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As the title asks. If your going to play a caster in PF society who will be relying on spells with DCs(such as a witch, or a sorcerer or wizard focused on save-or-sucks), is it safe to start with an 18 or 19 in your casting stat post-racial or will such a thing totally gimp your offensive casting(and hexes if a witch) into uselessness? Or will you be able to -get by- with an 18 or 19? Any thoughts/opinions on this would be greatly appreicated.
I personally wouldn't go lower than an 18 for a primary caster, and it does buy you some extra points if you aim lower for more rounded stats.
There was a time where gamers couldn't possibly get over an 18 in a casting stat.
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Nothing is safe. Everything will kill you, especially in PFS. That said, yes, you can have a +4 or lower bonus to your casting stat...it'll just make creatures a bit more likely to resist. If you're casting save-or-suck spells, you'll be a bit less likely to succeed the first casting. So what? How many martials (for example) kill a creature with their first attack?
It was my impression that PFS was meant for the lowest common denominator optimization-wise, so a super high stat probably wouldn't be a must have at level 1. I have no experience with it besides reading these boards though, so if I'm mistaken feel free to tell me so.
Personally I don't think it's worth it to ever buy anything above a 16 pre-racial; it just hurts in too many other areas, especially with a low point buy. A 15 + racial is good enough in most cases as you can bump it at 4th, but a 16 is of course better if you can reasonably afford it.
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I was particularly wondering about the effects of having 19 in my casting stat instead of 20, and whether or not this would make my character a useless/gimp or not? If it would not, I would like to know, and likewise if it would I would like to know. PFS uses a 20 point buy, so for a caster 20 post racial with decent dex and con is doable if you dump strength, wisdom and charisma(I'd be using an int-based caster here). However, I dislike the RP of having a negative charisma modifier, hence why I was considering going down from 20 int to 19 int, and wanted to know how much this would hurt my character for PFS play...
Well, the difference in 18 vs 20 is one point of DC, which translates to 5%. So, if we approach this somewhat simplistically, one out of every 20 saving throws made against your spells would fail at an 18 stat where they would have succeeded at a 20 stat. There is also the extra bonus first level spell, which can be useful. It may also net you an extra point of damage here and there.
That said, what can you get from the seven point buy you save by only going to 18? That's probably a point of AC, some Hitpoints, maybe some skills? Seven is a lot in point buy and I've heard PFS rewards variety rather than min/maxed characters.
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My cleric started at a 17, and at level 11 I just picked up my +6 headband for a 25 Wis. He's had a long and glorious career of casting save-or-suck spells (dismissal on the scary boss, chains of light to paralyze a hezrou and set it up for CdG from the rogue, plane shift away that big dumb monster, etc.).
Of course, he could be squeezing out another +1 or 2 on that DC, but not going that high means I had the Str for decent armor, the Con to stay alive, the Cha to channel well, and the Int to invest in the skills I want.
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I think buying a 17 pre-racial is asking for trouble in the long run, because something has to go. As a caster that's Strength, which is only really a problem if carrying capacity is heavily enforced or Charisma if you aren't a sorcerer. Those don't hurt too much to lose, but you'll feel the negative effects of low Con, Dex, and Wisdom forever.
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Yeah, but for a class like the witch(which is one of the options I really like) save-or-sucks are highly important, especially in the case of hexes like slumber...which is why I am concerned. If I where playing, say, a wizard or even a sorcerer I could avoid save-or-sucks entirely and focus on defenses, buffs, summons etc...but as a witch, save or sucks are part of what I do and cannot be avoided. Thus, thats why I'm wondering if an 18-19 in my casting stat will be enough to effectively use things like the slumber hex.
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I would say that an 18 is safe at the start because it you have more points for other stats. I would recommend having the 18 at creation, the high cost of adding 1 extra point to saves isn't worth it in my opinion. Plus, as you level, you will be adding points to that state with the headband and when u reach every 4th level.
If you are fine with your other stats being 10s or 11s, go with the 20. But an 18 will give you decently high save DCs to start and you can increase your dex or con so you are not as squishy. You can also look at spell focus feats to increase save DCs if you are majoring in a few schools.
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See above. More worried about hexes then anything else.
EDIT: Ninja'ed....and I see. Was that dump luck for your witch, though, or is 18-19 in the casting stat really not that bad as far as HEX(Note, hex, not spell) saves are concerned? Did you take ability focus(slumber hex) or something to offset the lower DCs on hexes? I mean, with +4 int mod slumber would have a pitiful cantrip-level save DC of 14. With ability focus(slumber) it would have a respectable DC of 16. Or did you just not bother with slumber and focus on hexes that don't really care about save DCs like evil eye + cackle etc...?
2/3 of my characters are save or suck specialist and I try to squeeze dc for all I can get. Think of the other feats/items that you will get to boost this. Think of what else you would give up to boost this if you could. I am certainly willing to sack another stat or two that I don't specialize in.
