Ways GMs can annoy their players


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Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

To complete the quadrilateral symmetry, what are some things that annoy you as a player (or players you've had) that the GM does?

• Wonky idea of how illusions work; I've encountered both "As soon as they see it, that's 'interacting', so they get a save" and a GM waiting for me to announce "I disbelieve" as a character action. Huh?

• The running of the scenario is clearly their first time reading it (unless weird circumstances apply; life happens).

• The GM is pretty sure that their off-the-cuff interpretation of a class ability (or whatever) that they just saw for the first time right now, is more likely to be right than the conclusion the player came to after spending time away from the table studying relevant rules and FAQs. It's different if you're aware of a rule that the player missed, but I'm talking about when the best you've got is "that seems off" or whatever, and you decide to go with your first hunch instead of the fruits of the player's study/research. Trust goes both ways, folks. This goes double for any GM who's ever said "Players need to know how their PCs work, because I can't be expected to know everything!"


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Inconsistent application of the rules, especially of the illusions thing above: His illusions are believed until specifically disbelieved, while the PCs' illusions are disbelieved on sight.


Arbitrarily diverting as many scenes as possible towards combat. The mentality of "if it has a statblock, it must be fought," as if they all had red names and attack on sight, is a pet peeve of mine.

-Matt

Silver Crusade

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GM: You enter a room and see a medium humanoid.

Player: Um...what exactly do we see? What does all this look li-

GM: You're in a 20x20 room and see a medium humanoid.

Another player: ....can I do a Knowledge(nature) check to tell what...

GM: It moves to attack. Roll initiative.

true story

Silver Crusade

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Player: I finish off the goblin noncombatants.

Another player: Ooh, me too.

Me: Wtf?

GM: What are you doing?

Me: I put myself between the party and the children and try to convince them to not do this.

GM: Okay, your alignment shifts one towards evil.

Me: Wat

GM: You're siding with evil against good. Pay attention.

true story

Silver Crusade

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A GM dictating how a PC feels, what they think, or what they do regardless of how the player envisioned their character. I've seen this ranging all the way from irritating to outright horrifyingly awful.

Speaking of the latter, GMs that spring obvious triggery material on players without any kind of warning whatsoever.

Silver Crusade

Mikaze wrote:

Player: I finish off the goblin noncombatants.

Another player: Ooh, me too.

Me: Wtf?

GM: What are you doing?

Me: I put myself between the party and the children and try to convince them to not do this.

GM: Okay, your alignment shifts one towards evil.

Me: Wat

GM: You're siding with evil against good. Pay attention.

true story

Then let me be Evil!

*rolls up Antipaladin*


DMs assisting an 11th level party with epic-level PC mary sue ancient homebrew vampires. 3.x campaign.


GMs who fudge dice, I cannot trust someone I know will fudge. The exception to this is an old DM of mine who allowed us a fudge bank, essentially both players and DM were allowed 3 fudges per campaign - 3 for the whole party not individually - this meant that getting the DM to "eat fudge" was a real achievement and the BBEG hit with a save or suck could last more than a round. I am aware many people feel differently about this.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Brings beer!

Silver Crusade

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Dragnmoon wrote:
Brings beer!

And doesn't share.

Grand Lodge

Greetings All,

Happy to be reading this post...being complety new to this game and still trying to understad the dynamics..it gives me a glimpse of WTF yet to come!

Thanks :) Oh, yeah..what a very cool pllace to be! I am looking foward to my first Campain this comming Tues. I'm still creating my character and having a pretty okay go of it.

"Cheers To Fellowship and Betrayal"


One of the easiest ways I've seen to keep this honest and to compromise with the GM is to make the PC's roll three times prior to the session starting. The GM can use these numbers as there rolls for the save without them making a roll and knowing something is amiss. Now you would have to true the GM to be appropriate with the save of the monsters vs. your spells and when to apply your save. It should be as soon as you see the illusion.

