This hulking, roughly humanoid creature of dirt and stone explodes up from the earth, faceless save for two glowing gemstone eyes.
So, an earth elemental (or someone in the form of one) is capable of using weapons ("roughly humanoid"). However, keep in mind the following rule for polymorph effects (in the Magic chapter):
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.
If the druid want to use weapons in elemental form, they 1) have to be sized appropriately for the elemental they turn into or they incur a penalty and 2) the weapons must be put aside before changing shape and picked up afterward.
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This has been being argued about for several years here.
Among other things, there is the question of whether an earth elemental has anything resembling fingers, or just has great hulking solid stone fists (that don't open.)
Even better is the question of whether they take their weapon or anything they are carrying with them when they stone glide.
Also, elementals can talk. This means they can cast spells without the Natural Spell feat.
elemental:
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
soooo
Elemental, Earth
This hulking, roughly humanoid creature of dirt and stone explodes up from the earth, faceless save for two glowing gemstone eyes.
fluff says yes but then....
Earth elementals are plodding, stubborn creatures made of living stone or earth. When utterly still, they resemble a heap of stone or a small hill.
When an earth elemental lumbers into action, its actual appearance can vary, although its statistics remain identical to other elementals of its size. Most earth elementals look like terrestrial animals made out of rock, earth, or even crystal, with glowing gemstones for eyes. Larger earth elementals often have a stony humanoid appearance. Bits of vegetation frequently grow in the soil that makes up parts of an earth elemental's body.
they have no weapons mentioned in there entry so i would lean to they can't use weapons.
elemental:
Proficient with natural weapons only, unless generally humanoid in form, in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
soooo
Elemental, Earth
This hulking, roughly humanoid creature of dirt and stone explodes up from the earth, faceless save for two glowing gemstone eyes.
fluff says yes but then....
Earth elementals are plodding, stubborn creatures made of living stone or earth. When utterly still, they resemble a heap of stone or a small hill.
When an earth elemental lumbers into action, its actual appearance can vary, although its statistics remain identical to other elementals of its size. Most earth elementals look like terrestrial animals made out of rock, earth, or even crystal, with glowing gemstones for eyes. Larger earth elementals often have a stony humanoid appearance. Bits of vegetation frequently grow in the soil that makes up parts of an earth elemental's body.
they have no weapons mentioned in there entry so i would lean to they can't use weapons.
Emphasis mine.
They can have the body form they want, including humanoid shape. So they can wield simple weapon when they do.
Also, elementals can talk. This means they can cast spells without the Natural Spell feat.
Yes, they can speak, however you still need the natural spell feat for access to your spell component bag, which would unavailable to a polymorphed character.
It should be up to the GM whether "roughly humanoid" equals "has normal humanoid hands and can use weapons".
It is also up for GM determination whether an earth elemental or a druid in earth elemental form can earth glide while carrying anything, including a weapon, shield, or armor. (If the GM says "yes", that opens up the grapple-pin-and-trap-enemy-underground gambit.)
Also, elementals can talk. This means they can cast spells without the Natural Spell feat.Yes, they can speak, however you still need the natural spell feat for access to your spell component bag, which would unavailable to a polymorphed character.
It should be up to the GM whether "roughly humanoid" equals "has normal humanoid hands and can use weapons".
It is also up for GM determination whether an earth elemental or a druid in earth elemental form can earth glide while carrying anything, including a weapon, shield, or armor. (If the GM says "yes", that opens up the grapple-pin-and-trap-enemy-underground gambit.)
A few points to discuss:
If you can talk, and have equipment made for your new form, and you can keep it up for hours/level (and typically for the whole day by the time you get to medium elementals)...well, why not just turn into an elemental at the start of the day, and then don your weapon, spell pouches, and such like anyone else would? And why not just stay like that for the entire day? I mean, with a weapon (and maybe some armor; another tricky issue), the bonuses for a large earth elemental (large bonuses to str, con, and natural armor with a large creature's reach? Yes please), and long strider (Since they are slow), you could make yourself into an extremely effective reach user...that uses a large scimitar as their weapon.Another note: I have no idea where a lot of people are drawing this 'can't bring items with them when earthgliding' notion. I have looked through the elemental type, their description, the earthglide universal monster ability, as well as about a dozen other PC options for gaining earthglide. And none of them mention that you need to leave equipment behind (and some of them would be useless if you had to do so, such as a wizard having to leave behind his headbands and rings, or an oracle that could just as easily be combat focused).
The only thing that I could imagine leading to this is the troubles with wildshape, where it absorbs items you have on you at the time. Since most people prefer to have the option to turn into anything at a moments notice, they usually do not take advantage of things like barding, since they would have to put it on during the heat of battle. But as I mentioned above...a fully equipped earth elemental build could be a rather nice alternative to all this shifting around.
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"Roughly" humanoid does not tell us "capable of using weapons". Giant stone spheres at the ends of the arms are still within the scope of "roughly humanoid".
Let us consider this in context.
Physical Description: The physical characteristics of humans are as varied as the world's climes. From the dark-skinned tribesmen of the southern continents to the pale and barbaric raiders of the northern lands, humans possess a wide variety of skin colors, body types, and facial features. Generally speaking, humans' skin color assumes a darker hue the closer to the equator they live.
Nothing in the racial description for humans states that they have hands. If you're going to make the assumption that anything lacking an explicit inclusion of hands has none, all player races are hosed.
What we know, RAW, is that elementals are both anthropomorphic and amorphous. As such, there is no reason to assume they would be lacking hands unless the elemental itself chooses not to have them.
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My stance is that the question is not really answered by the text of the rules. Me, I'd let you use weapons because it seems reasonable, although any weapons you were holding when you changed would of course meld with your body like all your other equipment.
You won't ever find an explicit statement for elementals for the exact same reason you will never find an explicit statement for humans, or any other humanoid race.
It is assumed humanoids come with hands unless the race description says otherwise.
You can argue strict RAW that since species X does not have a specific notation, they have no hands, but I can take your reasoning and apply it humans, elves and dwarves. There is no specific notation anywhere. Why, other than personal bias, would you rule differently for elementals than anything else that can assume a humanoid shape?
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Read through the elemental descriptions.
Elementals are highly variable in appearance, choosing their own shapes. If an elemental chooses a shape that has hands, it has hands. If an elemental chooses a shape that does not have hands, it does not. Rather than define s specific appearance for elementals, RAW defines a variable appearance with control given to the individual elemental.
In this case, the elemental is a Druid, who is choosing a humanoid form with hands. Nothing RAW is forcing him into this choice or baring him from it.
It is assumed that humanoids have hands, but elementals are a different type entirely from "humanoids", even though they have "roughly humanoid shape".
And again: I am not saying, and have never said, that anything that doesn't specifically say it has hands doesn't, or that this is in general a good strategy for reading the rules. I haven't even said anything remotely like that. I've pointed out that in the specific case of elementals, which have a type which is not "humanoid", and which are nearly always shown as having slam attacks rather than weapon attacks, there is nothing that says whether or not they have hands, and there's certainly plenty of art showing D&D elementals in which they clearly don't have usable hands. I think it's a reasonable question to ask.
They don't have to tell us humans have hands because we already know that; that doesn't mean that everything not specifically stated not to have hands definitely has hands.
Yes, but that whole 'they don't say they do not' and the fact they can use weapons seems like fairly strong circumstantial evidence. Nothing saying that this 'humanoid' form has such an obvious difference, and the evidence of hand use needs a lot of explanation to argue against.
Does it matter, mechanically, if they can use weapons? If not then why not?
...this is the difference between a 'meh' one attack wildshape form, and a wildshape form that is more like an 'enlarge person' with far better buffs (using large earth elemental as the standard, it is a +6 to strength, +2 con, -2 dex, +6 natural armor, plus immunities to crits, bleed, and sneak attacks) and it lasts for hours at a time. On a class that comes with scimitar proficiency built right in. Which is much, much easier to enhance than an AoMF.
