| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Say you're fighting a barghest who is under the effects of the blink spell. Is it possible to ready an action to attack it while it is material, thereby reducing the miss chance?
My understanding of blink is that you're basically flickering in and out at a very fast rate. The spell also states it occurs at random, rather than set strobe rates.
I'd say no.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My understanding of blink is that you're basically flickering in and out at a very fast rate.
I thought that too at first, but then I re-read the spell:
While blinking, you can step through (but not see through) solid objects. For each 5 feet of solid material you walk through, there is a 50% chance that you become material. If this occurs, you are shunted off to the nearest open space and take 1d6 points of damage per 5 feet so traveled.
The first line of the spell does say "quickly", but we don't know how quickly; but apparently, it's theoretically possible to walk through several feet of solid matter before shifting back to the material plane, and it says you spend approximately equal amounts of time in the material and ethereal planes, so...
Well, in any case, the answer to the question is "the rules don't cover it directly", so you default to "ask the GM". I might let it reduce the miss chance to some degree, others might not.
The problem is that you never have a reason not to ready the action, then. Walk up to the barghest and, instead of using a standard action to attack, just say you're using a readied action. You'd attack almost immediately since it is flickering reasonably fast. When would you not do it this way?
Speaking of flicker rate. A normal medium creature can double move for 60 feet in a full six second turn, which is 10 feat a second. So if there's a 50% chance you'll go corporeal during a 5 foot movement (0.5 seconds of movement) then you're almost certainly going to transition states a few times in a given turn and also that it is an unpredictable amount of time between transitions.
how many angels can ready actions on the head of a pin
The problem is that you never have a reason not to ready the action, then. Walk up to the barghest and, instead of using a standard action to attack, just say you're using a readied action. You'd attack almost immediately since it is flickering reasonably fast. When would you not do it this way?
Speaking of flicker rate. A normal medium creature can double move for 60 feet in a full six second turn, which is 10 feat a second. So if there's a 50% chance you'll go corporeal during a 5 foot movement (0.5 seconds of movement) then you're almost certainly going to transition states a few times in a given turn and also that it is an unpredictable amount of time between transitions.
There's plenty of reasons to NOT do this, namely when making a full attack. A full attack well may have better chances of getting a hit in then a single attack.
I always imagined blink to be similar to how the sorcerers in Gauntlet continuously disappear and reappear. I don't think I'd allow a readied action in order to negate or reduce the miss chance. If you could thwart the spell by just simply readying an action, what would be the point of casting the spell in the first place?
No because the blinking is "random".
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I think it'd be fair to ready to attack when the subject of blink does and so reduce your miss rate (and roll!) to his - 20%. If he's solid when attacking/casting (i.e. rolls 1-4 under modulus 5 on whatever die), his attack makes it through, but yours does as well because he's solid both for attacking and defending purposes.
Of course, this is very house-ruley. I think it's a reasonable interpretation of the in-universe implications of the subject's own miss rate, but it isn't RAW.
If you can do it so can they. If you are able to ready an action to negate or reduce the miss chance against them, they should be able to ready an action to negate their miss chance against you.
It's not readying to lower miss chance. It's readying to equalize miss chances. If Alice is the subject of the blink, she has a 20% miss chance no matter what Bob is doing and whether or not she's readying a synchronized attack, because the miss chance is based on whether /she/ is material or ethereal. If we allow (big if, but I would) that the attacks are properly simultaneous, then either Alice is material when she strikes, and so Bob hits (assuming he makes AC) and Alice hits Bob (assuming the same), or Alice's attack passes through Bob harmlessly but so does Bob's through Alice.
Again, not RAW, but I think it's a reasonable allowance. I don't see this as being too overpowered a counter. You're readying an action each round for the ability to hit whenever your opponent would, but only for one attack each round.
One problem is that you can't see when the creature is Material. I mean that's why it says
If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
So if you can see invisible you are able to time your strikes better, but it still might not work.
Would Ghost Touch weapons work or is incorporeal different then Ethereal?
One problem is that you can't see when the creature is Material. I mean that's why it says
If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
So if you can see invisible you are able to time your strikes better, but it still might not work.
Would Ghost Touch weapons work or is incorporeal different then Ethereal?
I would rule no. Ethereal is different than incorporeal. It isn't called out as plainly as it was in 3.5 though. It looks like some text was cut out when they copied the etherealness special ability from 3.5.
does the barghest have pockets?
By the way Ravingdork I do appreciate that you bring these rule disputes to the forums so we can figure them out without clogging up the game.
