World Creation by Popular Vote!


Homebrew and House Rules

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Indagare wrote:
sgriobhadair wrote:
Katydid wrote:
Some more thoughts behind how 'Kyslite' might work...** spoiler omitted **...
OK, I confess ... I read all of that three times, and I still don't really get it :-/
each floating island also has a floating ocean around its edges.

I'm personally not a fan of this idea; my mental image of islands in the sky rebels at the idea of water around them (most especially for the smaller ones - I want to look up and see rocks drifting overhead :) )

Quote:
Mining deposits of either one removes it from the natural process and thus can cause bad things to happen (the most obvious of which is the island permanently getting lower).

There should definitely be consequences of (over)mining kyslite; in a larger landmass you can get away with a fair amount but industrial scale mining should definitely cause problems.

Quote:
The overall idea seems to be that while kyslite might repel, it's not strong enough to tear the islands apart bit by bit (which may be due in part to the second mineral).

Which is naturally necessary for the concept to work (although doesn't necessarily need to be explicable; sometimes it's nice to have explanations, sometimes "cos of magic" is enough. And a certain level of perpetual mystery is IMHO a good thing.

Quote:
I think it's also safe to say that #9 won but that #1 will be used to explain how #9 came about (possibly with shades of #2 as Detect Magic suggested if the cause is a planar catastrophe). #8 should probably exist to some degree (at the least there's going to be some attempts at airships). This is not mutually exclusive with other bits since each of the floating islands (or close cluster of such) is likely to have its own culture and may have a different climate depending on location.

Though #8 only got two independent votes (and it's possible to get airships, kyslite-levitated vessels and magically levitated vessels without going full-magitech). Also, I'm not sure how well the pathfinder rules are suitable for going far down the magitech road?

So, with #9 established as the core scenario for the world, and #1 as it's background ... what are the next decisions for the thread to vote on and discuss?

It seems to me some important decisions are:
- how many landmasses are there, of what size?
- how many (more-or-less-) independent cultures/scenarios should there be, and how frequently should they come into contact?
- which of the original scenarios in this thread could or should be represented in their own landmass (or cluster of landmasses)?
- what are the available methods of travel between landmasses, and what are their features (range/travel time) and how prevalent are they? (presumably some cultures would travel heavily with other nearby landmasses, and may be spread across landmasses, but others would be either remote or have insufficient flying ability and be cut off.) I assume that in our principle culture, animals like pegasi, hippogriffs, gryphons and giant eagles would be relatively populous and important.


Detect Magic wrote:
How prevalent might portals be? As in, gateways that link various landmasses together and act as permanent teleportation circles? Could/would they exist, or is travel done entirely via airship?

I was thinking about this; obviously Teleportation Circle plus Permanency requires a 17th+ level spellcaster and 23,500 gp a circle (47,000 for a two-way pair); but would have HUGE practical and tactical advantages.

Too many circles (or too easily availability) though loses a lot of the fun of using flight.

I guess the most well developed nations would probably have a circle network, but they would be tightly controlled by a guild or by rulers (and levy a cost for passage). Poorer or more remote landmasses would have to be reached by "conventional" flight. Some civilisations (e.g. hobgoblins), if present, are suspicious of 'elf magic' and wouldn't knowingly allow magical flight or teleporting within their realms.


I'd imagine that people would be required to have all sorts of paperwork to cross from one continent to the next via portal. These guards would have to inspect each person carefully and make sure nothing illegal is being transported. Speaking of which, these portals would likely be controlled by some sort of trade guild that closely monitors the local economies of each location, thereby protecting them against potential abuse.

If corrupt, this trade guild might enforce monopolies on certain goods (levying taxes and disincentives against competitors entering the market; maybe going so far as to "seize" their goods; and if anyone gets in their way, they could simply pull some strings and have whomever they wish disappear into a jail cell for... well, ever).

In addition to all the paperwork/authorization required, tolls might also limit activity, with each "trip" costing hundreds (if not thousands) of gold (proportionate to the number of goods being transported).


sgriobhadair wrote:
I'm personally not a fan of this idea; my mental image of islands in the sky rebels at the idea of water around them (most especially for the smaller ones - I want to look up and see rocks drifting overhead :) )

I understand. I do think you're committing an attribution error there, though. Floating islands in ecological equilibrium =/= all floating islands have water around them. In fact, the more unstable ones would be unsupportive of advanced plants and animals, creating the barren rocks you've just described.

The thing is, the water wouldn't obscure large landmasses; not entirely. There would be land both above and below. Think of a reasonably deep liquid ring around a huge landmass like the rings around Saturn; something like this picture, although it's not entirely accurate.

A pet peeve of mine in storybuilding is when the material doesn't make sense - maybe that's just me. But I can tell you from an agricultural standpoint that if the water isn't accounted for, either magically or scientifically, a floating island won't have any significant amount of arable soil left within the first century.

