Examples of Paladins in literature, real world legend, movies etc.


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I was trying to explain a paladin to a non-pathfinder gamer by using examples. I came up with Superman, Charlemagne, Paksenarrion and Joan of Arc. I am sure there are others. Your help is appreciated.

Thanks

Sovereign Court Contributor

Arjuna from the Mahabharata was famed for his honour and fairness in combat.

Galahad is an obvious example, as is Perceval. Lancelot could be understood as a paladin of love (his internal conflicts are a great example of the code and its roleplaying possibilities).

The Bogatyrs of Russian legend include some paladin-esque characters. Ilya Muromets would be the best example.

The Jedi in the Star Wars saga were at first imagined by Lucas in early drafts as a palace guard rather than a religious order - the name "paladin" means 'of the palace,' and essentially means "royal guard."

The cinematic Musketeers sometimes act like paladins, but in the novels (and the current BBC series) they are more unscrupulous. They are, however, royal guards, as well.

The character class, however, was based on the depiction of Ogier the Dane (alias Holger Danske) in Poul Andersen's "Three Hearts and Three Lions." He is one of Charlemagne's paladins. Ironically, he is rebellious - though out of honour; if we applied the code to him he would use a lot of atonements.

Liberty's Edge

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Saladin could be interpreted as a paladin easily enough .


Bahzell from David Weber's War God's Own series.


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If you are looking for more of a personality type than historical parrallel, someone like Booth from Bones has a personality type and value system that could work. Captain America always struck me as someone who was paladinish as well.


You already mentioned Charlemagne...it's his 12 Paladins (I think that's the number) which actually gives the class it's name I believe.

King Arthur and his knights of the round table were given as examples in previous editions, though not all the knights were paladins (probably for obvious reasons).

I'd say the Jedi are somewhat close for some of them, such as Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda...though kind of in a monk/Paladin type mix.


the crusaders? considering they saw all who do not follow their religion as little more than orcs


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Snorri Nosebiter wrote:
the crusaders? considering they saw all who do not follow their religion as little more than orcs

Well,... no. Not in the slightest.

Paladins are bastions of actual good, not merely what the individual paladin believes to be good. In the case of the Arthurian legends, for example, there's a strong element of "Good is following God's will, not your own."

So unless you're willing to stipulate that the crusaders were correct in seeing all infidels as orcs, then the crusaders were probably fighters who mistakenly identified themselves as paladins. In a magic-free environment this is easier than you think.


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Snorri Nosebiter wrote:
the crusaders? considering they saw all who do not follow their religion as little more than orcs

All crusaders? No. The religious orders like Knights Templar or Knights Hospitaler? Yes. Especially if you go with the idealized version rather than the "dark, hidden evil" way they've been portrayed at times.

I like Sparhawk from David Edding's Elenium series. Lawful Good, definitely not Lawful Stupid and the kid gloves are off. Bevier from the same series is another good example and probably closer to what your average gamer thinks of Paladins, much more focus on law and good but still not Lawful Stupid.


Considering that Paksenarrion is based on a 1st Edition AD&D paladin (sufficiently so that it's mildly surprising the author wasn't sued), you probably can't get any closer than that.

Captain America, mentioned above, is a great example. The Thor of Lee, Simonson and De Falco also more than qualifies.

The Hospitallers were, as a general rule, somewhat purer of heart and noble intent than the Templars. Their commitment to healing kept them a lot less bloodthirsty—which is not to say they didn't throw down when necessary.

EldonG wrote:
Saladin could be interpreted as a paladin easily enough.

There's quite a bit of scholarly evidence that indicates the historical Saladin's reputation for nobility and goodness was somewhat exaggerated ... but there's no doubt that the legendary Saladin qualifies.


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If you want to see the perfect example of Paladinhood watch Camelot the musical. The scene where Lancelot wills a fallen knight back to life at the jousting tournament is the purest 'laying on hands' example you could want.


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Optimus Prime from Transformers is a good Example of a Paladin Mindset, as is Ichigo Kurosaki, though Ichigo is more of a Chaotic Good Paladin dedicated to honor, justice, and protecting the weak, innocent and helpless no matter what ends he must accomplish. he even became a demonic being so he could use the powers for the greater good in his career as a paladin.

