Chromnos |
So I normally don't play rogues. But with all the comments that a rogue isn't effectively optimizable going around (tier 5, weak etc, etc), I thought I'd give the class a shot. And, I have to say, it's pretty fun digging into something that's not my normal bailiwick.
Looking at the class, I began to wonder how practically effective the Use Magical Device skill is in game-play? In general, I'm wondering about your experiences with this skill from the point of view of a rogue. Are resources available in most games for wands at, say, 2-7th level? Do you end up competing with casters and ruffling feathers for said wands as item drops? Has anyone effectively emulated another class for an advanced item at higher level when said item wasn't otherwise usable? Are scrolls worth using with this skill, or are they more just an enormous pain to work through? Is it worth dumping a feat to get +2 to UMD together with the curious trait?
More a niche skill? Or something quite effective that tends to get over-looked in a game that is now full to the brim with casting classes?
Thoughts?
andreww |
Early on it is terrible for in combat use as the DC's are high. Base DC20 to activate a wand, DC23 to do something simple like cast invisibility off a scroll, DC30 and then DC29 to cast a teleport spell from a scroll if you lack a 15 Int.
It gets better at higher level but it also gets expensive very quickly. Level 4 scrolls are 700g each, level 5 over 1100. Low level scrolls can add a lot of utility but you will be running up against very short durations unless you spend even more money boosting their caster level.
Chromnos |
Early on it is terrible for in combat use as the DC's are high. Base DC20 to activate a wand, DC23 to do something simple like cast invisibility off a scroll, DC30 and then DC29 to cast a teleport spell from a scroll if you lack a 15 Int.
It gets better at higher level but it also gets expensive very quickly. Level 4 scrolls are 700g each, level 5 over 1100. Low level scrolls can add a lot of utility but you will be running up against very short durations unless you spend even more money boosting their caster level.
Hmm...
Doesn't take too much work to start out with a +9 to +11 UMD at level 1.
Cha 12 +1, 1 rank, 3 class skill, 3 half elf skill focus, 1 curious trait, 2 feat = 11
That gives you a 60% chance to activate a wand at level 1.
The scrolls rules seem to be rather complex and problematic, though.
Corvino |
If I recall correctly it gets a bit of a boost at mid-levels due to the Skill Mastery Advanced Talent. I don't know how legit it is, but I've seen it suggested that Skill Mastery may allow rogues to take 10 on UMD checks. It has also been suggested that this is reserved for rule-bending Cads of the lowest order (specific words changed to protect the easily offended). So given that you're at least level 10, if you max UMD you'll always succeed with wands, and depending on skill ranks/CHA you may auto-succeed on any number of other things too.
There are quite a few uncontroversial ways to up you chances of success, in any case. A Circlet of Persuasion will set you back 4,500gp and nets you +3 on the check. So at level 10 with 10 ranks in UMD, +0 CHA bonus and the Circlet with minimal optimisation you'll have an 85% chance of using a wand in combat. You can up this further with a luckstone, pale green prism ioun stone etc - many of which rogues will end up with anyway to boost to-hit.
Mudfoot |
It's a bit pointless at very low levels because a) your chance of it working is low unless you pile on the investment and b) you don't have any MDs to U. So I'd save my points and feats until about 5th level, and then go all in. The exact time depends on when you get a useful item to play with and whether another PC is likely to be getting better use out of it.
Low-level rogues are fairly competitive anyway (the BAB disparity hasn't kicked in and the casters don't have many spells yet), so they can afford not to do UMD as well.
Claxon |
If I recall correctly it gets a bit of a boost at mid-levels due to the Skill Mastery Advanced Talent. I don't know how legit it is, but I've seen it suggested that Skill Mastery may allow rogues to take 10 on UMD checks. It has also been suggested that this is reserved for rule-bending Cads of the lowest order (specific words changed to protect the easily offended). So given that you're at least level 10, if you max UMD you'll always succeed with wands, and depending on skill ranks/CHA you may auto-succeed on any number of other things too.
