Why is the Blackblade a terrible archetype for the Magus?


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Quote:
Third, You are giving up all arcana for half your characters career. No arcana for that long is excessive.

Abstractly you can think of it as an arcana that does this at level 3-

Grants Alertness feat
Grants +1 magical weapon (that can be further enchanced by your arcane pool)
Add +1 damage to all damage rolls for one encounter a day

That's not a terrible arcana.


Was it ever determined if the black blade was immune to being flat out destroyed? Broken is not destroyed...

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Azten wrote:
Was it ever determined if the black blade was immune to being flat out destroyed? Broken is not destroyed...

The blade can be damaged or destroyed.

Ultimate Magic wrote:
Unbreakable (Ex): As long as it has at least 1 point in its arcane pool, a black blade is immune to the broken condition. If broken, the black blade is unconscious and powerless until repaired. If destroyed, the black blade can be reforged 1 week later through a special ritual that costs 200 gp per magus level. The ritual takes 24 hours to complete.
FAQ wrote:

Magus, Black Blade: Can a black blade be sundered?

Yes.
The weapon's immunity the broken condition if it has at least 1 point in its arcane pool only prevents the specific effects of the broken condition. A black blade can still take damage--or even be destroyed--if it has at least 1 point in its arcane pool, it just won't take the additional penalties from the broken condition.

The name of a class feature (in this case, "unbreakable") is flavor text, not rules text.

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What I have not seen is how to repair a damaged black blade. A wizard's bonded object, if damaged but not destroyed, repairs itself when the wizard next prepares spells, but the black blade description contains no such text.

Shadow Lodge

Mending/Make Whole spell to repair Black Blade?


Having played a black blade, I'm not sure how a normal magus gets by with his cheap and insufficient WBL weapon. To me the black blade is obviously more powerful based on how much WBL you have to spend on other stuff since your offense is taken care of and your defense is mainly mirror image for the first part of your career.

My question is "why is the normal magus so terrible compared to black blade".


TheSideKick wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Not quite true. Other then giving up early access to spell recall it also forces the Magus to give up several Arcana he would have taken if he hadn't spent those arcana slots on hexes. This is not necessarily a bad thing but it is an opportunity cost that you have to absorb.
Not terrible but can be unpleasant to let some of those options go in a feat-starved class.

but now you need to weigh the value of hexes like ice tomb, evil eye misfortune + cackle, sleep hex, against magus arcanas that are, for lack of a better terms... garbage by comparison.

honestly i think hexcrafter is nothing but a boon to the magus class.

Maybe in pfs hexcrafter is ok since characters don't play much after level 11, but in regular adventure paths, improved spell recall is awesome. Recall a fireball or any other third level spell for 1 arcane point - yes please.

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Sagotel wrote:
What I have not seen is how to repair a damaged black blade. A wizard's bonded object, if damaged but not destroyed, repairs itself when the wizard next prepares spells, but the black blade description contains no such text.

Sigh...

It's not that I don't understand the rule. It's that I don't like the rule (whine, whine). Magical items do not normally repair themselves. The one exception (as far as I know) is a wizard's bonded item. Since the black blade description does not specifically say that the black blade repairs itself, it does not. It requires a Mending or Make Whole spell, cast by someone of sufficient level, to repair a black blade.

Shadow Lodge

Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Not quite true. Other then giving up early access to spell recall it also forces the Magus to give up several Arcana he would have taken if he hadn't spent those arcana slots on hexes. This is not necessarily a bad thing but it is an opportunity cost that you have to absorb.
Not terrible but can be unpleasant to let some of those options go in a feat-starved class.

but now you need to weigh the value of hexes like ice tomb, evil eye misfortune + cackle, sleep hex, against magus arcanas that are, for lack of a better terms... garbage by comparison.

honestly i think hexcrafter is nothing but a boon to the magus class.

Maybe in pfs hexcrafter is ok since characters don't play much after level 11, but in regular adventure paths, improved spell recall is awesome. Recall a fireball or any other third level spell for 1 arcane point - yes please.

Shouldn't you round up to 2 points?

But extra fireballs are nice but having a near endless supply of spell based debuffs and save or die utility out weights improved spell recall by a wide, wide margin.

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TheSideKick wrote:

...

Shouldn't you round up to 2 points?
...

I don't think so. Fractions are usually rounded down unless the rules say otherwise. The description of Improved Spell Recall stipulates only that a minimum of 1 arcane pool point must be spent to use the feature.


Where does it say that you lose Improved Spell Recall? My reading is you lose regular Spell Recall at 4th, but there is no mention of Improved.

-- david

TheSideKick wrote:
Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:

but now you need to weigh the value of hexes like ice tomb, evil eye misfortune + cackle, sleep hex, against magus arcanas that are, for lack of a better terms... garbage by comparison.

honestly i think hexcrafter is nothing but a boon to the magus class.

Maybe in pfs hexcrafter is ok since characters don't play much after level 11, but in regular adventure paths, improved spell recall is awesome. Recall a fireball or any other third level spell for 1 arcane point - yes please.

Shouldn't you round up to 2 points?

But extra fireballs are nice but having a near endless supply of spell based debuffs and save or die utility out weights improved spell recall by a wide, wide margin.


DM Papa.DRB wrote:

Where does it say that you lose Improved Spell Recall? My reading is you lose regular Spell Recall at 4th, but there is no mention of Improved.

-- david

TheSideKick wrote:
Jon Otaguro 428 wrote:
TheSideKick wrote:

but now you need to weigh the value of hexes like ice tomb, evil eye misfortune + cackle, sleep hex, against magus arcanas that are, for lack of a better terms... garbage by comparison.

honestly i think hexcrafter is nothing but a boon to the magus class.

Maybe in pfs hexcrafter is ok since characters don't play much after level 11, but in regular adventure paths, improved spell recall is awesome. Recall a fireball or any other third level spell for 1 arcane point - yes please.

Shouldn't you round up to 2 points?

But extra fireballs are nice but having a near endless supply of spell based debuffs and save or die utility out weights improved spell recall by a wide, wide margin.

When you lose Spell Recall: the rules in reccent FAQ says the next levels of an ability give the lower one lost (so something that takes Weapon Training 1, when you'd get Weapon trainig 2, you get 1 instead and WT 3 gives 2 instead).


Ah, gotcha. Thanks..

-- david

Starbuck_II wrote:
DM Papa.DRB wrote:

Where does it say that you lose Improved Spell Recall? My reading is you lose regular Spell Recall at 4th, but there is no mention of Improved.

-- david

When you lose Spell Recall: the rules in reccent FAQ says the next levels of an ability give the lower one lost (so something that takes Weapon Training 1, when you'd get Weapon trainig 2, you get 1 instead and WT 3 gives 2 instead).

Shadow Lodge

Sagotel wrote:
I don't think so. Fractions are usually rounded down unless the rules say otherwise. The description of Improved Spell Recall stipulates only that a minimum of 1 arcane pool point must be spent to use the feature.

I always just use the rule of thumb that rounding unless stated otherwise[through GM or rules] should be the least beneficial to the person who is rounding.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Azten wrote:
Was it ever determined if the black blade was immune to being flat out destroyed? Broken is not destroyed...

It's just immune to the penalties of the broken condition.(i.e. the minuses to hit and damage) The blade can take damaged and be destroyed just like any other magical weapon. But it will function at it's full ability right up to the point where it's shattered.

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EvilPaladin wrote:
Sagotel wrote:
I don't think so. Fractions are usually rounded down unless the rules say otherwise. The description of Improved Spell Recall stipulates only that a minimum of 1 arcane pool point must be spent to use the feature.
I always just use the rule of thumb that rounding unless stated otherwise[through GM or rules] should be the least beneficial to the person who is rounding.
Core Rulebook wrote:
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.

Once in a while, it works to the player's advantage. Not often, mind you...

Shadow Lodge

Sagotel wrote:
EvilPaladin wrote:
Sagotel wrote:
I don't think so. Fractions are usually rounded down unless the rules say otherwise. The description of Improved Spell Recall stipulates only that a minimum of 1 arcane pool point must be spent to use the feature.
I always just use the rule of thumb that rounding unless stated otherwise[through GM or rules] should be the least beneficial to the person who is rounding.
Core Rulebook wrote:
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.
Once in a while, it works to the player's advantage. Not often, mind you...

Hmm, never saw that before. I just assumed it was stacked against players to increase the challenge. Interesting. Thanks for the Info!

Shadow Lodge

Sagotel wrote:


Core Rulebook wrote:
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.
Once in a while, it works to the player's advantage. Not often, mind you...

im glad you found that, i never knew it was a true rule. i know in 3.5 it was always the worst result for the player a s a rule.

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Lastoth wrote:

Having played a black blade, I'm not sure how a normal magus gets by with his cheap and insufficient WBL weapon. To me the black blade is obviously more powerful based on how much WBL you have to spend on other stuff since your offense is taken care of and your defense is mainly mirror image for the first part of your career.

My question is "why is the normal magus so terrible compared to black blade".

Uhmm, by not being weapon focused? The actual weapon contributes little to anything to the offense of a well built Magus.

This post here is the part I have the most trouble understanding. Pathfinder design is really simple, casters rule martials drool.
Magic has ALWAYS been more effective and powerful then melee at just about every point of the game. Magi highlight this more than any other class out there since they do magic and melee at the same time.

Ever since the class was introduced it has overwhelmingly been apparent that the class was designed as a new way to get a spell onto a target and any attempt to focus on anything but that reduces the effectiveness and power of the class. A blackblade reduces a Magi's magical ability (the degree is unimportant, any reduction is bad) by making them wait longer to get their built-in power ups.

Of all the existing optimized Magi builds, only one of them actually really uses the blade and even then it's only contributing about 10%-15% of the damage the build does. Everything else is strictly spells and arcana with the weapon only being used to clean up mooks to unimportant to waste spells on.


Black blades are freakin awesome after they have a few levels up. I have played a black blade in a wrath of the righteous and despite being down an arcana he rocked hard.

I don't see them as any more fighter-y than a normal magus.

The ability to save on the single most expensive item in the game DOES matter because it allows you to bump the rest of your Xmas tree a fair bit.

The really shine in tight camaigns. If money is not an issue, then not so much.

Shadow Lodge

STR Ranger wrote:

Black blades are freakin awesome after they have a few levels up. I have played a black blade in a wrath of the righteous and despite being down an arcana he rocked hard.

I don't see them as any more fighter-y than a normal magus.

The ability to save on the single most expensive item in the game DOES matter because it allows you to bump the rest of your Xmas tree a fair bit.

The really shine in tight camaigns. If money is not an issue, then not so much.

i agree with this post 100%, my one thing i would like to add is that if your gm chooses to, that bonus becomes a massive penalty. having an intelligent blade can be a hindrance.


I will give you that spell storing is an excellent ability for the Magus to have on a weapon. Easily the single best weapon ability, to be honest. However, I have known GM's to ban it because it is one of the very few things left that breaks spell action economy. This doesn't really effect this discussion because thats a house rule, but Magus players might want to ask their Gm's in advance.

Cute exploit thats difficult to pull off, but truly ludicrous: because spell storing is a free action and because the text on the ability says "Anytime the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature..." you can use spellstrike to get another free attack with any weapon currently being wielded... and if you more than one arm, you can have another weapon that is also spell storing make the attack, triggering another hit. Etc.

Incredibly cheesy? Yup! Could there be a rules error? Possibly, I just thought of this now. But still, its amusing to think of a Magus doing their regular routine, plus 2 or even 3 stored spells. Truly ludicrous damage.


This doesn't work because with spell storing it is the weapon that casts the spell, not the player. The weapon doesn't have class levels and does not and cannot make use of your spell strike ability. Therefore its only the one single cast made by the spell storing weapon. You don't even get to add the weapons damage to this spell. Technically speaking, the weapon, being a caster of the spell and having no feats or abilities to prevent it, would actually draw an AoO for doing this, except for the fact that the casting is a free action and free actions normally do not provoke.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Third, You are giving up all arcana for half your characters career. No arcana for that long is excessive.

Saying "You are giving up all arcana for half your characters career" is flat out wrong and also misleading. Neither character has any arcana for levels 1 and 2. The Bladebound has 1 less from 3-5, barring feat investment. So yes, for 3 levels, or 1/4, of the 1-12 career you don't have arcana while a regular magus would. However, these levels are when arcana are least useful. A magus has the lowest int bonus here, the lowest number of pool points (which compete with spell recall!!), and the lowest funds for goodies like wands for wand wielder (a very good arcana, to be fair). And an arcana is a feat, so at 7th level the difference can be completely erased.

Quote:


These are the mechanical problems with using this archetype, the rest of the issues are with playstyle. I have always said that a Magus is a CASTER who can fight not a fighter who casts. This archetype pushes you towards being more of a fighter then caster by emphasizing that aspect of the class and I find that seriously sub-optimal.