Artemis from Greek Myth on some of her more wholesome and less morally questionable portrayals can be seen as a paladin whom does the bow wielding huntress thing, chaste and pure, a heroine of sorts. but all of the greek pantheon has some paladinlike portrayals in some sects and stories.


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If you've read the Dresden Files series, the Knights of the Cross are perfect representations of paladins. Michael specially is what every roleplayer should aspire when playing a paladin.


If you have to add a chaotic good qualifier, it's probably not actually a solid example. If you're using the word demonic, you're definitely off-base.

As for proper examples: Agent Cooper from Twin Peaks.


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Captain America (not the Ultimate version).

Grand Lodge

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You're Welcome.

Spoiler:
And sorry.

However, one of my personal favorites to refer to is Jack Valentine - the DEA agent played by Ethan Hawke in Lord of War. The Hero Antagonist to Nicolas Cage's Villain Protagonist Yuri Orlav, there's a scene where Valentine has Yuri cold, but can't bust him without fabricating evidence. Instead of breaking his code, he finds the loophole and leaves Yuri in detainment for 24-hours and allows his plane intended for the smuggling of illegal weapons to African warlords to be dismantled and stolen in a VERY dangerous area.

If you want to know how a Paladin should be, watch Lord of War.

Sczarni

I would have considered Captain America more as a monk than a paladin. But I could be wrong.

Besides the knightly orders mentioned above, I have no idea at this time.


Googleshng wrote:

If you have to add a chaotic good qualifier, it's probably not actually a solid example. If you're using the word demonic, you're definitely off-base.

As for proper examples: Agent Cooper from Twin Peaks.

even as a Half-Hollow, Half-Ghoul, whatever you call it, he was Chaotic Good and all about doing the right thing, he took the Half-Hollow Template so he could use the powers for the greater good in a Heroic, though not always ethically legal manner.

he broke a few Celestial Laws, by becoming a Vizard and Not Quite Following Directions, but he was Self Sacrificing, to the point he became a Half-Hollow, put the needs of the weak, helpless and defenseless above his own, when he used stealth and deception to gain an upper hand over his enemy, essentially, they were thinking Death Angel (called soul reapers in the English dub, essentially Shinsengumi flavored Celestials), until he reveals he is chaotic good and half hollow.

a lot of the foes he faced were chaotic evil and he fought them on their own terms. in fact, he befriended many chaotic good allies with similarly questionable powers and together they fight evil.

he still does the right thing and devotes himself both to justice, and to protection of the weak, helpless and defenseless from the very fiendish beings that compromise half his being via template.

hes not a classic Gallahad or Roland, but he is a non-conventional paladin whom willingly accepted taint to oppose taint. still chaotic good though.

he may technically be a tiefling partially through the series, but he is a tiefling with honest, virtuous and wholesome intent whom despite his insubordination and lack of ability to follow orders in favor of his self sacrificing nature, puts his life on the line to protect the weak, helpless and innocent in multiple planes of existence and towards the end of the series, slew an abyssal god by being a pure and virtuous being, despite his tainted blood and his lack of ability to follow orders.

he should be considered a good example of how a paladin should have chaotic good as an opened up alignment. and how he willingly accepted the tiefling curse to fight the demons of the verse he is in.


Roland is the prototypical "paladin" being the one of Charlemagne's paladins who sacrifices himself so the army could escape.


Mike Franke wrote:
Roland is the prototypical "paladin" being the one of Charlemagne's paladins who sacrifices himself so the army could escape.

Roland Sacrificed his life to protect a king and an Army, i will give him Kudos to that

but Roland never had to fight high powered demonic foes and was never required to accept their taint through his veins to fight them grey warden style, effectively a fate many celestials would consider worse than death. the taint could consume Ichigo at any moment, and living and fighting that taint for control, so he could continue to perform heroic deeds, is a fate more emotionally painful to yourself and others than being able to die honorably protecting that you have sworn to protect.

Roland merely protected a French King

Ichigo Kurosaki regularly puts his life along the line for billions of weak, helpless and defenseless people across multiple planes against supernatural foes.


I actually missed your Roland reference, I just wanted him included.


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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

Roland merely protected a French King

Ichigo Kurosaki regularly puts his life along the line for billions of weak, helpless and defenseless people across multiple planes against supernatural foes.

OK. Are you seriously trivializing a thousand year old legend for not being as kewl as modern anime?

Seriously?


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I'm surprised no one mentioned Paladin from "Have Gun, will Travel."