One problem is that you can't see when the creature is Material. I mean that's why it says
If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
So if you can see invisible you are able to time your strikes better, but it still might not work.
Would Ghost Touch weapons work or is incorporeal different then Ethereal?
Blinking is not the same as invisibility. While it is material, you can see it AND hurt it just fine. When it is not material, you need a means of (A) seeing it and (B) striking it.
It is possible to try and hit it with, say, a ray of force, but you still need to have a target. Alternatively, you might be able to see it with see invisibility, but not be able to effectively hurt it (since it is ethereal).
Say you're fighting a barghest who is under the effects of the blink spell. Is it possible to ready an action to attack it while it is material, thereby reducing the miss chance?
Sounds like someone's group just encountered
To answer the question I would say no the spell Blink is pretty specific about how the miss chances work. The creature can't ready an attack to ensure it hits while solid to avoid its 20% miss chance so I don't think that readying should work to evade your 50%.
I still haven't heard a logical reason why. And "random" isn't one. You can ready an action to attack a person as he comes through a doorway even though you don't know precisely when that may occur (in a sense, being random).
You ready the action to attack. He blinks back for .25 of a second this time instead of 2 seconds. Luck just wasn't on your side this time as he blinked away too fast for you to actually connect with your attack. That's the way randomness works sometimes. Better luck next time.
You ready the action to attack. He blinks back for .25 of a second this time instead of 2 seconds. Luck just wasn't on your side this time as he blinked away too fast for you to actually connect with your attack. That's the way randomness works sometimes. Better luck next time.
So where are the mechanics to back up the fluff? This is a rules forum. I'm looking for RAW support.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You ready the action to attack. He blinks back for .25 of a second this time instead of 2 seconds. Luck just wasn't on your side this time as he blinked away too fast for you to actually connect with your attack. That's the way randomness works sometimes. Better luck next time.So where are the mechanics to back up the fluff? This is a rules forum. I'm looking for RAW support.
Where's the RAW that says you can? The rules tend to tell you when you can do something. You can't just assume that you can do everything that rules don't say you can't.
I still haven't heard a logical reason why. And "random" isn't one. You can ready an action to attack a person as he comes through a doorway even though you don't know precisely when that may occur (in a sense, being random).
I wouldn't say that's an equivalent example though. You can always see a blinking target, it just isn't always corporeal. You're not waiting for it to be visible, you're waiting for it to be fully on this plane. It's much more of a guess than "I wait until I see something, then swing". IMO, being able to hold an action to successfully strike a blinking person would be like closing one eye to throw off your depth perception enough to successfully strike a displaced target.
Barring any specific rule that says you can hold an action to eliminate/lower your miss chance, I would rule it can't be done.
The creature is either material, or it isn't. It doesn't go through three statest, material, invisible, immaterial, Simon.
The inability to see it is a consequence of it not being physically present in the same dimension. Only two states.
So if you can see it, you can hit it.
This is exactly the kind of things readied actions exist for. If you can't ready against this, then using the same logic proposed by some in this thread, you should be able to ready against most anything. I seriously doubt that, that was the intent of the designers.
The creature is either material, or it isn't. It doesn't go through three statest, material, invisible, immaterial, Simon.
The inability to see it is a consequence of it not being physically present in the same dimension. Only two states.
So if you can see it, you can hit it.
This is exactly the kind of things readied actions exist for. If you can't ready against this, then using the same logic proposed by some in this thread, you should be able to ready against most anything. I seriously doubt that, that was the intent of the designers.
OK. Say you're holding your action to strike someone who walks through a door. Where will you be aiming to strike? Will you swing low, high, mid-level? What if the target rolls through and you're aiming high? Or are you positing that you can hit the target at the exact split second it appears in the door no matter how it comes through?
Edit: OK, just had a better thought. The only way I can realistically see using a readied action to hit a blinking target would be to hold your weapon in the spot where the blinking target is/isn't. At best you would cause the damage a blinking target takes for being shunted to an open space.
OK. Say you're holding your action to strike someone who walks through a door. Where will you be aiming to strike? Will you swing low, high, mid-level? What if the target rolls through and you're aiming high? Or are you positing that you can hit the target at the exact split second it appears in the door no matter how it comes through?
I'm positing that I will get an attack roll against the target no matter how it comes through.
OK. Say you're holding your action to strike someone who walks through a door. Where will you be aiming to strike? Will you swing low, high, mid-level? What if the target rolls through and you're aiming high? Or are you positing that you can hit the target at the exact split second it appears in the door no matter how it comes through?I'm positing that I will get an attack roll against the target no matter how it comes through.
