First of all: Apologies if this is in the wrong thread.
I'm getting ready to run my first Pathfinder campaign which would be set in Ravenloft. After talking with a friend of mine, I wasn't sure if I wanted to run it with full on Pathfinder classes as it seemed a bit overpowered. I decided to use the NPC classes for the PCs with the addition of feats that if taken, would give PCs access to certain class powers (as per 3.5's Unearthed Arcana).
I wanted to post the class power feats here just to get some feedback. My only fear is it might end up too underpowered. Besides the feats, I'm also making one change to the Adept class.
Adepts may choose to be either an Adept (divine) or a Sage (arcane). Sages gain the summoned familiar ability and use Intelligence to cast spells. Adepts can choose one domain of their deity instead of summon familiar and use Wisdom to cast.
Armor Training
As fighter ability. Must chose light, medium or heavy armor. Prerequisite: Base attack +3.
Armor Mastery
As fighter ability. Must chose light, medium or heavy armor. Prerequisite: Armor Traning.
Bloodline
As the sorcerer ability. Discuss with DM before taking. Prerequisite: First level. DM approval with back-story. Alternatively, actions in game might “unlock” a bloodline.
Channel Energy
As the cleric ability. Prerequisite: ability to cast divine spells.
Evasion
As the monk ability. Prerequisite: Base Reflex save +3.
Favored Enemy
As the ranger ability. May be selected more than once; each additional selection improves any one favored enemy bonus (including the one just selected) by 2.
Greater Sneak Attack
Add +4d6 to your sneak attack damage. Prerequisites: Stealth 18 ranks, sneak attack, improved sneak attack.
Improved Evasion
As the monk ability. Prerequisites: Base Reflex save +7, evasion.
Improved Sneak Attack
Add +3d6 to your sneak attack damage. Prerequisites: Stealth 11 ranks, sneak attack.
Loremaster
As the bard ability. Prerequisites: Three Knowledge skills at 10 ranks each.
Smite Evil
As the paladin ability, once per day, plus one additional daily use per five character levels. Prerequisite: good alignment.
Sneak Attack
As the rogue ability, but +2d6 on damage rolls. Prerequisites: Hide 4 ranks, Move Silently 4 ranks.
Specialist
As the wizard ability. Gains Arcane School ability and may add those spells to spell list. Prerequisites: Knowledge (Arcane) 8 ranks, ability to cast arcane spells.
Trap Sense
Combines the rogue class features trap sense and trapfinding. Prerequisite: Perception 4 ranks.
True Believer
Gain one extra domain. Prerequisites: Domain class ability and Wisdom 16+.
Uncanny Dodge
Combines the barbarian class features uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge. All class levels stack to determine the minimum character level required to sneak attack the character.
Weapon Mastery
As fighter ability. Must chose specific weapon. Prerequisite: Basic Attack Bonus +10 and Weapon Training.
Weapon Training
As the fighter ability. Prerequisites: Basic Attack Bonus +5 and Weapon Focus in a weapon from the desired group.
Wild Empathy
As the druid ability. Prerequisite: Handle Animal 4 ranks.
I share the questions and concerns of the above poster. I'd like to know more. Additionally, if power creep is a concern, then yeah, Pathfinder is all about that.
Power creep is indeed the concern here. I was thinking of having the class ability advance with level instead of having them pick it multiple times.
I limited the Fighter abilities to a specific weapon or type of armor so that if a Warrior picked it up, they are limited in that concern. The levels do seem a little slow but my thought was giving them a small edge (since they are not on the same level as an equivalent fighter). The Armor Mastery ability though is a bit too good at Level 5. Perhaps I should give it a pre-req of a higher BAB or an ability score requirement as well?
Power creep is indeed the concern here. I was thinking of having the class ability advance with level instead of having them pick it multiple times.
I limited the Fighter abilities to a specific weapon or type of armor so that if a Warrior picked it up, they are limited in that concern. The levels do seem a little slow but my thought was giving them a small edge (since they are not on the same level as an equivalent fighter). The Armor Mastery ability though is a bit too good at Level 5. Perhaps I should give it a pre-req of a higher BAB or an ability score requirement as well?