There are quite a few uncontroversial ways to up you chances of success, in any case. A Circlet of Persuasion will set you back 4,500gp and nets you +3 on the check. So at level 10 with 10 ranks in UMD, +0 CHA bonus and the Circlet with minimal optimisation you'll have an 85% chance of using a wand in combat. You can up this further with a luckstone, pale green prism ioun stone etc - many of which rogues will end up with anyway to boost to-hit.
To clarify, Skill Mastery doesn't work on UMD. Skill Mastery allows you to take 10 on skills you wouldn't normally be able to because of stress or distractions. The reason you cannot take 10 on UMD is not because of stress or distractions, but because the ability blatantly says you cannot take 10. It doesn't work.
Mudfoot |
To clarify, Skill Mastery doesn't work on UMD. Skill Mastery allows you to take 10 on skills you wouldn't normally be able to because of stress or distractions. The reason you cannot take 10 on UMD is not because of stress or distractions, but because the ability blatantly says you cannot take 10. It doesn't work.
RAW, I believe this is true. But if you want a rogue to be viable past 10th level, you'd better allow it.
Chromnos |
Thanks for the pointers!
I'm currently running an oracle of life/ancient lorekeeper through Serpent's Skull and noticed that the rogue's UMD was a bit low to take advantage of some of the loot. We ended up with a wand of vampiric touch and magic missile. I think the magic missile wand would have been especially useful for the rogue at our current level (4). Both ended up going to the magus who, incidentally, liked them so much he decided to take the wand wielder arcana.
Party-wise, though, I'd think we would have been better off if the rogue could have made good use of the magic missile wand for added versatility. Maybe in a level or two?
Chromnos |
It's a bit pointless at very low levels because a) your chance of it working is low unless you pile on the investment and b) you don't have any MDs to U. So I'd save my points and feats until about 5th level, and then go all in. The exact time depends on when you get a useful item to play with and whether another PC is likely to be getting better use out of it.
Low-level rogues are fairly competitive anyway (the BAB disparity hasn't kicked in and the casters don't have many spells yet), so they can afford not to do UMD as well.
So let's do a little math for a balanced but leaning toward UMDer...
14 int = +2 (trait)
UMD skill focus for half elf = +3
Ranks at lvl 5 = 5
Class skill = 3
Dangerously Curious = 1
Aptitude = 2 (as lvl 3 or 5 feat)
Total = 16 (80% success at lvl 5) or not too shabby.
At 10 assuming a +2 headband you end up with
int 3, sf 6 (bump 3 at 10), r 10, cs 3, dc 1, ap 2 = 25 which is pretty amazingly good.
The cost here is two traits, a feat, a racial feat and ten skill points. A rather significant investment, but not so much that the character is single-faceted.
I wonder what kind of wand/device load out one could scrounge together by ten without blowing all one's coin?
Corvino |
But if you want a rogue to be viable past 10th level, you'd better allow it.
This is more or less how I view the issue. As written it's not an option. It does allow Rogues a degree of flexibility at mid-to-high levels though because they're not getting anything else.
There are some very high-end build threads for Rogues, and one of the best DPR builds suggested is based on Major Magic (rogue talent) and Chill Touch Sneak Attacks. All credit to ChainsawSam for this one because it's the kind of deranged genius we need more of. When a class is exploring avenues this unusual it's a sign that the core of the class is a bit rotten.
Your party's rogue is unlikely to break the game by using UMD. But he or she may prove valuable in multiple situations when equipped with a decent UMD score, a couple of item bonuses and an efficient quiver full of level 1 wands.
Chromnos |
Corvino wrote:To clarify, Skill Mastery doesn't work on UMD. Skill Mastery allows you to take 10 on skills you wouldn't normally be able to because of stress or distractions. The reason you cannot take 10 on UMD is not because of stress or distractions, but because the ability blatantly says you cannot take 10. It doesn't work.
An interesting rogue talent in association with minor and major magic might be the picking of, say 1 first and one second level spell as a 'list' spell for rogues for the purpose of item use (minor magic) and one third and one fourth for major magic.
