Am I missing something with these new characters in the party?


Advice


Recently we started up a new adventure. We finished up an AP and decided to take a short break while I figured which new AP to run, so we are just running adventures now, probably with the high level being somewhere between 5-9 (lots of leeway, just depends). We started at first level.

We decided we'd try non-core classes, and as I have very little experience with some of them (and no system mastery in regards to the non-core classes), it's been a little different.

The first is with the Gunslinger. It appears that she is going to be spending most of her funds at low levels on ammo? She chose Rapid Reload as a feat, but it would seem that she'd want Secret Stash instead. Even if she had Secret Stash, it appears that the cost of ammunition at lower levels is going to be exorbitant?

Is this normal? She basically spent all her money when we rolled on Ammo...and it still doesn't look like it will be enough overall.

Of course, the other side is that if we ever get up higher levels, the cost will be almost nothing compared to the cash they have, but right now, it seems to be the majority of her expenditures.

Is this how it's supposed to be, or am I missing something?

The next question I have is with the Summoner. At low levels it doesn't seem really as bad as some have made it out to be on these forums. The Oracle of Bones seems like they could be just as rough as the Eidolon with their entire zombie/skeleton thing going.

However, I'm totally confused as to how the Summoner's planning out their build.

We roll characters instead of pb, and she probably had the best rolls of any, but the placements confused me slightly.

STR 16
INT 12
WIS 8
DEX 15
CONS 18
CHA 17

She put her bonus into CONS, which is the first somewhat confusing thing for me. She chose Improved Initiative as the feat along with Resilient Eidolon.

She is using a crossbow and staff. She has the Eidolon's evolutions as a quadraped with a bit, 2 claws and Improved damage. Her spells are Rejuvenate Eidolon and Identify.

It appears she is focusing more on the Eidolon then summoning from what we played over the weekend, but why would she put her highest stat (and the bonus for human) in CONS? I'd think she'd want to put it into Charisma instead, which could have given her a 19 which could have been a 20 later on at level up, or sooner with the right item.

What am I missing here? I know from what she told me she wants her Eidolon to have a high survivability, but it seems that there are other ways then focusing on CONS. Am I wrong, or am I missing something with this character.

We're only playing low levels to mid really, is there anything I should be aware of in regards to the two classes above?

They are the ones that I think I'm having the most difficult time understanding the logic of how they are played and probably will be the most likely to pop up surprises on me in regards to rules or other wise.

Sczarni

HERE is a price guide I came up with for Gunslingers in PFS.

Has she been factoring her discount for having the Gunsmithing feat?

Grand Lodge

The Eidolon is completely independent of the summoner for pretty much everything. Health, stats, the whole shazam. She probably put the points in con because she wants to get up in melee too, with that strength score, and she knows she'll be squishy with the only a 15 dex and summoner armor proficiencies. Or I just don't know. Some people don't optomize. Also, while Cha is the primary stat for summoners, you don't need an excessive amount. Only a few of the summoner spells have DCs, and as a spontaneous caster you have a respectable pool of spells already, so bonus spells would eventually mean less. Spell wise, I'm a bit confused with identify, but it may be what she wants. Keep an eye out for 4th level, summoners get haste at 4t.

Gunslinger: Gunslingers are expensive. The trick is, with the Gunsmithing feat you get for free, you can craft ammo far cheaper than is presented. Make sure she's crafting (also, take at least 1 rank in craft alchemy to get the alchemical cartridges crafted as well, they're what allow gunslingers to full attack). Rapid Reload is simply necessary, otherwise a pistol takes a standard action to reload, and a musket takes a full-round.


Also, with the summoner is the life link ability. The summoner may want a larger pool of hit points to transfer to the eidolon.


Kiinyan wrote:

The Eidolon is completely independent of the summoner for pretty much everything. Health, stats, the whole shazam. She probably put the points in con because she wants to get up in melee too, with that strength score, and she knows she'll be squishy with the only a 15 dex and summoner armor proficiencies. Or I just don't know. Some people don't optomize. Also, while Cha is the primary stat for summoners, you don't need an excessive amount. Only a few of the summoner spells have DCs, and as a spontaneous caster you have a respectable pool of spells already, so bonus spells would eventually mean less. Spell wise, I'm a bit confused with identify, but it may be what she wants. Keep an eye out for 4th level, summoners get haste at 4t.

