Kitsune - How other party members will deal with it?

[Bruno Pinto]

Hello everyone,

I'm going to start running the Reign of Winter campaign soon, and I already got my players set up with they characters ready to start it.

One of my players picked the race Kitsune, and told me secretly aboutit, so everyone thinks that he's a human. No other player knows he will play a kitsune, and when they characters meet in-game, the Kitsune will be in human form, so it won't be recognizable.

Mechanically, how can I start giving hints to the other players about the Kitsune nature? When should I make them roll perception to see if the can find any hints in the Kitsune's behaviour?

I apologize for my english, and I'm glad to start a discussion on this matter :)

[MattR1986]

I'm in the same situation. My character is Kitsune, but always stays as human and identifies as human. No one has a clue at this point. If the player doesn't want the others to find out I don't see why you'd be dropping hints about his character for it. Talk to the Kitsune guy before and tell him its going to come up when he first comes in and to be ready for it. When you look at him, he gives the roll # + disguise + 10 I think it is to disguise as human. This is the target number.

When they meet him don't immediately say "Ok, everyone roll perception". It looks highly suspicious and they'll think he's a demon or something. After a few minutes have them all roll perception and look at the Kitsune guy, so he knows to give you his disguise and not his perception total. If any of them roll higher than him say something like "Bob, you notice something slightly off about "Tim". He doesn't really seem to be exactly what he appears to be.

[TriOmegaZero]

Yeah, I think this is something the player should be deciding. If you want to do this, give him a heads up that you'll be rolling his Disguise check against their Perception to keep it a secret. I have my own kitsune who has only revealed her 'true form' twice in 9 levels of PFS. A GM just callously outing her would put me off for the rest of the game.

[blahpers]

You can go about this one of two ways, as I see it:

1. You can make the character make Disguise checks gainst the party's Perception whenever a party member seems suspicious. This will likely get tiresome.

2. You can let the player decide when to drop a hint, barring external influences (such as getting noticed by an NPC with a reason to blurt out his findings).

I prefer the latter approach. It empowers the player to decide how to roleplay the kitsune's differences. Maybe the kitsune has an irrational need to run away from dogs (or dogs tend to bark and chase him), or maybe he just really, really likes chicken tartare.

[strayshift]

How do they maintain their form while sleeping? Potentially whilst unconscious? Do you have to spend a certain amount of time in your 'natural' form? Discuss it with the player.

I have a Kitsune who generally is human to those who she doesn't know but the Paladin and Cleric she has pretty much solidly adventures with (the other characters have dipped in and out) they know.

[Bruno Pinto]

Thank you guys, I'll talk with the player and let him decide when he wants to come out to the rest of the party (if he wants to), otherwise I'll just avoid the perception checks at all, unless the other players are investigating the Kitsune, or staring at him really close, then I might throw a "you find him licking is hand" or a "you see him sniffing the air" around if they pass their Perception checks.

Thank you for the advices here :) really helpful.

[zefig]

I tried this briefly in PFS but unfortunately the character died at 3rd level. It worked out fine until then. It did help that I was playing with a friend doing the same thing, as a pair of twins who would cover for each other. So having a partner who's in on it to share a tent with, cover for him, etc might not be a bad idea.

And, since you're GMing, I urge you to read up heavily on Greta in book 2. Hilarity could easily ensue with this setup.

[MattR1986]

Ya as was mentioned figure out also how you rule sleeping or if he's knnocked unconscious. My guy never leaves human form and its an action to go backn so we've ruled he stays in it till he decides to revert.

[Matsu Miyuki]

I did not find any hints that kitsune revert to their true form if sleeping. Please correct me.

[Bruno Pinto]

Never read anything about it before, do they turn into fox-folk again when they are sleeping?

[TriOmegaZero]

It does say that it works as the alter self spell, which has a duration of minutes per level. So technically, a kitsune must concentrate on maintaining human form every one to twenty minutes.

[Owly]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

It does say that it works as the alter self spell, which has a duration of minutes per level. So technically, a kitsune must concentrate on maintaining human form every one to twenty minutes.

Thanks for spotting that.