- I do know that inhabitants are much more likely to be nomadic with small islands than with larger ones. You don't want the islands to be too small and spaced apart; otherwise technology and cultural advances would be severely limited, as was the case with the Pacific Islanders.


Detect Magic wrote:
How prevalent might portals be? As in, gateways that link various landmasses together and act as permanent teleportation circles? Could/would they exist, or is travel done entirely via airship?

I think they could exist, but I'm not sure how prevalent they might be. I'll put it into the vote for the next section, along with some other things. Personally, I think they might exist around major cities the way airport hubs do, but I don't think every land mass could or would have one.

That said, if there are fey involved, it could be their forests are all connected in some way.


With magic, permanent magic, it isn't inconceivable that endless water sources of one sort or another couldn't be constructed. I'd wager water management needs would give rise to entire guilds devoted to such things, which would make them immensely powerful in the political field, with regards to influence. Add in waste disposal and any other number of similar things we take for granted and you'd have the development of city states ruled by the guilds who insured basic survival needs were met.


Well, yes, but simply put the main problem isn't running out of water; it's water flowing down and carrying away all the dirt that makes up your sky island. The alternative would be to transfix the soil to the island 'by magic,' but this wouldn't be a natural process, and would need to be developed by each advanced civilization for all their inhabited islands. One final alternative which I don't support as much would be a deity/pantheon of deities that thought of this ahead of time and bound the earth to each island's respective altitude. I mean, what kind of deity thinks that much about dirt? :p


Katydid wrote:

I understand. I do think you're committing an attribution error there, though. Floating islands in ecological equilibrium =/= all floating islands have water around them. In fact, the more unstable ones would be unsupportive of advanced plants and animals, creating the barren rocks you've just described.

The thing is, the water wouldn't obscure large landmasses; not entirely. There would be land both above and below. Think of a reasonably deep liquid ring around a huge landmass like the rings around Saturn; something like this picture, although it's not entirely accurate.

A pet peeve of mine in storybuilding is when the material doesn't make sense - maybe that's just me. But I can tell you from an agricultural standpoint that if the water isn't accounted for, either magically or scientifically, a floating island won't have any significant amount of arable soil left within the first century.

- I do know that inhabitants are much more likely to be nomadic with small islands than with larger ones. You don't want the islands to be too small and spaced apart; otherwise technology and cultural advances would be severely limited, as was the case with the Pacific Islanders.

I also agree that things need to have some reason to be around. It's why I'm not a fan of fantasy kitchen sink settings - there just tend to be too many things hanging around. Sooner or later there's going to be ecological trouble (from overpopulation) or extinction (from there being too few members of a given species). Not to mention the fast and loose genetics...

As Da'ath mentioned, there are a lot of magical ways of dealing with this sort of thing (permanent create water spells, for instance). If the background of the setting has a Cataclysm involving the Inner Planes, then there could be several vortices leading to them in different places. Some of these could be on the islands themselves. Earth portals, for instance, could create new earth. This would technically be a natural process (or, as natural as anything involving magic and weird physics gets).


Katydid wrote:
A pet peeve of mine in storybuilding is when the material doesn't make sense - maybe that's just me. But I can tell you from an agricultural standpoint that if the water isn't accounted for, either magically or scientifically, a floating island won't have any significant amount of arable soil left within the first century.

Are you a geographer?

Granted; we definitely need somewhere for water to come from; some combination of none or more of each of rainfall, condensation and magical sources. I can't claim to know much about soil erosion. In terms of image, I'd like to there to be some places where there are water falls cascading away from the landmasses. I think, given the amount of mist we have around, condensation could be a major input of water to the landmasses (possibly with some artificial help).

Quote:
I do know that inhabitants are much more likely to be nomadic with small islands than with larger ones. You don't want the islands to be too small and spaced apart; otherwise technology and cultural advances would be severely limited, as was the case with the Pacific Islanders.

I think there's room for both. In the areas of our main civilisation, there will be larger landmasses, with small and medium ones nearby.

However, there would be some medium and small ones that were quite remote as well (either isolated completely or used by nomads)


What are we going to be voting for in round two, Indagare?


sgriobhadair already solved the water problem with Kyslite having a permanent field of mist around it. But since Kyslite repels then all making it water soluble will do is create rain that falls upward NOT bodies of water. Soil is an issue but I would recommend a different solution. Since this is an unstable world with close links to the elemental planes why not have bits of elemental stuff falling like rain almost seasonally even. So during the "Earth" season you get a rain of soil like stuff falling from the sky?


I would hazard 99% of all perceived problems can be solved in one word: magic. Why does this do this? Magic. Why does that do that? Oh hey, MAGIC! When one is world building, one should be pragmatic (in my opinion) and not over- explain and thus burn yourself out on minutiae that don't really matter.

MAGIC!

Edit: once you get done and you're looking for something to do, then you can fiddle with that sort of stuff (which is what I do).


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ROUND 2!

Sorry this took so long, I meant to post sooner but got caught up with stuff!

