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I am curious as to where you have seen shields spikes enchanted separate from the shield.
You're the second person to ask that in this thread. Does the existence of their separate entries in the CRB not mean the same thing to you as it does for me?
I see them as two clearly distinct items. Separate, with their own cost, and their own weight.
I can't be wrong on that, right? It's just people not cracking open their Core book and looking for themselves, right?
With the Klar I would say you have a choice. You can make a masterwork "shield" version for the lower ACP, and then enchant it as a shield or weapon or both as it is masterwork. You could make a masterwork "weapon" version for a +1 to attack and again enchant it as either a shield, or weapon, or both. Or make both parts masterwork for both benefits. Although really there would never be the need to make the "weapon" masterwork as you lose the benefit as soon as you enchant it. May not be RAW per se but it makes sense to me.
I am curious as to where you have seen shields spikes enchanted separate from the shield.You're the second person to ask that in this thread. Does the existence of their separate entries in the CRB not mean the same thing to you as it does for me?
I see them as two clearly distinct items. Separate, with their own cost, and their own weight.
I can't be wrong on that, right? It's just people not cracking open their Core book and looking for themselves, right?
Correct.
A Shield is a piece of equipment that can be enchanted as a Weapon as well, especially considering this clause:
Used this way, a light or heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon and a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its Armor Class bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
From this bolded clause, we gather that RAW, the Masterwork quality placed on the Shield does not grant it a +1 to hit, and there's no work-around to make it a Masterwork Weapon, since it is a Shield first, the bashing section saying you only treat it as a weapon for making attacks. It goes on to say, however, that regardless of this, a shield can be enchanted as if it were a weapon, and can become a magic weapon in addition to being a magic shield.
The item being enchanted must be of Masterwork quality; that's the only requirement. Is the Shield of Masterwork quality? Then it can be enchanted as either a weapon and/or a shield.
But take a good look at the Armor/Shields table. See where the Shield Spikes entry is located? It's listed as "extras," citing an additional gold cost and an additional weight value, meaning these values are applicable to a shield.
In addition, the Shield Spikes entry has this to say:
These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
The first bolded part tells us that, like the table above, the spikes are simply added onto the shield. I'm not sure about you, but to me, applying appendages (metal or otherwise) to a pre-created shapely figure is no easy task such as drawing or sheathing a weapon, and requires materials and labor, given in said table.
The second bolded part is the same clause as with any standard shield, but the difference is that the shield is spiked.
So yes, a standard shield and a spiked shield (both light and heavy) are indeed two separate items. However, I believe it is important to point out that one can't put on or take off spikes like the snap of fingers. It takes time, labor, money, materials, etc.
YMMW on that. I see nothing in the rules to indicate that the spikes and the shield are separate items. I've always run shield spikes as a modification to the shield, making it the same item. If it's one item, you can't make it out of two separate materials.Now, as I recall, you still need the +300 for Masterwork Shield Spikes.
Neat thing about Shield Spikes, is they can be a different material than the shield.
So, you could have a Mithral Heavy Shield, with Adamantine Shield Spikes.
This means a wooden shield has wooden spikes? That's rather...underwhelming. That's like saying a steel sword and a wooden sword are equally dangerous. I'm not sure this is true.
I've only ever known shield spikes to be metal fixtures on a shield (whether wooden or steel). Which means you could pay the extra cost for special materials to replace the steel material regardless of what the shield itself is made of. But maybe that's just how I'm used to playing it.
YMMW on that. I see nothing in the rules to indicate that the spikes and the shield are separate items. I've always run shield spikes as a modification to the shield, making it the same item. If it's one item, you can't make it out of two separate materials.Now, as I recall, you still need the +300 for Masterwork Shield Spikes.
Neat thing about Shield Spikes, is they can be a different material than the shield.
So, you could have a Mithral Heavy Shield, with Adamantine Shield Spikes.
This means a wooden shield has wooden spikes? That's rather...underwhelming. That's like saying a steel sword and a wooden sword are equally dangerous. I'm not sure this is true.
I've only ever known shield spikes to be metal fixtures on a shield (whether wooden or steel). Which means you could pay the extra cost for special materials to replace the steel material regardless of what the shield itself is made of. But maybe that's just how I'm used to playing it.
You read too literally into his statement. And for the record, his statement is correct.
Shield Spikes are created as an add-on to a shield, the same way a shield can or can be specially designed to be a thrown weapon (in addition to other properties). Once it's created in that manner, RAW, it cannot be changed. It's no different than creating a +1 Adamantine Falchion, realize you want a Greatsword, and want to make it a +1 Adamantine Greatsword instead. Unless the GM wants to handwave it, by the book that's how it works.
If you want proof, look at the tables. A table refers to a Shield and a Spiked Shield as separate items, and as such they should fall under the same disrepute as any other weapon; when made by multiple special materials, only the most prevalent material grants its effects. But when looking up Shield Spikes specifically, they are in the "Extra" column on the Armor table, and call out for "additional" costs and weight, and while this can be a basis for making them their own item, the "additional" subject means that the default application of the item is to be used on the item for which it was designed for.
I may have overlooked a similar statement to the one I am about to make, but trying to read the whole thread is taking a toll on my brain at this late hour.
A loop hole, if you choose to think of it as such, is to craft the shield as a weapon from the start and then pick up a feat that allows you to use your weapon as a shield (I forget which feat it is considering the extreme number of feats that exist).
That's the two cents from the peanut gallery.
