sneak attack, flanking, missle weapons, and other pains...


Rules Questions


OK let's imagine 2 situations:
1) typical Rogue type fighting GIT (Guy In Trouble) with another Rogue flanking him. In other words, both Rogues benefit from having an opponent flanked, aka Sneak Attack City. Got that. Now then:
1a) Suppose 1 rogue is using a melee weapon, the other a ranged weapon- say a pistol. The pistol rogue is in melee range, and generates an AOO, BUT does he offer flanking benefits to his buddy?
2) Ok similar situation- 2 rogues flanking GIT, only this time the Pain in the butt rogue is 15 feet away and is using a whip. Let's assume he has the feats/ equipment to make the whip deal lethal damage, but he is not threatening GIT. He can still attack as normal, but cannot make AOOs. Does he allow the first rogue to sneak attack?
I think I know the answer, I'm just not 100%. I just wanna bounce this off you all and see what you guys come up with. Thanks!


Under Core Attacks of Opportunity Threatened Squares:

Quote:
If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.

Under Core Combat Flanking:

Quote:
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

I believe from the above two rules, 1a) "the other rogue" does not threaten because he doesn't threaten squares because he has a ranged weapon and no melee weapon. Thus flanking bonuses don't appear, and no sneak attack.

2) If the rogue with the whip doesn't threaten, then the flanking bonus doesn't appear so no sneak attack.

Sczarni

The Rogue with the Pistol should stop by the local smithy and pick up a Gauntlet so he can threaten in melee and help out his buddy.

The Rogue with the whip should pick up those feats that allow him to threaten out to a range of 15 ft.


Kinda what I thought. Thanks! The pistol packin Rogue and whippy Rogue DO get their sneak tho, correct? I think so, I just wanna check.
To change the subject, a vanishing ninja/ gunslinger really is not a good partner, but damn can they sneak attack!


I don't think the pistol rogue would get the sneak attack by flanking rules:

Quote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

I think the whip rogue does get sneak attack.

Sczarni

The Pistol Rogue gets his Sneak Attack if he's Invisible and his opponent cannot see him, but ranged weapons don't benefit from flanking.

Whips aren't ranged weapons, they're melee weapons with reach, so the Whip Rogue can still benefit from flanking if his pistol buddy was wearing the afore-suggested gauntlet.


The pistol rogue could get his sneak attack as long as he is flanking the GIT. Get him a spiked guantlet, and he is GtG.

Same thing with the guy with the whip, he needs to threaten the target to be flanking.


geekgumbo wrote:

OK let's imagine 2 situations:

1) typical Rogue type fighting GIT (Guy In Trouble) with another Rogue flanking him. In other words, both Rogues benefit from having an opponent flanked, aka Sneak Attack City. Got that. Now then:
1a) Suppose 1 rogue is using a melee weapon, the other a ranged weapon- say a pistol. The pistol rogue is in melee range, and generates an AOO, BUT does he offer flanking benefits to his buddy?
2) Ok similar situation- 2 rogues flanking GIT, only this time the Pain in the butt rogue is 15 feet away and is using a whip. Let's assume he has the feats/ equipment to make the whip deal lethal damage, but he is not threatening GIT. He can still attack as normal, but cannot make AOOs. Does he allow the first rogue to sneak attack?
I think I know the answer, I'm just not 100%. I just wanna bounce this off you all and see what you guys come up with. Thanks!

The flanking bonus needs flanking, but you can be flanking without the bonus.

CRB p197 wrote:
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

1A) Yes. You meet the test for flanking. Your friend can sneak attack.

2) Yes. Same reason. That test for flanking does not require weapons or threats. It requires position.

Previous paragraph wrote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

1A) Your ally does NOT get the +2 since you do not threaten.

2) Your ally does NOT get the +2 since you do not threaten.

Remy Balster and I have related FAQ requests:
FAQ Request #1

Quote:

CRB p197, under "Flanking", first paragraph defines a "flanking bonus". The second paragraph defines a test for "flanking". Is "flanking", not the "flanking bonus", solely dependent on position per this paragraph? This affects ranged sneak attacks.

Does this change for ranged weapon(s) that also threaten?

FAQ Request #2
Quote:
CRB p197, under "Flanking", first paragraph defines a "flanking bonus" and the requirements to get it. Can a character with Snap Shot feat and wielding a ranged weapon meet the qualifications of "opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner"? If he can qualify, is he "flanking" while in position to threaten opposite his ally? (Not get a "bonus", but be "flanking")

He and I have slightly different interests, but the rules are unclear.

Some examples I have are:
X=You
Y=Opponent
Z=Ally

Example 1 wrote:

_____

X_Y_Z
_____

You and ally wield reach weapons: You are NOT adjacent to the enemy. Do you flank?