Great TV series, and one of the few westerns I really enjoyed.

As a note: I did not watch the show on its original run.

Silver Crusade

Final Fantasy IV's Cecil Harvey was my first paladin.

Come to think of it, that game was big on redemption themes too... Man, that game may have had a bigger impact on younger me than I thought.


Jaelithe wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:

Roland merely protected a French King

Ichigo Kurosaki regularly puts his life along the line for billions of weak, helpless and defenseless people across multiple planes against supernatural foes.

OK. Are you seriously trivializing a thousand year old legend for not being as kewl as modern anime?

Seriously?

not intentionally, but i guess i was fan girling, for a bit, but i sometimes forget in our own world, we don't have the supernatural occurences that could threaten multiple entires planes of existence, so it is really an unfair comparison.

i guess it is pretty hard for something that happened 1,000 years ago to reach the exaggeration of factor of something that came 1,000 years later, in an era where people crank up the epicness to 11.

i understand that Ichigo is a Mary-Sue, as are the protagonists of most works, and i am sure if such circumstances would have had a chance to affect Sir Roland, he would have done something similar

but maybe i shouldn't have compared the grandiose part of an exaggerated legend to an exaggerated modern anime where the protagonist is probably 15th level instead of 3rd level and up against CR20+ foes that would only appear in anime in anime exclusive situations.

not that some of the heroes from ancient legends weren't epic, it is just that anime of specific genre take what they think is epic and make it more so by improving the scale and the power level all around.

my issue with the thousand year old legend of Sir Roland is not a lack of kewlness, but the fact it still shapes an entire character class designed in a modern game where the characters basically run around performing feats on a shonen scale and completely neglect modern works with characters that also fit the class to a less extent and would if the behavioral restrictions were loosened a bit.

my issue with paladins, is the game shoehorns them into being lawful good, though mythology, anime, and most modern medias, have given of samples of paladinlike characters of alternative alignments and even questionable morals

my issue with trying to read the wikipedia article on Roland is he is portrayed as too darn pure to really be a stick to measure against. at least loosen the behavioral stick paladins are measured against, hell allow chaotic good and even lawful neutral paladins.

Shadow Lodge

Sqwonk wrote:

I was trying to explain a paladin to a non-pathfinder gamer by using examples. I came up with Superman, Charlemagne, Paksenarrion and Joan of Arc. I am sure there are others. Your help is appreciated.

Thanks

One of those I would not include is Joan of Arc, specifically because she defies tradition (law) left and right to accomplish her goals acting on her personal revelation in defiance of established religous tradition. While defending a Lawful King, I would define her as a NG battle oracle with a campaign specific 'wrong sex' curse.

I agree with most of the other examples of above, particularly Captain America and Optimus Prime.

I'd note two Native American RW example; Crazy Horse. He routinely followed the traditions of the Lakota, following the visions that guided him (and were part of traditions of his people, in contrast with Joan). In his daily life he donated many of his possessions/talents/time supporting less well off members of his tribe, never keeping loot for himself. One of the examples of great faith was a vision he had in several years before the Little Bighorn, he was guided to fight, not because he win, but because he was told his example would make a difference in the long term, and argubly it has.

Another is Hiawatha. He was the protector/spokesman of the Great Peacemaker, the prophet who came up with the laws that created the Iroquis Confederacy.

Hope this was interesting.


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Michael Carpenter from the Dresden Files book series is my go-to example.

Dark Archive

Frank Black of the Millennium TV show.

-----------

Not a character but a phrase I read under a stained glass window in an old Catholic Church in New Orleans.

"There can be no Honor without Virtue"

That was the motto of my AD&D Paladin for the rest of his career.


Cain from "Tin Man"


El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha

Don Quixote

(Alonso Quixano, when he is living out his dream)

Liberty's Edge

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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:


my issue with paladins, is the game shoehorns them into being lawful good, though mythology, anime, and most modern medias, have...

My own personal pet peeve.

Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."

Don't care what mythology, modern media, anime, or anyone else says. Don't care who else has questionable motives, or engages in questionable means. Don't care if the standard is too rigorous.

Don't let them bring you down. Hold yourself higher.

Sovereign Court Contributor

Roland isn't as pure in later works. The "furioso" in Orlando Furioso (Orlando is the Italian name for Roland) is because of an illicit love affair.

