Ifrit PC with Firesight pointing out enemy's location in smoke?


Rules Questions


Normally, smoke such as smoke from a smokestick is treated as a fog cloud spell, which is to say that all sight is obscured past melee range (5 feet).
But the Ifrit Firesight feat allows a player to see through smoke without penalty. So, given these conditions, say an Ifrit with this feat used a smokestick or a spell of Obscuring Mist with a smokestick, creating smoke.

Givens: One enemy is inside the smoke, is visible to Player 1, and can only be seen by Player 2 once he arrives within 5' of said enemy.

Player 1 is an Ifrit with this feat who has spotted this enemy, which is in the smoke. She wants to direct Player 2, who is a fighter, towards the square where the enemy is hiding, even if Player 2 can't currently see that square. This is done with the intent that once Player 2 enters a square adjacent to the enemy, he will see the enemy.

So Player 2's character needs to be capable of perceiving Player 1 to receive directions. Can this be done, and can it be done only by auditory instruction alone (Player 1 is in the smoke and further than 5' away from Player 2)? Can the enemy hide from Player 2 and not Player 1, since there is no concealment against Player 1, and can Player 1 break the enemy's stealth simply by pointing out where it is?


Realistically, probably not. Shouting directions to someone takes too much time for a six-second combat round, and the enemy were free to move he probably would simply move away.

In RAW terms, "talking is a free action," distances can be measured exactly, and all players are aware of the map orientation at all times. Player 1 could simply say that the enemy was "fifteen feet east and five feet north," thus pinpointing the square exactly.


Katydid wrote:

Normally, smoke such as smoke from a smokestick is treated as a fog cloud spell, which is to say that all sight is obscured past melee range (5 feet).

But the Ifrit Firesight feat allows a player to see through smoke without penalty. So, given these conditions, say an Ifrit with this feat used a smokestick or a spell of Obscuring Mist with a smokestick, creating smoke.

Givens: One enemy is inside the smoke, is visible to Player 1, and can only be seen by Player 2 once he arrives within 5' of said enemy.

Player 1 is an Ifrit with this feat who has spotted this enemy, which is in the smoke. She wants to direct Player 2, who is a fighter, towards the square where the enemy is hiding, even if Player 2 can't currently see that square. This is done with the intent that once Player 2 enters a square adjacent to the enemy, he will see the enemy.

So Player 2's character needs to be capable of perceiving Player 1 to receive directions. Can this be done, and can it be done only by auditory instruction alone (Player 1 is in the smoke and further than 5' away from Player 2)? Can the enemy hide from Player 2 and not Player 1, since there is no concealment against Player 1, and can Player 1 break the enemy's stealth simply by pointing out where it is?

Oh neat! I love stuff like this. Easy answer.

The enemy still has concealment when adjacent to Player 2 and can still stealth. Player 2 still needs to roll his spot vs the enemy stealth.

Now on to the subjective stuff.

If Player 1 is of the martial type, I would say yes, they can auditorally direct the Fighter who is also a martial type and disciplined enough to receive combat instructions in the thick of it.

Something like,

Ranger Jill: "Stop! 5 paces forward and swing left!"

Makes sense in my head.

Silver Crusade

Katydid wrote:
So Player 2's character needs to be capable of perceiving Player 1 to receive directions. Can this be done, and can it be done only by auditory instruction alone (Player 1 is in the smoke and further than 5' away from Player 2)?

Seems straightforward to me. Was there an argument over saying something like: "Jon! Take three steps forward then two more at 10 o'clock"?

Katydid wrote:
Can the enemy hide from Player 2 and not Player 1, since there is no concealment against Player 1,

Yes. Rather like seeing someone crouching around a crate behind your allies' backs, you might be in a situation to perceive things others cannot and take action.

Katydid wrote:
and can Player 1 break the enemy's stealth simply by pointing out where it is?

No. I believe you can add a bonus to the other character's perception roll or trigger a re-roll.

Note: Player 2 could not even check for stealth until within 5' of the target because Player 2 would have no way to perceive the opponent. If the opponent created noise or maybe had a very strong smell then Player 2 could check sooner based on the appropriate sense and the exact nature of the smoke effect.


I'm pointing to the location of my couch right now.

Do you see it?


Rynjin wrote:

I'm pointing to the location of my couch right now.

Do you see it?

What is this I don't even.

Silver Crusade

Scavion wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I'm pointing to the location of my couch right now.

Do you see it?

What is this I don't even.

He can see his couch. He's pointing it out to us. Can you see it now?

