Is there any real reason for the "Vertical" part of Wall of Iron?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Why couldn't a wizard cast a Wall of Iron horizontally, to act as a bridge over a chasm, or as a floor or ledge merged with a wall or cliffside (or upward at an angle to act as a ramp?) I know the spell assumes you're using it to act as a barrier between you and a monster, or to drop on someone, but I see no reason why you couldn't use it for something more utilitarian.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

I think part of it might be that being too versatile makes spells more powerful, and they go up in level.

In the case of a horizontal wall of iron, I'm guessing it would make dungeon remodelling too easy. It also makes the 'drop on someone' part too easy.


Think of it this way: It says you can double the area by halving the thickness. It is reasonable to assume that the reverse would also be true, halving the area by doubling the thickness. So a wizard who could cast a wall of iron five feet high, 80 feet wide and 4 inches thick (16th level caster):

Width | Height
4" | 60" (5 feet)
8" | 30"
16" | 15"
32" | 7.5"
64" | 3.25" (5 feet 4 inches thick, 3.25 inches "Tall" = Horizontal effect)


A smug answer would be that the wording of the spell rather nicely fits the general description of a wall.

Also, what you describe is still do-able. Cast wall of iron and topple it next round or let another PC delay her action and do so after you've finished casting.

Otherwise, what you describe can be easily achieved with a wall of stone.

Ruyan.

Liberty's Edge

Also, the basic premise is that it is a "wall" of iron, not a "floor" of iron. Though, that being said, nothing prevents you from having this wall created near the edge of a chasm and then tipping it over to span the chasm, assuming you can make it tall/long enough.

EDIT: Ninja'd.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

8 seconds!

Liberty's Edge

Dammit! Ninja'd my "Ninja'd"!


It can be used as a bridge. Just form a vertical wall over the chasm and having someone standing at one end to give it a push so it tips over on its side and forms a flat bridge. Pushing the wall to knock it over is included in the spell description.

Allowing you to form it vertically is probably too complicated because then you would need lots of rules about supporting weight and creatures getting trapped -- as in, if you formed it as a ledge is the cliff/wall strong enough to support the weight or will the whole thing collapse? or what is the effect of a horizontal sheet of iron formed in a room with the same dimensions of the room - does everything there become trapped in place beneath it?


The "Cast and topple" only works if the ceiling is higher than the width of the span you want to cross, and there is a convenient ledge for it to land on at the other side. The ability to cast it so it merges with the wall at the far side is what I was asking about (And not casting it in the air above opponents, since that would, as noted in the first reply, make dropping it on people too easy.

What my wizard wants to do is make an iron floor to split a 20 foot tall floor of his tower into two 10 foot tall floors, and since the iron would be merged in the stone walls around the edge of the tower, it would also increase the tower's overall stability and make it less likely to fall over if some ginormous monster leans up against the tower. Cast-and-topple won't work, since the tower is 70 feet wide on the inside, and as I said, the ceiling is only 20 feet, and of course that wouldn't add the extra structural strength he's after.

Dang Ninjas.

Liberty's Edge

As a GM, I probably wouldn't have a problem with it being used in this context.


This raises some interesting questions regarding what is considered verticle. Seeing as Wizards are notorious for altering gravity...


It takes a DC 40 Strength check to tip it over reliably; otherwise, it has a 50% chance of tipping in either direction. I'm not sure I'd try it given those constraints.


If your ceiling is only 20' high then form a wall which is 20' high and 70' of whatever long. You can still tip it with a push. The ceiling height doesn't make a difference. If you want to floor the whole area you will need to make and topple several walls in a row.
To fortify the actual structure combine it with some regular walls lining the inside of the tower. Slotted together inside the stone walls of the tower would make it quite sturdy.

& for building it doesn't really matter which way the wall falls, since you will be sliding it into place after it drops anyway.


Jeven wrote:
If your ceiling is only 20' high then form a wall which is 20' high and 70' of whatever long.