Things are getting interesting and there's already been a bit of world building as the winning scenario catches folks imagination! For right now, I'll keep posting the rounds in this thread. If folks here would rather see the different rounds in different threads I'll be sure to post them there.

There's already been some suggestions, particularly with regards to history and the nature of the sky islands. So far, the general consensus is that there was some Cataclysm that broke apart the world and reformed it into its current shape. What keeps the sky islands going is a bit trickier.

Given the current trend of the conversation, I'm going to focus on history, geology, and technology for this round. I'm perfectly willing for other people to put their ideas up or make suggestions for votes. I want to keep this interesting, but also organized.

History:

At some point in the past there was a great Cataclysm. This Cataclysm tore the world apart, leaving once-stable land floating in the air. On the larger pieces of land, people, plants, and animals managed to survive. Though things have stabilized since that terrible time, whether things are truly stable into the future is unknown.

The cause of the Cataclysm is:

1) A manifestation of the Inner Planes that tore through the system Kysla is part of. This was akin to a rogue planet coming through our system - in other words, it was seen coming well in advance. It allowed time to prepare and to ward areas. Once it struck, the habitable lands had been protected but the nature of the world was altered.

2) A War - some group of powerful magic-users (deities, mages, demons, whatever) waged war and broke the world, rending it apart. The remains are stable thanks to surviving deities/mages with physics altered to keep things liveable. Areas that are livable now were the most highly protected.

3) Some combination: deities/demons fighting and hurtling bits of the Inner Planes around while others madly tried to defend the world. Mages whose experiments brought about the end of the world through their magitech. Etc.

The nature of the skylands:

1) The Cataclysm created two new materials called kyslite and alsamore which are found in trace amounts in all water and land. Deposits of the two exist and can be mined, but there is a great risk of causing a skyland to sink. The closer to the core you get, the worse living conditions become. The best places to mine are those lands already below, but they are far from safe.

2) The Cataclysm created stable manifestation zones linked to the different Inner Planes. All skylands have some links to the Plane of Air, which is what causes them to fly (the stronger the link, the higher they fly). Links to Earth and Water also occur on the habitable lands. Fire tends to happen to the lands below.

3) The Cataclysm tore the world completely. The habitable lands are those that were shunted into temporary demiplanes to protect them. When they came out, they were no longer quite in-touch with the Prime around them thanks to the magical storms. This gives the skylands flight. Other processes may be responsible for maintaining livable conditions.

Technology (choose more than one):

1) There should be some anti-gravity or flight-enabling material around that can be mined and used for airships or similar devices (and as plot for sinking islands).

2) Airships are:


    a) Common (much like modern airplanes)
    b) Uncommon (folks know about them and see them, but one landing in town is still a big deal)
    c) Rare (people have heard of them but don't usually see them)
    d) Very Rare (almost no one has ever seen one)
    e) Non-existant

3) Permanent Teleportation portals linking cities are:


    a) Common (much like modern airports)
    b) Uncommon (folks know about them and see them, but they're usually only in cities above a certain population)
    c) Rare (people have heard of them but don't usually see them unless they visit a big city)
    d) Very Rare (almost no one has ever seen one outside a metropolis)
    e) Non-existant

4) There should be only natural or magical means to fly (winged mounts, brooms, carpets, etc).

5) There are still sea ships.

6) Carriages are the main transport on land.

7) Some form of railroad exists on land.

8) There should be flying trains instead of airships.

Dark Archive

Cause of Cataclysm 2)
Naure of Skylands 2)
Tech: 1=no
2a)
3b)
4=no
5=yes
6=yes
7=yes
8=no


For a cause of a cataclysm I like option 1. 2 feels overdone, and 3, feels too close to 2 for me.

For the reason the place is floating I'd like to see #1 also. I like the plot possibilities from overmining, and the pseudo-science it presents.

And I like 2b, and 3c for the 3rd section. This way it isn't too unbelievable that people can come and go from different islands, but not everybody can just go, willy-nilly. Even sets up possibilities for an underground (illegal kind, not dwarven) smuggling ring using aerial vehicles.


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Cause Definitely ONLY 1 :I balk at the idea of beings with the power to shatter worlds or toss whole planes around.

Nature 2

Tech 1, 2b , & 3d

trains between isles makes little sense and the isle would have to be massive to make on island trains make much sense... at which point why bother with an air world at all if the entire adventure location can be all on one huge land mass?


Cause: 1

Nature: 1

Tech:
1 - yes
2 - b
3 - d
4 - no
5 - probably (but the seas/lakes likely wouldn't be huge, so probably boats more than ships)
6 - yes
7 - no
8 - no


The Cause #1 (Planar convergence.)

The Nature of the Skylands Some combination of #1 and #3. I like the idea that the Material Realm was physically torn to bits. The islands are the remnants of this cataclysm, however, I also like the mystical ore idea. Perhaps the spellstorms wrought by the convergence of planes, which tore the Prime apart, also created these materials? Spellstorms are just too cool not to include in the setting!