Grand Lodge

GreyWolfLord wrote:
You already mentioned Charlemagne...it's his 12 Paladins (I think that's the number) which actually gives the class it's name I believe.

The legends of Charlemagne popularized the term "paladin" and gave it a solidly Christian bent, but the term is much older and has its roots in Rome.

Charlemagne had a lot of grand ambitions for his "empire", and he looked at the glorious old Roman empire as a model. The term "paladin" was one of the many, many Romanesque things he adopted.

Palatine Hill is one of the Seven Hills of Rome and it has all sorts of mythical and linguistic importance. It was the spot of the legendary cave where Romulus and Remus lived with their adopted wolf mother. It's the spot where Romulus killed Remus. Most importantly it was the spot where the Imperial Palace was built.

So Charlemange called his 12 best and most loyal knights "paladins" because they were high level officials and trusted servants who lived in his palace. Palatins (with a "t" instead of a "d") were the officers in charge of the ooooooold King of Rome's household (from back in the pre-empire/pre-republic days). The term was also connected to the Emperor's personal guard, and a bunch of other important places. There are dozens of examples of the "palatine"-theme in modern political and religious (mostly Catholic) offices.

Calling someone a paladin is saying that they're absolutely the best of the best. It also implies that they have tons of power, since those sort of titles were generally only given to the King/Emperor/Pope's "trusted right hand man" who can do pretty much whatever since the highest authority trusts them to do the right thing.

But for examples of Pathfinder paladins in fiction, I totally agree that Optimus Prime is a fantastic example. Ditto for the Knights of the Cross in the Dresden Files. Keldorn & Mazzy from Baldur's Gate II are great examples. A paragon Commander Shepard in Mass Effect. Also, O-Chul from Order of the Stick.


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StrangePackage wrote:
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."

And that is, of course, Captain America, a quintessential paladin.

In my opinion, they absolutely, invariably should be lawful good.


Jaelithe wrote:
StrangePackage wrote:
Doesn't matter what the press says. Doesn't matter what the politicians or the mobs say. Doesn't matter if the whole country decides that something wrong is something right. This nation was founded on one principle above all else: the requirement that we stand up for what we believe, no matter the odds or the consequences. When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world — "No, you move."

And that is, of course, Captain America, a quintessential paladin.

In my opinion, they absolutely, invariably should be lawful good.

the behavioral restrictions on Paladins are so harsh they actually kill more concepts than they encourage. if we opened up at least Neutral Good, Chaotic Good and Lawful Neutral to the Core Paladin. we could at least open up the Later Roland, a handful more Round Table Nights, and a Few Anime, Comic Book, and Mythology characters that could count as a Chaotic Good or Lawful Neutral Paladin Equivalent. such as Judge Dredd, Ichigo Kurosaki, or heck, half the Captain Ranked Celestials in Bleach, which are practically all Lawful Neutral or Neutral Good Paladins with few exceptions.

i'm not asking for Chaotic Neutral Paladins just yet, just that Neutral Good, Chaotic Good and Lawful Neutral Paladins be opened up as options


the restrictions on Paladins that have existed from 1e-5e and even exist in PF, like any other alignment restrictions, are part of an outdated era that should have never been. oh wait, the only reason 3.5e kept those restrictions was so they could sell a bunch of Variant Paladins in Later books, which is also bad design, just like alignment restrictions purely based upon fluff rather than actually balancing the mechanics.

a Paladin's alignment restriction in my opinion, is just as arbritrary as creating a class called the Scarlet Knight that required you to be female and wear a scarlet red suit of full plate armor everywhere you went to retain your class features.

it's unneccessarily restrictive and in my opinion, poor class design, taking a class that wasn't even really overpowered to begin with, but quite balanced and making them pay through the nose with unneccessary restrictions because of a tradition from 40 years ago that shouldn't have been one in the first place.


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Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
I'm not asking for Chaotic Neutral Paladins just yet, just that Neutral Good, Chaotic Good and Lawful Neutral Paladins be opened up as options

I understand your perspective.

I'm hoping even more determinedly that it never happens. In my opinion, the class should retain its strictures and simply be made far more powerful.


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Jaelithe wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
I'm not asking for Chaotic Neutral Paladins just yet, just that Neutral Good, Chaotic Good and Lawful Neutral Paladins be opened up as options

I understand your perspective.