On a separate note, I personally don't like that my GM is extremely stingey with gold. At higher levels magic items and gold should occur more often to keep the game progression moving. Why be lvl 10 with ordinary items. The way I see it, levels 1-5 get +1, 6-10 get +2 and so on.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Halvdan62 wrote:
On a separate note, I personally don't like that my GM is extremely stingey with gold. At higher levels magic items and gold should occur more often to keep the game progression moving. Why be lvl 10 with ordinary items. The way I see it, levels 1-5 get +1, 6-10 get +2 and so on.

*psst* You're in the Pathfinder Society section.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah not cool bringing Beer to the game (or alcohol in general). Drunky/Tipsy gamers/gaming is not cool.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Matthew Pittard wrote:
Yeah not cool bringing Beer to the game (or alcohol in general). Drunky/Tipsy gamers/gaming is not cool.

A Public Con game with people you don't know, I agree. But an After Ours game at a Con with your friends those can be fun.


Dragnmoon wrote:
Matthew Pittard wrote:
Yeah not cool bringing Beer to the game (or alcohol in general). Drunky/Tipsy gamers/gaming is not cool.
A Public Con game with people you don't know, I agree. But an After Ours game at a Con with your friends those can be fun.

I did Hall of Drunken Heroes with the Merrymead boon and a selection of fine libations, and it was a lot of fun. Definitely not the sort of thing for a public venue, no, but it can be fun for an occasional night with friends.


zefig wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Matthew Pittard wrote:
Yeah not cool bringing Beer to the game (or alcohol in general). Drunky/Tipsy gamers/gaming is not cool.
A Public Con game with people you don't know, I agree. But an After Ours game at a Con with your friends those can be fun.
I did Hall of Drunken Heroes with the Merrymead boon and a selection of fine libations, and it was a lot of fun. Definitely not the sort of thing for a public venue, no, but it can be fun for an occasional night with friends.

Well, it was fun until..

Hall of Drunken Heroes:
We actually got deeper into the hall and there were frackin demons everywhere. Then it got real. Real fast.

Liberty's Edge

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I can only speak from my experience, but Ive had quite a few problem games in the past with drunk gm's and drunk players or a combination of the two. Things start out okay, but ive had people falling asleep at the table, people not focusing, people having alcohol fueled rules arguments.

As I dont drink myself normally perhaps I have a lesser tolerance to people equating alcohol with fun

But everyone has their own way of gaming. Let it continue!

Shadow Lodge

I've got a few gripes with GMs, but what really gets under my skin is when GMs take away the players' agency.

This doesn't usually apply to Society, since the GMs are forced to run the module as written, but it applies to module writers.

What I mean by that is, ideally every player should be able to play their character.
That doesn't mean every character needs to be useful, if they didn't bring cold iron and the creature has DR a billion/cold iron? Sucks to be that player, guess they won't be damaging the monster, however, they're still fully in control of their character. There are things they could theoretically be doing.

My beef is with confusion, dominate person, deep slumber, color spray, certain fear effects, etc. Things which take control of a character away from their player, or just straight up prevent them from acting.

Pathfinder is a game, and games are only fun if you're allowed to play.

Also, don't ignore the tactics. The final fight in ToEE is hard enough at 1-2, you don't need to pull out all the stops, and ignore the villain's exit strategy. Doing that makes you a dick.


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Give every enemy a surprise round, no matter whether the scenario says to or not. Every enemy uses stealth at all times. Listening at a door always fails to perceive anything no matter what you roll.


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Player:I listen at the door

DM: Well what are you listening for?

Player: ...sounds?

Grand Lodge

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The worst thing I've seen happen from the player perspective is having the GM come to the table with the mentality "If I don't kill a player during this scenario, I will feel like I've failed as a GM", and announce that to the players. Later, there was a brief moment with the BBEG where it was very literally the PCs vs the GM. Also, the GM became very agitated when he didn't kill anyone, which just made things worse.

