Help beating this Rogue in one turn (in a duel)


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Building a character to counter another is really simple.

It's even possible to make a wizard that can beat him to the pulp with melee attacks, and win very easily.


Wizard is truly the way to go.

I still haven't seen a valid argument, that says why he can't sneak attack with those alchemical weapons. Still he doesn't even NEED to sneak attack, because the pc's i've made don't have high will.

if i make a barbarian, i get controlled, either by stun, or by his fog cloud and darkness...i repeat..is hard even with Improved Blind Fight, and will be a waste of feats. Grappling don't work, he uses a wand of grease also. he uses a wand of silence also. apparently wands don't generate attacks of opportunities when he uses them (i hate those things, i usually ban them, but can't this time)

We are just using Core races, Efreet are not accepted, and without traits.
the items whatsoever...truly needs to be rulled. the launching crossbow only is used to shoot the alchemical weapons, that are TOUCH in nature(so a tank character is an awful idea), he can throw them, he actually doesn't need the bow, there is a arg. hole there, because launching crossbow is still a crossbow and he can use Crossbow Mastery, he told me yesterday he could get his will higher...apparently he is afraid of the "save or dies."

He got a lot of control wands...and a handy haversack to hold em.

he can use stealth if he is in the fog, and if he wins initiative he might want to silence my wiz. a metamagic rod might work i guess, a silent metamagic rod, now he also steals...and might want to steal any item i've got, as a Combat maneuver. like you said, he isn't hard to hit...the problem is...so far, i haven't been able to hit him. he is too versatile, if i waste a lot of money to counter on part of his combo, he uses the other. if i waste money to boost my will and saves, i will be weak in other parts...i will try the wiz though.

Thx everyone for your help.


So core races only... But he gets to use kobold items from an obscure book?

Superstitious invulnerable rager Barbarian with a rage power for scent, boots of tremorscence, and iron will+cloak of resistance+improved iron will. Walk in his general scent direction till you tremorscence him then beat him up.

How is he using wands without provoking? I dont see anything he has granting that.

He only has 5 stun vials. So there is no way he's stun locking a level 10 barb long enough to kill! You have immunity to sneak attacks.

Also get those fogcutter goggles.

Honestly I just believe the enemy player is cheating.


I still think that Greater Invisibility is probably the best opener here. He has no counter to it. Turn 1 - Greater Invisibility. Turn 2 - Stinking Cloud centred on his fog/darkness. Turn 3 - Summon Monster V for a large earth elemental with Darkvision and Tremorsense to the middle of the fog/darkness. Turn 4 - sit around laughing, go grab a beer, eat pizza or *insert derisive action here*.

You can achieve this, or similar effects with a number of classes including Wizard, Witch or Cleric/Oracle with the appropriate domains/mystery.


Fun fact: using a wand does not provoke!


Zilfrel Findadur wrote:

Wizard is truly the way to go.

I still haven't seen a valid argument, that says why he can't sneak attack with those alchemical weapons. Still he doesn't even NEED to sneak attack, because the pc's i've made don't have high will.

if i make a barbarian, i get controlled, either by stun, or by his fog cloud and darkness...i repeat..is hard even with Improved Blind Fight, and will be a waste of feats. Grappling don't work, he uses a wand of grease also. he uses a wand of silence also. apparently wands don't generate attacks of opportunities when he uses them (i hate those things, i usually ban them, but can't this time)

We are just using Core races, Efreet are not accepted, and without traits.
the items whatsoever...truly needs to be rulled. the launching crossbow only is used to shoot the alchemical weapons, that are TOUCH in nature(so a tank character is an awful idea), he can throw them, he actually doesn't need the bow, there is a arg. hole there, because launching crossbow is still a crossbow and he can use Crossbow Mastery, he told me yesterday he could get his will higher...apparently he is afraid of the "save or dies."

