nihimon Goblin Squad Member |
Nihimon wrote:Are the hexes around Z Swamp or Water? Lee says around 7:45 in the video that "we still don't have any swamp hexes on this map".They are swamps. Lee was incorrect during the dev blog video due to the map missing terrain icons(without them the colors can be quite hard to differentiate). The new full map is missing the terrain features as well but you can see the terrain icons in the legend on that post. I'll make sure we fix the full map to include them when I get in on Monday.
(And yes I am aware I am still missing my staff member designation. I swear I'm actually an employee!)
Thanks very much for the info Taylor :)
CBDunkerson Goblin Squad Member |
Looks like W, AC, and AD are the choice plots of land.
Depends on what you are looking for. For instance, none of those has easy access to a meteor strike hex. W may only be two hexes away from one, but there is an elevation change in the way... getting to it requires travel through 10 hexes. The meteor strike to the SE is actually closer.
Those three hexes are good for having lots of varied types of terrain in a small area, but they also have competing settlement locations in fairly close proximity. AC and AD will have limited access to plains hexes early on and thus may run short of food. W is close to the Emerald Spire, which may be a good thing, a bad thing, or both. Et cetera.
E, K, and O have close access to meteorite strikes that it would be difficult for any other starting settlement to contest (AB seems to also, but again an elevation change would make it more difficult to access). B, C, L, and AB occupy corners of the map which they could expand to fill and thus limit the directions they need to defend against in the early game. AD has a similar unopposed region to its NE. A & L are partially shielded by the large NPC settlements nearby. Et cetera.
There are lots of different ways of estimating the value of different settlement locations... to the point that without knowing all the details, which are subject to change in any case, it is likely impossible to correctly weight all the factors to determine which are the best choices.
Kazz Signsoul Goblin Squad Member |
I just want to be sure of what hexes have which resources.
- Plains -> Food stuffs (farming, gathering, ect), magical essences, (eye of neut? or is that from the swap hex?).
- Mountains -> Ore (all flavors of the quarry-bow).
- Meteor -> Rare Ore (Sky Metal, Adamantium, Meteoric iron,.others?..)
- Forests -> Trees, wood, herbs, shrubs (shrubberies, and knights of say "NEE!"?)
- Mountain Forests -> Some mountain stuff, some forest stuff. Not as much as either.
- Hills -> THIS is where I get lost. I have no idea what Hills have. Some aspects of plains and some of mountains? Grazing land for herds of cattle and some lesser quarries? I took a skim through the blog and found nothing in detail. Just that hills, do in fact, exist in PFO. Does anyone remember what was said about hills?
//also, I forgot about hills in my spreadsheet; thus my questions about them. Now I have to go back and add them in; and remeasure distances and reformat some tables. (I put the hills in as plains. Oops.)
I think V looks nice. Not too far from mountains. Relatively close to 2 meteorites. Plenty of forest, a few plains, and RIGHT NEXT TO THE SPIRE!! It is prime virtual-real-estate.
[edit] Thanks Quandary.
Lam Goblin Squad Member |
Kazz Signsoul Goblin Squad Member |
There are some isolated plains (say near G or near AD) amongst forest or highlands or even next to mountain. Are these isolated and unreachable as they have no X?
In this case, those plains are at the same elevation as the surrounding tiles. Its easier to see what elevation is where if you take a look at the larger more detailed map. This maps shows where are the cliffs are, so it makes the tiers of the map more clear.
Stephen Cheney Goblinworks Game Designer |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm curious, why movement rates can not be different based on terrain?
They can be, they just aren't. At least for now.
We've already got speed penalties from armor and encumbrance, and we'll want to tune those to a point everyone's comfortable with before fiddling with other sources.
There's also an open question of which mobility bonuses and penalties we reflect with speed adjustments, and which we reflect with modifications to the rate sprinting applies Fatigue (i.e., Stamina damage).
Lam Goblin Squad Member |
Lam wrote:There are some isolated plains (say near G or near AD) amongst forest or highlands or even next to mountain. Are these isolated and unreachable as they have no X?In this case, those plains are at the same elevation as the surrounding tiles. Its easier to see what elevation is where if you take a look at the larger more detailed map. This maps shows where are the cliffs are, so it makes the tiers of the map more clear.
Yes, one would think that , but that is not currently in the definition. (How do the rules tell us which are same and which are depressions?) So what plains are high plains? What forests are plains level. Currently the labels conflate biome (grassland, plains, forest or even swamp) with elevation. The only thing that seems to escape is badlands.