Except that it needs to wind up 10 feet up, horizontally between the floor and ceiling to act as a floor for another level. In order to be 20 feet tall, you would need to rotate it on some sort of axis rather than toppling it, since it would just wind up on the floor and not merged with the walls 10 feet above the floor.


Mmm, how about a Stone Shape spell plus a winch to hoist your iron wall into place?


blahpers wrote:
It takes a DC 40 Strength check to tip it over reliably; otherwise, it has a 50% chance of tipping in either direction. I'm not sure I'd try it given those constraints.

Nah, don't use Str, bull rush or Punishing Kick it (knock prone or bull rush). You need only 5 feet movement for it to fall over.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Starbuck_II wrote:
blahpers wrote:
It takes a DC 40 Strength check to tip it over reliably; otherwise, it has a 50% chance of tipping in either direction. I'm not sure I'd try it given those constraints.
Nah, don't use Str, bull rush or Punishing Kick it (knock prone or bull rush). You need only 5 feet movement for it to fall over.

A wall of iron is not a creature. It can't gain the prone condition. I'm not sure what bull rush has to do with the situation. For that matter, I'm pretty sure you can't use combat maneuvers against objects. (Yes, even sunder and disarm; they're against a creature, not the objects themselves.)


To bring in realism, since it's pure pig iron, toppling it like that would likely shatter it, and note that the spell simple sez that toppling like that can crush those underneath, not act as a bridge. Iron, not steel.


How do we know it's not pure wrought iron? And just because it doesn't explicitly say it can act like a bridge once toppled, doesn't mean it can't do that.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
DrDeth wrote:
To bring in realism, since it's pure pig iron, toppling it like that would likely shatter it, and note that the spell simple sez that toppling like that can crush those underneath, not act as a bridge. Iron, not steel.

Yeah, I threw my cast Iron Skillet, out the second story window at someone's moving truck, I missed, but cast iron skillet, didn't shatter...

So all of the Iron walls I Make are made from cast iron. Why? I cast it from my spell list.


Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
To bring in realism, since it's pure pig iron, toppling it like that would likely shatter it, and note that the spell simple sez that toppling like that can crush those underneath, not act as a bridge. Iron, not steel.

Yeah, I threw my cast Iron Skillet, out the second story window at someone's moving truck, I missed, but cast iron skillet, didn't shatter...

So all of the Iron walls I Make are made from cast iron. Why? I cast it from my spell list.

Dafuq?


Is there a reason the floor has to be iron? Is there a reason the floor has to be a horizontal wall of iron? I'm honestly curious because I don't see why you wouldn't just use stone shape to make the new floor. If you use wall of iron, then you have to figure out how to make a hole through it for stairs (assuming you want them). If you use stone shape, you just leave a hole in the floor.


Simon Legrande wrote:
Is there a reason the floor has to be iron? Is there a reason the floor has to be a horizontal wall of iron? I'm honestly curious because I don't see why you wouldn't just use stone shape to make the new floor. If you use wall of iron, then you have to figure out how to make a hole through it for stairs (assuming you want them). If you use stone shape, you just leave a hole in the floor.

I'm no engineer, but it seems like a simple way to make a strong tower would be to use Wall of Iron to create a central iron pillar and/or a series of pillars around the outside, and iron floors, and use Wall of Stone to fill out the rest. Using the iron to bear the real weight.


Athaleon wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Is there a reason the floor has to be iron? Is there a reason the floor has to be a horizontal wall of iron? I'm honestly curious because I don't see why you wouldn't just use stone shape to make the new floor. If you use wall of iron, then you have to figure out how to make a hole through it for stairs (assuming you want them). If you use stone shape, you just leave a hole in the floor.
I'm no engineer, but it seems like a simple way to make a strong tower would be to use Wall of Iron to create a central iron pillar and/or a series of pillars around the outside, and iron floors, and use Wall of Stone to fill out the rest. Using the iron to bear the real weight.

