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GreyWolfLord: If only there was some way your poor, disenfranchised players could stand up for themselves. Yet alas, one would actually have to be LINKED to this thread in order to read for themselves. Clearly that is too heavy a burden for you to lay upon their sagging shoulders when you can simply tell them what you think others are saying.
So brave, so selfless...
Your post was deleted because it was making sweeping gender generalizations that were irrelevant to the discussion. If you have questions or concerns about moderation policies, please direct them to webmaster@paizo.com
Sorry, just got out of an argument with the other lady gamers of our group. I think they were a little irked. They did not see their comments on what they'd like to see as gender generalizations, as it was very specific on exactly what they wanted to see.
It was not general as per them, it was very specific in what they like in men, and what they'd like to see in NPC's (using CoT as a counterpoint to what they do NOT want to see).
Anyways, tempers have cooled, luckily, with only one shattered screen as a result. I was in the hotspot for a few minutes there.
I mean, they were extremely specific...so I don't have an answer why Paizo lets men get away with a ton of sexism, but the minute a women states what she likes...it gets censored.
Anyways, it's over, and we are coming to a better solution so I don't get blamed for things like this.
I still GM for a group of all women (which I gather is not the norm, as there is only one other group composed entirely of women that I know of)and have my views.
Positives...continue to have strong women NPC's in adventures.
Negatives...do away with the male chauvinism...it's overpowering in some of the adventures.
I'd put in what they women in our group want, but apparently that's been labeled generalizations and sexist (against whom? Guys?) as it's women discussing what they want in male NPC's and that is Taboo (in a thread about the lack of male love interests in an AP of all things).
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Would they be willing to join the forum and talk about it?
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It has always been my experience that if someone makes an unbecoming comment about women they get dinged. So a comment about favoring sexist opinions in regards to females seems odd to me.
Also, I thought generalizations about men was considered acceptable. The thing is i'm only half joking.
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Does this really need to be a thing? As GM can you just add interests if your players want them?I think so, and here's why.
First, not all GMs are ready to introduce new NPCs to the AP. It's a major help to make sure that potential love interests are present for all possible characters, already written into the story.
Second, the player base might skew male and hetero, but that doesn't necessarily mean the character base does. I'm a straight man, but I regularly play characters of all sorts of genders and orientations. If I decide to play a straight female character, it would be nice to have men to choose from.
Third, although I don't think there necessarily needs to be a 1:1 male-female ratio of love interests, I do think that there should be variety available for everyone. So, multiple women and one man won't cut it. If you aren't interested in that one guy, for whatever reason, too bad.
Fourth, even when I'm playing a straight guy, I like a little competition. If I fight for the attentions of a person, it's just that much sweeter to know I beat out that other guy. And hey, when it's an NPC vying for the attention of another NPC, well, it's just bad GMing for it to be all about the two of them, with us PCs guaranteed to remain on the sidelines. No, the good story will include my actions.
Finally, I'd just like to point out that from my point of view, there aren't any potential love interests for my style of straight guy in The Wormwood Mutiny. Sandara Quinn is trying too hard. Rosie... maybe, but she's got her own crush. But hey, that's just me.
Fair enough. One of my group recently came to the conclusion that he cannot run APs because he has to do too much prep work. He wants to be able to run them right out of the book untouched and have a good game of it. I guess I just don't look at APs that way. For me its a well fleshed outline for an adventure. I am still going to have to tailor the AP to my group and that usually includes romances if they desire them. Hope the thread works out for y'all.
As was brought up in another threadthat shall remain nameless, but seems a potentially legitimate complaint, there seem to be significantly more female love interests available in the APs than male ones. If true, this is obviously a problem...so is it true?
I haven't read all the APs...I'm holding out hope for playing some of them, but of the ones I have read (CotCT, SD, LoF, Serpent's Skull, and Wrath of the Righteous) I do seem to recall less potential male romantic options than female ones...though as a straight guy, I am perhaps only remembering those relevant to my interests.
So, let's see if this is true. Over the next week or two, I'm gonna go through the above listed APs and try and spot at least somewhat fleshed-out characters who might be likely to serve as a PC love interest. I'l then post numbers, with a list of who those people are in spoiler tags. I'd appreciate others doing the same for other APs (or ones I haven't gotten to yet).
Let's see if this is really a problem that needs to be addressed.
I'm not sure I see an issue here. I'm not sure if it's a problem at all... Certainly not one that should offend anyone.
Here are some reasons why I think this:
I feel like demographics probably play a part in it. I am probably right smack in the middle of the target demographic... However, I'd like to think myself very understanding and sensitive to other people's wanting to be represented, since I am a minority in quite a few aspects of my life... But I've never really understood why some folk demand representation, and get offended when they are not catered too. (I'm not implying that the OP is one such individual)
Secondly, the GM is the one that should be very aware of the demographics around his table. I think it's the GM's responsibility to adjust things of that nature for his individual group... Just like so many other aspects of the hobby.
In any case, how does one define a love interest? If the writer of the book tells you it is? Why limit yourself? APs are chock full of npcs of all sorts, that can interact in so many ways with PCs... You just have to think outside the box and have abit of intuition into what your PCs need.
I don't know, I don't see basis for a witch hunt here.
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My 2 cents: Gamers like choice, even if it's for the optional romance rules. I vote for more possible male relationships!
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I mean, they were extremely specific...so I don't have an answer why Paizo lets men get away with a ton of sexism, but the minute a women states what she likes...it gets censored.
Perhaps it came off as more general than intended. The internet is often a poor tool for getting across what you really mean.
And I've seen a lot of people get their posts deleted for saying sexist things regarding women, while this is the first for women targeting men. So...yeah. I don't think you're correct on this one.
Negatives...do away with the male chauvinism...it's overpowering in some of the adventures.
Examples?
