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So I've been looking at building a Cleric with the Madness and Dark Tapestry domain/subdomains and I'm a little confused as to the legality in Pathfinder Society.
As far as I can tell, most of the Great Old Ones are not legal for society play. That seems to rule out all of those with the Dark Tapestry subdomain. Hero Lab seems to think that Azothoth and Yog-Sothoth are both PFS legal, however. Is this just one of those few occasions where it's wrong? Archives of Nethys show them as both illegal choices, and that's generally the more accurate of the two.
Is the Dark Tapestry subdomain itself legal?
The only way I can possibly think of getting it for a Cleric is by taking the 'Seperatist Archetype' which would make it 2 levels worse than normal. Is there anything I'm missing?
How about worshiping the 'Great Old Ones' as a pantheon? Hero lab seems to think that is legal too.
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There is one document and one document only that determines PFS legality.
"If a product does not appear on this list, then it is not considered legal for play."
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Thanks SlimGauge. That answers whether the subdomain itself is legal. It's in Bestiary 4 so it is.
Difficult to tell for the gods without reading all the books, but I should probably assume Archives of Nethys and some other threads I've read have it right and that all the gods with the subdomain are illegal.
That just leaves the question, are there any ways to get it besides the 'Separatist' archetype?
This must also mean that the 'Void' domain and 'Stars' subdomain aren't legal for PFS.
They are since the Void Domain appears in the Inner Sea World Guide along with the Scalykind Domain.
Groetus the God of the End Times is legal for PFS and seems to be the only god in the ISWG with the Void Domain to be legal based off of the additional resources page and the subdomains/domain changes listed here are legal for PFS as well
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How is it complicated?
If the option is explicitly allowed in a Additional Resources, then it is legal. Otherwise not.
Because it's difficult to find where the actual rule is written down. Most websites just had it listed as in the Bestiary 4. Only the Archives of Nethys listed it in the Paizo Blog. It required a lot of digging around to find the legal source material.
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Why does this have to be some complicated?How is it complicated?
If the option is explicitly allowed in a Additional Resources, then it is legal. Otherwise not.
This one is kind of an odd case. If you search for the actual mechanics, you don't find them. Bestiary 4 doesn't mention them as legal. In this case, the only way to find them out is to notice that on the right sidebar there are a few links to Blog articles, and one of them is where they are made legal.
Normally, yes, go to the Additional Resources, look at the book, find out if it's legal. This one was confusing, I totally get it.
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Lazlo, you are aware you must actually own the source you're using, right?
You can't just find a bunch of options online and piece together a character with them. PFS is a sort of "marketing campaign" for Paizo. If you don't own the book, or a PDF, you can't use it in PFS.
And owning HeroLab doesn't count, either.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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On topic... Doesn't black butterfly give the dark tapestry?
On a pure RAW level, I'd say yes. But in her description, it is said she considers the Great Old Ones and other beings from the Tapestry her mortal enemies, so fluff-wise I'd say no. I don't think there's been a specific ruling about it.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Tampere
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Confusingly, I think officially all the empyreal lords grant all the subdomains.
Except the ones they specifically list in Chronicle of the Righteous as never given by empyreal lords. I have no idea why Dark Tapestry isn't on that list.
Keep in mind that oracles aren't clerics. Deities don't sponsor oracles, they have at present, an undefined relationship with the mysteries that latch onto oracles, but you are not required to be a worshipper or even have an alignment congruent with any particular deity.On topic... Doesn't black butterfly give the dark tapestry?On a pure RAW level, I'd say yes. But in her description, it is said she considers the Great Old Ones and other beings from the Tapestry her mortal enemies, so fluff-wise I'd say no. I don't think there's been a specific ruling about it.
Not sure how this is relevant to the topic at hand, since no one had mentioned oracles.
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Lazlo, you are aware you must actually own the source you're using, right?
You can't just find a bunch of options online and piece together a character with them. PFS is a sort of "marketing campaign" for Paizo. If you don't own the book, or a PDF, you can't use it in PFS.
And owning HeroLab doesn't count, either.
Yes I'm aware of this, and own all the material I use for PFS. As for things I intend to use, like this... well I can't buy it until I find out which book it is in. :)
Since the legal source for Dark Tapestry in is the Paizo Blog, I assume I don't need to own that.
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Well, there might well be NPC clerics of Yog-Sothoth who are members of the in-world Pathfinder Society, but that's not really your question, is it? You're wondering why the campaign leadership allows some evil deities like Deskari, but not others.