Grand Lodge

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One thing that annoys me is DMs who make announcements about their DMing style when you sit down at the table. Such announcements invariably end up being some warning to the players about how the DM strictly adheres to something. In theory, the DM is being polite by making this announcement. In practice he is making all the players paranoid about their behavior and I do not find paranoia conducive to fun. Strictly adhering to something in a home game where everyone is on the same page is fine. But in organized play, where there is a huge variety of play styles, strictly adhering to anything to the point you feel it is necessary to make an announcement is bound to drive players away, or at the very least, make them feel uncomfortable.


Du Nord wrote:
The worst thing I've seen happen from the player perspective is having the GM come to the table with the mentality "If I don't kill a player during this scenario, I will feel like I've failed as a GM", and announce that to the players. Later, there was a brief moment with the BBEG where it was very literally the PCs vs the GM. Also, the GM became very agitated when he didn't kill anyone, which just made things worse.

I'm pretty sure the first thing I would do is get up and look for another table, and probably let the event coordinator know. Dangerous scenarios are fine, playing Hard Mode is fine, saying you're trying to kill PC's because you're not happy isn't fine.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Making it clear which PCs you personally disapprove of. Maybe you don't like that one of the PCs can take out an enemy in a single round (whether via SoS, pouncing, a keen falcata, whatever), and maybe one or more of the players feels the same way. Maybe nobody likes it and you need to say something to that player about it. But whatever the case, things like rolling your eyes or replacing roleplay opportunities with things like "Fine, whatever, you win" does not help anyone.

Silver Crusade

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trollbill wrote:
One thing that annoys me is DMs who make announcements about their DMing style when you sit down at the table. Such announcements invariably end up being some warning to the players about how the DM strictly adheres to something. In theory, the DM is being polite by making this announcement. In practice he is making all the players paranoid about their behavior and I do not find paranoia conducive to fun. Strictly adhering to something in a home game where everyone is on the same page is fine. But in organized play, where there is a huge variety of play styles, strictly adhering to anything to the point you feel it is necessary to make an announcement is bound to drive players away, or at the very least, make them feel uncomfortable.

I find this very interesting. I'm one of those GMs who announces stuff before hand. I honestly can't see where anything I say would cause paranoia, but obviously I'm biased.

Could you please give some concrete examples of "bad" things GMs say?

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Pout when the PCs defeat their opponents earlier than was expected.

Celebrate when you kill a PC.


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pH unbalanced wrote:
Pout when the PCs defeat their opponents earlier than was expected.

This is one of the first things I tell my student GMs in GM 101: "Don't take it personally when the PCs kill the boss before he ever had a chance to act, even if you spent an hour last night prepping his feats, spells, etc. Sometimes that's just how it goes. You've all been on the other side of the screen, too, so congratulate the players and move on with the story."


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Disk Elemental wrote:

I've got a few gripes with GMs, but what really gets under my skin is when GMs take away the players' agency.

This doesn't usually apply to Society, since the GMs are forced to run the module as written, but it applies to module writers.

What I mean by that is, ideally every player should be able to play their character.
That doesn't mean every character needs to be useful, if they didn't bring cold iron and the creature has DR a billion/cold iron? Sucks to be that player, guess they won't be damaging the monster, however, they're still fully in control of their character. There are things they could theoretically be doing.

My beef is with confusion, dominate person, deep slumber, color spray, certain fear effects, etc. Things which take control of a character away from their player, or just straight up prevent them from acting.

Pathfinder is a game, and games are only fun if you're allowed to play.

Also, don't ignore the tactics. The final fight in ToEE is hard enough at 1-2, you don't need to pull out all the stops, and ignore the villain's exit strategy. Doing that makes you a dick.