No, seriously, I'm not able to think of any characters in adventures who aren't main villains you are supposed to kill dead portrayed as chauvinistic...I'm sure a vaguely sympathetic one crops up somewhere, but it's hard to come up with any.
And even if there are a few the attitudes of characters in the game are not the same as those taken by the game, or the writers. What about the way the adventures are written is chauvinistic?
I may be a guy, but as a rather serious feminist, I do look out for that sort of thing, and barring the problem I started this thread to discuss (more attractive women and female love interests than the male equivalents...which I admit I didn't notice until it was pointed out to me) I'm really not thinking of anything. If you have some other issues to point out, please do so, hopefully without (possibly inadvertently) insulting the whole gender.
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I'm not sure I see an issue here. I'm not sure if it's a problem at all... Certainly not one that should offend anyone.
Offend? Almost certainly not. This isn't the end of the world, nor a deep dark conspiracy. But, if true, it is a problem, and one that should be examined.
Here are some reasons why I think this:
Alright, let's hear 'em.
I feel like demographics probably play a part in it. I am probably right smack in the middle of the target demographic... However, I'd like to think myself very understanding and sensitive to other people's wanting to be represented, since I am a minority in quite a few aspects of my life... But I've never really understood why some folk demand representation, and get offended when they are not catered too. (I'm not implying that the OP is one such individual)
Well, speaking as a straight white guy...no, I'm not offended, and I'm already being catered to by, basically, society as a whole.
But in that previous thread, several women complained of this same problem...and when I thought about it, I came to the conclusion that they were correct to do so. This thread is about trying to figure out if I'm right about that.
It's not really even about finding a solution (the solution is obvious), just determining if there really are notably more female than male love interests.
Secondly, the GM is the one that should be very aware of the demographics around his table. I think it's the GM's responsibility to adjust things of that nature for his individual group... Just like so many other aspects of the hobby.
Sure, agreed entirely. But the whole point of an AP is to minimize the amount of work of this sort that is necessary to run the game. If there's a lot of need to do this kind of thing for a particular, commonly occurring, element...something has gone wrong.
In any case, how does one define a love interest? If the writer of the book tells you it is? Why limit yourself?
I'm defining them as relatively attractive people, usually with stats, that the PCs are likely to interact with on an extended basis, and are not in an existing relationship. That seems like a reasonable category to have equal numbers of men and women in, don't you think?
The only AP that explicitly lists romance per se options is Jade Regent. And I'm not even going into that one, since I still want to play it some time.
APs are chock full of npcs of all sorts, that can interact in so many ways with PCs... You just have to think outside the box and have abit of intuition into what your PCs need.
Sure. But sometimes shoehorning in such characters can be disruptive, some GMs don't think to do it, some players aren't very good at communicating their desires, etc.
Your argument is basically another version of "But you can house rule it." It's true, and a solution to the problem, but the fact that you need to do something to fix the problem indicates that it is, in fact, a problem, y'know?
I don't know, I don't see basis for a witch hunt here.
Anything can become a witch hunt. No, really, anything. Still, I'll state for the record, that in no way was it my intent to accuse or disparage anyone. The people who write the APs do a wonderful job and have my gratitude, and are, I'm basically positive, not doing anything like this intentionally. But it might well be happening nonetheless, and if nobody ever brings a problem to Paizo's attention, how can they be expected to fix it?
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Okay, so, returning to my original point for this thread, let's look at Legacy of Fire:
Dashki - Male, something vaguely resembling a traitor, but only vaguely, and both not evil, and fairly attractive as pictured.
Garavel - Male, hung up on Almah, but that's one sided, not bad looking...though not that good looking. Not an especially nice personality, either. May be pushing things a little including both him and Dashki.
Felliped - Male, rescued by the PCs...doesn't seem bad looking, and he's a Bard,so he should be charming. His friend Oxvard is possible...but I feel like I'm already pushing the bounds of what's possible to justify as a potential love interest, so I'm not including him.
Undrella - Female, harpy, potential ally of the PCs.
Haleen - Female, one PC's sister, probably. Still available to others
Kardswann - Male, main villain, but he's under mind-control and savable by a dedicated group.
Four male, three female there, possibly five male if you stretch your definitions of 'potential love interest'. But you really need to stretch it to get a full five, as several of the four are marginal, IMO.
None here.
Marzuk - Male, attractive merchant
Badra - Female, attractive merchant
Kazim - Female, attractive Cleric
So, two each, male and female.
Lahapreset - Female, Protean leader. Technically, some other Proteans (including male ones) might be available, but only one has a name, and nothing's said about them.
Obherak - Male, Shaitan leader ,has concubines but, as noted above, that's plural
So, three, two female, one male. The females are more accessible, IMO, but not unreasonably so.
Only one, female.
Only one, female
Total: So, total of eight female, six male. Though some of those six are kinda marginal. Not as notable as Serpent's skull, but a bit of a trend developing...
Though in this case, I know for a fact one of the female possibilities was originally male, then adapted to female for reasons of art (as in, they had female shaitan art and were like "Oh dear, we need one of those in a prominent role..."), which'd make the gender numbers even...so perhaps some evidence that this is a recent problem, rather than one with the APs as a whole.
I'll look at more recent APs next (WotR and RoW) to see whether this a problem at all (I'd still bet it is), and then maybe double back to Second Darkness to see if that trend holds.
Dot for information when running APs.
Would they be willing to join the forum and talk about it?
Definitely encouraged them to do so last night. Most of them don't want to join a "computer forum" or whatever...we do have one who actually works in computer programming, she might. She feels that a lot of these boards are not "friendly" however, and sticks more towards other boards (though I'm not so certain computer programming boards are less male oriented either...but it does deal with her work).