He got a lot of control wands...and a handy haversack to hold em.

he can use stealth if he is in the fog, and if he wins initiative he might want to silence my wiz. a metamagic rod might work i guess, a silent metamagic rod, now he also steals...and might want to steal any item i've got, as a Combat maneuver. like you said, he isn't hard to hit...the problem is...so far, i haven't been able to hit him. he is too versatile, if i waste a lot of money to counter on part of his combo, he uses the other. if i waste money to boost my will and saves, i will be weak in other parts...i will try the wiz though.

Thx everyone for your help.

Well to defend my proposal of a tank character: Most good tanks have high saves. DC 20 at level 10 is not unmanageable. Also even when stunned you get your dex to armor. You just take a -2.

Silence is a full round cast time. Make sure he is actually spending his entire turn doing nothing but casting that spell from the wand when he uses it.

Wands are only standard actions if the spell they are casting is not longer than a standard action.

Fog cutting lenses keeps him from stealthing in fog as he would be observed. So would a gauze mask.

Read the rules for the steal combat maneuver VERY closely. Most of the items on a person's character, such as their weapons they are wielding, cannot be stolen. Also if you go the caster route just make sure you have multiple spell pouches.

If he is getting items from a handy haversack remind him that it is a move action, not part of a move action to recover it. Another turn where he doesn't move.

Honestly I would love to throw his level ten rogue at my level 10 witch over a play by post, or skype. You should set us up.


Zilfrel Findadur wrote:
Wizard is truly the way to go.

Just to be clear, magic is the best way to go. A cleric could curb-stomp this guy's head. A druid could face-punch this guy. Sorcerer too. Pretty much any full-caster.

There is - of course - the hard way to nuke this guy from orbit. You could build yourself a nice barbarian with a scroll of antimagic field, several instances of the Fleet feat, some critical feats, Improved Critical and a high-threat-range weapon. Throw in Step Up and he's in for a world of hurt.

Same thing goes for a fighter. Or even a monk.

The problem is that his entire tactic involves magic at his end. That is your only problem. Don't try to negate the magic... shut it down.

If you want to do it the really hard way, pick up a scroll of form of the dragon III to get yourself blindsense. Then you're playing battleship in the fog. For bonus fun, a ring of invisibility should ruin his fun.

Also also, heavy fortification armor gives you a 75% chance of negating any sneak attacks he throws at you.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
PF or even D&D is not a PvP game. So, I can't understand why you want to do this in the first place.
Because it's fun once in a while?

For cooperative gaming experience play pathfinder. For PvP there's WoW.


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Daenar wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
PF or even D&D is not a PvP game. So, I can't understand why you want to do this in the first place.
Because it's fun once in a while?
For cooperative gaming experience play pathfinder. For PvP there's WoW.

There's a great big typo in your post. I'm sure you meant to write:

"You are having WrongBadFun. Stop it. This is my game and it is played the way I want to play it. Go get your own game."

Dude, there's not even a suggestion that the group the OP is involved with is doing this on a day-to-day basis. That they've found an additional use for the d20 system - figure out how to make unkillable builds - is a testament to their inventiveness. What they do in the privacy of their bedroom is no business of yours.


Zilfrel Findadur wrote:
I still haven't seen a valid argument, that says why he can't sneak attack with those alchemical weapons. Still he doesn't even NEED to sneak attack, because the pc's i've made don't have high will.

Says in the Splash Weapon rules that you can't deal precision damage with them.

EDIT: As a side note, he's beating you because he's all Batman'd out with specialized gear to do so. Why aren't you doing the same? There are plenty of items that would just flat out negate some of his tricks and a +5 Cloak of Resistance would go a long way toward making you laugh at that 20 DC Will save. Sorry if this came up but I've only really been skimming here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zilfrel Findadur wrote:

Wizard is truly the way to go.