I may have overlooked a similar statement to the one I am about to make, but trying to read the whole thread is taking a toll on my brain at this late hour.
A loop hole, if you choose to think of it as such, is to craft the shield as a weapon from the start and then pick up a feat that allows you to use your weapon as a shield (I forget which feat it is considering the extreme number of feats that exist).
That's the two cents from the peanut gallery.
RAW, you cannot do the bolded part. When creating a shield, it already has stats to be used for bashing, depending on how it's made.
If it's made without spikes, it deals 1D3 base Bludgeoning damage. When made with spikes, it deals 1D4 base Piercing damage, assuming you use it to bash an enemy, or turn it into a magic weapon, and only in those cases is it to be treated as a weapon.
For all other cases, it is a shield/armor item, and it follows those rules.
It's not like a character can't use a shield to bash, but they lose the AC bonus it grants when they do. There is a feat that allows you to retain the shield's AC bonus when you use it to bash (Improved Shield Bash); I believe that is what you were referring to.
I do thank you for bringing it up, as it does raise another point, which I will make into a separate thread.
Nefreet: i dot get the issue with the weight? The klar states itt works like a light shield with spikes. Just because flurry of blows works like twf doesnt mean you have to have 15dexfor it.
When something states "works lie X" or "treat as X" that means for every unspecified part you treat it as X. The klar isnt a shield with spikes, it works like a shield with spikes.
You read too literally into his statement. And for the record, his statement is correct.
Shield Spikes are created as an add-on to a shield, the same way a shield can or can be specially designed to be a thrown weapon (in addition to other properties). Once it's created in that manner, RAW, it cannot be changed. It's no different than creating a +1 Adamantine Falchion, realize you want a Greatsword, and want to make it a +1 Adamantine Greatsword instead. Unless the GM wants to handwave it, by the book that's how it works.
If you want proof, look at the tables. A table refers to a Shield and a Spiked Shield as separate items, and as such they should fall under the same disrepute as any other weapon; when made by multiple special materials, only the most prevalent material grants its effects. But when looking up Shield Spikes specifically, they are in the "Extra" column on the Armor table, and call out for "additional" costs and weight,...
I'm not sure you caught my point here. I'm not talking about adding spikes at some later point. I'm talking about creating a spiked shield outright. The suggestion was that the shield and the spikes were made out of the same material. This isn't true. Maybe I'm missing something, but I only see one entry for weight with regards to Shield Spikes. And we know from several other entries that steel weighs more than wood.
If a wooden spiked shield had wooden spikes, then they would be lighter than the steel spikes on a steel spiked shield. But the spikes in both cases add the same weight...meaning they're constructed of the same material...ie Steel. Which shows that a shield made out of one material can have spikes made out of another material.
Or is someone suggesting that Armor Spikes added to Hide armor are constructed of Hide? :P
You read too literally into his statement. And for the record, his statement is correct.
Shield Spikes are created as an add-on to a shield, the same way a shield can or can be specially designed to be a thrown weapon (in addition to other properties). Once it's created in that manner, RAW, it cannot be changed. It's no different than creating a +1 Adamantine Falchion, realize you want a Greatsword, and want to make it a +1 Adamantine Greatsword instead. Unless the GM wants to handwave it, by the book that's how it works.
If you want proof, look at the tables. A table refers to a Shield and a Spiked Shield as separate items, and as such they should fall under the same disrepute as any other weapon; when made by multiple special materials, only the most prevalent material grants its effects. But when looking up Shield Spikes specifically, they are in the "Extra" column on the Armor table, and call out for "additional" costs and weight,...
I'm not sure you caught my point here. I'm not talking about adding spikes at some later point. I'm talking about creating a spiked shield outright. The suggestion was that the shield and the spikes were made out of the same material. This isn't true. Maybe I'm missing something, but I only see one entry for weight with regards to Shield Spikes. And we know from several other entries that steel weighs more than wood.
If a wooden spiked shield had wooden spikes, then they would be lighter than the steel spikes on a steel spiked shield. But the spikes in both cases add the same weight...meaning they're constructed of the same material...ie Steel. Which shows that a shield made out of one material can have spikes made out of another material.
Or is someone suggesting that Armor Spikes added to Hide armor are constructed of Hide? :P
I agree in that the items aren't made of the same material; wooden spikes wouldn't really be too piercing, unless they were, say, rose thorns, and even that's not exactly wood.
Though my point still stands; if it's made out of two materials, especially in the case of special materials, only the most prevalent is calculated. Throwing on metal spikes onto a light or heavy shield is going to be taxing to determine its HP/Thickness, and it's only treated as such for special effects related to material as well as ease of calculation.
I would have thought this was clear-cut, until I learned that clerics are proficient with shields, not shields.
The rules explicitly say you can turn a shield into a magic weapon. Any interpretation you have that contradicts that is wrong.
A spiked shield is "a shield." Just because you can craft magical weapon shields doesn't mean all shields are automatically eligible.
And it's possible that masterwork doesn't mean masterwork.
Except now there's Masterwork Transformation.I know that rule. I am saying once the item is created you can not make it into a masterwork item. You must do it while crafting it.The use of the word "enhance". You can not masterwork enhance anything.Not sure where you get that from, but maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean. Clearly masterworking a weapon adds an enhancement bonus to it...
A masterwork weapon is a finely crafted version of a normal weapon. Wielding it provides a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls.
I mentioned that earlier in the thread. :)