I'm hoping even more determinedly that it never happens. In my opinion, the class should retain its strictures and simply be made far more powerful.

I also hope it never happens, but see no need for the paladin to be made more powerful. If you like playing paladins with the restrictions, play them. No need to make them more powerful to tempt people who don't like the restrictions to play them.


Jaelithe wrote:
Umbriere Moonwhisper wrote:
I'm not asking for Chaotic Neutral Paladins just yet, just that Neutral Good, Chaotic Good and Lawful Neutral Paladins be opened up as options

I understand your perspective.

I'm hoping even more determinedly that it never happens. In my opinion, the class should retain its strictures and simply be made far more powerful.

my issue with the Paladin's alignment restrictions is they kill a lot of concepts and even if they don't neccessarily lift the Paladin's Alignment restrictions, i would like to at least see alternate class style archetypes for Chaotic Good, Neutral Good and Lawful Neutral for the purpose of opening up concepts. even if they don't neccessarily call those concepts "paladins" despite bearing similar mechanics.

because to me, class is merely a package of mechanics to represent what a character can do in game and how well they do it. class mechanics and character fluff should be divorced enough to where you can use one class to represent a similar class. such as using a paladin to represent a knight, samurai or dervish depending on build.

class and alignment shouldn't be used to straightjacket the character the way the paladin has for 40 years, they should be ways to define them. and well, my problem with the paladins we had for 40 years of RPG history, is they are a straightjacket. the restrictions are too excessive and serve as a deterrent to people whom actually play with the paladin mechanics.

while i'm fine with the paladin title being restricted, the base paladin mechanics should be opened up to holy knights of other religions, alignments or gods.

we should have a class called "Crusader" which has the Paladin mechanics with lawful good "Crusaders" being referred to as "Paladins"

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

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Generic Dungeon Master wrote:

El ingenioso hidalgo don Quijote de la Mancha

Don Quixote

(Alonso Quixano, when he is living out his dream)

Don Quixote is definitely a Paladin who dumped Int AND Wis.


thejeff wrote:
I also hope it never happens, but see no need for the paladin to be made more powerful.

Though I do see a need, I think it's a moot point. Likely ain't gonna happen in the modern gaming environment, where that kind of virtue ain't kewl.

Quote:
If you like playing paladins with the restrictions, play them. No need to make them more powerful to tempt people who don't like the restrictions to play them.

Avoiding something because it might be abused by the undisciplined and/or unscrupulous is insufficient reason to not enhance the class. It simply becomes the DM's job to enforce alignment properly.

I suppose I'd settle for paladins having their Protection from Evil aura returned to them. They never should have lost it, in my opinion.


Jaelithe wrote:
thejeff wrote:
I also hope it never happens, but see no need for the paladin to be made more powerful.

Though I do see a need, I think it's a moot point. Likely ain't gonna happen in the modern gaming environment, where that kind of virtue ain't kewl.

Quote:
If you like playing paladins with the restrictions, play them. No need to make them more powerful to tempt people who don't like the restrictions to play them.

Avoiding something because it might be abused by the undisciplined and/or unscrupulous is insufficient reason to not enhance the class. It simply becomes the DM's job to enforce alignment properly.

I suppose I'd settle for paladins having their Protection from Evil aura returned to them. They never should have lost it, in my opinion.

Not so much "because it might be abused" as "Why encourage people who don't want to play paladins to play paladins"? That will just make more people want less restricted paladins. And more arguments about why they should be allowed.

If you think they're actually underpowered in comparison to other classes, that's a different story.


thejeff wrote:
Jaelithe wrote:
thejeff wrote:
I also hope it never happens, but see no need for the paladin to be made more powerful.

Though I do see a need, I think it's a moot point. Likely ain't gonna happen in the modern gaming environment, where that kind of virtue ain't kewl.

Quote:
If you like playing paladins with the restrictions, play them. No need to make them more powerful to tempt people who don't like the restrictions to play them.

Avoiding something because it might be abused by the undisciplined and/or unscrupulous is insufficient reason to not enhance the class. It simply becomes the DM's job to enforce alignment properly.

I suppose I'd settle for paladins having their Protection from Evil aura returned to them. They never should have lost it, in my opinion.

Not so much "because it might be abused" as "Why encourage people who don't want to play paladins to play paladins"? That will just make more people want less restricted paladins. And more arguments about why they should be allowed.

