Devil Summoner - Need Advice


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hello ^-^
i'm planning to create a Devil summoner..
my question are:

- Wich class is the best-oriented to do that?
- Feats, traits that allow me to do so better/earlier?

Thank you ^-^


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The Master Summoner Archetype for the Summoner.

The base class is in the Advanced Player's Guide.
The archetype is in the Ultimate Magic supplement.

Or you can reference the PRD here at Paizo.

Feats: Augment Summoning (free with archetype). Superior Summoning.
That's more than enough for most campaigns.

Note there are many things to consider before playing a summoning-based class. Here's a few to ponder:
Keep your stats for favorite summons handy...with any/all modifications for your feats.
When it's your turn...go go go. When it's not your turn, figure out what your summons are going to do. Don't make the table wait.
You will probably outshine most baseline characters.


thank you.. yes i was planning that..i don't want to slow down fight..
i will take a look at master summoner

Dark Archive

Things like Planar binding/ally?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not sure what you mean then. Here is what you can summon via the Summon Monster Spells II-IX:

Monster Summoning List, by Spell Level wrote:


2nd Level Subtype
Lemure (devil) Evil, Lawful
3rd Level Subtype
Dretch (demon) Chaotic, Evil
4th Level Subtype
Hell hound Evil, Lawful
5th Level Subtype
Babau (demon) Chaotic, Evil
Bearded devil Evil, Lawful
Kyton Evil, Lawful
6th Level Subtype
Erinyes (devil) Evil, Lawful
Shadow demon Chaotic, Evil
Succubus (demon) Chaotic, Evil
7th Level Subtype
Bebelith Chaotic, Evil
Bone devil Evil, Lawful
Vrock (demon) Chaotic, Evil
8th Level Subtype
Barbed devil Evil, Lawful
Hezrou (demon) Chaotic, Evil
9th Level Subtype
Glabrezu (demon) Chaotic, Evil
Ice devil Evil, Lawful
Nalfeshnee (demon) Chaotic, Evil

There are not many (if any) demons/devils you can start summoning with at level 1. Unless you want to fluff your Eidolon into looking like one. Or summon fiendish variations of some creatures.

There are also specific arcane spells such as Summon Cacodaemon. Again 2nd level spells and up. The Planar spells (Ally for Divine, Binding for Arcane are level 4+ (caster 7+)

Do you have more specifics? Game/campaign type? Starting wealth, level, etc?


yes.. i wanted to do only this... summon or (maybe better conjure/call outsiders)...
i want outsiders(demons,devils) be my minions u.u...how? I don't know XD!
is there a class that allow me do this better?

Dark Archive

Homebrew would work, there may be a 3pp archetype I'm not sure. There also could be a prestige class


homebrew must be balanced btw...
for Prestige Classes if you have suggestion, probably i can take that!

basically what class is better-oriented on do this?

Dark Archive

A Diabolist Cleric would be decent, Evil domain with devil/demon subdomain
A master summoner/Celestial commander(modify for evil) would work
A conjurer wizard
An Infernal/ Abyssal Sorcerer

Dark Archive

In one of the council of thieves books,there are a host of spells for the faithful of Asmodeus if you want to check out some of those


There's also the Wizard. The Conjuration school has a sub-school specialization for this: the Infernal Binder. I'm playing one fluffed as a graduate of the Acadamae, known for its devil binders, and it's a lot of fun. You get the versatility of a full wizard but a bit of extra summoning power. Good feat choices are Improved Initiative, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning and Skill Focus: Diplomacy/Bluff/Sense Motive. The True Name arcane discovery for wizards fits extremely well. For Prestige Classes, Paizo has Diabolist and Blackfire Adept.


@Cr: yes Diabolist seems the best choice..

@Dread: that you propose is really cool, but maybe works better like a support of the caster who called a demon or a devil(if i've read well)


@Dread: thank you so much! Darkfire Adept fits perfect what i was searching!!


If you are playing a character below 9th level, then summon. If you're summoning, play a Summoner or a Conjuration specialist wizard.

If you're playing 9th level or higher, then you want to play a Diabolist. Trust me. Search this forum for "DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist" (several entries) and "DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding". If you play the Diabolist right, it is both flavorful and *very* powerful.

cheers,

Doug M.


thank you douglas! I'll take a look


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

If you are playing a character below 9th level, then summon. If you're summoning, play a Summoner or a Conjuration specialist wizard.

If you're playing 9th level or higher, then you want to play a Diabolist. Trust me. Search this forum for "DMDM's Guide to the Diabolist" (several entries) and "DMDM's Guide to Planar Binding". If you play the Diabolist right, it is both flavorful and *very* powerful.

cheers,

Doug M.

Doug, when are you going to put it together into one cohesive document?


The Worst Of The Plagues wrote:

hello ^-^

i'm planning to create a Devil summoner..
my question are:

- Wich class is the best-oriented to do that?
- Feats, traits that allow me to do so better/earlier?