Technology (1. Anti-gravity Material / Flight-stabilizer) Yes (Magically-treated kyslite ore placed into a suspension chamber; the chamber is bombarded with spell energy, generated by a complex mechanical process, amplifying the ore's properties, thus producing lift; in effect, these are artificial spellstorms.)

Technology (2. Airships) Commonplace, but we should probably agree on what they'd look like: Airship #1 OR Airship #2? Mind you, these are only estimations. Personally, I'm more of a fan of the first approach. What do you guys think?

Technology (3. Permanent Teleportation) Rare (Only in big cities, and even then, only those home to a particular Trade Confederation; this organization is run by a group of "magewrights" that produce much of the technology shared by these developed nations; the governments of these city-states are virtual puppets, controlled by the Trade Confederation; their main goal is to expand their influence, locate and mine valuable kyslite, and to develop new technologies; as such, they often come into conflict with smaller nations; while the majority of citizens are unaware of the source of their technologies, living in ignorance of the cost, these smaller nations pay the price, as all their ore is mined away; systematically, the Confederation preys upon these smaller nations, stripping them bare and leaving them in ruin).

Technology (4) While flying mounts exist, they are not the only method of transportation.

Technology (5) Yes (Airships can serve as sea vessels, too.)

Technology (6) Maybe in the smaller or less developed regions.

Technology (7) Yes, but only in the nations where the Trade Confederation is present (Lightning rails, as per Eberron, is my vote; they could float atop the rails due to the kyslite technology I detailed above.)

Technology (8) No; see above.


For the large cities, I think Ravnica art could serve as a real inspiration: Image #1, Image #2, and Image #3, for example.


While I'd go for the elemental disturbance as the cause, I'd be in favour of it being unforeseen.

Dark Archive

Am I the only one here who doesn't want Kyslite?


It doesn't have to be Kyslite. You could use Liftwood, Levistone, or any other already established fictional lighter than air material too.


Maybe? I think it's a great explanation, and as Katydid expressed earlier, it need not be known to the greater populace what process keeps the islands afloat--to them, it could simply be "magic" or the will of the gods. Wizards and other academics, on the other hand, could have discovered the truth long ago, applying what they had learned to the advent of various technologies. To me, it all seems to come together seamlessly.


I like nature 2 because then you don't need complicated physics regarding the lighter than air material. I do still want a lighter than air material though as it adds lots of flavor.


Cr500cricket wrote:
Am I the only one here who doesn't want Kyslite?

Maybe? I want armor of Kyslite. An alloyed plate armor that lets them fly like Iron Man. I'm thinking it's a metal.

The cause of the Cataclysm is:
4) When worlds collide. There was already an Atlantis like civilization when a rocky mini planet smashed into the planet, causing the current set up, and a second moon(good news for were beasts). The second moon is almost solid Kyslite.
Note that Kyslite has an almost gravitational aura. A lead brick is not going to pull marbles toward it. If two floating islands touch, they become one. Thus a small England like continent will aggressively try to find and add small floating islands.
The water loss problem is solved by gates created to the surface lakes and oceans that are seen as magic wellsprings on the floating landmasses.
The nature of the skylands: 1


Goth Guru wrote:
I want armor of Kyslite. An alloyed plate armor that lets them fly like Iron Man. I'm thinking it's a metal.

My thought is that it could be refined into a metal and incorporated into items. (Thus be used for flying machines). It would only make items buoyant though, it wouldn't propel you - you'd need something additional for that. By itself though, small amounts in armour would make incredible jumps possible.

It would make interesting arrows; get the proportion right and they wouldn't drop with distance, effectively having a practically infinite range until they hit something (or at least a very long range until air resistance slowed them enough to make them harmless).

Quote:
Note that Kyslite has an almost gravitational aura. A lead brick is not going to pull marbles toward it. If two floating islands touch, they become one. Thus a small England like continent will aggressively try to find and add small floating islands.

I'm not personally fan of merging islands; depending on how aggressive the process is - it could preclude having small 'satellite' skylands.

Aranna wrote:
I like nature 2 because then you don't need complicated physics regarding the lighter than air material. I do still want a lighter than air material though as it adds lots of flavor.

If this is for a pathfinder campaign, I don't feel the need to delve too far into the physics, especially if we define the material as magical. (Perhaps explaining that it originated from a clash between the elemental planes of air and earth with the material plane).

My mind's playing with the idea of having dangers associated with the purified material. For example (probably only one of these)
- explosiveness during purification process if not handled correctly (this could have played a part in either the past major cataclysm, or in a regional disaster). So stable ore and stable end product, but unstable intermediary state.
- the intensely magical nature of the refined metal causes random/rogue magical effects if too much of the metal is brought together
- the weird magical nature of the refined metal carries an increased risk of spellblights for casters in continued proximity.


Detect Magic wrote:
Technology (2. Airships) Commonplace, but we should probably agree on what they'd look like: Airship #1 OR Airship #2? Mind you, these are only estimations. Personally, I'm more of a fan of the first approach. What do you guys think?