Gunslinger: Gunslingers are expensive. The trick is, with the Gunsmithing feat you get for free, you can craft ammo far cheaper than is presented. Make sure she's crafting (also, take at least 1 rank in craft alchemy to get the alchemical cartridges crafted as well, they're what allow gunslingers to full attack). Rapid Reload is simply necessary, otherwise a pistol takes a standard action to reload, and a musket takes a full-round.

That could be it, she is looking to be geared for melee, but didn't have the money right off.

I'm not certain why Identify either...she hasn't used it yet either.

I suppose that could explain why she wasn't as concerned with a really high CHA then...haste could end up being a beast overall.

Do summoner's make decent melee with their Eidolons?

With the Gunslinger, we haven't had time for crafting anything, but we will between the adventures we just had...so I'll see if that's what she does this next time.

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Also, with the summoner is the life link ability. The summoner may want a larger pool of hit points to transfer to the eidolon.

She has already made use of the life link ability.

Sczarni

Identify gives you a +10 to identifying the properties of magic items via Spellcraft.

If she's not planning on putting max ranks into Spellcraft that +10 may be necessary just to see what sort of loot they're getting.

At level 1 (w/ 1 rank) she'd have +5 Spellcraft. With Identify that jumps to +15. She can then feel free to put skill ranks elsewhere.

I also drafted up a melee Summoner. He took the Shoanti Tattoo Trait to become proficient with the Earth Breaker and Klar, and will work towards Thunder and Fang by 7th level. His summons will be treated like Shoanti spirits coming to his aid, and when they're all used up his "Guardian Spirit" will show up to protect him.

I think a melee Summoner can be a fun idea.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Even if the summoner wasn't planning on going into melee, a ton of Con is a good idea. The easiest way to dismiss an eidolon is to target the (typically) squishy summoner behind them. If the summoner is a giant bucket of hit points, that becomes a lot harder to do.

Always give the gunslinger time to make their own ammo, if you can. Otherwise, yes, her wealth will be pretty much be dumped into bullets. Not to mention that guns are extremely rare in Golarion (as a GM you can change that, of course), so buying ammunition could be very difficult in most parts of the world.


Off topic, but there is an interesting bit in the Inner Sea sarkorian "god-callers". Sounds a bit like your melee summoner.


Eidolons are scary because they can claw/claw/bite pounce from level 1. I have never seen a problem with a non-pouncing eidolon, you should be fine. Gunslingers are expensive if they only use the gun. They have proficiency in all martial weapons and should use that to save money by using other weapons also at lower levels.

Shadow Lodge

Summoner- they rolled ridiculously good stats, so it doesn't matter if they put an 18 in to con when they also have a 16 and a 17. The player doesn't want to die I guess. As for Summoner stats, they are NOT a charisma based character, cha is a secondary stat for most summoners. Summoners don't get a lot of spells, but they get 3/4 bab, d8 HD, light armor prof. Hey, that's the same as a rogue whom you probably expected get up in melee. So hitting things with a big stick, flanking with your eidolon, taking teamwork feats with your eidolon, pretty standard stuff. If you know it's only going to level 9, then you only need a 13cha to cast all your spells.

Gunslinger- normal bullet plus powder made yourself costs 1.1g per shot. Hardly breaking the bank. Paper cartridges cost 6g EA, but you don't really need them until you are able to take multiple shots per round. Also, gunslingers get op fast, the gold tax on ammo is a little something to help keep them in check. Note gunslingers get all martial proficiencies. At low levels you can throw axes, fire a bow, etc, you don't have to only use the gun. Low levels targeting touch AC isnt as big of a bonus, and all your ranged feats ( PB shot, precise shot) work with any other weapons too.


gnoams wrote:
Gunslinger- normal bullet plus powder made yourself costs 1.1g per shot. Hardly breaking the bank. Paper cartridges cost 6g EA, but you don't really need them until you are able to take multiple shots per round. Also, gunslingers get op fast, the gold tax on ammo is a little something to help keep them in check. Note gunslingers get all martial proficiencies. At low levels you can throw axes, fire a bow, etc, you don't have to only use the gun. Low levels targeting touch AC isnt as big of a bonus, and all your ranged feats ( PB shot, precise shot) work with any other weapons too.