Thank you ^-^

I have a player doing the same thing right now in Gary McBride's Way of the Wicked campaign. There are some VERY good feats in the that campaign series but the best one for devil binding reads:

Contract Master
You are skilled at negotiating with outsiders for their
services.
Prerequisites: Ability to cast lesser planar ally, lesser
planar binding, or a greater version of these spells.
Benefit: Whenever you negotiate payment with an
outsider to secure its services through planar ally, planar
binding, or a similar spell, the cost of the payment is
halved. In addition, receive a +4 bonus on any checks associated
with such bargains or to compel service (such as
with planar binding). This bonus also applies when testing
the trap of a planar binding against the outsider’s spell
resistance. Finally, whenever you use a spell to gain or
compel service from an outsider, you can attempt a Dipolmacy
skill check opposed by the outsider’s Sense Motive.
If you succeed in this check, the contract you form
with the outsider is worded in such a way to prevent the
outsider from taking intentional actions that are harmful
to you and your cause (subject to the GMs interpretation)

My player went the Charisma-based Sorcerer route even though he likes wizards better because he wanted the high Charisma for opposed Charisma check at higher levels of game play. He went into Diabolist and what we coined the "Thassilonian Devil Binder" which is a renamed Nar Demonbinder from Forgotten Realms' Unappoachable East book. He has been very pleased.


The next time my wife and kids are out of town for a few days.

Doug M.


thank you Nezzarine!


Douglas what do you think about demons? i think i've read that demons are more powerful than devils... who wrote this is wrong?


Don't forget that feat is from a 3PP campaign, Way of the Wicked. I like WotW a lot, but some of its feats are (quite deliberately) overpowered.

Demons and devils are about equally powerful for the same CR. Maybe demons are slightly more powerful in melee because they tend to have higher Str and more destructive SLAs. Devils tend to have higher Int and more skills. But the difference, at any given CR, is small -- a CR 9 vrock demon is not much more powerful than a CR 9 bone devil.

The big differences are in role-playing and tactics. Devils are lawful; they are organized, they work as a team or dominating a group of minions, they have plans. You can make a deal with a devil and it will honor its part of the agreement -- although, of course, it will always try to honor the letter instead of the spirit, pervert the agreement to its advantage, etc. Demons are chaotic; they love destruction for its own sake. They can have minions and plans and even crude organizations, but those things will usually be secondary. Demons are individualists and inherently unpredictable.

A devil disguised as the King's minister? Wants to corrupt the King and turn the kingdom into a brutal tyranny, a place of cruel oppression and slavery, with himself as the secret ruler manipulating the King that he has tempted and corrupted into evil. A demon in the same disguise? Wants to bring war, civil war, fire and riots and chaos, with the final goal of standing laughing on the balcony while the capital city burns and the royal family are bludgeoned to death with clubs in the courtyard below.

cheers,

Doug M.


i really thank you doug.. now things seems clear to me!

I will go for Diabolist :) i have more feeling with that!


some tips bounded to the roleplay of a diabolist? some ideas?


I think coming at this from Conjurer or Infernal bloodline Sorcerer would be flavorful. I suppose you could come at it from Summoner, but why give up 7th, 8th and 9th level spells for more in combat summons? I find Lawful Evil fun to play but it is demanding for me at least. I think if you are messing around with Devils you are gonna end up messing with undead too, and not being evil is a pipe dream at that point. If you are in Golarion then Asmodeus will be the go to deity. A Cleric of Asmodeus can qualify for Diabolist as well if you find that more fun to play.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4

The upcoming Champions of Corruption will have done additional devil-summoning options, I figure. Just like how Champions of Purity offered a feat to expand summoning options for good-aligned outsiders.


not really what i'm asking.. i wanted some tips about how to role(and how kind of) evil PC

(but thank you btw!)


Now i'm planning to find a good role i want to act, and in the same time start to build my "Devilsmancer":

i'm starting at lv.4
PB:20 (+1 4thlv)
Money: level
Race: i'm thinking to take human u.u
Class: Wizard (conjuration)

What about the stats? Usually are: INT>DEX>COS>WIS>CHA>STR
but in this case (future Diabolist) i need Cha.. so how to put them in order?
Also, i've read somewhere to never take a 18(costs) but to look for a 17.. is that wrong?

What about first feats?
Some item that is a must-have for this level?


Well, this is an easier task, help with build advice for a 20 point buy Human Conjurer going for Diabolist.

You can sneak into the class early by getting a scroll of Lesser Planar Binding letting you start taking it at 6 not 8.

I think the real choice for this kind of conjurer is how many and what kind of imps. You can go Infernal Binder subschool and get some thematic powers and a free Improved Familiar at 7th. You can go Teleportation subschool for the defense power and take Improved Familiar at 7th anyway. You could also cut out after 5th and get the Diabolist powers earlier.

A good stat array looks something like this:
Str 07 07 07 07 07 10
Dex 14 16 14 14 14 14
Con 14 14 14 13 14 12
Int 20 19 19 20 19 19
Wis 11 10 14 12 11 10
Cha 07 07 07 07 10 10

For feats you are in an odd place. You know you are getting Augment Summoning for free at Diabolist 3 so you don't want to take it earlier (unless the retraining rules are being used and you want to use a feat on Spell Focus: Conjuration.) You get scribe Scroll for free. I would recommend Craft Wondrous Item as your 3rd level feat (unless you can't in your campaign.) The traits Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter (Metamagic Master) can be very good if you know you are going to have a go to spell. Intensified Spell and Rime Spell are the 2 metamagic feats you can use early easily. Persistent Spell, Dazing Spell and Quicken Spell are the strongest metamagic for most builds but come online later. Spell Specialization is very good if you focus on something where CL matters, and Varisian (Mage's) Tattoo and Bloatmage (Bloodmage) Initiate help in that department as well.