I do think it could be interesting to start a discrimination of woman in gaming thread, thinking about it. They brought up some really unique perspectives (as well as horror stories in gaming stores) last night when we had a more in depth conversation. It isn't just this board, but a whole lot of experiences in regards with rpg players in general that have turned them off in some instances of dealing with some boards and areas of gaming.
In a nutshell, there are some REALLY REALLY good gamers out there that are pleasant and they love to interact and play games with (and these ladies play rpgs as well as boardgames, so both communities). However, there are others that are not quite so great in dealing with them, but that's probably should be another thread.
Assistant Software Developer
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Would they be willing to join the forum and talk about it?Definitely encouraged them to do so last night. Most of them don't want to join a "computer forum" or whatever...we do have one who actually works in computer programming, she might. She feels that a lot of these boards are not "friendly" however, and sticks more towards other boards (though I'm not so certain computer programming boards are less male oriented either...but it does deal with her work).
I do think it could be interesting to start a discrimination of woman in gaming thread, thinking about it. They brought up some really unique perspectives (as well as horror stories in gaming stores) last night when we had a more in depth conversation. It isn't just this board, but a whole lot of experiences in regards with rpg players in general that have turned them off in some instances of dealing with some boards and areas of gaming.
In a nutshell, there are some REALLY REALLY good gamers out there that are pleasant and they love to interact and play games with (and these ladies play rpgs as well as boardgames, so both communities). However, there are others that are not quite so great in dealing with them, but that's probably should be another thread.
Yes, I've had a lot of terrible times of it myself, but I found these boards to be comparatively welcoming. The game store that I met paizo at originally was better than most. The owners worked the game store together quite often until their divorce. Until then it was a great welcoming place and Rose was the best. Paizo came to our store and gave a talk and I loved how they didn't talk down to me. They showed us some of the art from the original Runelords and I remember very specifically that they had 3 women in that first party, not just one token female character. They had a woman of color. They had a woman who was very revealing which is what I'm used to, but the other two were fairly well clothed. I came to the boards to see what was up and there were women not being shouted down constantly. I have been forever graetful to Paizo for that. It was easy to get shouted down in other messageboards and I left those boards after constantly being talked over, even on specific sub forums that were meant for women to comment. I'm not nearly as active here as a fan anymore but we really take that stuff seriously. So if you see sexist posts being put up that we haven't addressed, please flag it, there is a specifically a flag for racists/sexist/homophobic that we take super seriously. We do our best to keep the boards open for discussion so that everyone feels welcome.
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Well, Lissa you'll be glad to know that the old stereotype of gamer is dying away:) i play with my daughter and her 4th grade classmates (Kingmaker) and every time i get more girls then boys and everyone treats each other fairly by policing themselves and i never have to step in, i usually get 3-4 girls and a couple boys and yes its because they see the respect Paizo gives to women in their artwork and writing and enjoy and feel empowered by it.
i love Paizo's artwork, maybe its because i still have a few 2nd edition books and know how bad it used to be and how awesome pathfinder's is!
Okay, so, returning to my original point for this thread, let's look at Legacy of Fire:
...
Total: So, total of eight female, six male. Though some of those six are kinda marginal. Not as notable as Serpent's skull, but a bit of a trend developing...
That's a pretty good assessment in general, but you're missing at least three entries on the male side, several more depending how much you want to stretch:
Anwar Alim from the setpiece from The Impossible Eye. Kind of a stuck-up upper class type, but so's Almah.
Rayhan from Jackal's Price. On the one hand, yes, he's pretty old, but he's also about the nicest guy you're going to find, owns his own hot tub, and the party is stuck with him hanging around for half the AP. He's practically a GMPC really. More importantly though, he should still be around, at the point where wishes start being passed around like candy, so if the age thing is a sticking point, it's a solvable problem.
Vardishal. Intimate bond with one of the PCs built into the AP, over the whole duration, via the whole Moldspeaker bit, and it's rather weird for a party NOT to wish for him to have a body again by the end. You could argue he's not on the market and would just go back to Nefeshti, but then she's off the list.
Zayifid from House of the Beast, while borderline, shouldn't be totally dismissed. In his natural form he's plenty attractive, he's the fake ally of the PCs for the whole book, and frankly while his motives aren't really stated clearly, I really just plain do not understand why he's even cast as a villain to begin with. He should be in the same boat as Vardishal and Kardswann of ultimately being opposed to Jhavhul. I don't know if there was a miscommunication between the writers of each book about the role the Templars were supposed to play or something got cut for time, but you should really be able to clear things up and ally with him somehow I say.
Past that, you kind of opened Pandora's box when you put Undrella on the list. Because now we really have to stop and consider all the friendly but monstrous male options. Kurellak the gnoll bartender is good people. Especially if there's a gnoll in the party, which I seem to recall the player's guide tosses out as something to consider. Jank the goblin is potentially friendly too.
In House of the Beast, Blobog's a tricky case. On the one hand, he's totally a friendly likable fellow, and humanoid which is more than you can say for Undrella, and you know he's not going to turn down romantic interest. On the other hand, he worships freaking Lamashtu and looks pretty freaky. Grundmoch might be worth leaving on the list too, there's that whole Klingon appeal, maybe.
The real tend as I see it is that female NPCs one might try to hook up with, while not actually more numerous, tend to skew much younger, and they are, on the whole, easier. Not in the slutty sense, in the sense that you don't need to convince them not to attack you or break a curse for them, they're just kinda hanging out, all grateful to have been rescued, or joining up with the party as a willing ally with no strings attached. In particular, the overlap there- Young, conventionally attractive NPCs who are either clear allies of/are rescued by the party, do seem to skew female.
Even then it's not a shutout or anything. I think you can find at least one of each with every AP.