Well, yes..all those suck to be on the receiving end of, but it's unreasonable to expect a creature not to use them if it can. You would, if your character had such spells... The thing is,{1} don't take it personally, {2} give the PC every opportunity to make another save, and {3} roll with it. Our group's monk was walked off a cliff by a flock of harpies last session. Her player wasn't happy [BTW, monk survived] but she went with it...because that is what the harpies would have done. Not attack a superior force physically, not run away; they would sing and try to kill us that way. If the sorceror hadn't thrown up a wall of force, 3 other PCs would have taken the fall as well...But the monk had the ability to jump the wall, so the GM had her roll INT to see if she thought of trying while mesmerized. Nat 20 meant she did. The point is, many things take away the player's control...if you don't like it, optimize your saves - but don't complain because the monsters don't play fair.

Grand Lodge

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pauljathome wrote:
trollbill wrote:
One thing that annoys me is DMs who make announcements about their DMing style when you sit down at the table. Such announcements invariably end up being some warning to the players about how the DM strictly adheres to something. In theory, the DM is being polite by making this announcement. In practice he is making all the players paranoid about their behavior and I do not find paranoia conducive to fun. Strictly adhering to something in a home game where everyone is on the same page is fine. But in organized play, where there is a huge variety of play styles, strictly adhering to anything to the point you feel it is necessary to make an announcement is bound to drive players away, or at the very least, make them feel uncomfortable.

I find this very interesting. I'm one of those GMs who announces stuff before hand. I honestly can't see where anything I say would cause paranoia, but obviously I'm biased.

Could you please give some concrete examples of "bad" things GMs say?

I started to type up some examples, but realized this would invariably simply lead to people picking the examples apart and missing the overall point.

The point is that the problem is in the announcement made up front in the first place. People don't usually make these announcements unless it is as a warning that they will be on the lookout for players who would violate some stricture of behavior stated in the announcement. This creates a multitude of problems:

1) It demonstrates to players that you do not trust them to behave in what you consider to be a reasonable manner.
2) It immediately puts players on edge as they now become paranoid about unintentionally violating the warning.
3) It tells the players you are sufficiently strict about the behavior that you will not accommodate styles of play that don't fit within that stricture, even if that is the style the player prefers to play in.
4) It tells the players you expect them to adapt to you and that you are unwilling to adapt to them.

All of this can create a negative attitude that puts a damper on everyone's fun and turns the game from, "I'm playing to have fun," to, "I'm playing to avoid the DM's ire."

Again, in home games, especially ones with copious house rules, these warnings may be necessary. But when you have the same GM all of the time you have time to adapt to that GM's personal play style and get comfortable with their personal strictures. In an organized play environment, you may never play with that DM again, so you are likely to never get comfortable with their personal strictures. Which means that such announcements usually come with the unspoken warning that this is going to be an uncomfortable play session.


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Jiggy wrote:
Making it clear which PCs you personally disapprove of. Maybe you don't like that one of the PCs can take out an enemy in a single round (whether via SoS, pouncing, a keen falcata, whatever), and maybe one or more of the players feels the same way. Maybe nobody likes it and you need to say something to that player about it. But whatever the case, things like rolling your eyes or replacing roleplay opportunities with things like "Fine, whatever, you win" does not help anyone.

This is so true. Especially the last sentence.

I've had several GMs do this at a table, and it's disappointing, regardless whether it's directed at me or not. If you have a problem with a player, either pull them aside, or deal with it, but don't go showcasing around that the game that people took time of their day to play is pointless.

The Exchange

Rysky wrote:
Dragnmoon wrote:
Brings beer!
And doesn't share.

or shares - and as you take the first drink mentions that it's been setting in the back window of his car for 3 days... in the sun... in july...

The Exchange

"...not at MY table!..."

Grand Lodge

nosig wrote:
"...not at MY table!..."

I think this one is fine just about all the time (obviously there are exceptions). There are lots of vague rules in this game, and sometimes the GM has to make the call on the fly. So I really dont see what the problem with this would be.

