Greater Disarm Clarification


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Okay, Greater Disarm adds to Improved Disarm not just the +2 bonus, but that weapons now sail 15' in a random direction.

Simple question: If you have Greater Disarm, do you have to make the weapon travel the 15' or can you opt to just have the weapon drop in the target's square, as on a regular disarm?

Scarab Sages

I reckon of you've got Gtr Disarm surely as 'downtime' training you could make it your choice.. but the weapon being 15' is a tactical advantage

Sczarni

AntediluvianXIII wrote:
I reckon of you've got Gtr Disarm surely as 'downtime' training you could make it your choice.. but the weapon being 15' is a tactical advantage

Not true, usually it's better to leave in their square and swat them as they pick it up. I had a whip guy that would do the disarm-trip cycle and really tick off the GM...expecially when I got greater trip and swatted them as they went down...(imp whip mastery of course)

Grand Lodge

Shfish wrote:
AntediluvianXIII wrote:
I reckon of you've got Gtr Disarm surely as 'downtime' training you could make it your choice.. but the weapon being 15' is a tactical advantage
Not true, usually it's better to leave in their square and swat them as they pick it up. I had a whip guy that would do the disarm-trip cycle and really tick off the GM...expecially when I got greater trip and swatted them as they went down...(imp whip mastery of course)

Almost exactly. Yes, having the weapon 15' away is nice, but getting an AoO on them as they use a move action to pick up the weapon at their feet is sweet, too.

Especially since that would provoke from any of your allies who threatens them, as well.

Then they stand up, which provokes, and you get to disarm them again.

Then they pick up the weapon, so you get to trip them on that AoO...

Not quite a trip lock, but definitely a way to get someone to surrender without ever having to do much in the way of real damage to them.

Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, etc. When you have a high enough Dex to get 9 or 10 AoOs, it gets a bit sick...


As you can't trip-lock, you can't disarm-lock:
I don't see the benefit to let them pick-up the weapon when it would provoke an AoO when he moves to his weapon. Plus when he picks up his weapon, you gain one more AoO if you have combat reflexes without the need to have improved trip.


Quote:

Almost exactly. Yes, having the weapon 15' away is nice, but getting an AoO on them as they use a move action to pick up the weapon at their feet is sweet, too.

Especially since that would provoke from any of your allies who threatens them, as well.

It still doesnt get into my head how getting AoO when the enemy is picking up a weapon is any better than the enemy not attacking at all because it is unarmed.


And if you disarm while unarmed you can autmatically pick up the weapon... hard to do if you just threw it 15' away.


This is why literally no one should be without a weapon cord. There is no excuse for it except to keep disarm a viable tactic. They cost 1 sp. Every level 1 character who wields a weapon should have it. Sure, you get disarmed but you easily regain your weapon and it doesn't move away.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:
This is why literally no one should be without a weapon cord. There is no excuse for it except to keep disarm a viable tactic. They cost 1 sp. Every level 1 character who wields a weapon should have it. Sure, you get disarmed but you easily regain your weapon and it doesn't move away.

Wouldn't your opponent just sunder the cord before disarming?


Wolfsnap wrote:
Claxon wrote:
This is why literally no one should be without a weapon cord. There is no excuse for it except to keep disarm a viable tactic. They cost 1 sp. Every level 1 character who wields a weapon should have it. Sure, you get disarmed but you easily regain your weapon and it doesn't move away.
Wouldn't your opponent just sunder the cord before disarming?

Yes, but now they're burning two attacks instead of one and they'd need to have an additional feat to avoid the AoO. So even if this happens, it's far less common and more work to boot.


fretgod99 wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Claxon wrote:
This is why literally no one should be without a weapon cord. There is no excuse for it except to keep disarm a viable tactic. They cost 1 sp. Every level 1 character who wields a weapon should have it. Sure, you get disarmed but you easily regain your weapon and it doesn't move away.
Wouldn't your opponent just sunder the cord before disarming?
Yes, but now they're burning two attacks instead of one and they'd need to have an additional feat to avoid the AoO. So even if this happens, it's far less common and more work to boot.

Exactly. They have to burn an extra attack and feat. Without the feat that take an AoO, and the damaged caused by it inflicts a penalty to your CMB to sunder. Making it a lot less likely to work.

Theres also no rule against having more than one weapon cord attached to your weapon. To me it's reasonable that if you've gotten your weapon disarmed once or twice you would take the very reasonable cost of 2sp to attach to cords to your weapon to make it twice as hard to take away.

Grand Lodge

Wolfsnap wrote:
Claxon wrote:
This is why literally no one should be without a weapon cord. There is no excuse for it except to keep disarm a viable tactic. They cost 1 sp. Every level 1 character who wields a weapon should have it. Sure, you get disarmed but you easily regain your weapon and it doesn't move away.
Wouldn't your opponent just sunder the cord before disarming?

No, disarm, weapon dangling from arm, sunder, no AoO because he doesn't threaten without the weapojn in his hand.

Remember weapon cords are a move action, now, not a swift action, which means that they should provoke, since you aren't drawing the weapon, but retrieving an object.

So, given my absurdity:
Greater Trip the target.
Improved Disarm on the granted AoO from Greater Trip.
Iterative to sunder the weapon cord.

Given that my trip/disarm guy uses a reach weapon, he could sunder the cord first, likely without an AoO even without the Sunder feats.

And all I really wanted to do was verify if I could still just disarm into the square instead of disarm 15' in a random direction.

Oh, and for someone using a whip to do this type of thing, and the opponent doesn't have a weapon cord, or it has been sundered: with Improved Whip Mastery you should be able to use your whip to grab the fallen weapon and move it to you. Won't necessarily be an option with Greater Disarm, as that 15' could be behind the enemy, instead of behind you...

Grand Lodge

Claxon wrote:
fretgod99 wrote:
Wolfsnap wrote:
Claxon wrote:
This is why literally no one should be without a weapon cord. There is no excuse for it except to keep disarm a viable tactic. They cost 1 sp. Every level 1 character who wields a weapon should have it. Sure, you get disarmed but you easily regain your weapon and it doesn't move away.
Wouldn't your opponent just sunder the cord before disarming?
Yes, but now they're burning two attacks instead of one and they'd need to have an additional feat to avoid the AoO. So even if this happens, it's far less common and more work to boot.

Exactly. They have to burn an extra attack and feat. Without the feat that take an AoO, and the damaged caused by it inflicts a penalty to your CMB to sunder. Making it a lot less likely to work.

Theres also no rule against having more than one weapon cord attached to your weapon. To me it's reasonable that if you've gotten your weapon disarmed once or twice you would take the very reasonable cost of 2sp to attach to cords to your weapon to make it twice as hard to take away.

One weapon cord won't let you use another weapon in that hand. Two weapon cords, under a potentially reasonable inference, would interfere with each other.

And I have never seen anyone using two sets of those mitten clips, which is basically what a weapon cord would be. Something tied around your wrist, then some cord that is tied to your weapon's hilt. Where do you find room to attach a second cord? And if it is too light, it wouldn't hold your weapon against a disarm attempt that can throw the weapon 15' away...

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