For spells the normal combat stuff is good, but you want more. The Planar Binding spells, the Undead creating spells, Craft Construct, Fabricate, Simulacrum, Dominate & Charm, Leadership, Clone, hiring people for money, blackmail & extortion, Gate; this is how you build your evil empire.


i've not really understood stats array ( :( sorry! )

first feats i was thinking are: Spell focus (conjuration), Greater spell focus (conjuration) (i will use planar binding for most of the time.. is it wrong to take those?), Spell Penetration (Devils till "lesser planar binding" have SR, if i'm not wrong...and don't really wanna fail against them), Greater Spell Penetration, True Name..

The Scroll of lesser planar binding how much will cost? (really no idea!)

Infernal Binder fit perfectly! i'm taking it :)

Spell Specialization is good.. it increase caster level, but it increase also difficulty to overcome SR (if i'm not wrong)


I apologize for the confusing stat arrays, they look different in the post, I tried to edit it but the font was working against me.

I was giving 6 separate examples to show that there are several good builds and taste matters more than having the "best" one.

Str 7
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 20
Wis 11
Cha 7

That is what I personally would choose, but more focus on charisma produces:

Str 7
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 19
Wis 12
Cha 12

Both assume that you put your human flexible bonus in Int and both are before you add anything from leveling.


Your character will be able to summon devils in a few different ways. You can use the Summon Monster line of spells to gain them in combat for 1 round/level, this is what Augment Summoning is for mostly. You can use the Planar Binding line of spells to gain Devil minions, but lots of things can go wrong, and even when it goes right you have to pay them. You can take the Leadership feat (with GM permission) to gain a Hell Hound (eventually an Erinyes) Cohort. Diabolist grants you an Imp Animal Companion and when you advance Infernal Binder to 7th you get an Imp Familiar.

However, you are also a Conjurer with Grease, Obscuring Mist, Create Pit, Fog Could, Glitterdust, Summon Swarm, and Web. And whatever goodies are in the other 5 schools you didn't pick for opposition schools.

What you do with your spells determines what kind of feats you want to take. If none of the spells you use in combat allow spell resistance you don't need Spell Penetration. If you use a lot of battlefield control spells you probably want a very high initiative. Metamagic feats are powerful, but you really need to figure out what you would memorize with them or they can burn you. If you want to rely on metamagic rods that can work but gets expensive with Quicken.


A scroll of Lesser Planar Binding costs 1,125gp.
A lesser metamagic rod of Extend costs 3,000gp.
A Handy Haversack costs 2,000gp.
A Ring of Sustenance costs 2,500gp.
A 1st level Pearl of Power costs 1,000gp.
A 2nd level Pearl of Power costs 4,000gp.
A Cloak of Resistance +1 costs 1,000gp.
A Cloak of Resistance +2 costs 4,000gp.
A Ring of Protection +1 Costs 2,000gp.
An Amulet of Natural Armor +1 costs 2,000gp.
A Headband of Intelligence +2 costs 4,000gp.
1st level wands cost 750gp at caster level 1.
1st level potions cost 50gp at caster level 1.
1st level scrolls cost 25gp at caster level 1.
2nd level potions cost 300gp at caster level 3.
2nd level scrolls cost 150gp at caster level 3.
3rd level potions cost 750gp at caster level 5.
3rd level scrolls cost 375gp at caster level 5.
4th level scrolls cost 700gp at caster level 7.
5th level scrolls cost 1,125gp at caster level 9.
2nd level wands cost 4,500 at caster level 3.

There is plenty of other good stuff to buy, but this covers most of what you can afford.


thank you so much...

first i wanna say: the only thing (also for flavour!) that i want to do at the very best is binding outsiders (and i think i've not have to pay them.. but this i can fit, is not a problem with my DM).

for leadership, am i wrong, or i must wait 7TH?

here the spells i want to use (4th level my PC):

1TH
Grease, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Charm Person

2TH
Resist Energy, Create Pit, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Web

don't even know if some has SR..


You do need to be 7th level to take Leadership. It helps to know what you plan on taking later to know what to take now. Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus:Conjuration, Greater Spell Focus:Conjuration and something like Improved Initiative or Craft Wondrous Item should be all you have for now. Spell Penetration will help at high level but you aren't there yet. You also might want to focus on caster level directly rather than grab those feats.

The spell says you have to make offerings and exchange payment, but those don't have to be in gold, devils will usually bargain for services so you can pay in evil acts if you get the devil to agree.

You also have to pick opposition schools. Abjuration has the Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor spells you need to make your Planar Binding spells work. So that leaves Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy and Transmutation. Maybe Divination and Evocation would work, but any 2 make you lose nice things. Being evil makes Enchantment and Necromancy much better than they are normally.