If I may suggest, use one thing to donate elevation (clear/ diagonals / cross hatch) separately from biome (swamp, forest, grass, plains, drylands, desert/tundra).
Lam Goblin Squad Member |
Kazz Signsoul wrote:
Lam wrote:
There are some isolated plains (say near G or near AD) amongst forest or highlands or even next to mountain. Are these isolated and unreachable as they have no X?
In this case, those plains are at the same elevation as the surrounding tiles. Its easier to see what elevation is where if you take a look at the larger more detailed map. This maps shows where are the cliffs are, so it makes the tiers of the map more clear.
Yes, one would think that , but that is not currently in the definition. (How do the rules tell us which are same and which are depressions?) So what plains are high plains? What forests are plains level. Currently the labels conflate biome (grassland, plains, forest or even swamp) with elevation. The only thing that seems to escape is badlands.
If I may suggest, use one thing to [EDit] denote elevation (clear/ diagonals / cross hatch) separately from biome (swamp, forest, grass, plains, drylands, desert/tundra).
Bringslite Goblin Squad Member |
Bluddwolf wrote:I'm curious, why movement rates can not be different based on terrain?They can be, they just aren't. At least for now.
We've already got speed penalties from armor and encumbrance, and we'll want to tune those to a point everyone's comfortable with before fiddling with other sources.
There's also an open question of which mobility bonuses and penalties we reflect with speed adjustments, and which we reflect with modifications to the rate sprinting applies Fatigue (i.e., Stamina damage).
Am I slow or aren't "terrain" movement speeds adjusted by default? When you go uphill, you actually move less horizontally because you are also going vertically and probably zig zagging. When you move through a forest, you weave through trees, and so on...
Alexander_Damocles Goblin Squad Member |
Stephen Cheney wrote:Am I slow or aren't "terrain" movement speeds adjusted by default? When you go uphill, you actually move less horizontally because you are also going vertically and probably zig zagging. When you move through a forest, you weave through trees, and so on...Bluddwolf wrote:I'm curious, why movement rates can not be different based on terrain?They can be, they just aren't. At least for now.
We've already got speed penalties from armor and encumbrance, and we'll want to tune those to a point everyone's comfortable with before fiddling with other sources.
There's also an open question of which mobility bonuses and penalties we reflect with speed adjustments, and which we reflect with modifications to the rate sprinting applies Fatigue (i.e., Stamina damage).
As is, the trees are so sparse that any moment speed lost due to dodging a tree will be miniscule. As to moving slower because you're also gaining elevation, that is a code issue. Since the majority of your movement is horizontal, the code looks for that first. It doesn't care if you're moving vertically as well. However, some games code in a speed decrease because moving at full speed horizontally as well as now moving vertically just looks silly (and is technically a faster total rate of speed, even though horizontally you're moving at the same speed).
AvenaOats Goblin Squad Member |
Bluddwolf wrote:I'm curious, why movement rates can not be different based on terrain?They can be, they just aren't. At least for now.
We've already got speed penalties from armor and encumbrance, and we'll want to tune those to a point everyone's comfortable with before fiddling with other sources.
There's also an open question of which mobility bonuses and penalties we reflect with speed adjustments, and which we reflect with modifications to the rate sprinting applies Fatigue (i.e., Stamina damage).
That's really good to hear.
I wonder if it's viable to add speed changes based on hex because ultimately rate of resource collection if slower in some hexes due to movement, sounds like it would simply preclude competitiveness of some hex types to build settlements as fast which would be a major disadvantage.
I guess it could depend on how valuable and volume requires the ores, woods are to compensate however.
But yup already a lot of variables to contend with anyway.
Kazz Signsoul Goblin Squad Member |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Okay I think I’ve got all the important bits done for this excel doc.
Gonna share it here ==>> PFO Land Rush Data
I think I can sleep now.
AvenaOats Goblin Squad Member |
@Kazz Signsoul - Fascinating. It gives food for thought and I wonder how closely it aligns with the devs "internal measurements"?! It's certainly usefully indicative and suggests a certain variability in settlement site attractiveness though if factoring in this information being well-known that could factor in competition for such sites that evens them out somewhat.
It looks like a large amount of data for Goblinworks to feast over during Early Enrollment how players interact with the map: Not a bad result!