As an aside, I don't understand why someone hasn't come up with a magic item that allowed the rogue to apply sneak attack damage to resistant monster types. Some kind of goggles or somesuch that allow them an enhanced awareness of vulnerable spots. Or perhaps even an item trait (eldritch precision)?
Sneak attack is pretty decent as a damage mechanic, but there are many, many others in the game that equal or surpass it. Giving rogues a little more flex support wouldn't hurt too much.
In any case, part of the allure of the class is the fact that it's a bit challenging mechanically.
Claxon |
An interesting rogue talent in association with minor and major magic might be the picking of, say 1 first and one second level spell as a 'list' spell for rogues for the purpose of item use (minor magic) and one third and one fourth for major magic.
As an aside, I don't understand why someone hasn't come up with a magic item that allowed the rogue to apply sneak attack damage to resistant monster types. Some kind of goggles or somesuch that allow them an enhanced awareness of vulnerable spots. Or perhaps even an item trait (eldritch precision)?
Sneak attack is pretty decent as a damage mechanic, but there are many, many others in the game that equal or surpass it. Giving rogues a little more flex support wouldn't hurt too much.
In any case, part of the allure of the class is the fact that it's a bit challenging mechanically.
What are you talking about? Unlike in 3.5 there are very few monsters that aren't vulnerable to Sneak Attack and precision damage.
Oozes, elementals, proteans, incorporeal.
Chromnos |
Chromnos wrote:What are you talking about? Unlike in 3.5 there are very few monsters that aren't vulnerable to Sneak Attack and precision damage.An interesting rogue talent in association with minor and major magic might be the picking of, say 1 first and one second level spell as a 'list' spell for rogues for the purpose of item use (minor magic) and one third and one fourth for major magic.
As an aside, I don't understand why someone hasn't come up with a magic item that allowed the rogue to apply sneak attack damage to resistant monster types. Some kind of goggles or somesuch that allow them an enhanced awareness of vulnerable spots. Or perhaps even an item trait (eldritch precision)?
Sneak attack is pretty decent as a damage mechanic, but there are many, many others in the game that equal or surpass it. Giving rogues a little more flex support wouldn't hurt too much.
In any case, part of the allure of the class is the fact that it's a bit challenging mechanically.
Well, let's see...
All elementals and all creatures with the incorporeal type, to name a few.
In addition, there are numerous types that are simply unflankable requiring that you render them flat-footed or deny a dex bonus...
Yes, this is quite a few less than previously. All the more reason why an item trait wouldn't be that big of a deal. It's an attack option that requires a set-up already.
Wandering OT, but I think it might be an interesting additional bit of item support for the rogue.
Chromnos |
Mudfoot wrote:But if you want a rogue to be viable past 10th level, you'd better allow it.This is more or less how I view the issue. As written it's not an option. It does allow Rogues a degree of flexibility at mid-to-high levels though because they're not getting anything else.
There are some very high-end build threads for Rogues, and one of the best DPR builds suggested is based on Major Magic (rogue talent) and Chill Touch Sneak Attacks. All credit to ChainsawSam for this one because it's the kind of deranged genius we need more of. When a class is exploring avenues this unusual it's a sign that the core of the class is a bit rotten.
Your party's rogue is unlikely to break the game by using UMD. But he or she may prove valuable in multiple situations when equipped with a decent UMD score, a couple of item bonuses and an efficient quiver full of level 1 wands.
Link? I'd like to see that.
Has anyone put together an optimized magic missile or ray of frost build for the rogue? Seems some of the force feats might add a few decent conditions and the cantrip targeted ray should be eligible for sneak attack, if I'm not entirely mistaken?
Corvino |
For general Rogue optimisation this thread has given me a lot of ideas (Edit - for anyone looking for the previously mentioned chill touch rogue, it's on page 7):
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qcif&page=10?Ladies-and-Gentlemen-Its-time -we-made-the
There are a hell of a lot of pages but the actual suggestions of how to reliably sneak attack, survive retaliation and do decent damage have informed my thinking hugely.