I still haven't seen a valid argument, that says why he can't sneak attack with those alchemical weapons. Still he doesn't even NEED to sneak attack, because the pc's i've made don't have high will.

if i make a barbarian, i get controlled, either by stun, or by his fog cloud and darkness...i repeat..is hard even with Improved Blind Fight, and will be a waste of feats. Grappling don't work, he uses a wand of grease also. he uses a wand of silence also. apparently wands don't generate attacks of opportunities when he uses them (i hate those things, i usually ban them, but can't this time)

We are just using Core races, Efreet are not accepted, and without traits.
...Thx everyone for your help.

FYI if you don't want to click on the link:

PRD wrote:


Throw Splash Weapon
A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage to all creatures within 5 feet of the target. If the target is Large or larger, you choose one of its squares and the splash damage affects creatures within 5 feet of that square. Splash weapons cannot deal precision-based damage (such as sneak attack).

Core races? Well then class-wise I'd still go with wizard, cave druid in ooze form (no sneak attack, period), or cleric with freedom domain. Or a blind alchemist, bard, wizard, or druid with the Echolocation Spell.


:O thanks for the link, this really changes some things, also dragon form is something i would like to try :)


He has many weaknesses :

First, he has only 70% chance of activating one of its wands, which take him 1 standard action to activate. Without his items from non official pathfinder books, he needs a move action to retrieve any on of them. That's important.

Second, even with its best attack with alchemical items, he will maybe (DC 20 will save) stun its target for 1d2 round, and if he stuns it for one round, then they will both have lost their round for nothing. All his other alchemical items are at best a nuisance, at worse jokes.
Also remember that reloading his crossbow is a move action with rapid reload. That means he can only fire once per round.
And g%+$ luck for sneak attacks, as he only as a pitiful melee weapon and...

...third, this rogue is so fragile he could die from a cold or flue, let alone a foe.

Finally, his equipment and skills are not well calculated/in your criteria (some items, such as the Fungus vials counts as crafted, but he can't craft them, and his weapons are missing the masterwork + base weapon price). In addition, a lot of his equipment comes from obscure books (the cracked ioun stone, most of his alchemical equipment, his crossbow, his wrist sheath, ...) including non-official ones (such as Adventurers armory, that have his crossbow and wrist sheath, amongst other things).
He has too many skill ranks.


An easy way I can see to beat him is be a paladin or anti-paladin to counter which alignment he is. If neutral I would go paladin as to get a swift action heal. At 10th level a DC 20 Will should be easy with minimal investment. Half-Orc for dark vision and other items to see through the fog. And smite him in to the Abyss.


A cavalier of the sword multiclass build will have a very similar initiative bonus and can 1 shot him. I'd build this, but it is very similar to the barbarian pounce class.


Be an inquisitor based on dex. By adding wisdom, dex, improved initiative, +2 from trait, plus reroll ur going to win initiative and then with Bane and judgements u could easily kill a rogue In a full round attack.


Avh wrote:

...third, this rogue is so fragile he could die from a cold or flu, let alone a foe.

You sir, win the internet this day. :D


Sub_Zero wrote:
Avh wrote:

...third, this rogue is so fragile he could die from a cold or flu, let alone a foe.

You sir, win the internet this day. :D

Well, a 10th level character with 18 AC and 70 HP is that fragile.


here is an idea

play a half elf waves oracle with the darkvision alternate racial ability from the advanced race guide and the mist sight revelation thingie, multiclass 4 levels of fighter with 6 of oracle, pick up s bow and gloves a dueling with the best suit of platemail you can buy, turn the rogue into a pincushion from range, take the weapon master (bows) archetype to get early weapon training, essentially, you are an archer that scoffs at his tactic, because you know where he is and can percieve him, he doesn't get his sneak attack bonus.


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Avh wrote:
Sub_Zero wrote:
Avh wrote:

...third, this rogue is so fragile he could die from a cold or flu, let alone a foe.