Tyncale Goblin Squad Member |
@ Kazz It will not be long and we can trump Eve in the "spreadsheet" department. :D
Just kidding, I love this sort of deepdiving into the mechanics. Your xls already gives a hint how complex of a game PFO could become. Complex in the good sense, off course. Amazing, what an amount of work must have gone into this, Kazz.
Thanks a lot, now to crunch some of those numbers.
Xeen Goblin Squad Member |
Why does Lee keep saying "meters" and "kilometers"?
Distances in the Pathfinder RPG and campaign setting are in feet and miles. The developers would have to make a very compelling case to us to allow that to change for Pathfinder Online.I'm somewhat saddened if that's the official terminology.
?
Who doesnt use the metric system these days?Kazz Signsoul Goblin Squad Member |
Even with the spreadsheet, I find myself facing the "Settlers of Catan" conumdrum.
ORE AND WHEAT!?! or BRICK AND WOOD!!?
Its that kind of game-theory. The data just shows the initial rarity of the tiles untill ppl expand.
So you can look at the sheet to try and make an optimal first move.
Except in this case, everyone is moving at once, and they're armed....
Tyncale Goblin Squad Member |
Two questions, Kazz: does the second tab indeed displays distance from a landgrab settlement to a certain hex in kilometers? Or in meters? The numbers make sense in meters but not in kilometers.
Second question: it seems you valued being close to monsterhexes as a safety-hazard? Or did you also consider this a plus when you calculated the final Hex Value? I realize that there are downsides to monster hexes (will attract competition, more of a hassle for lone harvesters) but the fact that they drop resources and the final Boss may drop asomething rare may still tip the balance in favor of being near them.
Last question: the higher the value of a Hex, the better, right?
Thanks again, awesome to ponder those numbers and what they mean for the landgrab settlement hexes.
Kazz Signsoul Goblin Squad Member |
I knew I should have commented better. (same prob with all my code, I never comment enough).
Yes, all the distances are in meters. The Distance Data page gives you the distance from that settlement to the closest hex of that type. So if Settlement XX has 8400 under the mountain column, the closest mountain hex to XX is 8400m away. (Under the Resources Tab, there is an average distance that settlement is from all resource hex types. The lower the number, the more diverse the resources around that settlement are.)
Value, Safety, and Risk are calculated independent of each-other.
In short, Higher Risk, More PvE. Higher Value, more money from more rare resources; also increase likelihood of PvP. More safety, less PvE, and generally closer to major trade routs.
Value is based on rarity and concentration. The more of an uncommon resource in a small area, the higher the score. The value takes an average of rarity of the hexes close to that settlement relative to how many other settlements have that resource also. In short, higher value more likely to have rare/uncommon resource, so more potential to make money.
You can scale the value based on what resource type you prefer.
I well look into a good formula that gives an overall score, but different guilds well have different preferences, so while a one number score is nice and simple, the data becomes fairly meaningless by trying to represent everything.
Safety is basically an indicator of how likely rare resources well drop around that settlement. The higher the safety, the closer you are to the starting areas, the less likely rare drops become. You are also unlikely to be bothered by many monsters. They are also more newbie friendly and crafting guilds with out combat guild friends friendly.
Monster Risk is how likely/often you can expect to fight monsters around that settlement. For big PvE guilds, they are the bee's nees. For trading/gathering guilds, not so much. Places with more monsters also seem more likely to spawn rare resources. The highest risk hexes seem to be close to where the meteors are closer together as-well.
Bluddwolf Goblin Squad Member |
Bluddwolf wrote:I'm curious, why movement rates can not be different based on terrain?They can be, they just aren't. At least for now.
We've already got speed penalties from armor and encumbrance, and we'll want to tune those to a point everyone's comfortable with before fiddling with other sources.
There's also an open question of which mobility bonuses and penalties we reflect with speed adjustments, and which we reflect with modifications to the rate sprinting applies Fatigue (i.e., Stamina damage).
This has me thinking of key words for travel. Not just speed bonuses, but key words that reduce the effects of encumbrance or armor, or key words designed to assist in passing the impassable (mountaineering).
Any thoughts on terrain features beneath the surface?
Tyncale Goblin Squad Member |
Being Goblin Squad Member |
Kazz Signsoul Goblin Squad Member |
@ Kazz It will not be long and we can trump Eve in the "spreadsheet" department. :D
Just kidding, I love this sort of deepdiving into the mechanics. Your xls already gives a hint how complex of a game PFO could become. Complex in the good sense, off course. Amazing, what an amount of work must have gone into this, Kazz.