As a Rogue you have skill points, and as a Human Rogue (likely) you have even more. UMD is definitely worth one measly skillpoint per level.
7heprofessor |
Having played a Rogue to high levels, I can attest the vast usefulness of the skill in general, and to be competent over highly specialized specifically. The skill only truly shines after 10th level when the Rogue can select Skill Mastery (something I recommend for any skill-oriented build).
That said, my DM was slightly above average when it came to wealth by level, and so there was always an extra trinket or two laying around that the group didn't mind going my way; especially considering my knack for using random spells and abilities to unorthodox effect. I think investing even moderately in UMD requires a certain amount of generosity on the DM's part as she needs to place items/encounters in the game for you to use it with.
I do suggest against specializing in it too heavily. I took Pragmatic Activator, pumped Int. and that's it.
At 18th level I had:
10 skill mastery + 18 ranks + 3 class skill + 1 cracked Pink and Green Sphere + 2 masterwork tool (lucky rabbit's foot) + 6 intelligence = 40
I could use any scroll up to 20th level automatically, and emulate an ability score of 25. Not too shabby!
Either way...just my 2 cp
PSusac |
OK, here's a trick to consider:
1) Blow it off entirely.
2) Get your party wizard to craft a Headband of Vast Intelligence that INCLUDES UMD for free.
Because step 2 is happening at around 5-7th level, you have effectively skipped over the useless levels of this skill, AND all your INT-based skills have gone up by +1.
As you level up, add more skills to it with each +2 INT bonus AND add Charisma and Wisdom to the mix.
It fills a slot, it allows you to max-out a different class skill as well. Note that "headband" and "head" are two different slots. So, what else are you going to put in that slot anyway?
Pupsocket |
IMO, its a useful skill in general. It can be used for healing wands and scrolls[I've seen a rogue save a heal-bot cleric's life twice before with UMD], and can be used for several other purposes. Since rogues generally have plenty of skill ranks, I usually keep this skill maxed out.
Given that Fighter, Rogue, Gunslinger and Cavalier are the only classes that can't use some sort of healing wand or scroll without a skill roll, that is faint praise indeed.
AndIMustMask |
at your thread title: no more so than nyone else who focuses on it--less so than any caster (since they dont need to even make a check for UMD items with spells from their list).
UMD is a helpful skill for everyone really, since it can help round out a class without spells provided you get the items you need.
some rogues are reliant on it as a crutch to function (such as sniping from a wanded tiny hut), but thats because they have a needlessly restrictive core damage feature and that's all i'm going to say on the subject to avoid yet another "rogues-suck-and-they-shouldnt-but-paizo-wont-fix-them-because-preserving-t heir-page-counts-in-older-prints-is-more-important" thread.
andreww |
PSusac wrote:So, what else are you going to put in that slot anyway?A headband of ninjutsu.
Also Headband of Wisdom given rogues have a weak will save and difficulty in boosting wisdom at character gen.
Claxon |
EvilPaladin wrote:IMO, its a useful skill in general. It can be used for healing wands and scrolls[I've seen a rogue save a heal-bot cleric's life twice before with UMD], and can be used for several other purposes. Since rogues generally have plenty of skill ranks, I usually keep this skill maxed out.Given that Fighter, Rogue, Gunslinger and Cavalier are the only classes that can't use some sort of healing wand or scroll without a skill roll, that is faint praise indeed.
You forgot barbarian, unless I forgot something.
PSusac |
PSusac wrote:So, what else are you going to put in that slot anyway?A headband of ninjutsu.
Well played.
Ughbash |
Also, if you are using an item that you've used before, you get +2.
Not quite.
It says if you have used it before you get a +2 to activate it blindly. Which is a DC 25 check for using soemthing that you don't know what it is.
If you are activating the Wand of cure light wounds and you know it is a wand of cure light wounds, the DC is still 20 (which is better then the 23 you would need for activating blindly with a +2).