I actually want to broach this a little bit real fast: I keep seeing people claim gunslingers are overpowered, but I never see how that actually works out in reality. Sure, a 3/4-armed dual-pistol gunslinger can get a bazillion shots off in a round, wasting everything in sight...until they misfire, which when you're shooting that much happens fairly often. Gunslingers get, at least with the usual choices in guns, anywhere from 2x-5x (base 1-4 misfire chance, +1 for using a paper cartridge) the chance to automatically miss with their attacks over that of a normal martial. And when you do inevitably misfire, you have to spend at least a move action to clear your weapon (by spending a grit; it's a standard action otherwise), or it has a chance of being permanently destroyed while also doing damage to you. No other martial class has that problem.

Then they also have reload times, which until 11th level, is at best a move action for a two-handed gun with Rapid Reload, keeping you from making a full attack that round, or a free action with a one-handed gun and Rapid Reload, but you have to keep a hand free, so no dual wielding them.

The combination of both these things basically negates any benefit you get from being able to target touch AC in the first range increment. Sure, you basically always hit (when you don't automatically miss), but you have a lot of other hurdles preventing you from being a living Gatling gun.

The biggest problems I've seen with gunslingers revolve around having extra limbs from taking levels in alchemist while also using advanced firearms, which is a bit of a corner case to say the least. So yes, gunslingers can be powerful if played right, but no more so than any other ranged martial character, and their one trick (touch AC in the first range increment) is overcome by just placing the big baddie in the back of the room. So I'm honestly curious where they start being such an issue over the traditional longbow ranger or fighter.

Sczarni

Musket Masters can reload a Musket as a free action by level 3 using Alchemical Cartridges.

Pistols can be reloaded as a free action at level 1 using the same.

By level 13 you no longer misfire with your firearm of choice. If you get a +1 Greater Reliable Firearm you won't misfire, either.

With the Quickdraw feat you can effectively unload one Pistol, drop it, free action draw your other, and unload it, too (or use a Glove of Storing).

And since enemy touch ACs tend to drop as you go up in level due to size penalties, high level Gunslingers are hitting 95% of the time.


In general the crazy OP gunslinger is a Pistolero with 2 revolvers. Not having access to advanced firearms slows them down and has a feat tax of rapid reload, making Musket Master about equal to a Pistolero without advanced firearms.


She is currently favoring the Alchemical Cartridges at least currently. I was trying to look up other cartridges as there was a question about them and availability...didn't think much of it until mentions here.

During their downtime I'll see what she does, if she crafts ammo and such. If she does, what ammo is she allowed to craft or not at level 1?

Is all of it available, or is some of it restricted, or should I restrict some types if it isn't?

That's a pretty interesting idea with the Quickdraw feat I hadn't even thought of...will be somewhat prepared if she chooses it (in, not surprised now).

The summoner found better armor over the weekend when we were playing, and also found some better weapons, but ironically debated about who would get it between her, the gunslinger, and our Cavalier...she didn't end up getting the weapons, but with the treasure they got, now that they have downtime, I'll see if she picks up better weapons and what.


Nefreet wrote:

Musket Masters can reload a Musket as a free action by level 3 using Alchemical Cartridges.

Pistols can be reloaded as a free action at level 1 using the same.

That's fair. You'll still be perpetually one attack behind a bow, though, because you can't have Manyshot, and you still have to deal with misfiring one way or another. Basically, you trade Manyshot for Rapid Reload and a misfire chance.

Nefreet wrote:
By level 13 you no longer misfire with your firearm of choice. If you get a +1 Greater Reliable Firearm you won't misfire, either.