I'd probably make everything you want to add as a feat, class feature's specifically, scale by level, etc. I'd definitely add a BAB OR level prereq for something to make sure they don't get it "too soon".
Feat Name [Class Feature]
Flavor text.
Prerequisites: x, y, z, [classes you want to have access]
Benefits: ect.
Alternatively:
Take the Pathfinder class and just start yanking stuff you don't like/feel fits/think is balanced. This is probably the easiest.
You could run it using the Conan d20 classes. I tried it once a while back when I ran Ravenloft and we loved it, but it's not for everyone.
You could use the 3.5 core classes instead of the inflated Pathfinder. SRD is free.
Ultimately, what you are comfortable with is the best way to go, so whatever you decide I'll help the best I can.
Your players are going to get bored with NPC classes, and NPC classes will be underpowered. I was a player in this 3.5 module, and the players will need the ability to kick some butt. Let them play regular PC classes and delay the level advancement. I forget where they are supposed to end up (level 9 maybe?), but 1 or 2 levels behind that should suffice.
Your players are going to get bored with NPC classes, and NPC classes will be underpowered. I was a player in this 3.5 module, and the players will need the ability to kick some butt. Let them play regular PC classes and delay the level advancement. I forget where they are supposed to end up (level 9 maybe?), but 1 or 2 levels behind that should suffice.
Ciaran, this isn't the module Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. This is the actual campaign setting. If I was running just the module, I would use normal classes.
Power creep is indeed the concern here. I was thinking of having the class ability advance with level instead of having them pick it multiple times.
I limited the Fighter abilities to a specific weapon or type of armor so that if a Warrior picked it up, they are limited in that concern. The levels do seem a little slow but my thought was giving them a small edge (since they are not on the same level as an equivalent fighter). The Armor Mastery ability though is a bit too good at Level 5. Perhaps I should give it a pre-req of a higher BAB or an ability score requirement as well?
I'd probably make everything you want to add as a feat, class feature's specifically, scale by level, etc. I'd definitely add a BAB OR level prereq for something to make sure they don't get it "too soon".
Feat Name [Class Feature]
Flavor text.
Prerequisites: x, y, z, [classes you want to have access]
Benefits: ect.Alternatively:
Take the Pathfinder class and just start yanking stuff you don't like/feel fits/think is balanced. This is probably the easiest.You could run it using the Conan d20 classes. I tried it once a while back when I ran Ravenloft and we loved it, but it's not for everyone.
You could use the 3.5 core classes instead of the inflated Pathfinder. SRD is free.
Ultimately, what you are comfortable with is the best way to go, so whatever you decide I'll help the best I can.
Thank you for that. I think I might stick with the NPC class idea largely because I've been organizing it and liking it a lot. I'm going to have it scale by level, like you were saying, to help them. I think I also like that they can easily customize the classes as they go.
The other idea I may use is as part of failed Powers Checks, players might get certain other class abilities as gifts from the Dark Powers (such as rage for someone who gives into violence).
@Lady Strahd
Hey, i am also running a ravenloft campaign using pathfinder, and let me tell you this, although the classes in pathfinder are indeed stronger than 3.x (which ravenloft was designed on), keep in mind that a lot of evil creatures become stronger in ravenloft.
I modified a few rules a bit, but the general baseline is this:
Every undead creature has 2 more Hit Dice in ravenloft, which normally result in +1 or +2 on their attack, extra health, extra saves. All undead creatures have +2 or +4 (up to you) to channel resistance.
A single group of four zombies can be challenging to a first level group.
Not only that, but vampires, werewolves, mummies, all of them are stronger than regular in ravenloft. On top of that, the realms reward those of evil aligment that practice evil, evil creatures are also subject to power checks. Im not sure if you are familiar with those, but they are basically the plane itself corrupting you, and everything is corruptible. That corruption can go from anything like a +4 to strength, to the ability to cast curses at will.
Use those powers to make stronger monsters.
Some class features are also changed.
Like, all abilities that give immunity to something, be it disease, curses or poison, wont work against a dreadlord powers, or a closed domain enviroment effect.