Deskari, I'm guessing, was an oversight. If we were not allowed to play (Lawful Neutral) clerics of Lissala in Season 4, it follows that the Demon Lord of Locust would be an unwelcome patron when we fight against the Worldwound.
But in general, it seems reasonable that there are some bad-guy gods with neutral clerics who are edgy and cool to play, and others which the campaign leadership felt were just too disruptive. Yog-Sothoth is a good example. Other gods can be damaging to a cleric's mental stability(Groetus waxes into mind) but I can't imaging playing a sane cleric of Y.
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Confusingly, I think officially all the empyreal lords grant all the subdomains.
Where do you see this? I've now been looking intensively at additional resources and the two blog posts, but I don't see this anywhere?
More specifically I'm thinking of the Arson subdomain from Goblins of Golarion. Additional resources says this: "To create a goblin character, you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation. Only legal goblin PCs are allowed to choose anything from this book."
I don't think the Arson subdomain is in any other book, and therefore I don't believe that subdomain is legal for play - unless you're a goblin.
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Confusingly, I think officially all the empyreal lords grant all the subdomains.Where do you see this? I've now been looking intensively at additional resources and the two blog posts, but I don't see this anywhere?
More specifically I'm thinking of the Arson subdomain from Goblins of Golarion. Additional resources says this: "To create a goblin character, you must have a Chronicle sheet that opens the race as a legal option at character creation. Only legal goblin PCs are allowed to choose anything from this book."
I don't think the Arson subdomain is in any other book, and therefore I don't believe that subdomain is legal for play - unless you're a goblin.
I think the rule that Empyreal lords give all subdomains is of course trumped by AR stating that only certain races have access to certain books. IMO, that's a good thing. It's already a big weird to me that Empyreal Lords, who are weaker than deities, are actually more powerful than deities in the number and variety of subdomains they grant and that Empyreal Lords, who have a celestial type, grant the subdomains of the other celestial types, including the cross-alignment ones (frex, a LG archon empyreal lord with the Azata subdomain of Good.
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I think the rule that Empyreal lords give all subdomains is of course trumped by AR stating that only certain races have access to certain books. IMO, that's a good thing. It's already a big weird to me that Empyreal Lords, who are weaker than deities, are actually more powerful than deities in the number and variety of subdomains they grant and that Empyreal Lords, who have a celestial type, grant the subdomains of the other celestial types, including the cross-alignment ones (frex, a LG archon empyreal lord with the Azata subdomain of Good.
+1 to this. As now the Empyreal Lords have this option, but the fiendish lords cannot.
I hope this gets changed in the future. All of the lesser dieties be they fiends, empyreals, or lesser divinities should not get more than the 20 Major gods of the Inner Sea. Even the gods of Ancient Osirion should be limited due to the concentrated nature of their worship. The only exception would be Major gods of other Regions: Tian, Vudra, Arcadian, etc
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Dragnmoon...funny you should be the first to answer that, given where I remember you from.
Care to elaborate, given that that's a pretty spartan assertion (and I don't believe they could even be said to have on the table on "Day 1")?
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Dragnmoon...funny you should be the first to answer that, given where I remember you from....
Why? Lissala is not legal either. Was there a point there?
Edit: What you should actually remember me from is this post linked here.
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That I can't answer. You would have to Ask Mike his current position on that, though that was in place before him, so really you would have to ask Josh who was in control of PFS at the time.
Mike has just been continuing that.
There is a new Book coming out so there is a chance that might all change.
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There is a new Book coming out so there is a chance that might all change.
Ooooh, a "Book" with a capital 'B,' you say? All hail mighty Book!
In all seriousness, however: Which are you referring to? I'm pretty sure it's not the Advanced Class Guide. Is it Champions of Corruption? The only problem with that is that I don't recall its preceding counterparts for Good and Neutrality didn't actually talk much about deities - given that you've apparently been paying such close attention for so long, is there something else you're looking forward to that I'm not aware of?
So I see. Not bad - still, I have to wonder why they'd prohibit the Great Old Ones and not, say, Rovagug (whom some point at and say, "LOOK! Under the ground! It's a Fiend! It's an Abomination! It's...A GREAT OLD ONE!").He's covered under the general prohibition of evil characters. And presumably to give PFS at least the veneer of family friendliness.
Well you can still worship him under the one step rule as CN.