I fundamentally disagree with you here. The Magus is not a primary caster and should not be thought of a caster who fights, at least in my opinion. They have a reduced spell list and reduced spell progression, never getting past 6th level spells. In addition to the obvious this also gimps their metamagic use compared to full casters - while they can contest at touch range with critical spellstrikes, they are completely outclassed in ranged blasting by a full caster with only a feat or two (no need to do an opto-blaster build). In support role, while they have several good spells, they can't be summoners, won't have as high save DC's so won't be as good SoL shooters, and are missing many good control options.

I think the Magus' spells are still their best feature, but I also think they are best used to enhance the Magus' fighting abilities (and the rest of the group too, with some of the buffs). If the fighting abilities are sub-par from building too heavily as a caster, then the spells have to overcome that gap before anything else.

I also think its incorrect to think that a Magus' damage primarily comes from spells, at least for the PFS career. For the first several levels spell use will be rare and to be honest much better spent as defensive buffs unless you need to nova something. Even once the damage spells come online with some consistency (probably around 6th level) the weapon damage will be equal to or greater still than spell damage. I think the turning point is probably 11th level for spell damage passing the halfway mark consistently, and 15th level for a large lead thanks to spell perfection.

Consider for example at 10th level, when shocking grasp is at good effectiveness:

Shocking grasp: 10d6 = average 34, plus chance to 2x crit of 30%*(confirm probability). Hope the enemy isn't resistant or immune to electricity or up to a 2cd level slot with elemental spell.

Non-optimized sword damage potential: d6+15 (just power attack, a +4 belt, a +3 weapon, and pool enhancement) again with a 30%*(confirm probability). Note that with buffing from teammates this can climb quite a bit.

With Haste, a very realistic 10th level buff, the attack sequence will be something like 16/16/16/10. Arcana can make that vs touch or add +4 or 5 without problems. Or drop power attack for another 2. Or get a buff or flanking: basically I'm saying that hitting is good at this level.

In this scenario the Magus is doing equal or better damage with the weapon rather than the spell. At 11th Empower spell + improved spell recall + magical lineage gives a 15d6 shocking grasp for a 3rd level slot, which is conveniently 1 arcane point, so the balance tips. Elemental resistance is pretty common however, so even this isn't a sure thing.

Of course there are other options than shocking grasp, but its kind of the "go to" build so thats what I'm comparing.


Shimesen wrote:
This doesn't work because with spell storing it is the weapon that casts the spell, not the player. The weapon doesn't have class levels and does not and cannot make use of your spell strike ability. Therefore its only the one single cast made by the spell storing weapon. You don't even get to add the weapons damage to this spell. Technically speaking, the weapon, being a caster of the spell and having no feats or abilities to prevent it, would actually draw an AoO for doing this, except for the fact that the casting is a free action and free actions normally do not provoke.

Ahha! Thanks for the correction. I kind of thought I was missing something there, otherwise someone else would have found that earlier. :P


Thaago wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Third, You are giving up all arcana for half your characters career. No arcana for that long is excessive.

Saying "You are giving up all arcana for half your characters career" is flat out wrong and also misleading. Neither character has any arcana for levels 1 and 2. The Bladebound has 1 less from 3-5, barring feat investment. So yes, for 3 levels, or 1/4, of the 1-12 career you don't have arcana while a regular magus would. However, these levels are when arcana are least useful. A magus has the lowest int bonus here, the lowest number of pool points (which compete with spell recall!!), and the lowest funds for goodies like wands for wand wielder (a very good arcana, to be fair). And an arcana is a feat, so at 7th level the difference can be completely erased.

Quote:


These are the mechanical problems with using this archetype, the rest of the issues are with playstyle. I have always said that a Magus is a CASTER who can fight not a fighter who casts. This archetype pushes you towards being more of a fighter then caster by emphasizing that aspect of the class and I find that seriously sub-optimal.

I fundamentally disagree with you here. The Magus is not a primary caster and should not be thought of a caster who fights, at least in my opinion. They have a reduced spell list and reduced spell progression, never getting past 6th level spells. In addition to the obvious this also gimps their metamagic use compared to full casters - while they can contest at touch range with critical spellstrikes, they are completely outclassed in ranged blasting by a full caster with only a feat or two (no need to do an opto-blaster build). In support role, while they have several good spells, they can't be summoners, won't have as high save DC's so won't be as good SoL shooters, and are missing many good control options.

I think the Magus' spells are still their best feature, but I also think they are best used to enhance the Magus' fighting abilities...

The problem with your SG example at 10th pevel is any SG magus spamming that trick SHOULD have taken Magical Lineage and is using a 1st level slot for that Intensified SG. AND pearls to get it back. There is a HUGE difference between using a 1st or 2nd level slot.


Black blade has some perks but having seen one side to side with a fiend flayer wielding a fiend blade (with some pearls o power) they seemed weak.

Fiend flayer had a equivocal weapon to the black blade that like the spellblade could be boosted with arcane pool.

It auto got the axiomatic, anarchic and unholy boosts without an arcana (and can bypass evil DR with an arcana).

It was +1 from 1st level.

It had no physical presence (great for some subterfuge and rp) when not used.

No intelligence and attitude to get in the way by turning the PCs own personalitys annoying traits against them.

No blade that's wiser, a better advisor and friend and more charismatic (liked more by party) than its hired help/user!!


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
insaneogeddon wrote:

Black blade has some perks but having seen one side to side with a fiend flayer wielding a fiend blade (with some pearls o power) they seemed weak.

Fiend flayer had a equivocal weapon to the black blade that like the spellblade could be boosted with arcane pool.

It auto got the axiomatic, anarchic and unholy boosts without an arcana (and can bypass evil DR with an arcana).

It was +1 from 1st level.

It had no physical presence (great for some subterfuge and rp) when not used.

No intelligence and attitude to get in the way by turning the PCs own personalitys annoying traits against them.

No blade that's wiser, a better advisor and friend and more charismatic (liked more by party) than its hired help/user!!

Fiend Flayer is an interesting archetype. I am not keen on taking 2 points of natural healing only con damage every day (required to use the blade summoning) though. And it's tiefling-only so no bonus arcana (elf/half-elf racial favored class). But if I was to go tiefling it has great options and almost no downside


Elf is -2con anyway, use racial for +1 HP per level and tieflings can get +2 natural AC that further of sets.