Well, I'm not seeing it. Without the existence of a specific rule one way or the other it basically falls back to rule 0, IMO. Good luck.
FAQed, I like this idea and see no reason to not allow it.
edit: and it works with vital strike ;)
I'm down with that. FAQ'd.
There's a 50% chance when moving through 5ft of a solid object that you go material.
If we assume a base move speed of 30ft and a double move, then it takes 6/12 = 0.5 seconds to move through a 5ft solid object. So every half a second there's a 50% chance that you change from immaterial to material, and since you remain in both an equal amount of time according to the spell, the chance of going from material to immaterial is equally high.
Now lets assume the base speed is higher, for example due to Expeditious Retreat or Haste. Now we move 120ft in a double move, which means there's a 50% chance that you change from immaterial to material, or the other way around, every 0.25 seconds.
RAW of course still isn't clear on whether it's possible to hit the target while it's material, and before it becomes immaterial. But considering the numbers above, your window of opportunity can be as small as 0.25 seconds. One attack in 0.25 seconds would mean that you could make 24 attacks per second. Besides an eidolon with lots of arms and weapons, I don't know of any class which can get anywhere near that many attacks. The internal will become even shorter if we add some class levels for monk/barbarian for fast movement.
Considering the window of opportunity, I'd maybe allow it with 20% miss chance instead of 50%, but not with 0%.
I'm down with that. FAQ'd.FAQed, I like this idea and see no reason to not allow it.
edit: and it works with vital strike ;)
You have to look past the window dressing explanations for what is happening to what the basic rules of the spell are.
Physical attacks against you have a 50% miss chance, and the Blind-Fight feat doesn't help opponents, since you're ethereal and not merely invisible. If the attack is capable of striking ethereal creatures, the miss chance is only 20% (for concealment).
If the attacker can see invisible creatures, the miss chance is also only 20%. (For an attacker who can both see and strike ethereal creatures, there is no miss chance.) Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
Those are hard and fast rules. The spell causes enemies to have a 50% miss chance unless certain conditions are met. The spell causes you to have a 20% miss chance with your own attacks. The explanation of why you have those miss chances is just window dressing for the core effect of giving enemies a 50% miss chance and some other effects.
So yes you can ready an attack when the creature becomes visible but physical attacks have a 50% miss chance, so your readied attack still has a 50% miss chance. The window dressing is that even though you readied an attack there is still a 50% chance he winks right out again before that attack lands.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
At any given moment of time, the creature may or may not be there. The word 'random' in the spell descriptions means you cannot plan for it. The 50% for every 5 feet of movement means it happens often (normal mediums creatures move 5 feet in half a second).
It isn't like aiming to attack someone coming through the door, because that is a directional state change. The target goes from one side to the other side of the door with a single discrete step. The target isn't jumping randomly between one side and the other of the door.
In this case, the target is literally moving from material to ethereal at random. Between the time it appears and the time your sword reaches it, there's a 50% chance it is ethereal. Same if you ready an action to attack as soon as it goes ethereal, you've got a 50% chance that it'll have popped right back to material by the time the weapon hits.
It is meant to be random to be unpredictable. If it was predictable, then a creature with blink could say "I ready an action to step through this wall as soon as I become ethereal, thus avoiding the 50% chance of becoming solid when I'm stepping 5 feet".
Also, when does the ability trigger? One assumes it happens immediately after you declare it. If the transition can happen between a 5 foot step and the next, then your readied action would happen within a second. Your initiative wouldn't change; at most you act on the next initiative count.
Other than full attack actions, when wouldn't someone fighting a blinking creature just ready their attack to completely negate the blink effect with no consequences to initiative or chance to miss?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The readied actions rules are built around events that occur at specific times in the initiative order. Blinking does not have a defined initiative count.
And, as above, there's no guarantee the target won't blink out immediately after appearing so it still wouldn't eliminate the miss chance.
I still haven't heard a logical reason why. And "random" isn't one. You can ready an action to attack a person as he comes through a doorway even though you don't know precisely when that may occur (in a sense, being random).
I would say you can. You ready an action to attack, he pops material, your readied action triggers. You attack, and roll your 50% miss chance.
Why still the 50% miss chance?
Because unlike the guy coming through the door... someone under the effects of blink may show up in the doorway and then disappear gain while your arrow is mid flight. They don't need duck, drop, or even react... they simply wink in and out of existence, at random times and in random intervals.