Only pistoleros can get 0 misfire with class abilities. Normal gunslingers and musket masters don't get that (or at least I see nothing in their abilities that would give that). As well, greater reliable puts you +3 behind on your weapon compared to a normal archer or other martial. This is dealable, but definitely a drawback.

Nefreet wrote:
With the Quickdraw feat you can effectively unload one Pistol, drop it, free action draw your other, and unload it, too (or use a Glove of Storing).

And this quickly gets very expensive when you start trying to enchant your weapons. Dual wielding is expensive enough as it is, but having four, six, or even eight pistols and trying to keep their enchantments relevant becomes absurd.

Nefreet wrote:
And since enemy touch ACs tend to drop as you go up in level due to size penalties, high level Gunslingers are hitting 95% of the time.

This is definitely a big deal, and something I did already bring up. But the investment required to avoid having your weapon explode or to spend rounds not full attacking makes up for it a lot. You also have to remember that the touch AC is only in the first range increment -- for pistols, the easiest to get worked out, that's 20', and for muskets, which take a lot more investment, it's still only 40'. 20' is severely limiting, and 40' is fairly close range. Anything you're shooting at touch AC, the fighter or ranger have been easily shooting for a round or two more than you.


Also, gunslingers are proficient in all martial weapons and have a full bab. They have the option of pulling out a sword and hacking after unloading their guns the first round to save some cash. Nothing wrong with blasting the boss and then cleaning up some mooks with a two handed sword. Kobolds aren't really worth a bullet.

The Exchange

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Wow, "You're not worth a bullet" is more than just an empty phrase in Pathfinder. ;)


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Also, with the summoner is the life link ability. The summoner may want a larger pool of hit points to transfer to the eidolon.

Although I must admit that in my experience the Life Link ability has very seldom proven useful. At low levels, there are very few enemies that can reduce an eidolon with 1+ hit points all the way to -Con hit points in one hit, so you very seldom get to use Life Link in a way that keeps the eidolon up and fighting.

Sczarni

The Vulture wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Musket Masters can reload a Musket as a free action by level 3 using Alchemical Cartridges.

Pistols can be reloaded as a free action at level 1 using the same.

That's fair. You'll still be perpetually one attack behind a bow, though, because you can't have Manyshot, and you still have to deal with misfiring one way or another. Basically, you trade Manyshot for Rapid Reload and a misfire chance.

If a Musket Master takes Rapid Reload (double barrel musket) they end up getting more attacks than even a Zen Archer with a bow.

Imagine BAB of +16 and Haste. The Monk Flurries with Ki, the MM uses Rapid Shot:

MM gets +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1/-4/-4 (against touch AC)

ZA gets +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0

And Musket Masters no longer misfire at 13th, either.

EDIT: adjusted the MM numbers by -4 for using double barrels.


Nefreet wrote:
The Vulture wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

Musket Masters can reload a Musket as a free action by level 3 using Alchemical Cartridges.

Pistols can be reloaded as a free action at level 1 using the same.

That's fair. You'll still be perpetually one attack behind a bow, though, because you can't have Manyshot, and you still have to deal with misfiring one way or another. Basically, you trade Manyshot for Rapid Reload and a misfire chance.

If a Musket Master takes Rapid Reload (double barrel musket) they end up getting more attacks than even a Zen Archer with a bow.

Imagine BAB of +16 and Haste. The Monk Flurries with Ki, the MM uses Rapid Shot:

MM gets +11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1/+1/-4/-4 (against touch AC)

ZA gets +15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0

And Musket Masters no longer misfire at 13th, either.

EDIT: adjusted the MM numbers by -4 for using double barrels.

You have me on both counts there. I completely forgot about double barrels, and my tired eyes missed the line for musket masters not misfiring. This is what I get for arguing while sick, I suppose.

I still think the 40' range on the touch AC (20' for pistols) is a reasonable drawback, though. Not a big deal against the single big bad, but large single fights rarely work in the soloer's favor, anyways. You take out everything in front, your friends take out everything behind.

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