Is it dangerous? no, but i wouldnt do it.
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As we all are saying to some degree, having an 18, 19, or 20 in your spell derived ability is fine. Just do not go lower than that. The 20 will make the saves harder but at a cost of some of your other ability scores. But if you are playing a wizard or sorcerer type class, you can dump strength some to give points to other abilities.
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peeps
peeps
COME ON
First answer should have been "yes, it is safe" and this thread should have been over.
Jiggy gets 1/2 a point. The rest of you get zero.
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I didn't get to chime in yet!
I was going to say, I kind of wish a lot of the witches we played with didn't go so crazy on their DCs. I think that if I was playing one, it would be more fun to ratchet back the DCs so that they failed 10-15% more often.
Sometimes there's nothing more anti-climatic to the end fight of an evening than a witch winning initiative against the BBEG and slumber hex working to end the day. I sometimes wish those witches had more self control and waited until everyone else at least got a single round in first. Or scenario writers need to employ more evil elves...
That said, I think it's fully reasonable for a witch with a 16 Int to be the most loved witch in their region from the broader population of players, especially if they use their copious abilities to enhance their teammates.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Here's another way of looking at it:
There's a sort of baseline for the expected stats of people with PC class levels: the Heroic NPC stat array. The challenge level of the game is built around an assumption of 15/14/13/12/10/8.
That means that, after racial adjustments, the structure of the game expects your primary stat to be 17.
Seventeen.
In PFS (and probably lots of home games), a 20pt buy is given, so you can be a little stronger than that. Yay! So what does that mean?
You could use it to make an array like this:
16/14/14/12/10/8
Or this:
18/14/12/10/10/7
Which one do you think is closer to the baseline expectation of 15/14/13/12/10/8?
The game expects you to have a primary stat.
It does not expect that stat to be the maximum allowable.
It's okay to max out. It's okay to not max out.
There will be a difference between the two. That difference will not be "safety".
Depends what you're using, I'd say. If you're using a lot of things with no saving throws (summoning, most touch attacks, buffs, etc.) for example, then you don't really need to worry about save DCs and might not need an extra one or two bonus spell slots from having a high casting stat.
Might be worth it to focus a bit more on Dex or Con instead.
...Also depends on your GM, come to think of it. Unless they're absolutely brutal, a slightly-low casting stat shouldn't be too big of an issue.
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My cleric started at a 17, and at level 11 I just picked up my +6 headband for a 25 Wis. He's had a long and glorious career of casting save-or-suck spells (dismissal on the scary boss, chains of light to paralyze a hezrou and set it up for CdG from the rogue, plane shift away that big dumb monster, etc.).
Of course, he could be squeezing out another +1 or 2 on that DC, but not going that high means I had the Str for decent armor, the Con to stay alive, the Cha to channel well, and the Int to invest in the skills I want.
And that is how most people used to play....it used to be considered ok to have a 15 or 16 in a primary stat but now min-maxing and powergaming is making it seem unacceptable to have anything less than the highest possible main stat. If your whole character suffers just so that you can have a 5%-10% better chance to have a spell effect the creature then there is issues.
One PC in a game I was in had min-maxed his wizard so much that he had the highest possible casting stat he could. Then at 5th or so level when he took a bad hit for 25-30 damage he looked up and said "I'm dead". I said "you weren't even hit before, how can you be dead?". His response was "I have a 10 constitution, and I am a wizard with d4 HD" (3.5 edition). Hmmmm...guess a couple points of dex to avoid the hit or a couple points of con to take the hit are looking better than that +1-2 to your spell DCs now....
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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As an aside, I have two casting-focused PCs in PFS.
The first, currently almost 7th level, is a sorceress. I built her as my first "pure caster" in an attempt to step outside my comfort zone of gishes. As such, I knew I had to take STR to 7 to avoid temptation, so that was the first stat to be decided on. I wanted some DEX, but needed it to still be low enough that I wouldn't be tempted to pick up Weapon Finesse, so it became a 12. I was fairly indifferent to INT/WIS, so they stayed at 10 by default. That left me with CON and CHA, with 22 points that I was required to spend. Thus, I ended up with 14 CON and 20 CHA (including human bonus to CHA). So my only 20STAT caster had her casting stat determined last.
My other casting-focused PC is an undine cleric. He has an 18 WIS, which seems fine so far (though he's only 2nd level). This left room for a little CON, a little DEX, and a 14 INT to fit his concept. He feels pretty solid so far.
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For example, if you built a human wizard:
Str 7
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 19 (17 + 2 race bonus)
Wis 12
Cha 10
You can dump strength because you will only be carrying so much stuff as a caster. Just be careful not to overload with stuff if you do dump str. You will want at least a +1 if not a +2 in dex and con for ac and hit points. Plus having those bonuses will help your saves.