Well, unless you are talking about the way it is being said, and not the words themselves. :/


Seth Gipson wrote:
nosig wrote:
"...not at MY table!..."

I think this one is fine just about all the time (obviously there are exceptions). There are lots of vague rules in this game, and sometimes the GM has to make the call on the fly. So I really dont see what the problem with this would be.

Well, unless you are talking about the way it is being said, and not the words themselves. :/

I think he means the cases where the rules specifically say something and the GM doesn't like it, so it doesn't work that way at their table. :p

Grand Lodge

Andrew Roberts wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:
nosig wrote:
"...not at MY table!..."

I think this one is fine just about all the time (obviously there are exceptions). There are lots of vague rules in this game, and sometimes the GM has to make the call on the fly. So I really dont see what the problem with this would be.

Well, unless you are talking about the way it is being said, and not the words themselves. :/

I think he means the cases where the rules specifically say something and the GM doesn't like it, so it doesn't work that way at their table. :p

That definitely qualifies as an exception, then. :P

The Exchange

Andrew Roberts wrote:
Seth Gipson wrote:
nosig wrote:
"...not at MY table!..."

I think this one is fine just about all the time (obviously there are exceptions). There are lots of vague rules in this game, and sometimes the GM has to make the call on the fly. So I really dont see what the problem with this would be.

Well, unless you are talking about the way it is being said, and not the words themselves. :/

I think he means the cases where the rules specifically say something and the GM doesn't like it, so it doesn't work that way at their table. :p

this.

waiting to after the game and pointing out the rule - and having the judge say, "I don't care what the rules say, it doesn't work like that at my table."


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trollbill wrote:
The point is that the problem is in the announcement made up front in the first place. People don't usually make these announcements unless it is as a warning that they will be on the lookout for players who would violate some stricture of behavior stated in the announcement.

My standard introduction is something along the lines of: "this is PFS, so I play as close to RAW as I can. That said, I do make mistakes and I welcome any and all corrections. If there's a disagreement, we'll try to look up the rule if it can be done quickly, but if things bog down, I'll make a call and we'll move on. I roll my dice in the open, which means I don't fudge rolls. I'm not out to kill PCs, but I do try to play NPCs to the height of their intelligence."

What I don't say, but do, is scale tactics to PC level and/or player experience level. I will also do my best to help a player find every last bonus or reroll if his PC is about to die.

I say the above because I want the players to know the following:

  • I'm not going to change rules or the scenario to make it harder (or easier)
  • I'm not interested in protracted rules arguments mid-game
  • I want the players to be thinking tactically to the best of their ability, but at the same time
  • I'm not looking for blood

The only real behavior I'm looking to curtail is extended rules-lawyering. As my presence here will prove, I'm more than happy to debate rules--but not when 3 - 5 other people are caught in the middle.

If you think something like what I'm saying is intimidating to players, I'd genuinely like to know that so I can correct my behavior.


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I thought all players were there to buff my ego and prop up my insecurities? No? Well then, this game is stupid. [/sarcasm

Liberty's Edge

Speaking towards fudging dice as a GM.

If I am GMing a table and I simply cannot roll over a 5 for the first half of the session, I will more than likely fudge dice minorly to at least give a challenge for the players.

I follow two rules here though, when I fudge I will only choose a number from 11-16 or 17. This lets people who optimized front line damage soakers and opportunity to feel special, but still at risk. I will NEVER fudge a critical/critical threat, and I will NEVER fudge a nat 1.

I feel it is the GM's job to provide a challenge and I will provide. I will not seek player deaths, but I will seek hit points.

To date I have only fudged a few times, I normally roll fairly average.

The Exchange

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Zach Williams wrote:

Speaking towards fudging dice as a GM.

If I am GMing a table and I simply cannot roll over a 5 for the first half of the session, I will more than likely fudge dice minorly to at least give a challenge for the players.