Nothing in ravenloft can become completely immune to natural fear, only fear caused by spells, althought a paladin aura of courage grants a bonus against fear effects.
Also, nobody can detect evil or good in ravenloft, those abilities must be changed to either chaos or order detection. In my case, i replaced the paladin ability for detect undead and detect innocents. But they can find out by trial and error (smiting a creature and figuring out of it worked or not).
And im also applying many other rules that can be found on ravenloft 3.0 edition.
EDIT:
Also remember that many monsters in pathfinder were balanced with the class buffs in mind. I happened to have a paladin attack skeletons with chairs and tables because his sword wouldnt do enough damage.
EDIT2
On another situation, they had to grapple and immobilize a werewolf because they simply had no silver weapons (10/silver is nasty).
Also remember this about ravenloft, there are no metropolis' in Ravenloft except for necropolis. And of course, you want your player's to go there. Ravenloft isn't allowed to grow large. Mist ruins the fun for everyone. It's insanely difficult to find an adamantine weapon in the store. You never will actually as you would have to go to a large city and pray that they have it. Ravenloft, also has will saves/horror saves for many hideous things. Also remember, that vampires can come from anywhere. To include children. You see that teddy bear? It's actually the source of an unhallow spell.
********** Gunslingers have great flavor in Ravenloft, Van Richten utilized a revolver*********
The elemental planes are different water = blood, earth = grave, fire = pyre, and air = mist.
A flaming blade smells like burning human flesh.
a frosty blade, gives off what appears to be leaking frozen blood.
an acid blade, is a grayish acid that you can see sediment dropping from.
and the shocking blade gives off a strange mist that is electrified.
Half of Ravenloft isn't the encounters, it's the demiplane and the effects it has.
A flaming blade smells like burning human flesh.
a frosty blade, gives off what appears to be leaking frozen blood.
Those are pretty nice suggestions. My players are about to obtain a flaming weapon, and they are looking for a "frost-forged" legendary sword. Those descriptions will give them the creeps :P
The metropolis thing is correct, i run my ravenloft games as low magic. Players around lv3-4 are just starting to see +1 items. And hardly will ever see anything above +3, unless they craft them themselves.
My favourite encounter in ravenloft, ever, is that bloody house.
Ravenloft = Gothic Horror, it is designed to give the people the creeps.
One more thing about ravenloft :(
Wizards are greedy, they don't share their spellbooks with anyone. Generally, if you want a powerful magical item, you have to make it yourself. If a character becomes overly powerful, you can talk to the player and inform them that when a character becomes to powerful in ravenloft, ravenloft releases them from ravenloft. Ravenloft in itself is Neutral Evil. It cares not for the balance of good and evil, it just loves evil. The only law it follows is it's laws, and is very sporadic and ever changing. You are ravenloft :) Always remember that. Oh, and don't forget about the grim reapers :P
Thanks for the tips Oliver but I am very familiar with Ravenloft. I'm more looking for suggestions on the NPC class thing I posted in the beginning of the thread.
I was giving it some thought and decided to look over the warrior - I hadn't in some time. I seem to recall they got bonus feats, but I was apparently wrong.
Anyway, I think what I'd sugest is for you to grant them a form of talent trees to choose from and talents at every odd level, i.e.
1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 you get a talent. I'd recommend giving them 4 + Int skills, but that's just a personal preference.
Warrior Talent Tree
Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies.
Armor Training (Ex) Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. In addition, a warrior can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor.
Upon selecting this talent at base attack bonus +7, a warrior can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
This talent may be selected multiple times, up to a maximum of four times (base attack bonus +3, +7, +11, +15).
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +3
Armor Mastery (Ex) At 19th level, a warrior gains Damage Reduction 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield.
Prerequiste: Base attack bonus +19, Armor Training
Bravery A warrior gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every four levels beyond 6th.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
You can add in Weapon Training, as well - I didn't because I'm going to bed now, hehe.
Anyway, hope that helps!