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Eh...I think you're reaching on most of those, especially in regards to attractiveness. I'm aiming for NPCs a majority of women would see as potential romantic interests here, and one of the complaints regarded the male characters being, on average, much less attractive than the female ones. So being conventionally attractive is definitely a factor. Details in the spoiler:
Haidar, from the set piece in the first book. He is a good looking friendly guy from a high class background, cursed by a magic item that'll do the same to a PC if they just kill him. Totally counts.
Anwar Alim from the setpiece from The Impossible Eye. Kind of a stuck-up upper class type, but so's Almah.
I'd be very leery of including Set Piece NPCs in these lists at all. Not everyone used them by any means, after all. Haidar is maybe an exception, given his set piece's explicit inclusion in the map...but I think I'm just going to not include those on policy, as optional content.
Rayhan from Jackal's Price. On the one hand, yes, he's pretty old, but he's also about the nicest guy you're going to find, owns his own hot tub, and the party is stuck with him hanging around for half the AP. He's practically a GMPC really. More importantly though, he should still be around, at the point where wishes start being passed around like candy, so if the age thing is a sticking point, it's a solvable problem.
Rayhan's a friendly guy, but 'love interest' is really stretching it by the 'attractiveness' standard, which I am using. I don't know if he's actually older than some of the other characters I've suggested, but he comes off as an 'old man' and thus not a viable love interest for most PCs, IMO.
Vardishal. Intimate bond with one of the PCs built into the AP, over the whole duration, via the whole Moldspeaker bit, and it's rather weird for a party NOT to wish for him to have a body again by the end. You could argue he's not on the market and would just go back to Nefeshti, but then she's off the list.
Vardishal isn't a person that you meet, though. He's a weird collection of remembrances that seem to come to the Moldspeaker when relevant. It's very possible for the PCs to never even think of him as a person per se. I know neither I nor my PCs ever thought of him that way. That makes his inclusion on a list of love interests...dicey. It's not impossible, but it's not an intended option either.
Zayifid from House of the Beast, while borderline, shouldn't be totally dismissed. In his natural form he's plenty attractive, he's the fake ally of the PCs for the whole book, and frankly while his motives aren't really stated clearly, I really just plain do not understand why he's even cast as a villain to begin with. He should be in the same boat as Vardishal and Kardswann of ultimately being opposed to Jhavhul. I don't know if there was a miscommunication between the writers of each book about the role the Templars were supposed to play or something got cut for time, but you should really be able to clear things up and ally with him somehow I say.
Uh...Zayifid, like the Templar in the final book, has explicitly switched sides. He's trying to free Jhavuul to gain a high place in his new order. He's theoretically redeemable in the sense that almost anyone is, but as a free-willed malignant main villain, I'm not including him any more than I am Jhavuul.
Past that, you kind of opened Pandora's box when you put Undrella on the list. Because now we really have to stop and consider all the friendly but monstrous male options. Kurellak the gnoll bartender is good people. Especially if there's a gnoll in the party, which I seem to recall the player's guide tosses out as something to consider. Jank the goblin is potentially friendly too.
Undrella is attractive by human standards (at least according to her picture) and explicitly hits on the PCs, as well as siding with them and even giving them a quest. None of the above is true for the others you list. Even were they attractive, they're bit players the PCs might wel never even talk to, not significant NPCs. These lists would be loads longer if I included everyone who was a possibility who fit in that category.
In House of the Beast, Blobog's a tricky case. On the one hand, he's totally a friendly likable fellow, and humanoid which is more than you can say for Undrella, and you know he's not going to turn down romantic interest. On the other hand, he worships freaking Lamashtu and looks pretty freaky. Grundmoch might be worth leaving on the list too, there's that whole Klingon appeal, maybe.
Blobog is exceedingly unattractive, which would be why I left him out.
The real tend as I see it is that female NPCs one might try to hook up with, while not actually more numerous, tend to skew much younger, and they are, on the whole, easier. Not in the slutty sense, in the sense that you don't need to convince them not to attack you or break a curse for them, they're just kinda hanging out, all grateful to have been rescued, or joining up with the party as a willing ally with no strings attached. In particular, the overlap there- Young, conventionally attractive NPCs who are either clear allies of/are rescued by the party, do seem to skew female.
Here, I agree with you. The problem in Legacy of Fire is indeed the males being less accessible or likely than the females. Absolute numbers as a problem seem a bit more recent, at least so far. More posts on that later...
I think it really needs to be confined to conventionally attractive human & near human - half-orc or dwarf might count, **if presented as attractive**, but gnoll, no. Villains need to be excluded, unless explicitly presented as redeemable. Eg: Curse of the Crimson Throne - Seven Days to the Grave - no way am I including either
Edit: Just wanted to mention what female players find attractive - usually they're looking for co-equal* characters, not damsel in distress types. Rescuing a female NPC may make her more attractive to the male NPC rescuer, at least if she's not totally drippy - the Princess Bride does this trope well, as does Star Wars ep IV - but male characters who need rescuing can be a turn off, unless they elicit a mothering response and/or handle captivity with great wit & equanimity - Johhny Depp can pull off the latter kind of character, Leonardo diCaprio the former, but it's a challenge for most GMs. So creating a strong male NPC potential love interest can be challenging. Vencarlo Orisini is done well IMO, eg he's shown in action being highly competent, before needing rescue later.
*IRL a superior competence man may be more attractive ('hypergamy'), but in power-fantasy RPGs the player probably doesn't want her female PC to be overshadowed by her NPC boyfriend/husband. His having a few extra levels on her may be fine, but not in a way to overshadow her - eg a martial or multiclass NPC could be somewhat higher level than his PC Wizard or Druid girlfriend, but won't risk outshining her at least by the time she's 5th level or so.
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So, Wrath of the Righteous, a very recent Adventure Path, comes next. Bear in mind that I'm not generally including people already in relationships. This is particularly relevant here. It is also worth noting that I am not including every single adversary in this listing, despite the redemption-theme making it more likely than in most APs. I will make note of any that are especially focused on or sympathetic, though.