I had a kitsune rogue in my group recently, and he let his disguise slip for dramatic purposes during a scene, and the other players began teasing him.

"Can I scratch you behind your ears?"
"Are you housebroken?"

Priceless.

I'd probably simply allow a very perceptive character to notice (maybe slipping her a note) that "You notice ______ has brilliant amber eyes." and let it go at that.

I might rule that in a place where high magic is occurring, the player casts a multi-tailed fox shadow on the wall. Keep it subtle, in other words.

[MattR1986]

I would think it would bring on more things like: WHAT DOES kitSUNE SAY?! RINGDINGDING DA DING DA DING DA DING

Seriously bro? What do you say? What is the secret of the Kitsune?

And even though it says its like Alter Self I find it hard to believe a polymorphing creature (lets say it was a commoner) would have to revert back and forth every minute or keep concentrating on the ability. The only time I'd think it "may" change is involuntary loss of consciousness like below 0 hp or something knocking you out.

[Kobold Catgirl]

"Dog goes woof, cat goes meow, bird goes tweet—"
"And bard goes ow."
"Ow! Stop biting my leg!"

[The Archive]

Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Change Shape (Su)

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature’s description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their descriptions.

Since the ability is a change shape ability, a kitsune doesn't have to refresh the duration ever. Once they're human they stay like that until they change back... or if they get dispelled.

Of course, if you want to, you could make it that they do change back if unconscious or something. Otherwise they roll disguise and everyone else rolls perception to notice something off.

[Alexander Augunas]

The Archive wrote:

Since the ability is a change shape ability, a kitsune doesn't have to refresh the duration ever. Once they're human they stay like that until they change back... or if they get dispelled.

Of course, if you want to, you could make it that they do change back if unconscious or something. Otherwise they roll disguise and everyone else rolls perception to notice something off.

Exactly what I was going to link. How lame would it be if a doppleganger had to constantly refresh its disguise? Or if a lycanthrope could only assume its monstrous form for minutes per day instead of the whole night?

As what Endzeigeist calls a "kitsune enthusiast," I would say that this element of the race, the alternate form reveal, is one of the most fun aspects of being a kitsune. Since I have two separate kitsune characters, I've had the reveal twice now and ironically, both times occurred when I dropped my human form in order to regain my bite attack to use while I was grappled.

Honestly, I don't verbally hint at my character's true nature unless my character is the type to make slips of the tongues. (One of mine is and did, the other one didn't.) I usually hint at it with uncharacteristic moments of aloofness. For example, I love playing high-Charisma characters and both of my kitsune have been sociable folks. But both of them have had moments where they'll randomly go off on their own and do something related to their true form; for example, my one kitsune character would duck out every now and then to bathe in private so he could groom his fur. The other kitsune took the time to carry and assemble a tent for sleeping in everywhere he went because he hated sleeping in his human form (he likened it to sleeping with your armor on). For me, hints like, "YOUR SHADOW HAS FOX TAILS!" try too hard. Behaviors make the best hints before the reveal.

[Alexander Augunas]

Owly wrote:

I had a kitsune rogue in my group recently, and he let his disguise slip for dramatic purposes during a scene, and the other players began teasing him.

"Can I scratch you behind your ears?"
"Are you housebroken?"

Priceless.

If I was the player in that group, quips like that during the dramatic moment would bother me. A lot. Especially if my reveal was part of the scene's drama.

In my above post, I noted that both of my characters have had their reveals while grappled. In the case of my second character, the "scene" was during Wrath of the Righteous's first book, where my character was being grappled by a mandragoa (the terrifying plant-baby thing). My character returned to his true form to bite it, but on his next turn he got injected with the creature's poison instead, which gave him the confused condition until the poison could be cured. My party had to physically knock me out and drag me upstairs all the while wondering what the heck had happened to me. They had thought that the plant monster had polymorphed me or something, which was a perfect atmosphere for when my character finally regained sanity. Having everyone going, "It's okay! We'll cure you!" and then looking down to see your true self is a very, "Oh ...." moment. If my fellow PCs had started quip-slinging at my character that very second, it would have destroyed the scene for me.