Your airship #2 link is not working for me. I think #1 is too overtly marine - on kysla skyships may have been developed independently of marine transport so wouldn't have the look inspired by them.

Also, with a preindustrial culture - which I would go for - propellers aren't likely to exist - propulsion would come from the wind (using sails), or perhaps human-operated fins or elaborate wings. With the wind as a main source, we have the interesting risk of a skyship being becalmed for a time.

Would the normal thing be to have skyships launched directly from land or water (which assumes it's not too hard to change their buoyancy to take off and land), or from ports on the edges of the landmasses where they are permanently floating (which assumes their buoyancy is more static). (Or they may hover over land, boarded from towers and ladders, rather than landing). With the latter approach, while the skyships may be much bigger, there is still an advantage to having other forms of travel between skylands (flying steeds or magical flight) so that both could comfortably coexist, filling different niches.

Is there a minimum size for a viable skyship, smaller than which it is too affected by the wind (and an approximate maximum size - because refined kyslite is very expensive).

Design-wise we may see some skyships particularly inspired by the shapes of airborne creatures - both well known (birds, hippogriffs, pegasi), and legendary/occasionally seen (sphynx, dragon).

I'll add the following skycraft/skyship types I've found in a search as ideas:
Sky ship #1
Sky Ship #2
Sky Ship #3

Dark Archive

Sky ship 1) no
2+3 are ok
Airship 1 is cool and works with me
Airship 2 link doesn't work


The second airship I linked was the first result of this google search.

Dark Archive

Hell yeah!
that means a lot coming from a tiefling ;P
That ship is Bad@$$


Final Fantasy 12 is where the broken link ship is from right?

Will this world have guns?


Aranna wrote:
Final Fantasy 12 is where the broken link ship is from right?

Yep.


Aranna wrote:


Will this world have guns?

I think the dominant tech level should be an issue for voting.

I'd personally go for no guns and limited magitech.


I like Magitech. And magitech guns would be awesome.

"You're sky pirates, aren't you? Then steal me! Is that too much to ask?"


Aranna wrote:

I like Magitech. And magitech guns would be awesome.

But tech could require a lot of reworking of core rules to deal with it and to ensure some level of balance.


Magitech could simply function as magic items via the Master Craftsman feat.


I understand that paizo is releasing a book soon involving different eras should be a useful resource for some of this.


Cause: (1); a manifestation of the Inner Planes. People might still blame the wizards.
Nature: (1); materials and minerals. I prefer explanations that work and actually contribute to the plot.
Technology:
(1); Tie in the environment to industrialism.
Airships; (a); Common - but expensive. A middle class merchant might own a one or two-person skiff, while the nobility and the government might invest in a few battleships and dreadnoughts. Floating sky oceans would contribute greatly to the traditional shape of these airships; landing in the water and docking at the city harbor presents a real advantage.
Permanent Teleportation; (d); Very Rare. A few waypoints should remain from a forgotten age. Think of portal stones in the Wheel of Time.
(6); Carriages are still the main form of land transport.
(5); There are still sea ships. I do not support railroads or flying trains. Something like Dinotopia sunstone magitech intrigues me more than steampunk.


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Here is the voting so far. I included spoilers with names next to votes to help keep track of things. If you don't see your name next to an option you voted for (or I accidentally put your name next to the wrong option) please let me know so I can fix it.
*
*
*

Cause of Cataclysm:

1) Green Smashomancer, Aranna, sgriobhadair, Detect Magic, Katydid, Cr500cricket
4) Goth Guru (worlds collide to create the current scenario)

1 has six votes.
A 4th option where worlds collide has one vote.

Nature of Skylands:

1) Green Smashomancer, sgriobhadair, Goth Guru, Katydid
2) Cr500cricket, Aranna
1+3) Detect Magic

1 has four direct votes.
2 has two direct votes.
A mix of 1 and 3 has one vote.

Technology:

1
yes: Aranna, sgriobhadair, Detect Magic, Katydid
no: Cr500cricket

2a): Cr500cricket, Detect Magic, Katydid
2b): Green Smashomancer, Aranna, sgriobhadair

3d): Aranna, sgriobhadair, Katydid
3c): Green Smashomancer, Detect Magic
3b): Cr500cricket

4
no: Cr500cricket, sgriobhadair, Detect Magic

5
yes: Cr500cricket, Katydid; probably: sgriobhadair, Detect Magic

6
yes: Cr500cricket, sgriobhadair; maybe: Detect Magic, Katydid

7
no: Aranna, sgriobhadair, Katydid
yes: Cr500cricket, Detect Magic (limited)

8
no: Cr500cricket, Aranna, sgriobhadair, Detect Magic, Katydid

1 has four 'yes' votes and one 'no'.

2a has three votes.
2b has three votes.

(If I need to break the tie, I'm leaning towards b with the logic Katydid presented - they're expensive to make. I also like the idea that folks might find air travel novel enough to get excited when an airship lands nearby.)

3d has three votes.
3c has two votes.
3b has one vote.