I follow two rules here though, when I fudge I will only choose a number from 11-16 or 17. This lets people who optimized front line damage soakers and opportunity to feel special, but still at risk. I will NEVER fudge a critical/critical threat, and I will NEVER fudge a nat 1.

I feel it is the GM's job to provide a challenge and I will provide. I will not seek player deaths, but I will seek hit points.

To date I have only fudged a few times, I normally roll fairly average.

when/if I am at your table Mr. Williams, please do not.

It teaches the younger impressionable players (even the older impressionable players) and it's all going to come out even in the end. Your low rolls now will be ballanced by high rolls at the next table, and I just might need the resources I spent at yours in the "hit point tax" at the next table.

Liberty's Edge

nosig wrote:
Zach Williams wrote:

Speaking towards fudging dice as a GM.

If I am GMing a table and I simply cannot roll over a 5 for the first half of the session, I will more than likely fudge dice minorly to at least give a challenge for the players.

I follow two rules here though, when I fudge I will only choose a number from 11-16 or 17. This lets people who optimized front line damage soakers and opportunity to feel special, but still at risk. I will NEVER fudge a critical/critical threat, and I will NEVER fudge a nat 1.

I feel it is the GM's job to provide a challenge and I will provide. I will not seek player deaths, but I will seek hit points.

To date I have only fudged a few times, I normally roll fairly average.

when/if I am at your table Mr. Williams, please do not.

It teaches the younger impressionable players (even the older impressionable players) and it's all going to come out even in the end. Your low rolls now will be balanced by high rolls at the next table, and I just might need the resources I spent at yours in the "hit point tax" at the next table.

You do bring up a good point that I have considered before, and think about heavily if I fudge a roll. Which is why I rarely do it and I should have specified, I do not do it on open game days or conventions. If I am at a table in a location such as a convention, or open gaming, I encourage everyone to roll in the open including me.

I will fudge for private groups, or know the players well.


To be fair, your GM(s) has/have probably fudged a few rolls here and there. S/He just probably didn't even mention it to you. It's a balancing act between wanting to tell an exciting story and brutally murdering PCs left, right, and center.

Ultimately, it's up to the GM to make a table/adventure/campaign exciting and fun. As long as all players are having a good time, everyone has a chance to contribute, and the DM gets to tell the exciting story they wanted to tell, everyone wins.

And isn't that the point of this whole thing?

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

trollbill wrote:
The point is that the problem is in the announcement made up front in the first place. People don't usually make these announcements unless it is as a warning that they will be on the lookout for players who would violate some stricture of behavior stated in the announcement.

I think I see where you're coming from, Bill, but I take issue with your interpretation. I'll call out a few of my table rules ahead of time. For example, I require players to write out their prepared spellcasters' spell lists for the day. "Can you change it up? Absolutely! But if you don't tell me otherwise, I'd like to see the default spells your character would have prepared."

I tell players the reason for this is that I want to double-check and make sure I've read up on any unfamiliar spell, but it's also the case that I've run into a phenomenon I call "Schroedinger's Mage" (or "Of course I prepared knock this morning.")

I also run through a very quick list of how I handle some gray areas of the rules. (Spring-loaded wrist sheaths, for example.) I do this because I want my players to know ahead of time how the game is going to function. A tense moment during combat is the wrong time for me to let you know that, no, you cannot have a scroll of breath of life in your spring-loaded wrist sheath, or that, yes, using it does provoke an attack of opportunity.

I want all that out of the way, before Ambrus Valsin storms into the briefing room with a haggard look on his face.


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Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

To be fair, your GM(s) has/have probably fudged a few rolls here and there. S/He just probably didn't even mention it to you. It's a balancing act between wanting to tell an exciting story and brutally murdering PCs left, right, and center.

Ultimately, it's up to the GM to make a table/adventure/campaign exciting and fun. As long as all players are having a good time, everyone has a chance to contribute, and the DM gets to tell the exciting story they wanted to tell, everyone wins.

