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I know there's a very short thread that already asks about APG classes and spell recovery, but I'd like to know what people are doing about oracles.
Divine spellcasters have to spend an hour each day praying to their gods or goddesses to get their spells back. I'm fine with that interpretation (the oracle has to spend an hour doing something), *EXCEPT*
- They don't worship individual gods.
- They have this nasty curse that no other classes are stuck with. By the time the curse becomes a benefit, all the other spellcasting classes will have Rings of Sustenance and will be thumbing their noses at those rest rules.
So, how are people playing this?
(1) Is everyone saying, "Just spend the hour like a normal person?"
(2) Is anyone saying, "Your curse is your payment. Save your hour?"
Thanks!
(Mostly curiosity on my part; I'm expecting 90-100% answer 1, but I like hearing peoples' opinions and starting bitter arguments.)
Pretty much #2, like a sorcerer; just sleep and replenish your energies. I allow this even if an oracle chooses not to have a curse (a house rule).
They pray to the gods compatible to them (as a group) or to a concept (backed up by gods who favor it) for their recovery time.
How about these curses:
Clumsiness curse(dex penalty?)
Curse of Tight clothing (double all ACP's?)
Curse of Flatulence (loads of circumstance penalties - trying to sneak, uh oh, trying to negotiation, uh oh, somehow everyone seems to get a surprise round on you!)
I've always just had my oracles regain spells at the appointed time of day, normally sunrise.
Justification:
Time of Day
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
Spell Selection and Preparation
A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a divine spellcaster can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.
The hour time is what is used to "prepare" the spells. But the slots open up immediately at the appointed time, so that they may be filled with prepared slots. The prayer fills the empty slots that you have regained.
Oracles don't need to prepare them though, so they simply skip all the prayer and meditation required to prepare. At the appointed time, they simply regain their slots.
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They pray to the gods compatible to them (as a group) or to a concept (backed up by gods who favor it) for their recovery time.
Even if they curse the gods who curse them?
Even if they have no idea who put this terrible burden upon them?
Even if they deny the gods, and stoically maintain their Atheism?
Yeah, no. They get all their slots back at a witching-hour type event. They get to pick when. For good or ill, their spellslots come back then, every day, without fail. I might allow a change based on RP at some point, but certainly not based on "Well, we wanna storm this keep."
If my players don't state when, I'll assume it's at midnight, dawn, or just before bed. Probably dawn.
They pray to the gods compatible to them (as a group) or to a concept (backed up by gods who favor it) for their recovery time.Even if they curse the gods who curse them?
Even if they have no idea who put this terrible burden upon them?
Even if they deny the gods, and stoically maintain their Atheism?
I have an Oracle of Life who glimpsed the divine essence of the gods, and has the Clouded Vision curse because of it.
He doesn't worship any of the gods, and knows them for what they are, cosmically powerful entities who have mastery of divine magic. A mastery he hopes to develop, himself...
So... he would never pray to any gods... That is the exact opposite of his background/story/motivation.
Thankfully, no deity worship is required of the Oracle class.
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@Zhayne "like a sorcerer; just sleep and replenish your energies"
Wrong, a sorcerer need to concentrate for 15 minutes:
Sorcerers and Bards
Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not use spellbooks or prepare spells. Their class level limits the number of spells she can cast (see these class descriptions). Her high Charisma score might allow her to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level to cast the spell.
Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before.
Recent Casting Limit: Any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer's or bard's daily limit.
As he is a divine spellcaster the orcle probably don't need to sleep, but he need to spend some time (almost certainly 15 minutes, like the sorcerer) focusing his mind to use his spells.
@Zhayne "like a sorcerer; just sleep and replenish your energies"
Wrong, a sorcerer need to concentrate for 15 minutes:
As he is a divine spellcaster the orcle probably don't need to sleep, but he need to spend some time (almost certainly 15 minutes, like the sorcerer) focusing his mind to use his spells.Sorcerers and Bards
Sorcerers and bards cast arcane spells, but they do not use spellbooks or prepare spells. Their class level limits the number of spells she can cast (see these class descriptions). Her high Charisma score might allow her to cast a few extra spells. A member of either class must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level to cast the spell.
Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before.
Recent Casting Limit: Any spells cast within the last 8 hours count against the sorcerer's or bard's daily limit.
That makes for a very good home rule.
I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who was wondering about oracles praying to the gods that cursed them.
I'll suggest the "15-minute rule" to the other GMs in my group. Nice house rule, and an hour of prayer/meditation in exchange for being cursed does seem less-than-sensible.
We're in a Second Darkness campaign, and I'm playing a Life Oracle who was raised on the Celestial Plane, and basically thinks and acts like a cleric. She's got her holy symbol, she does her hour of prayers every morning, the whole 9 yards. She's got the Tongues curse, and she thinks it's a blessing that prevents her from being mind controlled by demons and devils, since they'll have no common language. (Yeah, she's a bit naive. It's a lot of fun to play her.)
I just figure in a campaign focused on drow if we don't get captured and sold off as slaves at some point the authors really didn't do the drow justice. So the easy way to enslave a cleric is to take away her holy symbol. Obviously that won't work on my oracle, so I was wondering whether "keep her from praying" is a viable option. Since "praying" can be nothing more than silent meditation I don't see it, but it made me start wondering about oracles and how they get their spells back, since the rules aren't 100% clear for them.
Good discussion so far, all! Thanks!
They pray to the gods compatible to them (as a group) or to a concept (backed up by gods who favor it) for their recovery time.Even if they curse the gods who curse them?
Even if they have no idea who put this terrible burden upon them?
Even if they deny the gods, and stoically maintain their Atheism?
I have an Oracle of Life who glimpsed the divine essence of the gods, and has the Clouded Vision curse because of it.
He doesn't worship any of the gods, and knows them for what they are, cosmically powerful entities who have mastery of divine magic. A mastery he hopes to develop, himself...
So... he would never pray to any gods... That is the exact opposite of his background/story/motivation.
Thankfully, no deity worship is required of the Oracle class.
This is just plain silly, given the introductory text, and that they're a divine caster:
Although the gods work through many agents, perhaps none is more mysterious than the oracle. These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand. Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. While some see the powers of the oracle as a gift, others view them as a curse, changing the life of the chosen in unforeseen ways.
You can house rule them spending some amount of time sneering at the gods, but that doesn't fit with the class description. I agree the amount of time isn't clear. If you want to play an armored sorcerer, play a bard or take the appropriate feats. Worship of multiple gods, or of a concept (backed by the power of the gods) is required (as I read RAW) to get your spells.
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Please re-read your own quoted text Kwuass. You/it very plainly states that oracles are not required to worship gods.
Divine vessels granted power without their choice.
Unlike a cleric who draws her powers from devotion to a deity...
Selected by providence to wield powers they do not understand (providence is open to interpretation).
Garnering powers from many sources (namely deities that share their ideals- not only).
While not worshipping a single deity oracles tend to venerate multiple gods....
I am sorry, but exactly at what point does any of this sound like someone has to, would necessarily want to or that worship of gods is a requirement of the class? Unless those several lines of text are saying something that I failed to understand, oracles and deity worship are not inherently coupled.
Please re-read your own quoted text Kwuass. You/it very plainly states that oracles are not required to worship gods.
Divine vessels granted power without their choice.
Unlike a cleric who draws her powers from devotion to a deity...
Selected by providence to wield powers they do not understand (providence is open to interpretation).
Garnering powers from many sources (namely deities that share their ideals- not only).
While not worshipping a single deity oracles tend to venerate multiple gods....
I am sorry, but exactly at what point does any of this sound like someone has to, would necessarily want to or that worship of gods is a requirement of the class? Unless those several lines of text are saying something that I failed to understand, oracles and deity worship are not inherently coupled.
It says 'namely deities who share their ideals' not mainly, namely - meaning they get their divine power from those deities. They don't need to worship them specifically, but that is the source of their power as they worship/honor/meditate on their ideal. They can deny it all they want, but it's clear that's where they get their divine power. Except in some edge case where the god supplying their power is some sort of trickster/iconoclast, I would not allow them to deny the existence of the gods, or to fail to honor them as a group (or the power spigot shuts off and you have a cursed non-caster). The power could have been forced upon them, but they still need an ideal to go by, and it's still obviously divine power given to them by the gods.
. . .
Daily Readying of Spells: Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which she spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies her mind to cast her daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh herself, the character does not regain the spell slots she used up the day before. . . .
*Kaiba voice* Screw the rules! I'm Chaotic!
You don't even need to have your Oracle powers come from a Deity. . . .
Yes they do. You steal them. Oracle = The New Ur Priest. ;)
Like Zhayne, I lean toward just letting them get their spells back. No, its not RAW, but I imagine that's an oversight. The oracle's spontaneous chassis should follow the spontaneous casters.
A divine spellcaster selects and ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a divine spellcaster can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.
When they ported this over from 3.5, they didn't yet have the oracle. An oracle can't leave slots open. They don't prepare spells. They aren't like the the wizard. They can't replace a spell known with another in 15 minutes.
Not having read the Oracle class personally, I assumed it was 15 minutes like the sorcerer, but at a particular time of day as a divine spellcaster. Spell slots used w/in the last 8 hours would still apply.
Side note:
She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one...They can't replace a spell known with another in 15 minutes.
You probably weren't saying this, but wizards/clerics can't replace a prepared spell with another prepared spell in 15 minutes.
Side note:You probably weren't saying this, but wizards/clerics can't replace a prepared spell with another prepared spell in 15 minutes.She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one...They can't replace a spell known with another in 15 minutes.
Yeah. I meant prepared casters filling an empty spell slot and wasn't typing straight. All spontaneous casters have is empty slots. Filling them is casting them which is emptying them. (Hmm... I think I now want a zen sorcerer.)
You can house rule them spending some amount of time sneering at the gods, but that doesn't fit with the class description.
That is pure flavor text, and thus not binding rules text in any way, shape or form. There is precisely zero rules text requiring an oracle to give two squirts of holy water about gods (unlike a cleric ... who also doesn't actually need to worship a god, per se, and can just follow an ideal or philosophy).
They pray to the gods compatible to them (as a group) or to a concept (backed up by gods who favor it) for their recovery time.Even if they curse the gods who curse them?
Even if they have no idea who put this terrible burden upon them?
Even if they deny the gods, and stoically maintain their Atheism?
I have an Oracle of Life who glimpsed the divine essence of the gods, and has the Clouded Vision curse because of it.
He doesn't worship any of the gods, and knows them for what they are, cosmically powerful entities who have mastery of divine magic. A mastery he hopes to develop, himself...
So... he would never pray to any gods... That is the exact opposite of his background/story/motivation.
Thankfully, no deity worship is required of the Oracle class.
This is just plain silly, given the introductory text, and that they're a divine caster:
You can house rule them spending some amount of time sneering at the gods, but that doesn't fit with the class description. I agree the amount of time isn't clear. If you want to play an armored sorcerer, play a bard or take the appropriate feats. Worship of multiple gods, or of a concept (backed by the power of the gods) is required (as I read RAW) to get your spells.
Although the gods work through many agents, perhaps none is more mysterious than the oracle. These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand. Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. While some see the powers of the oracle as a gift, others view them as a curse, changing the life of the chosen in unforeseen ways.
I’m being silly?
A) My back-story is perfectly in line with the fluff text. Even though that isn't strictly required, even if it weren't in line with the fluff.
B) He is a divine caster, but doesn't 'worship' any of the gods. He is well aware of their existence, and that his magic is of the same nature as theirs.
C) He never volunteered for his 'gifts' or his understanding of divine magic. It happened 'to' him. But since it has, he has decided to take full advantage of it and pursue greater mastery of the magic of the gods. He might not fully understand it yet, but he hopes to.
D) The gods might very well be the source of his power, but he doesn't think they are. He thinks he is learning forbidden secrets the likes of which the gods once learned before becoming gods themselves. He might be wrong. He might be very, very wrong.
E) I don't have to house rule anything for my 'back-story and character motivations', thank you very much. Especially given that they are in line with the fluff text perfectly fine.
F) If I wanted to play a sorcerer or a bard I would. Last time I checked an Oracle of Life isn't anything remotely similar to either of those classes.
You should reconsider your derisive attitude.
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I like Remy's backstory; it reminds me of the Lovecraft story, where the explorers climb to the highest mountain, and see the true forms of the gods, dancing on the plateau. I think one is struck blind, or mad, by the sight, which would fit the kinds of curse oracles get saddled with.