Oh, I think you are actually getting in 4 levels early not 2 by using the scroll. I would buy 2 scrolls just in case it doesn't work the first time.


i can't cause infernal binder say: Divination, Trasmutation or Illusion..
so i took as opposites Divination and Trasmutation... i need Illusion for defence u.u

"If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward"

It says PERHAPS...so :) not a big problem.. i can also convince 'em roleplaying.. my DM give much importance to "how you role that"

So you suggest improved initiative (i've DEx+Scorpion[4]) or Craft WI... maybe spell perfection?


specialization i mean!

so for what i want to do, this fit better? -->
Str 7
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 19
Wis 12
Cha 12


I would take CWI, buy 2 scrolls of Lesser Planar Binding, buy a Ring of Sustenance, learn Rope Trick and spend the middle of the night making magic items. I would also give up Illusion rather than lose Transmutation. Illusion is good, but Transmutation is better. Obscuring Mist will hide you almost as well as Invisiblity and not being able to fly is going to get very painful very quickly.

Spell Specialization is a very strong feat, but more for Evokers than Conjurers. You have to pick one spell, and it has to have some part that scales with level. Then you end up taking Intensified Spell and you want Magical Lineage and Empower and it starts consuming your whole build. I either build for it specifically or skip it entirely.


You can take the Opposition Research discovery in place of a feat at any point from 9th level to get back one of your opposition schools if giving up Illusion or Transmutation is causing problems.

Those stats look fine, and your wizard isn't a 7 charisma jerk. Put your 4th level increase into intelligence to get a 20 and you should be good.

You can also take both Improved Initiative and Craft Wondrous Item if you don't take Greater Spell Focus:Conjuration. You want to go first, have higher spell DCs and make half price magic items. So you prioritize them. I think CWI is probably the second best feat in the game after leadership. More than half of the stuff everyone else wants is wondrous items and that goes double for you with your no weapons or armor. You can also make your companions half price magic items if you finish all of yours and this makes them like you more. Maximum ranks of spellcraft is a must if you go this route.


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Okay, going to post some excerpts from my guides here. You can find the different pieces by searching, like so.

Entering the Diabolist class:

Entering this class after 5th level, while legal, is not as easy as it might seem. You'll need to buy a scroll of Lesser Planar Binding and probably a scroll of Magic Circle Against Evil as well. Assuming the scroll was cast at 9th level, you'll need to make a DC 10 caster level check, meaning you'll make it on a 5 or higher -- 80% of the time. But then the conjured devil must fail its Will save; must also fail a special Cha check (DC 15 + 1/2 your level + your Cha modifier); and then lose to you on an opposed Cha check to be forced into service. For this reason, you should swallow your pride and summon a lemure (+0 Will save, 5 Cha) instead of something like an imp (+4 Will save, 14 Cha). Yes, the imp is much cooler. But the lemure is much less likely to make its Will save or Cha check and disappear amidst a cloud of brimstone and a peal of mocking laughter, leaving you with a botched conjuration and a couple of painfully expensive wasted scrolls. So go with the lemure -- you'll be calling up cool things soon enough.

If you think you can hack it, go for it at 6th level. But starting the class at 7th is also okay. If you're going to wait until 8th, then -- as a wizard -- you might as well wait until 9th, since 8th level will give you a wizard school power.

Building towards a Diabolist:

Skills: Like most Paizo PrCs, the Diabolist is skill-starved, with a miserable 2+Int points per level. So if you're not an Int-based caster, and not human, you're going to be placing every skill rank with exquisite care. Here are some of the skills you may want to consider.

Spellcraft -- You need three ranks of this to enter the class. But keep piling on the ranks, because you have to make that DC 20 Spellcraft check every time you conjure something. (You can take 20, but then you're on your knees with that stupid powdered silver all the dang morning.) Once you hit 12th or 13th level and can consistently get +19 before buffs, you can ignore this.

Knowledge (Planes) -- You need five ranks of this to enter the class. After that... well, technically, you need this in order to make Knowledge checks about the creatures you conjure. As a practical matter, let's face it, you're going to have the stats for bearded devils memorized PDQ once you start running around with them. But this still gets a thumbs up, because you never know when the DM is going to throw you a curve with some bizarre new sort of outsider. Also, you can use it to research true names, which is a thing you should do.

Knowledge (Religion) -- You need five ranks of this to enter the class. Once you've got that, unless you're a cleric, walk away and never look back.

Diplomacy -- This skill works on evil outsiders just like everything else. And after all, you don't WANT to fill up the Outer Planes with creatures who nurse festering hatred and resentment towards you. As a practical matter, at the end of their service you want them reasonably content -- or dead. So dropping a rank or two in this isn't a waste, especially if you don't have a "face" character around to help you. And, hey, it's a class skill for Diabolists.

Intimidate -- The way this skill is structured makes it less useful to you than Diplomacy. Avoid.

Ride -- What is this doing here? It's not a class skill for diabolist, nor for any class that's likely to become a diabolist. On the other hand, there are a few conjurable outsiders that can be ridden. If you like the idea of commanding your fiendish minions from the back of a rearing nightmare, throw a rank or two at this.

Sense Motive -- Believe it or not, evil outsiders are not always perfectly forthright and honest when dealing with the spellcasters who are binding them to service. Catching one of your devils in a dangerous half-truth could be a literal lifesaver. Put some ranks into this, and use it regularly.

Bluff -- Lying to devils is probably not a great long-term strategy; at higher levels, too many of these guys have sky-high Sense Motive skills. But you may conjure up things other than devils, after all. Elementals, for instance, have zero Sense Motive, which means that even powerful ones are painfully easy to fool. And at midlevels, this can actually be quite useful even with devils. "Yes, I conjured you up to be my bodyguard going into the Temple of Horrendous Doom. A formality, really -- it's almost certainly entirely safe." If you manage to fool the creature, you should get be able to lie your way to a better check DC. (Of course, if you fail, you should get the worst DC possible.) This skill is also very useful if the campaign takes you into regions where devil-summoning is viewed askance. "No, I'm an optometrist actually."