Granted you have to be a filthy devil man ..or a racial heritaged human.


I play a blade bound Magus that is currently at 7th level. With the right selection of spells and feats it's been great fun to play.


insaneogeddon wrote:

Elf is -2con anyway, use racial for +1 HP per level and tieflings can get +2 natural AC that further of sets.

Granted you have to be a filthy devil man ..or a racial heritaged human.

Racial heritage is for humanoids.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Uhmm, by not being weapon focused? The actual weapon contributes little to anything to the offense of a well built Magus.

Unless You consider the fact that it delivers your spells on a hit, which means the weapon delivers 100% of your relevant damage and non BB wielders have a harder time hitting from what I've seen because while they are dumping tons of WBL into a weapon. Meanwhile, the BB user is dumping his wealth into peripheral items to enhance his abilities while holding a vastly superior weapon for free.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
This post here is the part I have the most trouble understanding. Pathfinder design is really simple, casters rule martials drool.

This is a straw man, not worth responding to, but I will identify it as a signal of a really weak point where the user feels obligated to justify his opinion with rhetoric instead of substance.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Ever since the class was introduced it has overwhelmingly been apparent that the class was designed as a new way to get a spell onto a target and any attempt to focus on anything but that reduces the effectiveness and power of the class.

Obviously we agree here

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
A blackblade reduces a Magi's magical ability (the degree is unimportant, any reduction is bad) by making them wait longer to get their built-in power ups.

OK, well since the black blade reaches bonuses far faster than any player with a standard weapon could, then how does this reduce his damage delivery? He's hitting more. Also his WBL is invested in stat items, pearls of power, and other items the standard magus can't afford cause he's saving for a +3 weapon when the BB had +3 two levels ago.

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Of all the existing optimized Magi builds, only one of them actually really uses the blade and even then it's only contributing about 10%-15% of the damage the build does. Everything else is strictly spells and arcana with the weapon only being used to clean up mooks to unimportant to waste spells on.

You and I play a vastly different game, I see. In my game my black blade delivers all my spells. It hits a lot and saves me a boatload of cash I can invest elsewhere. It's also delivering free action intimidates (well, free to ME as the owner, still costs the blade an action) and assisting me on all my rolls. I can't really imagine a non BB magus being better.

I strongly encourage you to give BB a try before naysaying it.


I think the general gist of this thread can be summed up nicely. The power of this archetype is inversely proportional to your cash flow. So it is strong is low wealth situations (PFS, APs, some Home Games) and weak in other situations (most Home Games I have ever seen.) It makes sense, the main gist of the archetype is that you sell some class powers for an intelligent magic weapon.


I still disagree with that Gregory, but since I only play in APs I will say I can't comment with the same level of certainty.

I can make educated speculation with reasoning though. Even in a high cash campaign it just means you're getting more money diverted to other things. Unless you run a campaign where your WBL exceeds stuff you want minus the cost of your weapon the BB is always coming out ahead on items. There are things (like inherent bonus items) which are so expensive you can't really say you'll get them for certain on every character every time.


I think that way more because the disadvantage of the blade being intelligent becomes much more apparent in home games. Most GM's I know (myself included) simply can't resist the temptation to have the sword argue with the character at inappropriate times. I think that in high wealth games the advantage is less not gone. The same logic applies to crafting feats, if you are cash strapped and somehow can use them without the GM reducing your wealth by fiat, they are awesome. If you have access to all the magic items you need they are still good, but less so compared to the feats you didn't take.


I wouldn't say the power decreases as an inverse relationship; its rate of growth just decreases significantly with higher amounts of wealth. Now, if the comparison was this rate of growth, or possibly magus power/average character power (whatever that is) plotted against wealth by level, then there could be an inverse relationship.

Edit to below: Ah, that'd be Bladebound power/average of (Pure Magus + any archetype combinations without Bladebound) against WBL, then. Not gonna work that one out, but your observations make sense in that regard.


I may be messing up my mathematics, I am assuming that every level gained in every archetype of every class increases your power. The only thing I was comparing it to was other Magi without the archetype. I was trying to say it is stronger than other Magi in a low wealth setting and weaker than other Magi in a high wealth setting.

Lantern Lodge

Just to throw this out there:

Just because you get a free weapon doesn't mean you can't buy any other weapons... Want to have an undead bane, or an anchoring weapon? Go for it. Even spell storing is just an unsheathe away.

But to be honest, weapons for Magus' in general are a joke. With your arcane pool and access to Greater Magic Weapon, it becomes really, really easy to hit the +10 bonus cap. At level 20, a magus can pick up a normal weapon and turn it into a +10 weapon.

I've always personally favored the martial side of the magus. EK seems like the more wizard oriented class. Sure save or die spells and hexes are devastating, they just aren't fun for me.


STR Ranger wrote:
The problem with your SG example at 10th pevel is any SG magus spamming that trick SHOULD have taken Magical Lineage and is using a 1st level slot for that Intensified SG. AND pearls to get it back. There is a HUGE difference between using a 1st or 2nd level slot.

I completely agree with you, but I think you may have misread - I mentioned second level spells if the target was electricity resistant and the Magus has to use Elemental Spell, which combined with Intensify and Magical Lineage puts the total level at 2.


Gregory Connolly wrote:
I think that way more because the disadvantage of the blade being intelligent becomes much more apparent in home games. Most GM's I know (myself included) simply can't resist the temptation to have the sword argue with the character at inappropriate times. I think that in high wealth games the advantage is less not gone. The same logic applies to crafting feats, if you are cash strapped and somehow can use them without the GM reducing your wealth by fiat, they are awesome. If you have access to all the magic items you need they are still good, but less so compared to the feats you didn't take.

Yes, my gaming group is a bunch of good friends. When I took my black blade my GM loved the concept and never had it counter me (though did suggest I become more violent to enemy arcane casters due to that being my blades focus).

I think you've hit on the correct answer (to me). The black blade is as good or bad as the GM wants it to be, this could mean keeping away from it entirely.


insaneogeddon wrote:

Black blade has some perks but having seen one side to side with a fiend flayer wielding a fiend blade (with some pearls o power) they seemed weak.

Fiend flayer had a equivocal weapon to the black blade that like the spellblade could be boosted with arcane pool.

It auto got the axiomatic, anarchic and unholy boosts without an arcana (and can bypass evil DR with an arcana).

It was +1 from 1st level.

It had no physical presence (great for some subterfuge and rp) when not used.