Now, quips like that AFTER the dramatic scene wouldn't bother me. Whether or not a character realizes it, jokes that that are a sign of comfort and acceptance. Silence in this case is a sign of fear and discomfort.

Quote:

I'd probably simply allow a very perceptive character to notice (maybe slipping her a note) that "You notice ______ has brilliant amber eyes." and let it go at that.

That's a very good clue, but if I were GMing I wouldn't drop a clue like that for my player unless my other player directly stated that he was going to examine the kitsune.

Quote:

I might rule that in a place where high magic is occurring, the player casts a multi-tailed fox shadow on the wall. Keep it subtle, in other words.

That's too much for me, especially considering that virtually no Pathfinder kitsune actually have multiple tails. Terrible feat chain and all. ;-)

[Jamie Charlan]

Our table rarely keeps such details hidden from the group unless they plan on the inevitable occurring. Too high a chance of 'doppelganger SOP' occurring.

Well, from a more theoretical and less focused-fire standpoint, if a party is to trust each-other with <gear/lives/magicitems/lovedones/equipment/multiverse/weapons/souls/trea sure> as they so often are forced to do, being unwilling to share such basic information is a pretty big faux-pas, so you should at least do so with the same understanding as you have playing a CE assassin in a party with two paladins.

[phantom1592]

I played a vampire in a Ravenloft 1890's game and kept that secret from the group for YEARS. They didn't find out till after the game and we all sat down to read 'the journal'...

The 'secret' was one of my favorite aspects of that game. I would highly recommend not taking that away from the player. Let him rise or fall on his own merits. If he can keep the secret going, more power to him.

[Aziraya Zhwan]

I was a Kitsune in a game one time. Every other person in the group was insanely serious about RP and had all of their characters go "Yeah, we don't trust that person purely because they're something we don't know about". They basically forced me out of the game because apparently every one of them (6 others) were essentially being racists against my character.

[RJGrady]

Just think how awesome it will be when all the players find out they're playing kitsune and hiding their nature from each other.

[zergtitan]

I think at first you should address your other characters to make perception checks during times the Kitsune character is stressed or emotional. But only do such checks for characters who are nearby or looking at the kitsune.

start the reveal with small features, his eyes change color for a moment or his hair when he is excited, his canines appear sharper and longer when he is angry or hungry.

then when the others start to find suspicions reveal more. when he is extremely happy his ears show,(like when he saves the life of someone he cares about or has defeated a tough foe.) When he is ready to show more of his character have his tail show in a moment of carelessness.

And finally for the big reveal, when he is ready to come out, have him go full kitsune in the middle of the fight and apply the shocked condition to your enemies as they too witness this human just transform right in front of them. (especially if they use a spell that works differently on a shapeshifter.)

[kBro]

I'm currently playing a Kitsune-like Ninja character (Kitsune-like in that she has kitsune shapeshifting magic but her natural form is that of a catfolk). Originally I intended to hide my true form as long as possible in the campaign until something deemed my natural form necessary. That didn't happen, and I ended up revealing my natural form in the first session.

Spoiler:

At the very start of the campaign, our characters were tasked with a challenge that required a lot of climb checks. I had a decent climb score, and I was doing fine for the first four checks. But on the fifth check I failed, and fell 30ft. Now, in a previous campaign, I played a Ninja who was notorious for falling off of things, including taking enough fall damage enough times to qualify for the achievement feat Lifting Hands of God. This ninja also took the climb speed ninja trick at 2nd level, but STILL was falling off of things on a regular basis. So, after failing and falling AGAIN, I wasn't having any of it.

My character promptly stood up (after being healed by a cleric), brushed herself off, and shapeshifted into her natural form in front of all the people watching. She then immediately ascended the full distance in a single round (due to having a climb speed in her natural form) and won the challenge. All those watching were shocked to say the least, but strange and exotic things were common enough in the setting that it didn't cause trouble. The various NPCs were definitely wary of my character for a while. The other party members didn't seem too affected since one was an cleric undine, one a caster elf, and the last a gunslinger human. The undine especially didn't care since the two of us were the strangest individuals around, but the gunslinger still messes with my character (not that I mind, it's mostly playful jabs and threats).