If you can cover these and still have ranks left over, spend on skills as for a normal PC -- Perception, Knowledges, what have you.

Feats: If you're playing a blast-y Diabolist, then go and look at some of the guides for blasters. No rush, we'll wait. Meanwhile, here are some other feats you'll want to consider.

Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration -- Is this even a question? Not only will you regularly be dealing with evil outsiders, but you'll inevitably sometimes be giving some of them reason to hate you. And spell resistance is one way a called creature can break out of your circle. You absolutely must have these feats. The only question is when to take them. I'd recommend taking SP at either 7th or 9th level, and GSP no later than 13th.

Spell Focus (Conjuration) -- You want this to crank up the Will save DCs on your Planar Bindings, especially at higher levels. And at middle levels there are lots of perfectly excellent spells that it works with, including web, glitterdust, sleet storm, hungry pit, and cloudkill. Take this at 3rd or 5th level and you'll get lots of use out of it.

Leadership -- If the other PCs aren't forthcoming with help in your conjuring rituals, go and get it yourself. See below for discussion of how this can play out.

Craft Wand -- Take this if you're doing the "wand-wielding imp companion" thing; you'll save a lot of money.

Extend Spell -- Consider either this feat or a Rod of Lesser Metamagic (Extend). The Rod is less of an investment and is probably your better bet, but OTOH this is one of the better metamagic feats... anyway: you want this at levels below 11th, so that you can cast buff spells with a duration that's longer than the casting time of your Planar Binding (10 minutes). Cast Extended Eagle's Splendor at 9th level, and you now have another +2 on your opposed Charisma checks (and on your Bluff and Diplomacy rolls, too, if you're going that route) all through the casting and for 8 minutes beyond. And then cast Extended Protection From Evil and Extended Shield on yourself and any helpers, just in case things go terribly wrong.

Wizard Schools and Spells:

If you're a wizard, what schools are good, and what spells should you take?

Abjuration -- This is a weak school for most purposes, but for a Diabolist it's actually okay. You're going to be taking a lot of abjuration spells anyway. And if you take the banishment subschool, at 8th level you get the Aura of Banishment, which from your POV is a highly desirable safety buff. (Of course, this means you have to be a wizard for eight levels before starting on Diabolist.)

Conjurer -- Obvious, right? The Infernal Binder subschool, while not as great as you might hope, is pretty good for you... +3 to Knowledge (Planes), the chance to grab other peoples' summoned monsters, and an imp familiar. (Once you get the imp companion you end up with an imp on each shoulder. One serves you, the other serves Hell.) The teleportation subschool is also fine, though limited by the fact that it uses wizard levels, so your dimension door power will probably never get beyond 15'.

Divination -- This is almost worth taking just for the Prescience power of the Foresight subschool. You get to double-roll every Cha check, and things like rolls to overcome SR as well. This is huge. Throw in the ability to act in a surprise round and a nice little Init bonus, and this school is surprisingly strong for you. Of course, now you have to be a Diviner and take a bunch of Divination spells. Nothing's perfect.

Enchantment -- Not a strong school for a class that's blasting a lot and dealing with creatures with SR and high Will saves. Still, unlike most wizards you actually use Bluff and Diplomacy.

Evocation -- A fine school for you. The Admixture subschool is great for a blaster, and you'll end up with five types instead of four.

Illusion -- Thematic, but not a good choice mechanically. None of the school or subschool powers will help you do what you do best.

Necromancy -- See Illusion.

Transmutation -- +2 to Con or Dex by the time you become a Diabolist is pretty sweet. Then you take the Enhancement subschool and use Augment to buff your minions. If you take 8 levels of wizard, then the Perfection of Self power -- +4 to any stat for one round -- has all kinds of uses; check if your DM will allow it to affect opposed Cha checks.

Spells -- This is a partial list of spells that are likely to be of interest to you.

Level 1

Protection from Evil/whatever -- Kind of a no-brainer.

Level 2

Eagle's Splendor -- Once you're 11th level (or 6th with Extend Spell) you can cast this before casting Planar Binding and get the benefit of it on Cha checks.
Fox's Cunning -- As Eagle's Splendor if you're an Int-based caster.
Misdirection -- If you're living someplace where having an evil aura is an issue.
Owl's Wisdom -- As Eagle's Splendor if you're a Wis-based caster.
See Invisibility -- Many devils can go invisible at will. Once you have the money, pay the 5,000 gp to have Permanency cast so you have this at all times.

Level 3

Agonize -- A spell to punish outsiders that... allows SR and a Fort save, which is most outsiders' best save. Still, worth a try, especially as it's the only spell that specifically addresses this need for you.
Haste -- I hate this spell; it's way overpowered for third level, which is why everyone uses it. Nonetheless, if you're leading a bunch of called creatures into battle, it's a very useful tactical mass buff.
Magic Circle Against Evil/whatever -- You must have this spell.
Protection from Energy -- Get it if you're regularly conjuring elementals or other creatures that use a particular energy attack.