No intelligence and attitude to get in the way by turning the PCs own personalitys annoying traits against them.

No blade that's wiser, a better advisor and friend and more charismatic (liked more by party) than its hired help/user!!

Question: How did the Fiend Flayer manage their arcane pool? Calling the blade costs 2 points and enhancing another... 3 points is a lot to be relying on every fight, and it only lasts a minute. It is a really cool ability, but it seems too costly for my tastes.


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I am playing BB magus in both PFS and a home brew game at the moment and having a blast.

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Thaago wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

Third, You are giving up all arcana for half your characters career. No arcana for that long is excessive.

Saying "You are giving up all arcana for half your characters career" is flat out wrong and also misleading. Neither character has any arcana for levels 1 and 2. The Bladebound has 1 less from 3-5, barring feat investment. So yes, for 3 levels, or 1/4, of the 1-12 career you don't have arcana while a regular magus would. However, these levels are when arcana are least useful. A magus has the lowest int bonus here, the lowest number of pool points (which compete with spell recall!!), and the lowest funds for goodies like wands for wand wielder (a very good arcana, to be fair). And an arcana is a feat, so at 7th level the difference can be completely erased.

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These are the mechanical problems with using this archetype, the rest of the issues are with playstyle. I have always said that a Magus is a CASTER who can fight not a fighter who casts. This archetype pushes you towards being more of a fighter then caster by emphasizing that aspect of the class and I find that seriously sub-optimal.

I fundamentally disagree with you here. The Magus is not a primary caster and should not be thought of a caster who fights, at least in my opinion. They have a reduced spell list and reduced spell progression, never getting past 6th level spells. In addition to the obvious this also gimps their metamagic use compared to full casters - while they can contest at touch range with critical spellstrikes, they are completely outclassed in ranged blasting by a full caster with only a feat or two (no need to do an opto-blaster build). In support role, while they have several good spells, they can't be summoners, won't have as high save DC's so won't be as good SoL shooters, and are missing many good control options.

I think the Magus' spells are still their best feature, but I also think they are best used to enhance the Magus' fighting abilities (and the rest of the group too, with some of the buffs). If the fighting abilities are sub-par from building too heavily as a caster, then the spells have to overcome that gap before anything else.

I also think its incorrect to think that a Magus' damage primarily comes from spells, at least for the PFS career. For the first several levels spell use will be rare and to be honest much better spent as defensive buffs unless you need to nova something. Even once the damage spells come online with some consistency (probably around 6th level) the weapon damage will be equal to or greater still than spell damage. I think the turning point is probably 11th level for spell damage passing the halfway mark consistently, and 15th level for a large lead thanks to spell perfection.

Consider for example at 10th level, when shocking grasp is at good effectiveness:

Shocking grasp: 10d6 = average 34, plus chance to 2x crit of 30%*(confirm probability). Hope the enemy isn't resistant or immune to electricity or up to a 2cd level slot with elemental spell.

Non-optimized sword damage potential: d6+15 (just power attack, a +4 belt, a +3 weapon, and pool enhancement) again with a 30%*(confirm probability). Note that with buffing from teammates this can climb quite a bit.

With Haste, a very realistic 10th level buff, the attack sequence will be something like 16/16/16/10. Arcana can make that vs touch or add +4 or 5 without problems. Or drop power attack for another 2. Or get a buff or flanking: basically I'm saying that hitting is good at this level.

In this scenario the Magus is doing equal or better damage with the weapon rather than the spell. At 11th Empower spell + improved spell recall + magical lineage gives a 15d6 shocking grasp for a 3rd level slot, which is conveniently 1 arcane point, so the balance tips. Elemental resistance is pretty common however, so even this isn't a sure thing.

Of course there are other options than shocking grasp, but its kind of the "go to" build so thats what I'm comparing.

A). Since the OP was asking about a PFS character with a level cap of 12 delaying all Arcana until 6th level IS half the characters career. I feel justified in that statement.

B). The Magus IS a primary caster, just not a 9 spell level class. Everything about the base Magus is designed around it's spellcasting & magical abilities, the martial abilities are strictly secondary to that.
A Gish (which is all the magus is) is just a specialized caster who uses their spells in melee range to eliminate their target(s). It sacrifices the high end reality bending powers of the usual wizard for superior direct damage dealing ability. Trying to match the nova output from the spellcasting with the blade is doomed to failure.

Lets look at your example and see how it really goes (Assuming 10th level, dervish dancing, power attacking Black Blade with a 18 starting Dex since that's typical and you didn't really lay out the full build)
And we'll also assume we start the fight in melee range so you can full attack on the first round.

At this level the average target AC to hit is usually between 26-30 for a suitable challenge for a 10th level party. With that attack bonus your BB will have less then a 50% chance of hitting on his first 3 attacks and the 4th needs to crit just to hit. Hitting is NOT easy at this level massively reducing the damage output from this character.
And if you are planning to use an arcana to increase that hit chance well then no pool bonus for you this round (only 1 swift per round). Per most of the DPR calculators put this build at an average of around 100 pts of damage a round.

An example spell based caster will focus on something like Frostbite instead and easily double the damage output (an extra ((1D6+level)*1.5) BEFORE factoring in regular attacks) and with his spell-storing weapon he adds an additional an extra 60 pts (intensified maximized Shocking grasped stored in it) and throwing Natural Attack build on it kicks it up an additional 60-90 pts a round (AoMF-Spell-Storing).
On top of that since he picked up Spell-Scars and accurate strikes and doesn't need to burn an arcane point to enhance his weapon on the first round he instead uses that action to go accurate strikes and make sure all of his attacks hit instead of missing with half of them like the BB does.
He can EASILY destroy his target in the first round while the BB is still getting ready and manage to have enough spells available/stored to be able to do this for every fight, every day. The BlackBlade traded away this power to save a little cash at the early part of the game.

Everything the martial focused Magi can do the Caster focused one can do faster, cheaper and better.
Now I will say that calling the BlackBlade a terrible archetype may be overstating it. A more accurate statement would be that the BB is a significantly sub-optimal choice. Not TERRIBLE but really less then ideal use of resources.

Dark Archive

Lastoth wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Uhmm, by not being weapon focused? The actual weapon contributes little to anything to the offense of a well built Magus.

Unless You consider the fact that it delivers your spells on a hit, which means the weapon delivers 100% of your relevant damage and non BB wielders have a harder time hitting from what I've seen because while they are dumping tons of WBL into a weapon. Meanwhile, the BB user is dumping his wealth into peripheral items to enhance his abilities while holding a vastly superior weapon for free.