Out of interest, would his attitude change, if he were to learn of a 'Prometheus' deity, punished by his peers for attempting to share divine knowledge with mortals, and asking no strings attached? Would he champion or free this entity from its punishment? Could be a worthy mythic quest for an iconoclastic hero.
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From Inner Sea World Guide.
Adventurers in the World. Pg. 275.
Oracle: .....Oracles do not venerate specific deities, but many see themselves as pantheists.....
Others eschew the worship of deities completely, instead venerating philosophies or other less tangible objects of devotion.
If this is not as clear as the regular oracle entry that the class does not have to worship a deity (as it stands things besides gods can grant them their power) then I don't know what else to say.
Oracles do not have to worship, follow, venerate, acknowledge, believe in or relate to any god. Seems pretty clear to me.
...They pray to the gods compatible to them (as a group) or to a concept (backed up by gods who favor it) for their recovery time.Even if they curse the gods who curse them?
Even if they have no idea who put this terrible burden upon them?
Even if they deny the gods, and stoically maintain their Atheism?
I have an Oracle of Life who glimpsed the divine essence of the gods, and has the Clouded Vision curse because of it.
He doesn't worship any of the gods, and knows them for what they are, cosmically powerful entities who have mastery of divine magic. A mastery he hopes to develop, himself...
So... he would never pray to any gods... That is the exact opposite of his background/story/motivation.
Thankfully, no deity worship is required of the Oracle class.
This is just plain silly, given the introductory text, and that they're a divine caster:
You can house rule them spending some amount of time sneering at the gods, but that doesn't fit with the class description. I agree the amount of time isn't clear. If you want to play an armored sorcerer, play a bard or take the appropriate feats. Worship of multiple gods, or of a concept (backed by the power of the gods) is required (as I read RAW) to get your
Although the gods work through many agents, perhaps none is more mysterious than the oracle. These divine vessels are granted power without their choice, selected by providence to wield powers that even they do not fully understand. Unlike a cleric, who draws her magic through devotion to a deity, oracles garner strength and power from many sources, namely those patron deities who support their ideals. Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs. While some see the powers of the oracle as a gift, others view them as a curse, changing the life of the chosen in unforeseen ways.
I apologize, I was referring to the concept of atheism as defined in the dictionary:
a·the·ist [ey-thee-ist]
noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.
being appropriate for Oracles as described in the APG. I actually like your conception, but would consider it an edge case (akin to a trickster god who is giving powers to a mortal without letting them know they're responsible). If Paizo has subsequently made Oracle to be just a divine caster sorcerer with no real divine ties (as the Inner Sea quotation seems to indicate), that's fine, but I'm unlikely to allow an Oracle in my campaign who denies the gods existence - I still see their power as being divinely derived, and except in these edge cases it rarely makes sense to not believe in things that are investing you with their divine power to perform small miracles. I take a very Katherine Kerr (Deverry) view of the gods in PF, and would even say that worship of a concept or philosophy(or something less tangible) creates a vacancy for a god, that only when filled (by the creation of a god or investiture of a mortal into godhood) can grant that power.
From Inner Sea World Guide.
Adventurers in the World. Pg. 275.
Oracle: .....Oracles do not venerate specific deities, but many see themselves as pantheists.....
Others eschew the worship of deities completely, instead venerating philosophies or other less tangible objects of devotion.Oracles do not have to worship, follow, venerate, acknowledge, believe in or relate to any god. Seems pretty clear to me.
This is true, but they do have to venerate something. That worship, of whatever they *do* believe in, is what grants them their spells each day, and it takes time. Whether an hour as the rules would default to, or 15 minutes as would make sense is a question for your GM.
This is true, but they do have to venerate something. That worship, of whatever they *do* believe in, is what grants them their spells each day
Again, flavor text.
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Especially considering that the power is forced upon them, even without their choice. I could easily see someone who loved the heavens or undeath becoming disenchanted with the very concept once their body began to be consumed, their vision clouded, their mobility hamphered by being rendered lame (but I miss battle, SO much). If this can be true, I can easily see someone with no ties to these concepts being thrust upon with divine might and becoming a living advocate (unwillingly) for the concepts associated with that power.
You may hate the gods but maybe a few are using you as an example that they can influence even nonbelievers and direct their fate.
Lots of great role play options can come out of the interactions we have all been talking about. Translate how you like in your own worlds but try not to close the doors on all the cool possibilities and flavor.
