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Lawful has nearly nothing to do with laws.
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Lawful has nearly nothing to do with laws.
This. This This This This This THIS.
It has to do with an orderly, disciplined, and, well, Lawful approach to life.
Yes, and no. Champions of Balance has some really nice stuff talking about the nature of lawfulness and chaos. A lawful character is unlikely to break a law unless it specifically conflicts with their code. Basically they have a starting attitude of 'Friendly' towards an existing lawful structure.
As for a paladin walking into a Chelish slavemarket, their code specifically requires them to respect legitimate authority. Just because an authority is evil doesn't mean they aren't legitimate.
A Neutral Good person believes laws/order are good, insofar as they promote good. If a law/tradition doesn't promote good, it isn't worth anything and should be discarded.
Neither of you really quite get it.
Says the Agathion.
Arrgh! a troll just made my head explode!
In the case of the paladin, I always come back to what the devs have stated their interpretation is: A Paladin is someone SO devoted to Good that it manifests as a Lawful Alignment.
So yeah, they're less concerned with hierarchical structures, and it's hard to argue by that metric that their good doesn't come "from within."
Love me some G$+~#%N BATMAN!!!!
You do know that bringing up Batman is a fairly effective way of Goodwinning an alignment thread. Batman's a complicated character who really doesn't fit in the simplistic alignment system, especially if it's Frank Miller's Batman.And Batman.To me, Lawful Good is very easy to encapsulate. I just compare it to fictional characters who I think match Lawful Good.
Two examples of this are Michael Carpenter and Optimus Prime.
Godwinacz
I dont agree in the least that Batman is LG. He is a vigilante who has no qualms being wanted under the law. (After all, he is the hero Gotham needs, not the one it deserves or some such...)
He is a complicated character, but at best I would consider him an amalgamation of GG and NG. He does a have a strong personal code, but won't hesitate to basically torture an opponent to save an innocent. He will not kill (in most incarnations), but will go farther than many of his counterparts to further the greater good. He's also often described as cold, uncaring. While that may not be entirely true, his compassion is usually questioned in the pursuit of his goals. (Probably my favorite super hero in all honesty, due to this complexity)
I do believe he is inheritently good though, so probably would not classify him as LN.
Back to the OP, I like his synopsis. I think Paladins DO put a lot of emphasis on hierarchal structures, but they see that as the best way to promote goodness. However, if it is clear that "Law" is being used to promote tyranny, then he/she would be willing to usurp that lawful entity; yet, maybe only in the event it is not replaced with a worse chaotic one.
If I had to use another comic book analogy to describe LG, I would use Superman personally. And would probably use Wonder Woman as your CG persona.
I'm not going to get into what alignment batman is. He's had so many writers over the years that he's probably leaning towards something in the neutral category due to that alone.
Here's what I have for Lawful Good for my homebrew.
Lawful Good – Justice through vigilance
When the forces of law and good meet, things tend to be better for all involved. The two sides tend to moderate one another’s weaknesses- the stark and impartial edges of law are sanded down by the compassion good provides, while the peaceable and sometimes impractical aspects of good are given boundaries and direction by the more rational law. As a philosophy, Lawful Good symbolizes not just the active opposition of injustice and overall evil through legal, moral, and physical means but also passively through caring about and setting an example for others within society.
Most people, however, are not nearly so infallible- or rather, flexible. Many who are Lawful Good pick a particular aspect to fight against evil on- usually one that best suits their natural talents and abilities. For one, this may indeed mean strapping on a sword and setting the world to rights, but to another, it might focus on honesty and competence in business affairs. Someone else might be more interested in providing charity for those who are enduring hard times, while yet another might do their best to have an unjust law overturned. While the genuine desire to make the world a better place keeps the number of bullies and boors who subscribe to this alignment to a minimum, self-righteousness can occur in the overzealous, the hasty, or those who lack imagination or are just plain closed-minded. At its best, Lawful Good combines a desire to uphold the best about society while protecting its individual members from negative elements. At its worst, Lawful Good can be seen as ineffectual or hypocritical due to its desire to work within the social structure to effect change.
Here's what I have for Lawful Good for my homebrew.