Level 4

Enervation -- A fine spell for dealing with difficult outsiders. You did take Spell Penetration, right?
Dimensional Anchor -- You must have this spell.
Lesser Planar Binding -- You must have this spell.
Scrying -- If you're sending your conjured creatures out on missions, you'll want to be able to keep track of them. Make sure you get a toenail clipping or something.

Level 5

Planar Adaptation -- If you're planning to visit Hell at some point.
Planar Binding -- You must have this spell.
Dismissal -- This should be a great spell, but is merely an okay one, because it is affected by SR and also grants a Will save. That said, if something gets loose, this is a spell to have ready.

Level 6
Antimagic Field -- Works on summoned creatures but not conjured ones.
Geas-Quest -- SR but *no* saving throw. Use this to make sure your creatures are staying in line, especially the high Will-save ones.
Contingency -- At 15th level, this can be used to auto-teleport you away from danger. At lower levels, it can be used to auto-activate a range of buffs and other helpful effects.
Legend Lore -- You can use this to get information on named individual outsiders.

Level 7

Banishment -- More powerful version of Dismissal.
Greater Planar Binding -- You must have this spell.
Teleport Trap -- If you've made some enemies among outsiders (and by this point in your career, you probably have) cast this on your living quarters every couple of weeks. Be creative about what's waiting at the destination, but a permanent Alarm spell and some symbols or other outsider-affecting magical traps are probably good.
Trap the Soul -- Not actually that great unless you know the creature's name, or have lots and lots of money to burn on gems that shatter when the spell fails.

Level 8

Binding -- A powerful bargaining tool. I'd rule that the demonstrated ability to bind outsiders of a particular type would give you a bonus on your Cha checks against outsiders of that same type -- "Do you want to end up like Bob here?" Check whether your DM agrees.
Dimensional Lock -- If you're high enough level, and don't care about whatever attention the "shimmering emerald barrier" attracts, cast this periodically to ward your quarters against unwanted visitors from other planes.
Euphoric Tranquility -- No Will save! Does get SR, unfortunately.
Moment of Prescience -- Win that Cha check!
Polar Ray -- Swap in hellfire to make this a very flexible ranged touch attack.
Sympathy -- If you cast this on your conjuring area, it can make the called creature happy to be there; I'd rule that this would move its attitude a step or two to the better. Unfortunately the creature gets a Will save and SR too.

Level 9

Gate

Your Imp Companion:

The imp companion is one of the most popular class features of the Diabolist class, and with good reason. The imp is a useful tool to begin with – it can fly, turn invisible at will, is telepathic, has constant detect good and detect magic, and a number of useful SLAs including augury once/day and commune (6 questions) once/week. This alone makes it an excellent companion for low and mid-level PCs. But the diabolist’s imp scales with level – it gains HD, feats, skills, and new SLAs as you level up. And it advances according to your combined caster + diabolist levels. (Under the RAW, you could argue that it your diabolist levels count double, since diabolist is a caster class -- in other words, that a wizard 5 / diabolist 5 would get a level 15 imp familiar. But this seems to be one of the rare cases where sloppy language made it past Paizo editing. A companion who advances with your level is plenty good enough. Don't be greedy.)

One popular option is to give the imp a wand and useit to make wand attacks. Activating a wand is a DC 20 Use Magic Device check, with +2 on the check if the user has activated that particular device before. UMD is not a class skill for imps, and the creature’s Cha is only 14. So, if you want your imp to fly around delivering wand attacks, it may be worth investing one of the creature’s feats in Skill Focus: Use Magical Device. The DC does not scale with the power of the wand, so you can equip the imp with a “golf bag” of wands of various levels (fireball, grease, etc.) for use as needed. If you’re going this route, investing a feat of your own in Craft Wand is recommended.

Whether you go this route or not, make sure you have your imp cast augury and commune regularly – knowledge is power, and these are very useful spells.

CAUTION: Do not use your imp as a wand platform until its UMD bonus is up to at least +10, as otherwise you are in danger of a wand mishap – i.e., the imp fireballing your party instead of the enemy.

NOTE: If you lose your imp companion, the ritual to get a new one takes 24 hours of your time, but costs NO money. That’s right – replacing your imp is absolutely free! So unless you’re up against a clock with no chance to take a day off, don’t be shy about putting your little buddy in harm’s way… he’s expendable. Hard cheese for him but, hey, that’s life in Hell. And, really, what's more fun than greeting your new companion with a friendly, "I hope you don't fail me as pathetically as your late predecessor"?


Gregory Connolly wrote:


Spell Specialization is a very strong feat, but more for Evokers than Conjurers. You have to pick one spell, and it has to have some part that scales with level. Then you end up taking Intensified Spell and you want Magical Lineage and Empower and it starts consuming your whole build. I either build for it specifically or skip it entirely.

I would agree with this. A diabolist makes a good blaster because of Hellfire substitution, but if you have a lot of conjured minions you'll want to use spells buffing and defending them too.

There is no "best" build for a wizard diabolist, but here's one possible list of feats for your consideration.

1 Scribe Scroll (Wizard bonus feat)
1 Improved Initiative (Human)
1 Craft Wand
3 Spell Focus (Conjuration)
5 Craft Wondrous Item
5 Fast Study (Wizard bonus / arcane discovery)
7 Leadership (if DM is OK with it; otherwise Extend Spell)
9 Spell Penetration
11 Greater Spell Penetration <- trust me, if you're dealing with outsiders a lot you want this

cheers,

Doug M.