Example 2 wrote:

_____

_XYZ_
_____

You and ally wield daggers. If you make a melee attack you get the bonus due to flanking. Yet if you throw it, without changing position, why should you loose flanking?

I also made another argument here showing that there is clearly the ability to sneak attack at range.

I see the key point about flanking is that there is a test spelled out in the CRB to determine if a bad guy is flanked. That test is strictly based on position, not on weapons held or used.

Please use the links above to FAQ the issue on flanking.

/cevah


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Flanking applies to melee only, don't even start this argument here.


Claxon wrote:
Flanking applies to melee only, don't even start this argument here.

The +2 flanking bonus applies to melee only. The +2 flanking bonus is not, as far as I've ever seen (without heavy research) referenced as being the only way you're flanking someone.

Specifically...

prd wrote:

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Threatening is what is required. Specifically, being threatened by someone on the opposite side. You don't get a +2 bonus to ranged attacks, but you could very easily read it to be flanking for the purposes of ranged attacks that can deal sneak damage.


Claxon wrote:
Flanking applies to melee only, don't even start this argument here.

Flanking bonus clearly requires melee.

The test for flanking (in the next paragraph) makes no reference to what kind of attack the attackers are using, nor if they are adjacent, not even if they are threatening.

Please FAQ the linked posts if you have not yet done so. That thread has much more detail and arguments than should be here.

/cevah


I'm not going to FAQ anything. It's been discussed to death, and every time the result is that the "but ranged flanking sneak attack!" side loses.

Ranged attackers do not ever benefit in anyway from flanking, and excepting the zen archer's ability and Snap Shot cannot provide flanking to anyone. To provide flanking requires you to threaten, which you don't do with ranged weapons, except in the above cases.

Liberty's Edge

@Cevah
You are splitting the rules to get the reply you want. They aren't splitted, they are a unicum.

PRD wrote:


Flanking

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.

The second phrase explain how you should go around deciding if the target is flanked in the context of the first phrase. It is not something meant to give a rule by itself.


This 3rd party feat in the only way I've found outside of the Zen Archer's Reflexive Shot/Snap Shot feat list that allows you to make any kind of ranged AoO, and as the the feat above, it's the only one I've found that lets you actually flank with ranged weapons. HOWEVER! It is a third party feat, which means your gm would have to allow its use for anyone to take it in a pathfinder game. Outside of this feat, I don't believe there's a way to get the flanking bonus with a ranged weapon.


Diego Rossi wrote:

@Cevah

You are splitting the rules to get the reply you want. They aren't splitted, they are a unicum.

PRD wrote:


Flanking

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.

The second phrase explain how you should go around deciding if the target is flanked in the context of the first phrase. It is not something meant to give a rule by itself.

A phrase is part of a sentence. I assume you meant paragraph. :-)

The Elements of Style, chapter 2 states:

13. Make the paragraph the unit of composition. wrote:

Ordinarily, however, a subject requires division into topics, each of which should be dealt with in a paragraph. The object of treating each topic in a paragraph by itself is, of course, to aid the reader. The beginning of each paragraph is a signal that a new step in the development of the subject has been reached.

...
As a rule, begin each paragraph either with a sentence that suggests the topic or with a sentence that helps the transition. If a paragraph forms part of a larger composition, its relation to what precedes, or its function as a part of the whole, may need to be expressed. This can sometimes be done by a mere word or phrase (again, therefore, for the same reason) in the first sentence. Sometimes, however, it is expedient to get into the topic slowly, by way of a sentence or two of introduction or transition.

"Flanking" is the subject. "Flanking Bonus" is the topic of the first paragraph. "Flanking test" is the topic of the second paragraph. There is no transition sentence or phrase in the beginning of the second paragraph. You do not have "in the context of the first phrase". Therefore, it is a separate thing.

Claxon wrote:

I'm not going to FAQ anything. It's been discussed to death, and every time the result is that the "but ranged flanking sneak attack!" side loses.

Ranged attackers do not ever benefit in anyway from flanking, and excepting the zen archer's ability and Snap Shot cannot provide flanking to anyone. To provide flanking requires you to threaten, which you don't do with ranged weapons, except in the above cases.

You clearly disagree with me. You claim the ranged side looses in each discussion. I do not see the proponents of the ranged side conceding victory in these discussions. I see two sides unable to agree, and the discussion die for lack on anything new to say.

"To provide flanking requires you to threaten"
I am in doubt. What do I do? Lets look at the text quoted by Diego Rossi above. I read paragraph two and see an explicit test to determine if flanking exists. It does not mention threaten. Therefore, no one is required to threaten to provide flanking. Paragraph one indicates your ally needing to threaten for you to get a bonus when you flank with your ally.

Please FAQ.

/cevah

EDIT: Revised last paragraph about ally threatening

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