And isn't that the point of this whole thing?

spoilering in an attempt do avoid a derail:
I'm sure some of my GMs have, and I'm sure sometimes I haven't caught it. But there have been times that I'm pretty sure they did. That's part of the problem I have with a screen in the first place. It tells me up front that the GM doesn't want to me to see his rolls, which makes me immediately suspicious of any 'clutch' rolls, whether for or against the PCs.

Personally, I'd much rather see the natural 20 and sweat out the confirmation or see the natural 1 and rejoice in our luck. But I'll readily admit that my approach to PFS is as a game first, a story a close second.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

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Funny. I had a conversation with a newer GM about this subject, just this weekend at a convention. I'd spoken with her before, and told her that, when all was said and done, it's the story that's paramount. People will talk about cool stories for years, but they'll forget weird die probabilities within a couple of hours.

Vrog Skyreaver wrote:
Ultimately, it's up to the GM to make a table/adventure/campaign exciting and fun. As long as all players are having a good time, everyone has a chance to contribute, and the DM gets to tell the exciting story they wanted to tell, everyone wins. And isn't that the point of this whole thing?

(I bolded the relevant part of this.)

But, I continued on, the GM doesn't get to determine the story. The GM facilitates the players telling the story.

Here's an example. A couple years ago, during a scenario I'll not mention, a PC at my table saw a warship coming up, fast, on the party's boat. The PCs set sail away from the pursuer, but it was a losing proposition.

So, one PC made short work of things with a spell of invisibility, a potion of levitate and a feather token: anchor. Now, I could have announced, "Fine, but there's another ship coming up, right behind that one." But why do that? Why rob a player of a great story, that we're still telling, years later? Because it wasn't the story I had in front of me?

The problem with the GM fudging die rolls towards the mean is that, in the end, you get average adventures. You get the stories that the scenario authors decided to tell, rather than the stories that the players -- who can take advantage of the GM's low rolls -- want to tell.

The Exchange

redward wrote:
...Personally, I'd much rather see the natural 20 and sweat out the confirmation or see the natural 1 and rejoice in our luck....

(snipping a line out of the spoilered text to expand on it....)

this! this is cool!

I roll in the open and roll BIG dice. The d6 are 1" cubes, surely you have seen some? I have several sets (and loan more out if needed), and always roll in the open. And I tell people that I do it (and advise beginers to do it too) so that "...everyone can cheer with the good rolls, and moan with the bad...", so we can all feel part of the roll, even when we didn't even touch the dice.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Zach Williams wrote:
I feel it is the GM's job to provide a challenge

I disagree.

I believe it's the GM's job to represent the NPCs and setting in their interactions with the PCs, so that everyone working together creates a series of interactions unique to that particular combination of PCs, NPCs, events, and luck.

The players bring unique PCs, the GM brings a set of NPCs, events, and setting details; they meet, they interact, you mix in the luck of the dice, and you watch what story unfolds.

Sometimes the story that unfolds is a TPK, sometimes it's a cakewalk, sometimes it's somewhere in between. But I believe it's always supposed to be a unique product of that table's mix of PCs, scenario and luck; for the GM to decide ahead of time how he/she wants it to play out and then altering any events that cause it to stray too far from their personal vision, is a very short-sighted idea of what this big beautiful game can be, and is a disservice to everyone at the table—including the GM.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vrog Skyreaver wrote:

As long as all players are having a good time, everyone has a chance to contribute, and the DM gets to tell the exciting story they wanted to tell, everyone wins.

And isn't that the point of this whole thing?

I find that the harder the GM tries to make the second bolded part come true, the less likely it is that the first bolded part is happening.

GMs having a particular story they want to tell and trying to make sure it gets told instead of just seeing what story naturally unfolds, is one of the larger sources of bad games, hurt feelings and general non-fun in this hobby.

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