Plus, the earth elemental form is often used as a scout form as well. It can pretty much ignore walls in certain environments, and quickly escape if things get hairy to a place few can follow. So I can certainly understand a GM's reluctance towards this idea. Still, from the perspective I can see (which admittedly has bias), this looks like how it works.
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Does it matter, mechanically, if they can use weapons? If not then why not?...this is the difference between a 'meh' one attack wildshape form, and a wildshape form that is more like an 'enlarge person' with far better buffs (using large earth elemental as the standard, it is a +6 to strength, +2 con, -2 dex, +6 natural armor, plus immunities to crits, bleed, and sneak attacks) and it lasts for hours at a time. On a class that comes with scimitar proficiency built right in. Which is much, much easier to enhance than an AoMF.
Plus, the earth elemental form is often used as a scout form as well. It can pretty much ignore walls in certain environments, and quickly escape if things get hairy to a place few can follow. So I can certainly understand a GM's reluctance towards this idea. Still, from the perspective I can see (which admittedly has bias), this looks like how it works.
I can reasonably see not allowing the elemental form to carry equipment with it while earth gliding.
Also, is there anything wrong with allowing the elemental form druid to get some extra attacks with a weapon? If the PC is wading into combat it's most likely because that's the way the PC was built towards and she/ he is most likely not slinging spells which is usually far worse.
The druid is already a 3/4 bab class. Would a weapon wielding earth elemental make a major difference in combats?
I can reasonably see not allowing the elemental form to carry equipment with it while earth gliding.
Also, is there anything wrong with allowing the elemental form druid to get some extra attacks with a weapon? If the PC is wading into combat it's most likely because that's the way the PC was built towards and she/ he is most likely not slinging spells which is usually far worse.
The druid is already a 3/4 bab class. Would a weapon wielding earth elemental make a major difference in combats?
Mostly because they get an 18-20x2 weapon, and the buffs from that wildshape are all applies to strength (ergo, 1.5x str bonus). And maybe that people feel some of the balance of druid is because it has to deal with natural weapon problems if it wants to both own at melee and get 9 spell levels? A bit flimsy of an excuse overall, I'll admit.
I will say again though-where is the 'can't take items with you on an earth glide' idea coming from? I have never seen any actual basis for it.
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"It's not a question of where he grips it!" Whether the elemental has hands is but one of many challenges to weapon use. Just because the elemental may be able to form "fingers" to wrap around a hilt doesn't mean it's overall anatomy supports wielding a scimitar. Effectively using a bladed weapon is based on all kinds of other features like wrists, elbows, shoulders, muscle structure and so forth that allow for acceleration of the blade and other nimble motions for defense, etc. An earth elemental is just animated dirt or rock, it doesn't have any of those things.
I would also observe that the rule provides elementals of roughly humanoid form with proficiency with simple weapons. Scimitars are not simple weapons and it seems a stretch of some distance to argue the druid, proficient with a scimitar in his natural form can carry that proficiency over to an alien form that works completely differently from an anatomical perspective.
Once in elemental form, I'd let the druid pick up any simple weapon and use it but if he picks up anything else he takes a non-proficiency penalty. That of course still leaves the elemental wielding a crossbow...
"What do you mean, I can't reload it? It says right here - proficient with simple weapons, what more do you need? Gees, you are a pain in the butt DM!"
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Latrecis, so...what about all the other creatures that wield weapons and do not have "wrists, elbows, shoulders, muscle structure, and so forth"? Are they suddenly non-proficient despite all the rules to the contrary?
This is the rules forum, not the house rules forum.
RAW: Earth Elementals are described as roughly humanoid.
RAW: Elementals that are roughly humanoid are proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in their description.
Result: Roughly humanoid elementals can use weapons, only proficiency varies.
Now, if you can find another rule somewhere else that states that you cannot use a Martial weapon even though you can use Simple weapons then please post that.