4 has three 'no' votes and no 'yes' votes. There are certainly going to be flying mounts. I included this option mainly so if anyone was really, really opposed to magitech, they could vote for it not being here.

5 has two 'yes' votes and two 'probably' votes.

6 has two 'yes' votes and two 'maybe' votes.

7 has three 'no' votes, one 'yes' vote, and one 'yes but limited' vote.

8 has five 'no' votes and no direct 'yes' votes (there was a mention of the possibility as tie-in with 7).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm working on a gigantic reply to some of the things said so far, but I do want you guys to know there will be votes for more technology (like guns) in the next round.

I thought it would be important to first establish both how the setting came into being and the nature of the skylands (both of which were touched upon in the previous round). Similarly, the technologies are mostly based on the ideas previously presented.

Dark Archive

Yes I'm fine with Katydid's idea for airships, That's kind of what I was thinking
I change Cause of Cataclysm vote to 1) because that is what I meant.


Cr500cricket wrote:

Yes I'm fine with Katydid's idea for airships, That's kind of what I was thinking

I change Cause of Cataclysm vote to 1) because that is what I meant.

Okay. I changed the voting to reflect this. I must have missed where you changed it.

Dark Archive

Nope, I just changed a post ago


Cause of Cataclysm

Green Smashomancer wrote:
For a cause of a cataclysm I like option 1. 2 feels overdone, and 3, feels too close to 2 for me.

I know 3 seems close, but I figured at least one option for 3 was mages running something like the Large Hadron Collider with unfortunate results. Another could be related to the old expanding Earth theory (which makes a weird amount of sense in Pathfinder, given how demiplanes tend to be formed). Trickster deities are also known for doing things that end up causing a lot of trouble.

Aranna wrote:
Cause Definitely ONLY 1: I balk at the idea of beings with the power to shatter worlds or toss whole planes around.

To be honest, I included #2 for the Cataclysm because it is pretty much the standard fantasy reason for why things are the way they are. I am also not much of a fan of beings juggling worlds around like Silver Age Superman.

sgriobhadair wrote:
While I'd go for the elemental disturbance as the cause, I'd be in favour of it being unforeseen.

The one problem I see with it being unforeseen is how to explain survivors. I think the smaller bits of habitable areas are easily explained if the size of them are relative to how much protection was given: the more protection, the larger the skyland. Being aware of the threat allows for better planning and more survival.

Nature of Skylands

Green Smashomancer wrote:
For the reason the place is floating I'd like to see #1 also. I like the plot possibilities from overmining, and the pseudo-science it presents.

So far 1 is in the lead. To judge by the comments, you’re not the only one that likes the possibilities of overmining and how it could be used for pseudo-scientific.

Detect Magic wrote:
The Nature of the Skylands Some combination of #1 and #3. I like the idea that the Material Realm was physically torn to bits. The islands are the remnants of this cataclysm, however, I also like the mystical ore idea. Perhaps the spellstorms wrought by the convergence of planes, which tore the Prime apart, also created these materials? Spellstorms are just too cool not to include in the setting!

I think it’s certainly within the realm of reason that some new materials could come into existence thanks to the convergence of various planar energies. I think there will end up being spellstorms. Certainly it seems most folks are in favor of some kind of lighter-than-air material being around.

sgriobhadair wrote:
I'm not personally fan of merging islands; depending on how aggressive the process is - it could preclude having small 'satellite' skylands.

There could be some kind of limit to the merging. I think some merging is inevitable: more land is more land, after all. It could be possible that merging too much land together causes a skyland to start sinking. This could, however, lead to something like an aggressive nation trying to create the largest ‘satellites’ it can—and it would give justification to rail systems that link them. Something like the Danyang–Kunshan Grand Bridge might not be out of place. The pillars could be supported by kyslite.

Technology

Green Smashomancer wrote:
And I like 2b, and 3c for the 3rd section. This way it isn't too unbelievable that people can come and go from different islands, but not everybody can just go, willy-nilly. Even sets up possibilities for an underground (illegal kind, not dwarven) smuggling ring using aerial vehicles.

*nods* I think the others so far feel about the same way. Most everyone seems to think that airships should be relatively common while permanent teleportals should be relatively rare.

Aranna wrote:
trains between isles makes little sense and the isle would have to be massive to make on island trains make much sense... at which point why bother with an air world at all if the entire adventure location can be all on one huge land mass?

I felt I at least needed to give trains an honorable mention. They tend not to show up in fantasy settings much even though airships do (which is a little odd since they are much more plausible). If there is some merging as mentioned, trains could be useful to travel by land. Similarly, if there are collective islands close enough, tracks could help to link them. That said, I suspect the majority of travel will be by air and that the largest bits of land might not be bigger than England.

Detect Magic wrote:
Technology (1. Anti-gravity Material / Flight-stabilizer) Yes (Magically-treated kyslite ore placed into a suspension chamber; the chamber is bombarded with spell energy, generated by a complex mechanical process, amplifying the ore's properties, thus producing lift; in effect, these are artificial spellstorms.)