If you think they're actually underpowered in comparison to other classes, that's a different story.

i beleive the better solution, would be to loosen the paladins alignment restrictions and acknowledge that behavioral restrictions are a poor way to balance a class. rather than crank up the power and the behavioral restrictions up to 11, which merely encourages munchkins to find loopholes to work around the behavioral restrictions like they do today. using all sorts of stuff to justify why their paladin is still a paladin for doing things worse than lying, stealing or cheating. such as torturing victims for interrogation, lying by omission, not giving prisoners a chance to surrender, or forcing prisoners to assist them on their personal adventuring suicide missions.

the more behavioral restrictions you put on a class in a percieved attempt to percieve its balanced power, the more people will want to find loopholes within the paladins code to play the grey area character they want with the paladin class, it's just they got free power too. enforcing alignment merely leads to excuses and rationalizations, such as sending the prisoners you captured on the front lines to die fighting their brothers of blood. for example. forcing a den of kobolds you captured, to earn their freedom by killing and capturing more kobolds, or by dying in attempt to do so.

i have known people in multiple groups whom have tried to abuse paladin restrictions, whether by hindering other party members, or by working loopholes around the restrictions and jumping through hoops. i'm sure a lot of players would love a reason to be able to travel with a paladin, and they can't bring themselves to do so because of bad history involving a paladin restricting their options, or them telling the paladin to go pick mushrooms while they interrogated the prisoners/
thing is, i'm sure lots of paladins hate being told to pick mushrooms, but it is the best compromise a lot of players can come up with. so our own group, in the rare chance we get a paladin, they often take ranks in mushroom harvesting so they have something to do during interrogation time or something to do when we deal with enemy noncombatants.


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While I agree that the behavioral restrictions aren't a good way to balance the class, I like the concept of the class as it is and don't think it needs drastic changes.

If a group wants to travel with a paladin, but don't want to deal with a paladin's restrictions then they don't actually want to travel with a paladin. Much like someone who wants to play a paladin but doesn't want to be lawful good - they don't actually want to play a paladin.

And frankly, while I'm not fond of the "trapping a paladin into falling" thing, a paladin who willingly went along with the "go stand over there while we torture the prisoners" game wouldn't last long.
But then I'm not much on the evil party thing anyway. Certainly not an
evil party + paladin.

Work out a group that can actually work together. Whether that means don't play the paladin or don't play the torturers, either way works.


thejeff wrote:

While I agree that the behavioral restrictions aren't a good way to balance the class, I like the concept of the class as it is and don't think it needs drastic changes.

If a group wants to travel with a paladin, but don't want to deal with a paladin's restrictions then they don't actually want to travel with a paladin. Much like someone who wants to play a paladin but doesn't want to be lawful good - they don't actually want to play a paladin.

And frankly, while I'm not fond of the "trapping a paladin into falling" thing, a paladin who willingly went along with the "go stand over there while we torture the prisoners" game wouldn't last long.
But then I'm not much on the evil party thing anyway. Certainly not an
evil party + paladin.

Work out a group that can actually work together. Whether that means don't play the paladin or don't play the torturers, either way works.

then how about we create a generic paladinlike class that can be any alignment and has the same general package and call it "crusader" and reference in the fluff that Lawful Good Crusaders are referred to as "Paladins" because some people want the mechanics of the paladin class but not the fluff baggage associated with it, and the mechanics aren't really unbalanced. i mean the whole reason the alignment restrictions persist, is clearly because of the name, i assume, the name gets to be preserved, and people that want the mechanics, get the mechanics without being forced to take the baggage

there are some of us whom think, Full BAB, Martial Weapons, Heavy Armor, 4th level divine spells, decent swift action self heals, has a few decent combat oriented uses for charisma, we really wish there was another martial class just like this for that Armiger, Squire, or Samurai character i want to play, these mechanics would be the perfect representation and there are those whom think, "so you want chaotic evil people to be paladins and violate the established code?" truth is, i want to divorce the fluff and mechanics enough to allow interesting concepts for supernatural warriors of similar mechanics, like a Samurai, Jedi, Knight Templar, Bleach Shinigami, Holy Warrior of a Not Lawful Good but Not Chaotic Evil God, Sun-Tzu, or most Greek Demigods, while at the same time, allowing the flavor of the name to be preserved by making the flavor optional and not required as a prerequisite to take the mechanics associated with the class. i have plenty of celestial warrior concepts that would fit well with the paladin mechanics but not well with the alignment restrictions, as do many mythological and media based sources. and by paladin mechanics, i mean the actual mechanics, minus the fluff enforced code of conduct, alignment restriction and title of "paladin". a good portion of which are Samurai or Jedi-like characters whom are not mounted combatants, and don't identify themselves as paladins in the sense of title, but would have the same mechanics.