You sir, win the internet this day. :D
Well, a 10th level character with 18 AC and 70 HP is that fragile.

I can picture it now.

Challenger: Grand Master, I need advice how I might beat this dastardly rogue

Master: Wait for it

Challenger: I don't understand, you want me to avoid him?

Master: Wait for it

Challenger: How can I just wait, he's got a high initiative and can poison me from afar. I need help or else I'll surely..... oh he just got influenza, nevermind he's done for. Thanks anyway.

Master: Challenge passed.


Diviner Wizard able to cast Feeblemind. He's an arcane caster so I assume his will is atrocious. Get Improved Initiative, reactionary, make it an elf with the racial +2 to initiative. Win initiative, cast feeblemind, laugh.


haruhiko88 wrote:
Diviner Wizard able to cast Feeblemind. He's an arcane caster so I assume his will is atrocious. Get Improved Initiative, reactionary, make it an elf with the racial +2 to initiative. Win initiative, cast feeblemind, laugh.

You're missing:

a} the rogue in question has something like +22 to Initiative. That's not a front that the enemy should be engaged upon in this war. Unless you can pull off +32 you'll have less than a 50% chance of winning.

b} once the rogue goes first, the opponent (our hero) can't see him.


Anguish wrote:
haruhiko88 wrote:
Diviner Wizard able to cast Feeblemind. He's an arcane caster so I assume his will is atrocious. Get Improved Initiative, reactionary, make it an elf with the racial +2 to initiative. Win initiative, cast feeblemind, laugh.

You're missing:

a} the rogue in question has something like +22 to Initiative. That's not a front that the enemy should be engaged upon in this war. Unless you can pull off +32 you'll have less than a 50% chance of winning.

WRONG ! You need +22 to have 50% chance of winning. With +32, you're at 86% chance of winning initiative.

The diviner wizard should have something like +17+DEX to initiative at level 10, without any items. Just add the same ioun stone and the same gauntlet, and you're at +22+DEX, possibly better than the rogue.

Quote:
b} once the rogue goes first, the opponent (our hero) can't see him.

Why ?

I mean, darkness doesn't grant total concealment, so it's useless to evade Feeblemind (which would be a +2 will save against a DC over 20).

Silence can be resisted with a will save (at least +9 for a DC 13) and/or be skip simply by moving.

fog cloud is the best here, but can be countered in many ways, including summons, area of effects spells, blasted away with wind effects (wind wall, gust of wind), seen through with fogcutting lenses, using another sense, using perception for sound instead of vision (with easy perception checks, cause you can't use stealth while attacking), ...

Really, this rogue is no big deal. Just use your mind, and you can kill him in a single round with pretty much any character. It would be even easier if he used legal equipment and skill ranks though.


Anguish wrote:
haruhiko88 wrote:
Diviner Wizard able to cast Feeblemind. He's an arcane caster so I assume his will is atrocious. Get Improved Initiative, reactionary, make it an elf with the racial +2 to initiative. Win initiative, cast feeblemind, laugh.

You're missing:

a} the rogue in question has something like +22 to Initiative. That's not a front that the enemy should be engaged upon in this war. Unless you can pull off +32 you'll have less than a 50% chance of winning.

b} once the rogue goes first, the opponent (our hero) can't see him.

Get a familiar like he does, and similar items. Before items and stats a wizard can get to +17.

+4 improved init+2 racial+2 trait+5 diviner+4 familiar. With items and stats you can crank that much higher. Say it's a base elf you should have a 16 dex at start, +4 more dex with a cat's grace spell so that puts you at the +22 followed by an anticipate peril spell for +27 before items. I think with items you can put that at or over the 32 mark.


Yah, I'd think a Earth elemental Wildshaping druid could make this guy cry. Echolocation, Earth-glide, summons out the wazoo to locate and beat down the rogue.


Don't like druids that much xD


Anything with a fly speed greater than 30, and a gun... Don't let him get away >:)

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