Lawful Good – Justice through vigilance
When the forces of law and good meet, things tend to be better for all involved. The two sides tend to moderate one another’s weaknesses- the stark and impartial edges of law are sanded down by the compassion good provides, while the peaceable and sometimes impractical aspects of good are given boundaries and direction by the more rational law. As a philosophy, Lawful Good symbolizes not just the active opposition of injustice and overall evil through legal, moral, and physical means but also passively through caring about and setting an example for others within society.
Most people, however, are not nearly so infallible- or rather, flexible. Many who are Lawful Good pick a particular aspect to fight against evil on- usually one that best suits their natural talents and abilities. For one, this may indeed mean strapping on a sword and setting the world to rights, but to another, it might focus on honesty and competence in business affairs. Someone else might be more interested in providing charity for those who are enduring hard times, while yet another might do their best to have an unjust law overturned. While the genuine desire to make the world a better place keeps the number of bullies and boors who subscribe to this alignment to a minimum, self-righteousness can occur in the overzealous, the hasty, or those who lack imagination or are just plain closed-minded. At its best, Lawful Good combines a desire to uphold the best about society while protecting its individual members from negative elements. At its worst, Lawful Good can be seen as ineffectual or hypocritical due to its desire to work within the social structure to effect change.
Well said.
One of the tricks about this is that some people want Lawfulness to be representative of discipline and orderliness. Others want it to be representative of external devotion to externally imposed structures, usually because of Lawful means Disciplined and Orderly, then ergo non-Lawfulness must mean Undisciplined.
Really it has to boil down to what the GM's and Players want it to mean at a given game and in a given group.
I change what aspects of the alignments mean depending on the stories I want to tell.
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non-lawfulness does mean rather undisciplined.
It does NOT, however, mean non-devoted or non-obsessive, which are very different things that can often be mistaken for discipline.
And Batman's alignment is whatever the writer of the day wants it to be. Batman of the TV show openly worked with the law. Batman of Miller is wanted by the police and is fairly brutal. Meh. Writers.
==Aelryinth
When I think Lawful Good, I think Sam Vimes.
Ehhh...doesn't fit IMO. Vimes is more of a Neutral Good kinda guy.
Carrot is the LG one of the bunch.
Yeah, but pretty sure the classic comics Batman never drove his Batmobile into a police car so hard it was sliced in half and then exploded with the officers inside.
Yeah, but pretty sure the classic comics Batman never drove his Batmobile into a police car so hard it was sliced in half and then exploded with the officers inside.
Oh please. Those were corrupt cops. No great loss.
That wasn't the reason. The car was unwashed.
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Now, I know that Character Alignment is a highly subjective affair in D&D. I apologize for writing this, but I just had to get this off of my chest after reading some topics on here about Paladins vs. Lawful Evil settlements or encounters.
I just never understand why Lawful Good vs. Lawful Evil seems to be so hard to figure out. Why? Because of this:
The essence of Lawful Good is "laws are important, in so far as they support, protect or promote goodness". It is not "law equals goodness". That is the essence of Lawful Neutral, where one prizes the letter of the law above all things and does not concern oneself with the morality of the law.
If the above statement can be taken as the essence of Lawful Good, then, the obvious addendum is that "if a law actively harms or oppresses others, or otherwise promotes the cause of evil, then it is a bad law, and should be opposed".
In other words, a Lawful Good character is not obligated by their alignment to obey laws that directly serve or benefit evil. Such laws breach the purpose of law in so far as the Lawful Good alignment recognizes it (to whit, promoting the greater good of the community) and thusly are inherently worthless. Paladins serving gods devoted more to Law may wrestle with it, but ultimately their calling is to be a force for Good, which means they are empowered to ignore laws that purposefully aid or empower Evil.
That said, alignment should be tempered by common sense. A Paladin, or any Lawful Good character, does not walk into the middle of Chelish slavemarket and start attacking the slavers -- not because it breaches their alignment, but because common sense dictates that such an action will not help the cause of good, may result in the innocent being harmed by accident, and almost certainly result in their dying having accomplished nothing.
A Lawful Good character always tries to work so that they promote Good with the minimal amount of social unrest. This means they are very procedural and...
I wholeheartedly agree. Very interesting. I'd also normally put in the addendum that Lawful Good characters usually follow a personal code that keeps them on an honest path, but that's optional. Otherwise, I like your interpretation of the Lawful part of Lawful good being the methodology of the character. I think that's quite insightful, and works very well for Lawful Evil as well (with the obvious exception of a different morality).