Dark Archive

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Artix. He holds himself to the highest standards so that he does not waver against evil, even though he can't use light magic at all.


If I remember correctly, there were a number of alignment variable paladins done in the Dragon, perhaps several times. 3.5 may contain some 3PP for them as well, and there might even be some for Pathfinder although the small child gnawing on my leg is making me forget. Any or all of those might be what you are looking for and can be easily modified for Pathfinder.

I mention them because I'd wager that the needs of a different alignment -- or even a different god or outlook -- might change the power set and general idea of the class.


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knightnday wrote:

If I remember correctly, there were a number of alignment variable paladins done in the Dragon, perhaps several times. 3.5 may contain some 3PP for them as well, and there might even be some for Pathfinder although the small child gnawing on my leg is making me forget. Any or all of those might be what you are looking for and can be easily modified for Pathfinder.

I mention them because I'd wager that the needs of a different alignment -- or even a different god or outlook -- might change the power set and general idea of the class.

Agreed. That's part of my problem with the "Just file the alignment restrictions off and call it a day" approach. The paladin is built around protecting, healing and inspiring.

As well as smiting evil. :)

Swift self-healing may be useful to everyone, but healing others isn't really the evil version's thing. negative energy would be more appropriate for evil ones. Same with other abilities. Less focused on helping allies and more on hurting enemies.

Different spell lists would really be needed. Or at least an expanded one with restrictions on who could take what.

Liberty's Edge

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The "fluff" is the reason for the mechanics. Where do you suppose the Paladins derive their 4th level divine spells and swift action heals and combat oriented Charisma uses?

Want a Samurai? Play a Samurai. Want a Knight Templar? Play a Cavalier. Want a Jedi Knight? Play a Magus.

You want a mechanical advantage without the baggage? Homerule away. But don't call it a Paladin. You want great power without great responsibility. That's fine, but it isn't a Paladin.


StrangePackage wrote:

The "fluff" is the reason for the mechanics. Where do you suppose the Paladins derive their 4th level divine spells and swift action heals and combat oriented Charisma uses?

Want a Samurai? Play a Samurai. Want a Knight Templar? Play a Cavalier. Want a Jedi Knight? Play a Magus.

You want a mechanical advantage without the baggage? Homerule away. But don't call it a Paladin. You want great power without great responsibility. That's fine, but it isn't a Paladin.

but the power isn't that great, even without the responsibility. at best, you are going from tier 5 to tier 4. a wizard, cleric, witch, or druid still curbstomp you and your alignment restrictions do nothing to balance powers that are already balanced

the Samurai and Cavalier are okay if you don't mind a non-magical warrior, but maybe i am looking for a samurai whom draws supernatural divine power from his dedication to personal order and strict personal regiment (Lawful Neutral Paladin Equivalent) or a Knight Templar whom picked up minor divine tricks from the church to better help him in the crusade against demons.

both of these would be better represented by a paladinlike class of possibly alternative alignment and there are many DMs whom just won't accept a 3PP or Homebrew conversion.

yes, the concepts of having decent swift action self heals, the ability to buff one's self as needed and a massive saving throw bonus based off of what used to be an otherwise useless stat sound cool and attractive on a full bab class. but as pretty much the sole defining features, and shoehorned into having a very specific pattern of behavior the legendary figures didn't even really follow outside of the legendary stories. just prevents an entire class from being able to adventure unless the party and adventure, are both built to accomodate and entirely revolve around their focus.

in other words, a party with a paladin limits party behavior to a certain paladinlike pattern and limits adventure choices to those on the lawful good agenda. some of my own groups back home want a tank whom can provide their own limited use decent swift action in combat healing, but don't want to be restricted by the paladin's restrictions, whether as the paladin itself or as the party members being oppressed by the paladins alignment restrictions.

it also removes the need to loophole everything and the need to send the paladin to harvest mushrooms or even the great many alignment headaches if we remove the paladins alignment restrictions in some manner.

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