Thanks a lot, now to crunch some of those numbers.
I LOVE SPREADSHEET_ONLINE!!
LIKE IF YOU DID YOUR INVERSE DIFFERENTIAL DATA ANALYSIS RIGHT IT SHOWS YOU REALY NEAT ANIMATIONS OF SPACESHIPS FIGHTING!!!
but in all, seriousness, love Eve. First MMO where I actually got into the community.
Also, yah, I'll prob make more random spreadsheets as time goes on and details are released. (though this one is nicer looking then most I've done. And simpler! LOOK NO CALCULUS! yes have have applied calculus to my eve builds)
Oh and about this sheet... I'm not sure, I still feel like it's missing some kind of data, or analysis, or something... meh, I'm sure it'l come to me at the most inopportune moment. or someone well tell me. (well, maybe not the evil characters, they'll prob just let me drive myself mad trying to figure it out. like syntax error in 1000 lines of code...)
Tyncale Goblin Squad Member |
Kazz Signsoul Goblin Squad Member |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey, I am pretty sure this falls under calculus!
Fx for P-column in Safety tab:
Quote:=( ( (100/F4) + (100/E4) - (100/B4) - (100/C4) - (100/D4) + (((1*L4) - (1*K4) - (2*J4) - (3*I4))/H4 ) ) / 6 ) * 100;) Please note that I am easily impressed by math. :D
Just be aware that while the raw data is solid (or as close to solid as I could get ->distances), basically all the formulas and results of those formulas are just a bunch of SWAGs. (Scientific-Wild-Ass-Guess). [That's an actual engineering term, fyi.] Just keep SWAGing until it looks like it represents what they talked about in the blogs. (like todays teens!)
Tyncale Goblin Squad Member |
Haha, yes, the last column is mostly for lulz at this moment. But if a Guild wants to be close to "food" hexes and as far away as possible from the very competitive "meteor" hexes, then they will easily find the right data in your xls.
How about a calculator where a guild can input a certain value to certain variables itself, and out pops the right hex for them? Like input a 10 (highly valuable) for vicinity to food hexes, 1(low value) for vicinity to Meteor hexes and bam! suchandsuch hex it is.
Sorry , I shouldn't have said that, shouldn't you be asleep right now? :D
Jazzlvraz Goblin Squad Member |
AvenaOats Goblin Squad Member |
Lee Hammock Goblinworks Lead Game Designer |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Huh, I should be more careful saving files. I only meant to send Ryan the map of the land rush area, not the larger game map. Oh well.
Ignore the campfires, they are a tool I use when mapping things to make sure settlements aren't too close to each other. Basically I put a usually invisible campfire symbol in any hex right next to a settlement to make sure there are no monster hexes there, other settlements, etc.
Also you will notice on the eastern side of the map there are no markers for for settlements, monster hexes, etc. That whole area is sort of the last mapped expansion area after we do everything else (which will take a long time).
I was wrong in that there are a few swamp hexes down south in the land rush area. I thought they were water, but they are swamp.
Some of the locations from the Thornkeep book will be reflected in game initially, and some will be added over time. Initially don't go expecting much as they are generally very expensive time and resource wise to add.
The cluster of three stars in black circles near southern middle of the map is Fort Inevitable, while the similar cluster in the north western corner of the map near the river is Fort Riverwatch.
Man I love checking out other people's spreadsheets.
Lee Hammock Goblinworks Lead Game Designer |
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Also to answer an earlier question, companies can build POIs in any suitable wilderness hex. It does not need to be part of a player settlement to do so. The company can then swear allegiance to a settlement if it wishes, turning the company into a sponsored company (but only if the alignment of everyone in the company is close to that of the settlement, everyone in the company has sufficiently high Reputation, etc). This makes that hex part of the settlement's territory so its laws apply and it will probably want to pull resources from that hex to build and upkeep buildings (and the company will want training and protection in exchange, all feudal like).
Currently it is up in the air whether companies can swear to settlements that does not control an adjacent hex to the company's POI. On one hand, we don't want to limit people too much, but on the other hand we don't want the ideal playstyle to be each settlement having no hexes near itself and instead trying to manage companies controlling hexes all over the map to maximize resource variety (which obviously tactically seems foolish, but still, it's weird).