So, here we go:
Horgus Gwerm is also theoretically possible...but marginal on attractiveness and so actively unlikable I felt including him would be disingenuous.
So only one real option, male.
Nurah Dendiwar - Female, travels along with the PCs...traitor, but this is a redemption focused AP, and her possible conversion is gone into a fair bit.
Arles Jhastander - Male, maybe not quite attractive enough, but I rounded down there on Horgus based on personality, so I'll round up here given his sympathetic story
So, two female, one male...though the male is a little marginal. Even so, interesting.
Jesker Helton - Male, Cleric of Erastil, possessed when you meet him, but salvageable. Maybe not attractive enough...but I'll round up.
So, one of each, still even...though the female option is just orders of magnitude better and more obvious.
Queen Galfrey - Female, very good option, and explicitly touted as such at least onc.
Nocticula - Female, yes the Demon Lord. She tries to seduce the PCs and offers some sweet perks, as well as allying against their adversaries. She qualifies.
So three, all female.
Malaika - Male, dead Angel possibly resurrected by the PCs, very helpful and, well, angelic.
So, one each male and female.
None. Or no likely or viable ones anyway.
Total: Seven female, four male. Though it's really between two and six males depending on your standards...but the fact remains that a lot of them are notably less attractive than the female possibilities. So, this appears to be pretty close to Serpent's Skull and indicate this as an ongoing (if relatively recent) problem.
We'll look at Reign of Winter next to confirm that.
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I think it really needs to be confined to conventionally attractive human & near human - half-orc or dwarf might count, **if presented as attractive**, but gnoll, no. Villains need to be excluded, unless explicitly presented as redeemable.
I agree with all this...though not some of the details later.
But, seriously man, this thread is supposed to be spoiler free. Spoiler that whole discussion past this, not just two little bits. I'm not spoiled...but others might be. See also my post on CotCT specifically, which covered most of that.
As for Zellara:
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I don't think we should really bar unattractiveness when dealing with potential romances. Hell, I somehow got a girlfriend and I look like Luis Guzman :p
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This is a fantasy game. As long as the "likes girls" crowd is getting Samaritha, Aerys, Sasha, Ameiko, Sandara, and Arueshelae, the "likes guys" crowd should get options just as attractive, not the old, fat, bald guy who pees himself in terror when combat starts.
EDIT: And what's up with the 'S' and 'A' names, now that I list them?
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I don't think we should really bar unattractiveness when dealing with potential romances. Hell, I somehow got a girlfriend and I look like Luis Guzman :p
And I'd never dream of restricting a player from pursuing less-attractive romantic options...but if most of the women are notably more attractive than most of the men, that's clearly an issue, and one that's relevant to many people in regards to romance options.
Or, alternately, what Joana said.
Wrath of the Righteous might be an outlier on the male attractiveness scale just because that they made an effort to show that "Good isn't always beautiful" for the AP. Pointing out the disparity is fine and welcome, but saying "This person is ugly, therefore probably not a romantic interest." is a bit much. Which is what I'm noticing in your post.
With a non-visual game like Pathfinder, looks don't play as much as how that NPC interacts with the party. You'll find more often than not that the players bond with an NPC despite the looks because they have to focus on the interaction with the NPC without an actual visualization.
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Wrath of the Righteous might be an outlier on the male attractiveness scale just because that they made an effort to show that "Good isn't always beautiful" for the AP. Pointing out the disparity isn't bad, but saying "This person is ugly, therefore probably not a romantic interest." is a bit much. Which is what I'm noticing in your posts.
Again, fantasy game and intended love interest. I'm not saying that you can't fall in love with an unattractive person. You certainly can. I'm saying that, generally speaking, when you intend, in fiction, to make a character a romantic option, you generally make them attractive.
Again, Joana and others are explicitly complaining about 'no attractive men' as 'no potential love interests' so there's some serious overlap between the two problems.
And I'll note that I saw very few unattractive women in WotR.
Wrath of the Righteous might be an outlier on the male attractiveness scale just because that they made an effort to show that "Good isn't always beautiful" for the AP. Pointing out the disparity isn't bad, but saying "This person is ugly, therefore probably not a romantic interest." is a bit much. Which is what I'm noticing in your posts.Again, fantasy game and intended love interest. I'm not saying that you can't fall in love with an unattractive person. You certainly can. I'm saying that, generally speaking, when you intend, in fiction, to make a character a romantic option, you generally make them attractive.
Again, Joana and others are explicitly complaining about 'no attractive men' as 'no potential love interests' so there's some serious overlap between the two problems.
And I'll note that I saw very few unattractive women in WotR.
I'm not saying that pointing out the disparity is wrong. Rather, I encourage and agree with Joana that there is most definitely a disparity between the attractiveness, genders, and availability for romantic options in AP. There should be a better mix for both sides and it is definitely something Paizo should be made aware of from the fanbase. However, the topic is about male love interests, not attractive love interests. I don't think that we should bar NPCs from our "love interest" lists simply because they may not be attractive enough, for either gender. Rather, I'm glad that Paizo doesn't feel the need to always be beholden to "It's a fantasy game, so make all the love interests hot and all the villains ugly" trope. Now, they just need to fix and adjust things against the current disparity that is being pointed out.
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While you may not be trying to say that you can't fall in love with an unattractive person, reading the last post, you kept pointing that some of the male NPCs may not be attractive enough to be considered a romantic interest. "Maybe not quite attractive enough" was listed for both Arles and Jesker, which I felt was not a good reason to not include them (which you did include them).
It wasn't. But it could've been if they were unattractive enough, simply because, well, I'm not thinking of a single female potential love interest that isn't fairly conventionally attractive. And that's what some women are complaining about.