The Worst Of The Plagues wrote:

hello ^-^

i'm planning to create a Devil summoner..
my question are:

- Wich class is the best-oriented to do that?
- Feats, traits that allow me to do so better/earlier?

Thank you ^-^

We've put together over 20 themed summoning lists - the one we have for 'Lawful Evil Outsiders' (in other words, Devils) is as follows:

SMI
Tiefling
Snake, Viper, Fiendish

SMII
Devil, Lemure
Wolf, Fiendish

SMIII
Devil, Imp
Snake, Constrictor, Fiendish

SMIV
Devil, Gaav
Devil, Zebub

SMV
Devil, Barbazu
Devil, Magaav

SMVI
Devil, Levaloch
Devil, Erinyes

SMVII
Devil, Osyluth
Devil, Phistophilus

SMVIII
Devil, Hamatula
Devil, Ayngavhaul

SMIX
Devil, Gelugon
Devil, Gylou

At each level the monsters chosen are CR appropriate - your selection is more limited, but it better fits in the theme of your character. Hopefully your GM will allow you to use this list for your Master Summoner or Cleric character. We also have lists for Neutral Evil Outsiders (Daemons & Divs) and Chaotic Evil Outsiders (Demons).

Incidentally, don't overlook Cleric as an option, especially with the feat Sacred Summoning and our specialized summoning lists. In Way of the Wicked we had a Lawful Evil Dwarf Cleric (Heroism & Madness domains) who at lower levels focused on summoning and at higher levels began using Planeshift as the ultimate save or suck (I banish you to Hell!)


The Worst Of The Plagues wrote:

not really what i'm asking.. i wanted some tips about how to role(and how kind of) evil PC

Role-playing is personal, what works for me may not for you, and so forth. Still, here are some ideas.

-- Play it hard. If you're going to be a diabolist, be a DIABOLIST. Grow a pointy little goatee and wear red and black. Worship Asmodeus. Have minions. Say things like "Fools!" and "How dare you!" and "I shall destroy you all!" Gloat.

-- "Evil" is a slippery concept, but in game terms it means you have a lot of freedom. _You don't have to be the good guy_. You don't care if the princess is rescued or the hostages are freed. You may sometimes *act* like a good guy... but you're killing the dragon to gain its treasure, not to save the poor villagers from its fiery breath.

-- On the other hand, "evil" doesn't mean "sick bastard". Most of us are not looking for graphic descriptions of rape and torture at our gaming table. Most people do not want to game with King Joffrey or Hannibal Lecter. There are many different kinds of evil. You're looking for the cool pulp evil, not the creepy sick evil. You should aim for "I find your lack of faith disturbing" instead of "Leave her face... I like her pretty".

-- Also, evil does not mean COMPLETELY evil. You may be perfectly willing to torture captives for information, sacrifice minions for your own safety, lie, cheat, steal, and worship an infernal god of darkness... but you may have lines you won't cross. Maybe you don't hurt children. Or cats.

-- Finally, don't use evil as an excuse for PvP. (Playing a Lawful Evil character helps here. LE characters are natural team players!) I

Are these the sorts of things you're looking for?

Doug M.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
The Worst Of The Plagues wrote:

not really what i'm asking.. i wanted some tips about how to role(and how kind of) evil PC

Role-playing is personal, what works for me may not for you, and so forth. Still, here are some ideas.

-- Play it hard. If you're going to be a diabolist, be a DIABOLIST. Grow a pointy little goatee and wear red and black. Worship Asmodeus. Have minions. Say things like "Fools!" and "How dare you!" and "I shall destroy you all!" Gloat.

-- "Evil" is a slippery concept, but in game terms it means you have a lot of freedom. _You don't have to be the good guy_. You don't care if the princess is rescued or the hostages are freed. You may sometimes *act* like a good guy... but you're killing the dragon to gain its treasure, not to save the poor villagers from its fiery breath.

-- On the other hand, "evil" doesn't mean "sick bastard". Most of us are not looking for graphic descriptions of rape and torture at our gaming table. Most people do not want to game with King Joffrey or Hannibal Lecter. There are many different kinds of evil. You're looking for the cool pulp evil, not the creepy sick evil. You should aim for "I find your lack of faith disturbing" instead of "Leave her face... I like her pretty".

-- Also, evil does not mean COMPLETELY evil. You may be perfectly willing to torture captives for information, sacrifice minions for your own safety, lie, cheat, steal, and worship an infernal god of darkness... but you may have lines you won't cross. Maybe you don't hurt children. Or cats.

-- Finally, don't use evil as an excuse for PvP. (Playing a Lawful Evil character helps here. LE characters are natural team players!) I

Are these the sorts of things you're looking for?

Doug M.

In humanity, the root of all evil is selfishness, just as the root of all good is selflessness. Keep that in mind - an evil character looks out for #1 and usually leans pretty hard on the 'what's in it for me' trope. he won't risk himself for others unless it benefits him greatly to do so, he won't have any problem lying and deceiving and the lives or sentiments of others are relatively meaningless to him. It does not necessarily mean he spends his free time plotting a way to main and slaughter as many people as possible unless he has some sort of madness driving him.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
The Worst Of The Plagues wrote:

not really what i'm asking.. i wanted some tips about how to role(and how kind of) evil PC

Role-playing is personal, what works for me may not for you, and so forth. Still, here are some ideas.