Edit: Almost forgot. You could switch the prereqs to level if you wanted. I put it as BAB +X so you could decide if you wanted classes to access broader ranges of "Trees," that is, an "Expert" could take weapon training or a couple Armor Trainings, etc. Same idea in reverse - a warrior might want to snake a couple talents for +2d6 Sneak Attack or some such.
Something to check out might be Epic Meepo's Archetypes thread. He's done a number of NPC class archetypes. Might be work a look to see what he's done. Just do a thread search for "Warrior Archetype", "Expert Archetype", etc. They're near the end of the thread if you want to work backwards.
I was giving it some thought and decided to look over the warrior - I hadn't in some time. I seem to recall they got bonus feats, but I was apparently wrong.
Anyway, I think what I'd sugest is for you to grant them a form of talent trees to choose from and talents at every odd level, i.e.
1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19 you get a talent. I'd recommend giving them 4 + Int skills, but that's just a personal preference.
Warrior Talent Tree
Far more than mere thugs, these skilled warriors reveal the true deadliness of their weapons, turning hunks of metal into arms capable of taming kingdoms, slaughtering monsters, and rousing the hearts of armies.
Armor Training (Ex) Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. In addition, a warrior can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor.
Upon selecting this talent at base attack bonus +7, a warrior can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
This talent may be selected multiple times, up to a maximum of four times (base attack bonus +3, +7, +11, +15).
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +3
Armor Mastery (Ex) At 19th level, a warrior gains Damage Reduction 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield.
Prerequiste: Base attack bonus +19, Armor Training
Bravery A warrior gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 at 6th level and every four levels beyond 6th.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.You can add in Weapon Training, as well - I didn't because I'm going to bed now, hehe.
Anyway, hope that helps!
Edit: Almost forgot. You could switch the prereqs to level if you wanted. I put it as BAB +X so you could decide if you wanted classes to access broader ranges of "Trees," that is, an "Expert" could take weapon training or a couple Armor Trainings, etc. Same idea in reverse - a warrior might want to snake a couple talents for...
I love that! I think I might make three or four for each class, that would be perfect. Thank you very much for that idea.
Something to check out might be Epic Meepo's Archetypes thread. He's done a number of NPC class archetypes. Might be work a look to see what he's done. Just do a thread search for "Warrior Archetype", "Expert Archetype", etc. They're near the end of the thread if you want to work backwards.
I like these though I'm unsure where I would go with making more. But there are some good ideas in there. Thanks :)
|
I did something kinda similar in my last Ravenloft campaign.
I started the players off as NPCs using the non-heroic NPC stat array and only permitted NPC classes. The commoner was allowed but I gave it the added perk of an extra hero point.
After level 1 I allowed the players to take PC classes normally and gave them stat boosts to bring their ability scores closer to those of PCs.
It'd certainly be possible to restrict classes, but it's just as easy to slow levelling, reduce magic items, and use harder monsters.
I have played with the idea of just letting them take PC classes at a certain point. The other thing I looked at doing was PC classes with medium leveling and just putting treasure on the slow track as well.
Have to say the game isn't really designed to work with the PCs using NPC classes. I think you're making more work for yourself than you really need for the effect. It might be better handled with some of the suggestions here of just making it very difficult to acquire things taken for granted in other settings. You want a flaming sword? Not only can you not buy one, but if you're not willing to quest for a pre-made one, you have to track down the ingredients (no just pouring raw gold into magic items). And the process of acquisition will involve unpleasant things and powers checks.
Let me know how it goes though, I would be interested. I'm in preparation for re-skinning Carrion Crown to be a Ravenloft campaign right now for some players interested in the setting but not so familiar with it that I can't blend it with Ustalav where it's convenient.
I love that! I think I might make three or four for each class, that would be perfect. Thank you very much for that idea.
Glad it helped!
I'm a huge fan of the talent tree mechanics. The concept can really add to the feeling of customizing your character and making it your own.
I scrapped the idea and decided to just go with normal PC classes using Mistfinder. I'll see how that goes.
Let me know how Carrion Crown in Ravenloft goes? I thought about running it myself at some point, but having the PCs trying to stop Azalin Rex from returning.