In addition, my opinion on their attractiveness differs from yours since I didn't find either unattractive (though Jesker's picture is unflattering since, you know, possession). In the online game I'm running for WotR, two of my players went nuts over the picture of Arles. Chicks dig scars, what can I say ;)
Like I mentioned, I'm a straight guy...I'm perfectly willing to believe that my standards of male attractiveness are poor measures for this kind of thing. Which is why I tried to err on the side of inclusion. Good information, though, and I'll bear it in mind.
I'm not saying that pointing out the disparity is wrong. Rather, I encourage and agree with Joana that there is most definitely a disparity between the attractiveness, genders, and availability for romantic options in AP. There should be a better mix for both sides and it is definitely something Paizo should be made aware of from the fanbase.
I agree entirely.
However, the topic is about male love interests, not attractive love interests. I don't think that we should bar NPCs from our "love interest" lists simply because they may not be attractive enough, for either gender. Rather, I'm glad that Paizo doesn't feel the need to always be beholden to "It's a fantasy game, so make all the love interests hot and all the villains ugly" trope. Now, they just need to fix and adjust things against the current disparity that is being pointed out.
I actually agree to a great extent...but very few groups are actually going to treat, say, a Gnoll, Goblin, or Ogrekin as a viable romantic prospect purely based on them being less than physically appealing to most players. I would be perfectly happy if one of my PCs did begin such a relationship...but it's not a common enough prospect to count Gnolls or Ogrekin in my list of romantic prospects...and that's not because they're Evil, it's because they are not conventionally attractive.
The same is true of people who fit the 'old man' stereotypes in appearance, or who are simply notably unattractive. That's unfortunate, and I'd like to continue to see the unattractive presented compellingly and sympathetically so that they can be romantic possibilities for PCs...but stating that someone presented as entirely unappealing physically is intended as a romantic option is somewhat inaccurate.
Reading this over, I've got another question as well: If your PC is not conventionally attractive, are you still interested in romance, and if so, what are you looking for?
My first answer: many times, I'm not. However, I've got a gnome jester who is regularly flirtatious. I play a half-orc rogue who I'd actually call conventionally attractive (Pass For Human), so I won't count him. My tiefling is angsty and would push anyone away who tries, but that could set the stage for a tragic romance.
So I'm not sure what someone off the human/elf/halfling axis would be looking for.
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I've personally mostly sworn off romances at the table. Between awkward weirdness and the occasional GM making a pass at me in the guise of an npc problem, I'd rather leave that bit out, personally. I get why people want it, I'm just not one of those people.
That said, I've been tempted at least once. My wife was running a homebrew game before Paizo had gotten started really. There was a half-orc in the game that was travelling with our caraven who was our bouncer, but was actually sweet and very intelligent. Mostly he was around for being a scary half orc but my character kinda liked him. If we had continued with that campaign, something might have happened... maybe.
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Reading this over, I've got another question as well: If your PC is not conventionally attractive, are you still interested in romance, and if so, what are you looking for?
Speaking for myself, I sure am. And I'm usually looking for an interesting and attractive romance option the same as I am for more attractive characters. I like playing charming, fairly nice, characters, so even the less attractive tend to have pretty good odds of that sort of thing.
My first answer: many times, I'm not. However, I've got a gnome jester who is regularly flirtatious. I play a half-orc rogue who I'd actually call conventionally attractive (Pass For Human), so I won't count him. My tiefling is angsty and would push anyone away who tries, but that could set the stage for a tragic romance.
For the record, this is not the standard I've been using for attractive (or even 'conventionally attractive') in this thread thus far.
I'd actually argue that all the races you list are very capable of being quite attractive, and could give examples if I cared to flip through books. Heck, I can even think of an attractive mongrelfolk illustration. Race can have something to do with those standards (I haven't seen a conventionally attractive Goblin or Gnoll illustrated yet), but basically all of the standard PC options are potentially quite good looking.
So I'm not sure what someone off the human/elf/halfling axis would be looking for.
Well, that's gonna vary a lot by the individual, but in general gnomes tend to be looking for novelty, tieflings and aasimar are almost certainly gonna hew pretty closely to human standard desires given their heritage and upbrining, dwarves are likely interested in other dwarves...and so on and so forth.
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I've personally mostly sworn off romances at the table. Between awkward weirdness and the occasional GM making a pass at me in the guise of an npc problem, I'd rather leave that bit out, personally.
As GM I generally prefer the PC to make the first move. At most I'll say
"(NPC) seems interested in you" - I definitely tend to avoid any stalkerish behaviour by the NPC, unless they're actually a villain and it's part of the plot. A sympathetic NPC won't court a PC unless the player/PC has signalled interest first. Probably most players never do, I think my 4e Loudwater game is unusual for my tabletop campaigns with most of the PCs having had romantic entanglements, marriage etc, and it helps a lot that the campaign has been running for over three years and we all trust one another. Even there, of the six PCs (one just left), only five have romantic partners - the last is worshipped as a goddess by the Azers though, so she has some compensation. :)
Reading this over, I've got another question as well: If your PC is not conventionally attractive, are you still interested in romance, and if so, what are you looking for?
I guess - most of my PCs aren't hideous, though. I had a drunken dwarf barbarian battlerager for one game, I guess I'd not expect him to have much of a love life until he'd regained his orc-held clanhold, when he'd likely have looked to marry a well-bearded dwarf lady. I had one PC Larsenio Roguespierre a slightly skeevy human Thief, he was more interested in expanding his harem (one of the benefits of working for the Overlord of Punjar) than in conventional romance, though I suppose that could have changed. Most of my other PCs would certainly have been open to romance though; but they were generally all reasonably good-looking humans anyway.
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First off, I really appreciate having NPCs called out as potential romances. It's not something I think about normally, so being reminded here and there adds a lot to my game.