Proficiency is not relevant to whether you can use it or not and taking away someone's proficiency is inappropriate and any player should cry foul.
If the game makes any pretense of following the rules...
New name for Forum! Pretense: Pathfinder the Metagame!.
Less fun than Pathfinder. We not leave adventuring post here.
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Latrecis, so...what about all the other creatures that wield weapons and do not have "wrists, elbows, shoulders, muscle structure, and so forth"? Are they suddenly non-proficient despite all the rules to the contrary?
This is the rules forum, not the house rules forum.
RAW: Earth Elementals are described as roughly humanoid.
RAW: Elementals that are roughly humanoid are proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in their description.Result: Roughly humanoid elementals can use weapons, only proficiency varies.
Now, if you can find another rule somewhere else that states that you cannot use a Martial weapon even though you can use Simple weapons then please post that.
Proficiency is not relevant to whether you can use it or not and taking away someone's proficiency is inappropriate and any player should cry foul.
That's pretty much the reasoning and ruling I've applied thus far in my games. But I only allow it for the Earth Elemental, since it's the only elemental with a 'solid' form. Living fire, air and water simply do not hold stuff.
That's pretty much the reasoning and ruling I've applied thus far in my games. But I only allow it for the Earth Elemental, since it's the only elemental with a 'solid' form. Living fire, air and water simply do not hold stuff.
But, but, water elementals can look like octopuses.
I *demand* 8 tentacle attacks + bite per round if I Wildshape into them. I DEMAND IT! (That's how it works, right?)
For a long time, my view of elementals is that they are amorphous incorporeal spirits that can only physically manifest themselves when in contact with their element. Then they can look like whatever they like. Usually in a form often associated to that element.
Except that per rules, fire, air and water are all solid enough that they can (for example) grapple.
Or be grappled. The elemental subtype renders them immune to crits and such, not maneuvers. It makes sense, I suppose. Water is rather heavy, and it doesn't have the whole 'being solid' thing earth might have. But they manage to stay up. There are forces here at work beyond mere physics.
Admittedly, fire elementals would not be pleasant to tackle. And heck, I would readily acknowledge that they likely could not use wooden equipment that hasn't been protected some way/
Except that per rules, fire, air and water are all solid enough that they can (for example) grapple.That seems to be a reasonable conclusion, but so far as I know it's not explicitly stated. And there's a dev post saying that of course gaseous form creatures can't be grappled, and I could see someone thinking that should apply to air elementals... I'm actually still unsure either way about the whirlwind.
yeah, but was that referring to incorporeal creatures? It seems to me (and I may be wrong) that a lot of gaseous creatures are incorporeal, and air elementals are not that. They lack that subtype. So...I guess they can be tackled?
No need for proficiency .... He q is , can a earth elemental hold a scimitar , and fight ?
As a Druid with wildnshape I am proficient .
All that wrote above had a case. , is there anything WRITTEN I the roles ?
Let me break this down into two separate questions:
1) Can whatever you shift into hold a weapon that is roughly similar to what you want to use? So, can a Earth Elemental, which is a humanoid type that is proficient in simple weapons, use something like a sword? The answer is yes, if you believe a club/mace is similar enough to a sword. If the answer is "NO", then you're out of luck. Some GMs might say a sword isn't anything like a club/mace, while others would say it is close enough.
2) If you answer #1 YES, then the second question is are you proficient in it without wild-shape? If you answer YES to this question, then you are good to go.
The key thing about wildshape is to remember you don't gain the feats of the creature. So, let's be silly and say Earth Elementals had a feat in exotic weapon proficiency and used Nanchuku. You turn into an Earth Elemental, you cannot use Nanchuku to attack.
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The way I view air elemental "solidness" is to think of touching an air elemental like when you put your hand out the window of a moving car and feel the pressure from the wind.
Note you can not only grapple Air elementals and Water elementals you can even do it when they are in whirlwind/vortex form.