This makes sense. It could also fit with what sgriobhadair mentioned.

sgriobhadair wrote:

My thought is that it could be refined into a metal and incorporated into items. (Thus be used for flying machines). It would only make items buoyant though, it wouldn't propel you - you'd need something additional for that. By itself though, small amounts in armour would make incredible jumps possible.

It would make interesting arrows; get the proportion right and they wouldn't drop with distance, effectively having a practically infinite range until they hit something (or at least a very long range until air resistance slowed them enough to make them harmless).

My mind's playing with the idea of having dangers associated with the purified material. For example (probably only one of these)
- explosiveness during purification process if not handled correctly (this could have played a part in either the past major cataclysm, or in a regional disaster). So stable ore and stable end product, but unstable intermediary state.
- the intensely magical nature of the refined metal causes random/rogue magical effects if too much of the metal is brought together
- the weird magical nature of the refined metal carries an increased risk of spellblights for casters in continued proximity.

To take aspects of both, kyslite has a weird magical field around it. It can be magically treated in resonance chambers that amplify the ore’s properties. However, this effectively creates a small, artificial spellstorm. If the chambers are not calibrated correctly, bits of spellstorm energy can escape and, at best, will cause an explosion. At worst, it creates spellblights and may even cause mutations in non-spellcasters. Raw kyslite is relatively safe in small amounts, but large amounts create wild magic effects. Kyslite needs a special process to be refined for uses other than in airships (such as armor) otherwise some random magical effect ends up happening.

Detect Magic wrote:

Technology (3. Permanent Teleportation) Rare (Only in big cities, and even then, only those home to a particular Trade Confederation; this organization is run by a group of "magewrights" that produce much of the technology shared by these developed nations; the governments of these city-states are virtual puppets, controlled by the Trade Confederation; their main goal is to expand their influence, locate and mine valuable kyslite, and to develop new technologies; as such, they often come into conflict with smaller nations; while the majority of citizens are unaware of the source of their technologies, living in ignorance of the cost, these smaller nations pay the price, as all their ore is mined away; systematically, the Confederation preys upon these smaller nations, stripping them bare and leaving them in ruin).


Technology (7) Yes, but only in the nations where the Trade Confederation is present (Lightning rails, as per Eberron, is my vote; they could float atop the rails due to the kyslite technology I detailed above.)

This makes a lot of sense. The Trade Confederation might allow for skyland wrangling and so there would still be hovering ‘satellites’ circling around main masses that are there solely to be exploited. Probably there are individuals or even organizations fighting the Trade Confederation. Probably the Trade Confederation keeps a very good PR to make itself look like what everyone wants. I also imagine there are probably some folks (or even a lot of folks) who work directly for the Trade Confederation without realizing all of the nasty things it does.

If there are rival magewright guilds then the Trade Confederation might only be one (but probably a pretty major one). If there are two major rivals, it could be like having Luthorcorp (and/or Hammer Industries) (on team evil) vs Stark Industries (and/or Wayne Enterprises) (on team good).


See I have seen whole world books devoted to just an England sized campaign area. Players need not ever have it matter that they are on an air world if they never leave land. I offer that the island sizes should range from the tiniest rocky things all the way up to about the size of Ireland at the top end.

The reason I don't like rail between isles is because rails depend on a static route and since floating islands are always moving how do you build a static rail to one? The rail pylons would always be drifting out of sync with each other. The rails would bend and break. Even rails made of lightning (which are immune to bending) would drift out of range of the previous pylon occasionally leaving the train to plummet into the maelstrom below. If you correct this and have the train keep itself aloft (very doable with lighter than air materials) then the train stops being a train so much as a linked line of airships or a tug boat towing a line of barges. No rail needed.


Aranna wrote:

See I have seen whole world books devoted to just an England sized campaign area. Players need not ever have it matter that they are on an air world if they never leave land. I offer that the island sizes should range from the tiniest rocky things all the way up to about the size of Ireland at the top end.

The reason I don't like rail between isles is because rails depend on a static route and since floating islands are always moving how do you build a static rail to one? The rail pylons would always be drifting out of sync with each other. The rails would bend and break. Even rails made of lightning (which are immune to bending) would drift out of range of the previous pylon occasionally leaving the train to plummet into the maelstrom below. If you correct this and have the train keep itself aloft (very doable with lighter than air materials) then the train stops being a train so much as a linked line of airships or a tug boat towing a line of barges. No rail needed.

Ah, okay. Well, in the next round the maximum size of the islands will be put up to vote, and I will definitely include your suggestions. You're probably right, but I imagine someone else could have a world book for something the size of Ireland.

While Hawaii or other, similarly-sized, islands would probably give a good reason for travel they might play havoc with farming. Katydid pointed out how something like this could be a problem earlier. If she's(?)still interested, I'm hoping she could provide some suggestions for reasonably-sized land masses that would encourage air travel but not cause agricultural issues. Of course, we could take a page out of Arianus if folks want.