It's doubly nice to have characters I wouldn't normally be attracted to called out. Just because I'm not generally attracted to old men doesn't mean I don't have a player that thinks they're hot, so having a reminder in there for me will make her play experience better.
The same principle applies to non-humanoid romantic options. I won't generally think to add that in there, so calling it out will make that NPC's characterization deeper, even if none of my players pursue that lead.
Anyway, I'm glad you're looking into this. Keep up the great work!
Cheers!
Landon
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...actually, now that you mention it, I distinctly remember a game I ran in which I drove the PCs to distraction with a trio of masked gnome dancers. The players were practically fumbling over their words when faced with them.
So, yes, unconventional racial choices will work as well, I've done it successfully.
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This is a fantasy game. As long as the "likes girls" crowd is getting Samaritha, Aerys, Sasha, Ameiko, Sandara, and Arueshelae, the "likes guys" crowd should get options just as attractive, not the old, fat, bald guy who pees himself in terror when combat starts.
EDIT: And what's up with the 'S' and 'A' names, now that I list them?
Hey, you missed me!
Edit: Just wanted to mention what female players find attractive - usually they're looking for co-equal* characters, not damsel in distress types. Rescuing a female NPC may make her more attractive to the male NPC rescuer, at least if she's not totally drippy - the Princess Bride does this trope well, as does Star Wars ep IV - but male characters who need rescuing can be a turn off, unless they elicit a mothering response and/or handle captivity with great wit & equanimity - Johhny Depp can pull off the latter kind of character, Leonardo diCaprio the former, but it's a challenge for most GMs. So creating a strong male NPC potential love interest can be challenging. Vencarlo Orisini is done well IMO, eg he's shown in action being highly competent, before needing rescue later.
*IRL a superior competence man may be more attractive ('hypergamy'), but in power-fantasy RPGs the player probably doesn't want her female PC to be overshadowed by her NPC boyfriend/husband. His having a few extra levels on her may be fine, but not in a way to overshadow her - eg a martial or multiclass NPC could be somewhat higher level than his PC Wizard or Druid girlfriend, but won't risk outshining her at least by the time she's 5th level or so.
This is getting into tricky territory. Setting aside the issue of whether this might be a case of overgeneralization, you're introducing a nasty problem with this. The only NPCs I can think of that specifically exist as potential romance options are the ones from Jade Regent. Most of these are just NPCs who play a notable role in an AP that romance-minded PCs may happen to pick up on. Either people you rescue, or allies who actually actively help you out.
In a given AP, you are pretty much always going to be rescuing a lot more people than you will be making viable allies, especially if we're looking at ones who are on par with the PCs... and if you want them to stay on par for the duration, that's not going to happen at all. It's a basic principle of APs that the PCs are the heroes. The only ones who can save whatever city/region/nation/world/organization from certain doom and all. People in need of saving (or, otherwise are helpless to solve their own problems and inclined to show gratitude) are great quest hooks. Viable peers steal the spotlight from the party, and if you throw a bunch in, eventually the game isn't really about the party any more, it's about some big gang of people of which the party are just a small part.
Even if you did manage to get a viable peer for each rescuable "damsel" type, splitting them evenly gender wise wouldn't work by your logic. You've got, say, 3 strong independent ladies for people into those, 3 damsels in distress, and then only 3 "viable" male options in the form of tough fellow adventuring dudes, since we're ignoring our 3 "helpless beta male" types. So effectively, that's a 2:1 ratio. Now, if all the helpful peers were men, and all the people needing saving were women, you'd have your ratio in place, but... you also have a Very Serious Problem from a feminist perspective with regards to these NPCs.
As for Zellara:
Spoiler:She's 'talking with the PCs and they don't even realize she's dead until they find the body' dead. That kind of dead hardly exempts her from being a love interest possibility. Hell, once they get Resurrection, she might not even be that.
Actually...
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I just want to say that in Kingmaker I had to create viable male romantic interests. We had a queen and no one really suited to court her. She ended up marrying her captain of the royal guard. He was introduced when she was entertaining someone posing as a suitor but in reality was a spy. He simply walked in, uttered an apology and threw the guy out the fourth story balcony.
The other female PC had to create her own, a nice boy from the home country that she just suddenly announced she was married to.
There was a possible interest in Varn, but it wouldn't have lasted because of spoilers.
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Spoiler:"Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can't be resurrected." Her body'd be fair game for revival if she was destroyed but... that's an awkward proposal. Pretty sure you'd need a wish here. Either way though, by the time you're high enough level to cast it, the AP's pretty much over.
Also, I agree that rescued males are perfectly valid romantic possibilities. Especially if they demonstrate competence aside from needing said rescue. Exactly like rescued females, actually, IMO.
Reign of winter breakdown sometime in the next day or three, followed by Second Darkness, and then I'm done actually doing these breakdowns since I'm not gonna read APs and cut myself off from ever playing them just for this. Other people wanting to do detailed, spoilered, breakdowns would be welcome, of course.
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This is a fantasy game. As long as the "likes girls" crowd is getting Samaritha, Aerys, Sasha, Ameiko, Sandara, and Arueshelae, the "likes guys" crowd should get options just as attractive, not the old, fat, bald guy who pees himself in terror when combat starts.
EDIT: And what's up with the 'S' and 'A' names, now that I list them?
Hey, you missed me!
This is getting into tricky territory. Setting aside the issue of whether this might be a case of overgeneralization...Edit: Just wanted to mention what female players find attractive - usually they're looking for co-equal* characters, not damsel in distress types. Rescuing a female NPC may make her more attractive to the male NPC rescuer, at least if she's not totally drippy - the Princess Bride does this trope well, as does Star Wars ep IV - but male characters who need rescuing can be a turn off, unless they elicit a mothering response and/or handle captivity with great wit & equanimity - Johhny Depp can pull off the latter kind of character, Leonardo diCaprio the former, but it's a challenge for most GMs. So creating a strong male NPC potential love interest can be challenging. Vencarlo Orisini is done well IMO, eg he's shown in action being highly competent, before needing rescue later.