Refer to previous posts in this thread for further clarity.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:

I'm pointing to the location of my couch right now.

Do you see it?

Pointing out is not necessarily pointing at.

"Okay, class, I would like to point out for you a few of the differences between the Greek and Roman gods."

The speaker then goes on to descibe, verbally, the differences. No need for the class to "look" since the differences are being "pointed out".

Or, as mentioned, "Jericho, move 12' to your right, then 4' forward." which should also easily fall into 6 seconds worth of speech...


kinevon wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I'm pointing to the location of my couch right now.

Do you see it?

Pointing out is not necessarily pointing at.

"Okay, class, I would like to point out for you a few of the differences between the Greek and Roman gods."

The speaker then goes on to descibe, verbally, the differences. No need for the class to "look" since the differences are being "pointed out".

Or, as mentioned, "Jericho, move 12' to your right, then 4' forward." which should also easily fall into 6 seconds worth of speech...

Possibly. It's harder than you make it sound, though.

How do you judge when you've walked 12 feet if you can't see more than 5 ahead of you? You probably can't even see your own feet unless you're quite short.

That would, at the very least, slow you even more than usual for being blind. 1/4 speed at best in my book while you try to figure out the exact distance by putting one foot in front of another.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
kinevon wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

I'm pointing to the location of my couch right now.

Do you see it?

Pointing out is not necessarily pointing at.

"Okay, class, I would like to point out for you a few of the differences between the Greek and Roman gods."

The speaker then goes on to descibe, verbally, the differences. No need for the class to "look" since the differences are being "pointed out".

Or, as mentioned, "Jericho, move 12' to your right, then 4' forward." which should also easily fall into 6 seconds worth of speech...

Possibly. It's harder than you make it sound, though.

How do you judge when you've walked 12 feet if you can't see more than 5 ahead of you? You probably can't even see your own feet unless you're quite short.

That would, at the very least, slow you even more than usual for being blind. 1/4 speed at best in my book while you try to figure out the exact distance by putting one foot in front of another.

And you look at your feet instead of ahead of you when you walk normally?

Each person, in general, knows the length of their own stride, whether they can see where they are stepping or not.

So, you would prefer, "4 paces straight ahead, then veer to your right for one stride."?


kinevon wrote:


And you look at your feet instead of ahead of you when you walk normally?

No.

Because I can see ahead of myself normally.

kinevon wrote:
Each person, in general, knows the length of their own stride, whether they can see where they are stepping or not.

Wanna put that to the test? Put yourself in the middle of a room. Close your eyes. Spin in a circle.

Have someone guide you somewhere just as you're suggesting.

You instinctively take smaller steps when you can't see.


Rynjin wrote:


You instinctively take smaller steps when you can't see.

Hah! Maybe if you're a coward!

/funny business.

Grand Lodge

Rynjin wrote:
kinevon wrote:


And you look at your feet instead of ahead of you when you walk normally?

No.

Because I can see ahead of myself normally.

kinevon wrote:
Each person, in general, knows the length of their own stride, whether they can see where they are stepping or not.

Wanna put that to the test? Put yourself in the middle of a room. Close your eyes. Spin in a circle.

Have someone guide you somewhere just as you're suggesting.

You instinctively take smaller steps when you can't see.

But you are in a fog, where you can't see far, not in deeper darkness, where you cannot see at all. Big difference.

Blindness limits your movement rate, unless you want to use Acrobatics. Obscuring Mist limits distance vision, not the ability to see at all.

Now, if you moved at 60 MPH normally, you would move a lot slower in a fog cloud (or should, but real world idiot drivers is a different subject), but at the speed of walking, only being able to see more-or-less clearly for 5' is not a big limiter.

Do you also limit the movement rates of someone who is using a candle for light in PF? That has a 5' circle of illumination, too...


kinevon wrote:


But you are in a fog, where you can't see far, not in deeper darkness, where you cannot see at all. Big difference.

Blindness limits your movement rate, unless you want to use Acrobatics. Obscuring Mist limits distance vision, not the ability to see at all.

Fog still requires the exact same Acrobatics check to move faster than half your speed without falling on your ass, because you ARE effectively blinded, just as if you're stumbling around in the dark.

It has the exact same effects as blinded past 5 feet. ALL vision is obscured.

kinevon wrote:
Do you also limit the movement rates of someone who is using a candle for light in PF? That has a 5' circle of illumination, too...

If they're trying to navigate by the light of a single candle in pitch blackness, yes.

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