I think that aerial adventures will be more common than land ones here even if there are some sizable skylands (unless they involve scouting unexplored skylands). It's very easy for me to imagine adventurers becoming part of a ship's crew or being hired to protect one from sky pirates or similar threats.

What you say about the trains is entirely true, and, like I said, I only really mentioned them at all because they tend to get left out of fantasy a lot. They aren't likely going to exist since there are a majority of 'no' votes.

Dark Archive

So evidently there is a reason for the lack of trains. ;)


I'm also keen on the idea of a powerful guild or organisation controlling the teleportation portals between skylands.

This doesn't necessarily have to be a trade guild, but could be an arcane school/guild that has a near-stranglehold on trade and is incredibly powerful. They would have commissioned fortresses containing the portals, have these heavily under guard, and make a tidy toll fee from every transport. They would have a huge influence over the ruling powers in any area they operate that is dependent on trade; as suggested above some rulers may be little more than puppets of the guild.

There are a number of arcane schools; Each of these could be a wizard's guild, varying in size - but the Conjurers' Guild would be the largest and most powerful of all. Clearly many of the conjurers would have followed the Teleportation focused school. (I guess summoners might also be part of the Conjurers' Guild, so we could see a selection of Eidolons guarding the teleportation portal fortresses). The largest cities would have several guilds (arcane schools) represented, but a large town would probably have only one or two.

The biggest rivals of the Conjurers Guild would be the Guild of Air Magic (Air School from the APG) who control magical flight, and some other group (I'm not sure which; it could be an arcane guild, but it could also be a miner's guild, perhaps largely the dwarf race) that crafts and maintains (and therefore has a measure of control over) the skyships. The fact that there are also flying steeds means that these groups don't the same monopoly over flying that the Conjurer's Guild would have over teleportation.

The instant, safe - but expensive - option of teleportation would be opposed by the less safe (pirates, weather conditions, kryslite hazards) but higher volume, more flexible and slightly cheaper option of flight. The Conjurers' Guild may take action (politically, or by sabotage) to make the other methods of transport less attractive. Adventurers might be hired to investigate - or carry out - sabotage.

So in our main lands we have these potential groups:

Twelve magical guilds
- derived from the four elemental schools and eight core schools (members of the core schools/guilds may well have specialised within the guild)
- the conjurer's guild, with many teleportation specialists and powerful summoners on call, tightly control inter-landmass teleportation and in many areas this gives them huge political influence.
- the air guild is the next biggest and controls magical flight, but is seen as a poor relation by the conjurers
- the other guilds (schools) are smaller but involved with society where they can, providing various magitech and services
- universalist wizards probably didn't belong to a guild but had a lone master, probably out in the countryside where there was no wizards' guild to become an apprentice with.
- clearly the Guildmasters would be very influential; the Conjurers' Guildmaster perhaps the (politically) most powerful person in the world.

Guild of miners and skymen
- among other interests, mine and refine kryslite.
- may also build and maintain skyships
- may also train or supply skyship pilots
- could be (entirely or predominantly) dwarves.

Flying creatures are probably not controlled by any particular group, although some groups may have more easy access to them (Elves? Or a particular nation where the conditions are well-suited to them). Dragons are not seen in inhabited lands (they exist 'down there' and are known of), but Giant Eagles, Pegasi, Hippogriffs, Griffons and occasionally Rocs are all known and sometimes used (some by force, some by co-operation).

It would be fun to have some rogue dangerous flying creatures that are not often seen near or over skylands, but that are random encounters skyships may see in transit. (Beholders would be a good one but were copyrighted out of Pathfinder; what would good equivalents be? Creatures that float in the air and therefore have no need of land. Maybe we need a handful of original floating beasts. An aerial version of a Portuguese Man O' War would be a good addition).


Aranna wrote:
See I have seen whole world books devoted to just an England sized campaign area. Players need not ever have it matter that they are on an air world if they never leave land. I offer that the island sizes should range from the tiniest rocky things all the way up to about the size of Ireland at the top end.

Map of Ireland in 1014 AD

Ireland was plenty big enough to hold 8 medieval kingdoms and 5 city-states (see map above), so a few Ireland-sized skylands and a host of smaller ones would give plenty of scope for everything needed. There's certainly no need for anything bigger.


sgriobhadair wrote:

Twelve magical guilds

- derived from the four elemental schools and eight core schools (members of the core schools/guilds may well have specialised within the guild)

Ooops, I meant eleven magical guilds and seven core schools (discounting universalist)

Quote:
Maybe we need a handful of original floating beasts. An aerial version of a Portuguese Man O' War would be a good addition

An aerial equivalent of the aboleth would be interesting too.

There'd also be some 'animal' floaters - after all the serious threats have to eat something when they're too far from land for birds, and they haven't eaten adventurer for a while.


Hmmm flying rats... like a mix between a big rat and a flying squirrel. Because you have to have rats for the level 1 heroes to fight.

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