You could be mid-swing and they blink out. Trying to time something to hit a 50% when that 50% is totally random isn't going to work.
When you try to interact with a creature under the effects of blink, there is a 50% chance for that interaction to function. This is comparable to flipping a coin, right? 50% chance of heads or tails.
Say the target needs to be heads for you to interact. You ready an action for the coin flip to come up heads to make your attack. What is the next coin flip going to be? It is still 50%... just because you wait for the state you want doesn't mean the next state will be the same one.
Possibly worth noting:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.
There seems to be an intimation here that an action is required on the part of your opponent, to trigger your readied action. The change of plane from Ethereal to Material (and vice versa - you'd have to set your trigger to "when he blinks into the Ethereal Plane" because your action goes off before his) is not an action so it does not appear that this is a valid trigger for a readied action.
There could be an argument for readying an action for the Blinker's attack and getting only a 20% miss chance, the same as the Blinker.
My halfling in full plate spends about 1 second of a full round of movement to go through that wall, yielding 50% chance to materialize, whereas my lvl 20 human monk who's put every feat into fleet feet and run, with an active expeditious retreat and blink who runs through a wall will spend only about 0.0375 seconds per 5 foot square. If the chances of materializing for these two characters by RAW are the same for each 5 foot barrier, I will argue that blink is indeed going extremely fast, but is somehow sensitive to barriers or material things occupying the same space as the character.
However. Ready actions are on a completely different time scope. If you line up a line of npcs from here to the end of the universe, and get everyone to ready actions, you can break the speed of light many times over in terms of propagating information. Not only that, but the information will be at the end of the universe the split second before it was sent. This is a truly amazing power, and the 0.0375 seconds of blinking (or less for that blinking cloud giant monk) is still a lot more time than it takes to do a ready action.
Possibly worth noting:
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.There seems to be an intimation here that an action is required on the part of your opponent, to trigger your readied action. The change of plane from Ethereal to Material (and vice versa - you'd have to set your trigger to "when he blinks into the Ethereal Plane" because your action goes off before his) is not an action so it does not appear that this is a valid trigger for a readied action.
By only looking at that one line and looking at it out of context, yeah... you could make the call that only actions can trigger readied actions.
Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
But if you look at the entire section... you can see that you simply need to state the "condition" and whenever said condition exists, you can trigger your readied action immediately in response to that condition.
If your readied action's condition is that someone does something, ie performs an action... your readied action resolves before their action resolves.
Creature itself does not know when it will blink in or out. IMHO you can do it but it will lend no benefits as it can blink out again during your swing. Its not like readying an action will freeze time and let you stab it.
Likewise, your own attacks have a 20% miss chance, since you sometimes go ethereal just as you are about to strike.
Lots of interesting points. Nevertheless, I stand by my initial assertion that I think this could be done.
Then I'll ask how do you determine when the creature blinks back into focus? When does the readied action trigger? Does it happen before the next step in the initiative order (which is to say, between the end of your turn and the start of the next creature or player's turn)?
This is important because your initiative count is now whenever the trigger occurred.
Also does this mean a blinking creature can ready action to cast a spell or attack someone without their own 20% miss chance? Or step through a wall without the chance of being solid while inside it?
Then I'll ask how do you determine when the creature blinks back into focus?
By keeping an eye out.
When does the readied action trigger?
This is the most "gray" area I've had brought to my attention so far. I would think that it would either happen more or less right away, or just prior to the creature's turn.
Does it happen before the next step in the initiative order (which is to say, between the end of your turn and the start of the next creature or player's turn)?
That would be a fine way of handling it.
This is important because your initiative count is now whenever the trigger occurred.
Effectively, the initiative order hasn't changed.
Also does this mean a blinking creature can ready action to cast a spell or attack someone without their own 20% miss chance? Or step through a wall without the chance of being solid while inside it?
Absolutely.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
It's a miss chance, so use the rules for miss chance (with the exceptions mentioned in the spell description). :)
Since the flavor reason for the miss chance is timing, it's a reasonable house rule to allow a timing-based attack (=readied attack) to lessen the miss chance.
But RAW? Nope, clearly not.
It's a miss chance, so use the rules for miss chance (with the exceptions mentioned in the spell description). :)
Since the flavor reason for the miss chance is timing, it's a reasonable house rule to allow a timing-based attack (=readied attack) to lessen the miss chance.
But RAW? Nope, clearly not.
This. The rules don't support it. This is strictly GM fiat.