The weapon is there to deliver the spell that's it and there are FAR more efficient ways to make sure you hit then just dumping cash ont a stick of pig iron. The smart Magi dump their resources into themselves to maximize their flexibility and THAT lets them hit.

Target has a High AC then you drop two arcana to target his touch AC instead.
High Touch AC? then drop a high DC Grease or Mudball spell to drop that to nothing and wail on them then.
Immune to one or more of your energy damage types? Use the one of the feats you didn't burn on martial feats to change the energy type to something that works.

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Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
A blackblade reduces a Magi's magical ability (the degree is unimportant, any reduction is bad) by making them wait longer to get their built-in power ups.
OK, well since the black blade reaches bonuses far faster than any player with a standard weapon could, then how does this reduce his damage delivery? He's hitting more. Also his WBL is invested in stat items, pearls of power, and other items the standard magus can't afford cause he's saving for a +3 weapon when the BB had +3 two levels ago.

This is where we differ in opinion, I don't care about what bonus is on the weapon since (properly built) a Magus should hit on everything but a natural 1. A weapon focused Magi is stuck is at the will of the dice to see if he succeeds at hitting his target which takes control of the situation out of his hands.

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Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Of all the existing optimized Magi builds, only one of them actually really uses the blade and even then it's only contributing about 10%-15% of the damage the build does. Everything else is strictly spells and arcana with the weapon only being used to clean up mooks to unimportant to waste spells on.

You and I play a vastly different game, I see. In my game my black blade delivers all my spells. It hits a lot and saves me a boatload of cash I can invest elsewhere. It's also delivering free action intimidates (well, free to ME as the owner, still costs the blade an action) and assisting me on all my rolls. I can't really imagine a non BB magus being better.

I strongly encourage you to give BB a try before naysaying it.

I'm sure we are playing different games, mine is a bit more rules focused I'd say.

How is your blade delivering an intimidate for you? Black Blades are only telepathic with it's wielder and doesn't have the speech ability so it can't actually communicate with anyone else. It's int and language ability allows it to understand what it senses but since Speech is a special ability and cost on the intelligent item chart and not on the BB list of abilities it can't speak or communicate with anyone but it's wielder. Also since it's not a familiar and cannot be independently enchanted/modified it can't use any other items or have the speech ability granted to it.

As for hitting and delivering spells as I said earlier, if you are concerned about hitting a target there are far better ways to make sure ALL your attacks hit then just throwing cash at your to hit bonus.
Focusing on the weapon as much as the BB does actually makes it harder to succeed at your goal then focusing on your ther abilities.

@FrodoOf9Fingers, Actually it does usually mean not having other weapons. Intelligent items (weapons especially) have listed as one of their usual actions as soon as they gain dominance to force the player to divest themselves of items it doesn't want them to have, and weapons have always been the jealous type and will constantly try to force their wielder to throw all other weapons away.
17th level black blades ALWAYS believes itself better then the character and CONSTANTLY fights for dominance/obedience from it's wielder.

Intelligent Items wrote:
When an item has an Ego of its own, it has a will of its own. The item is absolutely true to its alignment. If the character who possesses the item is not true to that alignment's goals or the item's special purpose, personality conflict—item against character—results. Similarly, any item with an Ego score of 20 or higher always considers itself superior to any character, and a personality conflict results if the possessor does not always agree with the item.

Making a DC20 will check every day and every time my pig sticker wants it's own way doesn't seem very fun to me.


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A). Since the OP was asking about a PFS character with a level cap of 12 delaying all Arcana until 6th level IS half the characters career. I feel justified in that statement.

Its a misleading statement because the difference is only 3 levels, while you are making it out to be 6. I agree that it is a cost to the archetype. I don't think its a big deal.

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rest

I will accept it if you think of the class as a caster - I think we simply have a difference of terminology. To me it seems like the build you offered is not a caster build, so whatever. For me it is not a caster because of the reasons before. *shrug*

For the rest: you've gotten a bunch of stuff wrong here. First of all, you cannot store a maximized intensified shocking grasp in a weapon - not until level 15 and spell perfection, and even that is iffy. Intensified, sure - with the trait its level 3 so you can have a 15d6 ready to go. I'm not contesting that its a great weapon ability - it is easily the best for a Magus. Second, the pool bonus lasts for a full minute, so it can be activated in a surprise round or prep round when moving into position/casting a buff. In practice it is up all fight and you can still use your swifts for other things, like arcane accuracy or accurate strike.

Its completely inconsistent to first say 'your build will only hit 50% of the time, so weapon damage sucks' and then say 'but my Magus hits everything on a 1, even when I dump the weapon enhancement.' What did you do that I can't that makes yours hit on a 1? Accurate Strike for touch AC? True strike? A Bladebound can do whatever it is you are claiming to do just as well. And for enemies that aren't huge on AC, will spend less resources to do so. I didn't put forward a specific build on purpose - I put forward a bog standard Magus with 1 feat used. It has massive room for improvement.

How is using frostbite make your Magus spell based? Its just a build choice - go with shocking grasp for straight damage or frostbite for more control/endurance (it also comes with a whole slew of downsides that you've forgotten to mention). You can do the exact same setup with a Bladebound, no problem. In fact, because the sword will hit more often, its better.

You are also conveniently forgetting: Each hit with frostbite also does weapon damage, so that while you are doing (d6+level)*(1.5 if using a 3/4th level spell) of non-lethal damage, you are also doing d6+15 weapon damage (probably more, again I'm only using 1 feat here). I'm not saying spells are bad - they are great and a large source of the Magus' power! I'm just saying that ignoring your weapon output is nonsensical.

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Immune to one or more of your energy damage types? Use the one of the feats you didn't burn on martial feats to change the energy type to something that works.

Why the heck do you think we spent all feats on martial feats? I forgot to see in the description of Bladebound: "Upon reaching 3rd level and taking this Archetype, make sure to use a really crappy straw man build. No cheating now!"

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...The BlackBlade traded away this power to save a little cash at the early part of the game...

Every single thing you said before can be done by a Bladebound. Yes you are down one arcana! Or, after 7th, one feat! Maybe with a super-extra-tight build you can't spare a single feat, but I really doubt it.

Dark Archive

Thaago wrote:
Quote:
A). Since the OP was asking about a PFS character with a level cap of 12 delaying all Arcana until 6th level IS half the characters career. I feel justified in that statement.

Its a misleading statement because the difference is only 3 levels, while you are making it out to be 6. I agree that it is a cost to the archetype. I don't think its a big deal.

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rest

I will accept it if you think of the class as a caster - I think we simply have a difference of terminology. To me it seems like the build you offered is not a caster build, so whatever. For me it is not a caster because of the reasons before. *shrug*

For the rest: you've gotten a bunch of stuff wrong here. First of all, you cannot store a maximized intensified shocking grasp in a weapon - not until level 15 and spell perfection, and even that is iffy. Intensified, sure - with the trait its level 3 so you can have a 15d6 ready to go. I'm not contesting that its a great weapon ability - it is easily the best for a Magus. Second, the pool bonus lasts for a full minute, so it can be activated in a surprise round or prep round when moving into position/casting a buff. In practice it is up all fight and you can still use your swifts for other things, like arcane accuracy or accurate strike.

Its completely inconsistent to first say 'your build will only hit 50% of the time, so weapon damage sucks' and then say 'but my Magus hits everything on a 1, even when I dump the weapon enhancement.' What did you do that I can't that makes yours hit on a 1? Accurate Strike for touch AC? True strike? A Bladebound can do whatever it is you are claiming to do just as well. And for enemies that aren't huge on AC, will spend less resources to do so. I didn't put forward a specific build on purpose - I put forward a bog standard Magus with 1 feat used. It has massive room for improvement.

How is using frostbite make your Magus spell based? Its just a build choice - go with shocking grasp for straight damage or frostbite for...

A). My only comment was gone bladebound is 6 levels before you get a arcana which is half the career of a PFS character. Nothing more or less, There is nothing misleading about that. Saying it's only 3 levels is what's misleading.

B). I posted a Caster build and only listed out the damage and effects from the spells, the weapon itself was inconsequential (I honestly never use the weapon and focus on doing touch attacks with prehensile hair which automatically hit touch AC).
As for your mis-understanding of how spell-storing works that is easily resolved. Unlike scrolls and wands when you load a spell into a spellstoring item when you cast a spell into a spell-storing item it goes directly from your the casters memory into the item exactly as it was prepped by the caster. THIS lets you pre-load all a casters hard hitting spells with the benefit of any metamagic rods, 1x day arcana or consumables at once and release them all at one time.
Only the RING of spell-storing restricts what you can put on a spell before storing it, weapons do not. Simply using the resources we didn't spend on the weapon (which is the point of the caster build) on better magic boosting items (Meta-magic rods & gems, feats on arcana instead of power attack weapon focus, etc) we masively increase the damage the Magus can put out leaving the weapon in the dust.

C). Iterative attacks are always on a diminishing scale where only the first (or second if you spend significant resources) or likely to hit, every attack after that is less and less likely to connect. Claiming a 50% hit rate on a 3/4bab class while power attacking and 2 weapon fighting at this level of play is not a stretch. I would actually say it's a generous estimate.

D). As for taking the time to pre-buff before attacking that was simply being nice and giving the weapon-focused character a leg up by not pre-buffing the caster one first. If you want to give a single round to buff first then the caster one jumps FAR ahead. The caster would spend that first action going monstrous physique to get 5-7 natural attacks and fly/swim/burrow activating his hasted assault arcana while having his familiar hi him with a charge from its wand of whatever and moving into position with the following round unleashing 9-12 frostbite/chill touch/etc powered full bab attacks every round. Natural attacks are ALL at full bab +to hit bonus which makes them superior to weapon based attacks the higher the level of play and the tougher the enemy.

E). You are the one who brought up energy immunity not I. I simply addressed it since you mentioned it.

F). Finally, unlike your BB build a non-BB build magus can easily run with the frostbite or shocking grasp build and still drop 3+ shocking grasp spells each round, the BB is always going to be at least 1 spell behind. At high levels that's 90+ points of damage per round which is no laughing matter at this point.

The Black Blade is a nice idea, at low levels but as you go up it just gets less and less worth it. The basic design I just put up used exactly one feat (improved familiar) same as yours but gets so much more out of it.
As for the BB being able to do all of this I never said it couldn't. I specifically said it could, just that the non-BB does it faster, easier and better. Read it again.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
A). My only comment was gone bladebound is 6 levels before you get a arcana which is half the career of a PFS character. Nothing more or less, There is nothing misleading about that. Saying it's only 3 levels is what's misleading.

Since you can't get an arcana before third, it's really a choice of half vs a quarter of the career.

I won't say that a Bladebound magus is better.. than a straight magus, they're simply two valid roads towards the same destination. Being different is good. I do think that you're misleading yourself in downplaying the magus's martial aspects.


My understanding on spell storing is completely correct: you are breaking the rules. See: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kty3?Spell-Storing-Metamagic-Rods

In short:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This does not work.

There is an ambiguity in the language of the spell storing property here that is causing a bit of confusion. The storage process for adding a spell to a spell storing weapon is a special action that is similar, although not the same as casting a spell. The issue here is that the rod applies to a spell as it is being cast, which this is not quite the same.

In the end, this is an issue for your GM to decide, but since I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to issues such as these, I am going to say that this does not work. A spell storing weapon holds a spell of up to 3rd level. A metamagic rod cannot be used during the storage process (although I would probably allow it during the usages of the stored spell... )

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Quote:
...the weapon itself was inconsequential...

If you think this is true for all Magus' then I'm sorry to say you've gimped yourself. I just posted an easy easy example of the weapon doing more damage: you countered one where the weapon was doing ~40% damage. I'll accept that, but 40% of total damage is not at all inconsequential.

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Simply using the resources we didn't spend on the weapon (which is the point of the caster build)...

Oooooh! Is that what you meant by a caster build? Not spending any money on your weapon? I see. If only there was an archetype that let you do that and still have a kickass magic weapon!

Ok, ok, that was uncalled for. But in all seriousness your argument previously was that we are trading arcane awesomeness for a little bit of cash. Now you are saying that that same bit of cash is a big part of what makes the arcane awesomeness.

The feats are a different matter - if you feel you can survive the first 6 levels without combat feats, then go for it. My build only has power attack and weapon focus for combat feats until level 9, when I pick up toughness. Personally I look at that and wonder how you are going to hit and do damage at those levels.

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C). Iterative attacks are always on a diminishing scale where only the first (or second if you spend significant resources) or likely to hit, every attack after that is less and less likely to connect. Claiming a 50% hit rate on a 3/4bab class while power attacking and 2 weapon fighting at this level of play is not a stretch. I would actually say it's a generous estimate.