I took the Fox Shape feat altered to a tiny cat based on this cat since it matched my character's fighting style, and the Realistic Likeness feat to let me mimic any encountered humanoid (gm let me extend it to humanoid for fun hijinks, though I retain the same stats). I also took the Swift Shapechanger feat to hopefully use my shapeshifting as part of combat for misdirection and confusion, and then Vulpine Pounce for more combat fun times.

For the rest of the campaign my character would just use the form most suited for the situation. In social encounters she would use her human form. If she needed to scout or stealth she'd use her cat form. In combat she would alter between natural or cat form to fit the situation (cat form had pounce, combined with rogue Scout archetype). Any NPCs that were with us consistently didn't care about it since weirdness was commonplace (undine party leader). Key NPCs that knew of our exploits would know my nature, but didn't care (again, undine party leader).

Ultimately, the player should never feel forced to reveal his character's nature. Talk with them to figure out how they want to reveal it, if they do at all. The optimal reveal to me would leave the rest of the party with a feeling of "oh! he's a kitsune! that's awesome!" rather than a "oh... he's a kitsune... that's weird..." kind of feeling. If and when it's revealed, the TOUCH-FLUFFY-TAIL like comments will probably happen, but if the reveal is well done it shouldn't be a negative. You can also throw some situations that might cause the character to act Kitsune-like rather than human, but be sure to check with the player first. Another thing to remember is True Seeing will reveal his true form, so an NPC with this might see it and make some offhand remarks about it, but you'd never want to outright reveal it for the player unless the player is okay with it. And also, make sure to understand WHY the player chooses to hide his form beyond the obvious reasons. Is the character uncomfortable in his natural form? Were they shunned as a child for being different? Were they brought up taught to always hide so now he does it as a habit? Is the character actually very comfortable with himself and doesn't care what others think if they find out? Does the character remain human out of convenience? Figure out how the player wants to roleplay his Kitsune nature.

[SlimGauge]

I have a race-boon Kitsune bard in PFS that I only play at conventions. Like the story above, the character only reverted to kitsune form while held underwater in a grapple to gain the bite. When the creature that was grappling was dispatched, the character spent an extra action underwater to resume human form before surfacing.

[Liam Warner]

Jamie Charlan wrote:

Our table rarely keeps such details hidden from the group unless they plan on the inevitable occurring. Too high a chance of 'doppelganger SOP' occurring.

Well, from a more theoretical and less focused-fire standpoint, if a party is to trust each-other with <gear/lives/magicitems/lovedones/equipment/multiverse/weapons/souls/trea sure> as they so often are forced to do, being unwilling to share such basic information is a pretty big faux-pas, so you should at least do so with the same understanding as you have playing a CE assassin in a party with two paladins.

One time I got to play a Kitsune (I want that boon SlimGuage) I had a good reason to not trust at least one other player (he nearly got the entire party killed on one occasion trying to follow me in order to find out where a hermit lived after the group decided they'd let me do it as I'd already met him and he was a hermit who lived alone in a very dangerous area because he disliked people) and so I kept my true form secret and hidden. Of course I did play some pranks on the guy like changing his clothes for a very flattering girls set I had made, not that he appreciated the comments in the bar that night.

@Zergtitan
Those kind of slip ups e.g. ears appearing when happy in my opinion should only happen when young or playing a character with less emotional control. A dedicated, focused Kitsune isn't likely to have involuntary changes even when stressed any more than a mage has involuntarily fireballs firing at people when stressed.

Of course as I said this isn't universal and I can see some Kitsune having less control over their shape changes especially if they grow up in an area where its common and accepted so they don't actually see a reason not to have their tail pop out and wage when happy.

[Jamie Charlan]

Not trusting the others can be a good reason not to show your entire hand, but it's worth repeating: you're giving cause to not be trusted (and people often do pick up on the fact that you're hiding something, if not what it is) in turn, and so should be prepared for sudden "escalation" in the long run. It isn't necessarily right or wrong, just a natural consequence.

I like to encourage, when reasonable/possible, a party that actually trusts eachother a little.