If each ability increase went to int, by lvl 12 you would have a +6 before any magical items.
You could go with a different race but you might find it harder to get a 19 or 20.
It is not safe at all. Your fellow players will probably murder you and dump your body in the woods as soon as they see you have failed to max out a casting stat. Don't risk it.
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I see. good advice....and that's too bad about ability focus. In that case, slumber is basically useless in PF society unless you have 20 int, because 14 is a terribly low DC. At least evil-eye still does something if they make the will save....However, if I start with 19 int, I'll have 20 by level 4, meaning if I hold off on slumber until level 4 my DC won't be an issue as it will be the same at that point as the guy who took a 20 int at level one anyway(He'd have 21 int at that point, which would still be the same +5 mod I'd have with my 20 int.)...and past that point items become available to boost int anyway so as long as I start with 19 int and focus on hexes that don't demand a good save until level 4 I should be fine without the starting 20.
Not sure how the lack of just a +1 make an ability useless.
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A save DC of 14 is, on average, the same save DC a -cantrip- has. Most things will make the save against a DC of 14 unless that particular save is terrible for them. Of course, that does mean the ability is not totally useless, as if something has abysmal will saves(most "dumb muscle" type enemies) it will still be effective against them. However, having the save DC of 14 as appose to 15 or 16 just means it's -more- situational then it normally would be.
A save DC of 14 is, on average, the same save DC a -cantrip- has. Most things will make the save against a DC of 14 unless that paticular save is terrible for them.
A DC 15 is not a great improvement. it is just 5% more likely to affect the target. If that 5% make the ability useless then that ability was not worthy in the first place.
somewhere aloong the line people seemed to come to the conclusion that the game is harder than it is. In all honesty you can start with a 16 in your prime stat and you'll do fine. Though its likey the games baseline assumes 17 and an 18 at 4th.
But really if you go lower its not like your crippling yourself.
No cantrip can do what slumber hex do.
By the way, I woudl say that in a 20 PB 20 in the casting stat is not optimizing your character. yes, you now have some more spells and the DC rise by +1, but you lose other things. For a witch, 10,14,14,18,10,10 is perfectly workable. If I dump str and cha I would invest in more con and wis, not in more int, but that is just me I guess.
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One of the big class imbalance complaints in the game is that it is safe to min max a caster, where it isn't safe to min max a martial. Esp if you are an int caster, where you not only increase your save DCs but also get more skill points which increase your characters flexibility rather than decreasing it like min/maxing should. But just because you can doesn't mean you have to. 5-10% difference isn't a big deal. And if that 5-10% reduction means you have 20 more hp, I'd definitely go with the extra hp myself.
I have an 11th level witch in pfs, I took the healing and greater healing hexes. Coupled with the scar hex it lets me heal my teammates while they are anywhere within one mile of me. I've been "the healer" at many tables. I throw control spells to keep people from getting hurt; it's nice to be able to heal them when something gets through. It's also great for all those captives you take/find in pfs and need to heal up so you can question them/save them. Free heals for npcs that takes zero party resources has come in handy in numerous scenarios.
I think you will find that most people on the forum will argue for an eighteen in your primary casting stat because any more is too heavy an investment for the return.
Take this advice, they aren't wrong.
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You really, really, really don't need a 20 in your primary casting stat in PFS to be effective.
You do need to be able to take a hit, whether it is spell damage or ranged attack, in PFS.
Be extremely careful when dumping Strength in PF. While normally getting it damaged/drained to 0 just knocks you unconscious, there are some things that can outright kill you with a Strength damage attack.
A 7 Str means that, on average, you will die after the second attack from a stock Shadow. Shadows are only CR3, so they are a legitimate, if difficult, opponent for even a 1st level party to run across.
I won't even go into all the issues I have seen with PCs with a Con of 7. Even at low levels, there will be creatures which will knock you into dying with a normal attack, and straight to dead from full health if they crit. And, at higher levels, spells cast at you that can kill you even on a successful save.
7th level Witch, Con 7 = 6+(4*6)-14 = 16 hit points, 23 with either FCB or Toughness, 30 with both. 9th level caster opponent, casting an empowered fireball, DC fairly high = 9d6 * 1.5, 9*3.5 for 31.5 average damage, + 15.75 empower, = 47 points damage or so average. If you save, for 23 points of damage, you are dead without either FCB por Toughness, staggered with either, and not feeling at all well with both, with 7 points left. Failing the save means instant trip to dead, even with both.
And I know of at least one PFS scenario with that exact opponent, with that starting tactic, at sub-tier 6-7.
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One other thing to remember is that for PFS, as long as the character hasn't played as a second level character, you can change things. So, if you're really not that sure, do one scenario with one stat configuration, then do the next scenario with a different configuration. Use the third to get those final tweaks in.