-- Play it hard. If you're going to be a diabolist, be a DIABOLIST. Grow a pointy little goatee and wear red and black. Worship Asmodeus. Have minions. Say things like "Fools!" and "How dare you!" and "I shall destroy you all!" Gloat.

-- "Evil" is a slippery concept, but in game terms it means you have a lot of freedom. _You don't have to be the good guy_. You don't care if the princess is rescued or the hostages are freed. You may sometimes *act* like a good guy... but you're killing the dragon to gain its treasure, not to save the poor villagers from its fiery breath.

-- On the other hand, "evil" doesn't mean "sick bastard". Most of us are not looking for graphic descriptions of rape and torture at our gaming table. Most people do not want to game with King Joffrey or Hannibal Lecter. There are many different kinds of evil. You're looking for the cool pulp evil, not the creepy sick evil. You should aim for "I find your lack of faith disturbing" instead of "Leave her face... I like her pretty".

-- Also, evil does not mean COMPLETELY evil. You may be perfectly willing to torture captives for information, sacrifice minions for your own safety, lie, cheat, steal, and worship an infernal god of darkness... but you may have lines you won't cross. Maybe you don't hurt children. Or cats.

-- Finally, don't use evil as an excuse for PvP. (Playing a Lawful Evil character helps here. LE characters are natural team players!) I

Are these the sorts of things you're looking for?

Doug M.

I agree with these thoughts, and I would add that lawful types are often focused on status. Directing that externally (How dare anyone think that the Max Axehand's Champions of Good are better adventurers than us? Let's go out and slay a dragon so everyone will know better.) is usually beneficial to the group dynamic. Directing it internally is a bad idea (I'm the leader or else!).


thank you all ^-^

@Doug: oh yes.. i really love to play an evil as you suggested.. but i have a big problem called Paladin XD!

i'm trying to create an evil diabolist that act behind the mask.. the false friend :)

Also i wanna ask: can you suggest a stats build with 20 BP?


Okay, a paladin is a problem. A serious problem.

1) If you're evil, he will detect it, because he has Detect Evil at will. Once you hit 6th level, you radiate mild evil all the time. You can invest in a device that blocks alignment, but still -- if you're evil, he will eventually figure it out.

2) Even if you block alignment detection, you still ARE evil, and you'll still be inclined to behave evilly and do evil things. You can invest ranks in Bluff and lie to the paladin, but eventually he'll figure it out. (Also, you have an imp companion who radiates evil. And you're constantly conjuring devils.)

3) Paladins CANNOT knowingly be in a party with an evil character. If they do, they lose their paladin abilities! So once he knows you are evil, one of you will have to leave the party.

4) In theory, you can solve the problem by being Lawful Neutral -- that's an allowable alignment for a Diabolist. However, the whole point of being a Diabolist is to conjure devils to serve you. A paladin is not going to like that, especially if you have the devils traveling around with the party. (Which you should if you want to get best advantage from the Diabolist class.)

TLDR: playing a Diabolist in the same party will be very difficult. Are you sure you want to try this?

Doug M.


Everybody argues about builds, but with 20 points I'd suggest:

Str 8 <- because at low levels 7 Str means you can't carry your own backpack
Con 12
Dex 12
Int 15 <- add +2 for human =17, level 4 boost to 18.
Wis 12
Cha 15

This is rather MADdy for a wizard character, but Diabolists are kind of MADdy -- you need a good Cha score. Also, you'll have a perfectly okay 18 Int at 4th level. Getting a better Int modifier requires Int 20, which means putting 13 BP into Int. Cha needs at least 5 BP, so that would leave you just 2 BP for everything else. Doesn't seem worth it to me -- especially with a build that will do a lot of summoning. (Because summoning spells don't care about your Int. No spell DCs!) Take your 8th level bump on Cha, because you'll need it and also because it's cool... how often do you play a wizard with 16 Cha?

Again, I'm sure other people will disagree -- that's the nature of these things -- but that would be my suggestion.

Doug M.


i really wants to play a Diabolist, and this campaign is the only where i can play it.

there's another PC who emanate evil, because he took a strange object (like a philactery or something like that), but the paladin seems to look to him with suspect but never saying nothing on him (it's not the classic paladin i think...)

the object to block "emanate evil" i think i can get it (or create a thing like an artifact) talking with DM (pretty sure he'll agree) and maybe give one to my Imp too.

btw i think paladin can stay with an evil in party, if they have strong reason... now gotta find this reason:

-maybe i'm in the same division (there are somes.. Draco Division, another one whe don't know and Leo Division that's the paladin division)?

-maybe i'm a member of his family? Cousin, brother, sister's boyfriend?

-maybe i can bluff saying that my powers are a curse or a disease?

-maybe who present me to the party is a good NPC that the party trust?

don't know, need help to find a way to make that possible...(if is it)

for the stats i'm perfectly right with yours :) i will play an uncommon wizard XD!

str i think we can dump that... we have a strong barbarian that can carry on bags, or maybe i can talk with my DM to let me have a servant(who can't help me doing nothing but that) that carry on for me.
Or maybe an horse.

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