*IRL a superior competence man may be more attractive ('hypergamy'), but in power-fantasy RPGs the player probably doesn't want her female PC to be overshadowed by her NPC boyfriend/husband. His having a few extra levels on her may be fine, but not in a way to overshadow her - eg a martial or multiclass NPC could be somewhat higher level than his PC Wizard or Druid girlfriend, but won't risk outshining her at least by the time she's 5th level or so.
I didn't mean it as a universal rule. In fact I can think of one big exception from my own experience; when I ran a short OGL Conan campaign, the two female players both played Conanesque female barbarian types (they might have looked like Red Sonja, but their 'tude was way more Conanesque happy warriors). Both of their PCs soon acquired handsome youths to follow them around adoringly and be their sidekicks, pretty much the traditional female NPC role for swords & sorcery male PCs/protagonists; the players absolutely loved this! :D The NPCs youths were handsome, brave, not incompetent, but not nearly as competent as the PCs, and they did often need rescuing etc.
So yeah, there is a space for puppy-dog male NPC love interests, as much as Sean Connery/Vencarlo Orisini type veterans, and mature adult Han Solo types, etc too.
It's a basic principle of APs that the PCs are the heroes. The only ones who can save whatever city/region/nation/world/organization from certain doom and all.
I don't think it's a good general principle that the PCs are the only competent characters, or that competent NPC allies should be expected accompany the PCs rather than doing their own thing. And most APs are more 'save the city/country' than 'save the world'. The Leadership cohort rules do allow PCs to be accompanied by competent subordinates, but most APs actually have friendly NPCs who are actually more competent than the PCs at least to start with - eg in Curse of the Crimson Throne Marshall Cressida Croft is 10th level when the PCs are 1st, but she can't go adventuring with them, she has a lot of other responsibilities.
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Okay! Reign of Winter it is. Let's see what we've got here.
Lady Argentea Mallasene - Female, rescued by the PCs, seems a reasonable possibility, though as they'll likely be leaving her behind, somewhat unintentionally, perhaps not a long-term one
Rohkar Cindren - Male. He is theoretically possible...but he's a Cleric of Norgorber, and a pretty unrepentant one who opposes the PCs pretty thoroughly. Still, I suppose I should count him, since he'll surrender and might be converted, in theory
Nadya Petska - Female, ally to the PCs and excellent romance possibility
So, three female, one male. And the male possibility is very dubious (a couple of the female ones are slightly dubious, too...but not nearly to the same degree).
Ringeirr Malenkov - Male, ally of the PCs, saved by them. Solid choice.
Greta - Female, winter wolf, asks a PC out...so definitely on the list
Solveig Ayrdahl - Female, sends you to rescue her girlfriend, so really only an option if you fail at that...
So, three female, one male again, but two of the females are highly situational, so I think I'm only gonna count the two of them for one. Making it two females and one male.
Marislova - Female, this one's tricky...but there's definitely potential here
Ratibor the Bold - Male, rescuable, not a bad guy...very possible
Two female, one male.
Cesseer of Ning - Female, Kind of, well, furry...like most NPCs in this chapter. I'm gonna go with them being possible love interests anyway, though, and her story definitely favors that as a possibility...
Bescaylie - Female, can easily wind up an ally
Commandr Paharamol - Male, again, easy to have as an ally
Three female, one male.
Anastasia - Female, well, why not? As plausible as many of these options...
Viktor Miloslav might theoretically be an option...but not a very good one and I rounded up earlier on Rohkar, so we'll round down here
So, one male, one female. There's the vague posibility of another male, but it's very dubious, and having let one dubious option through already, I'll round down this time.
Vigliv - Female, because that seems a reasonable option if you have the chutzpah
To options, both female.
Total: Thirteen female, five male. Yeah...that's possibly the worst AP yet in this particular area. And the male options are also generally way less obvious than some of the female ones (with several female options being really blatant, IMO).
This thread kind of reminds me of the episode of Archer from season 1
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@Matt Goodall: Wow, that spoiler is incredibly disheartening to read. It means that Paizo has purposefully changed a male NPC into a sexy enslaved female in need of rescue, in at least this one instance.
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@Matt Goodall: Wow, that spoiler is incredibly disheartening to read. It means that Paizo has purposefully changed a male NPC into a sexy enslaved female in need of rescue, in at least this one instance.
Let's be fair, I suspect the situation remained the same, and they also changed a powerful male leader into a female one in Legacy of Fire.
The issue is the gender swap, not the status of the NPCs in question.
Still, good info to have. Thanks Matt!
I wonder if it was an art issue like it was in LoF...
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I firmly believe there aren't enough sexy enslaved male NPCs eager to show their gratitude to their rescuers in Paizo products. ;)
Avoiding the damsel-in-distress trope is usually something Paizo does very well, so it's bemusing to me that they intentionally put a hot chick in the helpless role in this instance.
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I would say that I don't have an issue with the "X in distress" trope. Rather, the issue is that it is overwhelmingly a damsel that is in distress. I don't believe in getting rid of the trope, since it is a useful narrative mechanism in introducing NPCs. I'd rather see it not just confined to damsels, which Paizo does a good job of.
I'd guess that it had a lot more to do with the piece of art than anything else.
Also, there are certain monsters: hags, dryads, nereids, etc that almost have to be female, I don't see the same for male monsters, with the exception of satyrs.
I'm as guilty as anyone else in terms of subconsciously going: helpful or helpless NPC better make it female, generic NPC better make it male. I try to consciously go back and flip things around to equalize, and to see if it works better.
Paizo's writers' guidelines specifically mention gender equality (as well as talking about racial and sexuality issues.)