But even at 12 level a Magus only has one attack at lower than full. The other ones come from haste (cast by someone else most likely) and spell combat. And I call bull on 50% hit rate being generous! The Magus has plenty of abilities to boost its hits when against a tough foe, and thats even without other classes buffing it.

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D). As for taking the time to pre-buff before attacking that was simply being nice and giving the weapon-focused character a leg up by not pre-buffing the caster one first. If you want to give a single round to buff first then the caster one jumps FAR ahead. The caster would spend that first action going monstrous physique to get 5-7 natural attacks and fly/swim/burrow activating his hasted assault arcana while having his familiar hi him with a charge from its wand of whatever and moving into position with the following round unleashing 9-12 frostbite/chill touch/etc powered full bab attacks every round. Natural attacks are ALL at full bab +to hit bonus which makes them superior to weapon based attacks the higher the level of play and the tougher the enemy.

Well, this would be a nice combo to drop a few times day at level 10, but it unfortunately doesn't work. Chill touch and frostbite have weird target information in their stat blocks, but its basically this: the caster can make the touch attacks. If your familiar cast it from a wand on you, it would just whack you with a touch attack :P. Perhaps this is a FAQ'd item or something and I am wrong, but I see this as a very clear thing.

And before you mention share spells, it only works from wizard (magus) to familiar, not familiar to magus.

Also, doesn't an amulet of mighty fists cost twice as much as a weapon? So even a +1 spell storing still runs 16,000.

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F). Finally, unlike your BB build a non-BB build magus can easily run with the frostbite or shocking grasp build and still drop 3+ shocking grasp spells each round, the BB is always going to be at least 1 spell behind. At high levels that's 90+ points of damage per round which is no laughing matter at this point.

Oh come now! Here you are pulling out a polymorphing natural attack combo that needs a familiar, and a wand, and an amulet of mighty fists! The BB can't have a spiked gauntlet to punch the enemy in the face on one of his attacks with spell storing on it?

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As for the BB being able to do all of this I never said it couldn't. I specifically said it could, just that the non-BB does it faster, easier and better. Read it again.

I remain unconvinced. You're faster, easier, and better natural attack build probably doesn't work at all, needs multiple expensive magic items, and only comes online at 10th level unless there is an 8 attack Monstrous Physique I monster I don't know about. For levels 1-5 the Magus has very few spells and benefits tremendously from the free magic weapon and combat oriented feats.

Dark Archive

Thaago wrote:

My understanding on spell storing is completely correct: you are breaking the rules. See: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2kty3?Spell-Storing-Metamagic-Rods

In short:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This does not work.

There is an ambiguity in the language of the spell storing property here that is causing a bit of confusion. The storage process for adding a spell to a spell storing weapon is a special action that is similar, although not the same as casting a spell. The issue here is that the rod applies to a spell as it is being cast, which this is not quite the same.

In the end, this is an issue for your GM to decide, but since I tend to err on the side of caution when it comes to issues such as these, I am going to say that this does not work. A spell storing weapon holds a spell of up to 3rd level. A metamagic rod cannot be used during the storage process (although I would probably allow it during the usages of the stored spell... )

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Quote:
...the weapon itself was inconsequential...

If you think this is true for all Magus' then I'm sorry to say you've gimped yourself. I just posted an easy easy example of the weapon doing more damage: you countered one where the weapon was doing ~40% damage. I'll accept that, but 40% of total damage is not at all inconsequential.

Quote:
Simply using the resources we didn't spend on the weapon (which is the point of the caster build)...

Oooooh! Is that what you meant by a caster build? Not spending any money on your weapon? I see. If only there was an archetype that let you do that and still have a kickass magic weapon!

Ok, ok, that was uncalled for. But in all seriousness your argument previously was that we are trading arcane awesomeness for a little bit of cash. Now you are saying that that same bit of cash is a big part of what makes the arcane awesomeness.

The feats are a different matter - if you feel you can survive the first 6 levels without combat feats, then go for it. My...

A). Your understanding is incorrect and your own quoted link shows you why (though I do appreciate you finding that link I've been looking for that forever). Here I'll break it down for you.

Shocking Grasp is a first level spell, add intensified to it and it's a 2nd level spell. A spell-storing weapon can store up to a third level spell so if I wanted to I could add another +1 metamagic to it and still be able to store it into a spellstoring item. After it's in there and we decide to use it on a hit we can invoke the rod then (or a gem if money's not an issue) and drop an intensified maximized/empowered spell from a spellstoring item.

B). I said resources not cash. This means feats, arcana, cash, etc devoted to magic prowess, cash is merely one of the many resources better spent here then on a weapon.

C). Exactly, spending those resources on boosting your chance to hit with that piece pig iron is resources you aren't spending on making your magic stronger, harder hitting and more effective. Increasing your chances to hit with that lump of metal makes you hit softer not harder. As for only having 1 attack at less then full bab is incorrect. All of your attacks are at less then full bab and require you to get help from others or burn an action to shore up your reduced hit chance. The caster focused magus doesn't need anything from anyone to shore up that weakness, he's self contained and has better action economy because of it.

D). You didn't read that one, I'm guessing you just skimmed it. The familiar uses a wand of whatever the magus wants (shield, blur, mage armor, silence, etc) and leaves the direct damage spells to the magus themselves. A familiar is a force multiplier, letting the caster drop more buffs and battlefield control spells each round. An entire second set of actions each round is a massive advantage the BB can never get.
Amulets of spellstoring cost 4000GP, it's cheaper to get the amulet then to get a weapon with this ability.

F). No, the BB can't. The spiked gauntlet is a weapon in his off hand which prevents him from using spellcombat. If you wish to give that up then I guess you can if you want to but there goes all the cash you saved from taking this archetype.
As for my build it cost a single feat for the improved familiar 4 grand for the amulet and 750GP for the wand and comes on-line at 4th level when you get 2nd level spells (Alter Self). It's faster, cheaper and easier then the BB build, has more attacks normally (At least 4 attacks every round from 4th level on) with a higher attack bonus and more spells per day.
Anyway, from 1st-5th all characters have very few spells and abilities, the caster magus is built to use those spells as efficiently as possible so he wastes as little as possible and defeats his opponent as quickly as he can. Swing a lump of iron is neither quick or efficient and is what's most likely to end a characters life.


Way of wall of text to read, but it seems that Mathwei ap Niall is understimating hte martial prowess of magus. At that point the magus becomes just a bad wizard.

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