Iron is actually more rigid than most building stone. Building a central iron core into a really tall tower is a pretty good way to have it knocked over and/or snapped in half. Now if you cast wall of iron a bunch of times, chopped up the walls, then cast stone shape a bunch of times to make iron rebar reinforced stone you might be onto something. Also, if you tried to balance 3 tons of stone on the outer ring of an iron disk that is only welded onto an iron column in the middle, I suspect bad things would happen. Now depending on the way your world works, all of this could be negated by the "It's magic!" argument.

Dark Archive

§parky wrote:
Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
To bring in realism, since it's pure pig iron, toppling it like that would likely shatter it, and note that the spell simple sez that toppling like that can crush those underneath, not act as a bridge. Iron, not steel.

Yeah, I threw my cast Iron Skillet, out the second story window at someone's moving truck, I missed, but cast iron skillet, didn't shatter...

So all of the Iron walls I Make are made from cast iron. Why? I cast it from my spell list.

Dafuq?

He was saying the Iron Walls were Pig Iron,

I shared a story, then made a joke.

My iron walls are made from Cast Iron.... cuz I "cast" the spell.....

get it? ... come on you get it right? Am I not an intellectual savant compared to the mythical heroes of pinky and the brain?


blahpers wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
blahpers wrote:
It takes a DC 40 Strength check to tip it over reliably; otherwise, it has a 50% chance of tipping in either direction. I'm not sure I'd try it given those constraints.
Nah, don't use Str, bull rush or Punishing Kick it (knock prone or bull rush). You need only 5 feet movement for it to fall over.
A wall of iron is not a creature. It can't gain the prone condition. I'm not sure what bull rush has to do with the situation. For that matter, I'm pretty sure you can't use combat maneuvers against objects. (Yes, even sunder and disarm; they're against a creature, not the objects themselves.)

The gme seems to have a bunch of commands that are used for 'smashing stuff' but all target Differnt things.

You Break doors, you sunder weapons. You use raw Str or a break check for most inanimate objects. I noticed this a while ago when somone asked about using break to bend somones weapon. Theres no Dc's etc for alot of this if you tried to expand the rules to areas the game has other rules for.

On a side note i would not want to repeatedly break the bottom of an imensely heavy object that i cant control its direction of fall. As it is most Pc's do not carry suitable weapons for smashing objects.


Simon Legrande wrote:
Is there a reason the floor has to be iron? Is there a reason the floor has to be a horizontal wall of iron? I'm honestly curious because I don't see why you wouldn't just use stone shape to make the new floor. If you use wall of iron, then you have to figure out how to make a hole through it for stairs (assuming you want them). If you use stone shape, you just leave a hole in the floor.

Well I was also planning to rig the room with an electricity trap...thus the need for a metal floor.


Figure out how to split your tower at the point you want the wall to sit, cast Reverse Gravity to lift the now split tower top, cast Wall of Iron and topple it into place, dismiss Reverse Gravity, cast Stone Shape to seal the stone around the iron. It's not really going to break the game in any way that I can see so I would certainly allow it.

That being said, inserting a floor of iron into a stone tower will actually negatively impact the structural integrity not reinforce it as you might think. Iron does not fuse with stone, there is no way to make your iron floor a single piece with the stone walls. You're going to end up with a circle of weaker stone around where the iron floor is.

The iron has to be recessed into the outer stone wall, it can't be just hovering in place in the middle of the tower. Doing this means having a ring of thinner stone as the outer wall of your tower where the iron floor is sitting. A solid hit (from a catapult for example) at that point is more likely to split your tower and possibly knock the top over, not less.

If you use Stone Shape to encase the iron in stone and then fuse that into the middle of your tower you'll increase the stability a bit. Of course, then you lose whatever function you wanted to get from it being iron in the first place.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Is there any real reason for the "Vertical" part of Wall of Iron? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion