if a character has levels in both wizard and sorcerer, do all of the spells written in his spellbook count as "Spells Known" for the purposes of casting a spell with a sorcerer spell slot?
i'm almost entirely sure they do not, but this subject came up in another thread and i figured why not give it its own thread to settle the matter. also, if i HAVE been arguing incorrectly, i would like to know.
No but I don't believe that is what was being argued in the other thread.
No, they do not.
No but I don't believe that is what was being argued in the other thread.
it is precisely what was being argued because the person who brought it up said that a wizard "knows" all the spells he/she puts into their spellbook and that there is no distinctive definition for "spells known" within the rules. therefore a spell a wizard puts into a spellbook would qualify as a "spell known" for any and every use of the phrase in the game, to include a sorcerers spells known.
Incorrect.
Wizard Spells Known and Sorcerer Spells Known are entirely different things, even though they draw from the same list.
Both wizards and sorcerers "know" spells but they don't work the same way. If they did then the magic item allowing sorcerers to cast an additional spell that they know per day would also work with wizards, but it does not.
A Wizard knows Wizard spells and a Sorcerer knows Sorcerer spells. You can't cast a Wizard spell with a Sorcerer spell slot and vice versa. Even though they come from the same spell list they are different classes therefore need to be kept separate.
So yes a Wizard knows all the spells in his spellbook but that does nothing for his Sorcerer levels because the spells in his spellbook are not Sorcerer spells therefore he does not know them as a Sorcerer. If that makes sense.
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Such as Runestone of Power or Arcane Bloodline.
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those items don't work because they say they only work with spontaneous spellcasters... "Once per day, a spontaneous caster can draw upon a runestone of power to cast a spell" It has little to do with what they know and everything with the restriction of the item.
The arcane blood line makes no mention of such exception, it specifically says spells known.
Question for you, what do you think would happen if through eldritch heritage a lvl 20 oracle picked up an arcane bond... just one magic item that's really cool and cheap to enchant or also 1 spell he knows cast through it...
those items don't work because they say they only work with spontaneous spellcasters... "Once per day, a spontaneous caster can draw upon a runestone of power to cast a spell" It has little to do with what they know and everything with the restriction of the item.
The arcane blood line makes no mention of such exception, it specifically says spells known.
Question for you, what do you think would happen if through eldritch heritage a lvl 20 oracle picked up an arcane bond... just one magic item that's really cool and cheap to enchant or also 1 spell he knows cast through it...
Actually spells don't cross classes. That is what it has to do with, and that is why they call out class X or refer to certain features.
With regard to a bonded item it works for sorcs and wizards, but since it says they stack the intent is obvious that the devs intend for you to have one. If they wanted you to have a choice they would have said you can have one ....... or two........
Nowhere do the rules say you can have one, and like I said the rules are permissive most of the time.
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the rules both state they give you an arcane bond.
This isn't a bonus to a stat/ability/save etc so the stacking rule doesn't apply.
There's nothing in the rules that prohibits you from getting two arcane bonds. If you want to quote a rule that'd be swell, as it stands I have two different class features providing an item each.
the rules both state they give you an arcane bond.
This isn't a bonus to a stat/ability/save etc so the stacking rule doesn't apply.
There's nothing in the rules that prohibits you from getting two arcane bonds. If you want to quote a rule that'd be swell, as it stands I have two different class features providing an item each.
Once again the rules are permissive, not restrictive. There are a LOT of things the rules don't tell me I can't do, but I know better than to try them.
They don't say I can't make a 90 degree cut in mid jump, but I am sure I will never get to pull it off at anyone's table.
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Once again the rules are permissive, not restrictive. There are a LOT of things the rules don't tell me I can't do, but I know better than to try them.
They don't say I can't make a 90 degree cut in mid jump, but I am sure I will never get to pull it off at anyone's table.
I have two rules that both say I get an arcane bond.
You claim incorrectly that there is something that prevents what the rules provide permission for.
If they wanted you to have a choice they would have said you can have one ....... or two........
It's interesting that they provided text in regards to not having a familiar and arcane bond, but not excluding two familiars or two arcane bonds.
And while I agree that the intent may have been to cause stacking issues and prevent people from having two familiars, two arcane bonds etc, there's no language that raw prevents two bonds.
Wraithstrike, I'm really curious, do you have anything you can link to for this use of "permissive" to mean "only the things specifically permitted are allowed"? In every discussion of systems of rules I've had that wasn't the Pathfinder Rules Discussion forum, people have consistently used "permissive" to refer to a system of rules which permits anything not explicitly restricted.
No. That is just how they are worded. They tend to tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. That is why I said "permissive". If the book was to list every nuance of can and can not it would be too heavy to carry. It is easier to list what you can do since that is much smaller list to publish.
Once again the rules are permissive, not restrictive. There are a LOT of things the rules don't tell me I can't do, but I know better than to try them.
They don't say I can't make a 90 degree cut in mid jump, but I am sure I will never get to pull it off at anyone's table.
I have two rules that both say I get an arcane bond.
You claim incorrectly that there is something that prevents what the rules provide permission for.
If they wanted you to have a choice they would have said you can have one ....... or two........It's interesting that they provided text in regards to not having a familiar and arcane bond, but not excluding two familiars or two arcane bonds.
And while I agree that the intent may have been to cause stacking issues and prevent people from having two familiars, two arcane bonds etc, there's no language that raw prevents two bonds.
They don't catch everything. The existance of an FAQ proves that. I have also never seen a situation where they say A stacks with B and you still get an either/or option. If they allow it for arcane bonded items, it will be the first. Like I said, I don't think it is broken, but I dont think it is RAI either.
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Much like how a magus can't cast a spell from his magus slots with his wizard book....
Different thing, lantzkev. The procedure to learn and write a spell is the same, so I don't see why a magus with wizard levels would be unable to learn a spell at the same time for the two different classes and write it down only once. Naturally the spell should be a spell that is both a wizard and magus spell.
The feature is "spellbook", a item where you write down spells. Nothing force you to write spell of a single class in it.
Wraithstrike, I'm really curious, do you have anything you can link to for this use of "permissive" to mean "only the things specifically permitted are allowed"? In every discussion of systems of rules I've had that wasn't the Pathfinder Rules Discussion forum, people have consistently used "permissive" to refer to a system of rules which permits anything not explicitly restricted.No. That is just how they are worded. They tend to tell you what you can do, not what you can't do. That is why I said "permissive". If the book was to list every nuance of can and can not it would be too heavy to carry. It is easier to list what you can do since that is much smaller list to publish.No, I'm not asking why you think the rules are that kind of rule.
It's just that I've been going around asking people since I first saw this here, and I have met exactly one person who has ever seen the word "permissive" used that way.
Every other person says that a "permissive ruleset" is a ruleset which permits everything it does not explicitly prohibit.
You are using a term that I'm not familiar with, and that appears to contradict general usage, and I want to know whether this is a term of art from a specific field or something, because it's confusing the heck out of me.
Basically, I can't imagine a circumstance under which someone familiar with the English word "permissive" would think that a "permissive ruleset" was a set of rules in which nothing was allowed unless the rules explicitly said so. Except obviously a handful of people here do.
Poking around, I see that some people on wargame-related forums use "permissive" this way, but in a lot of other contexts, people use the term in precisely the opposite way (and, coincidentally, the way conversational English has normally used the term).
Seems to me that wraithstrike is using the correct definition of permissive.
per·mis·sive
adjective \pər-ˈmi-siv\
Full Definition of PERMISSIVE
1 archaic : granted on sufferance : tolerated
2a : granting or tending to grant permission : tolerant
b : deficient in firmness or control : indulgent, lax
The rules are permissive in that they grant you permission to do the things outlined. Not explicitly restricted does not equal permitted either. As the old argument goes, there's no rule that says you can't take actions when you're dead either.
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exactly.
You have two abilities that grant you an arcane bond, that do not state they cannot work together, or that by taking both you only get one arcane bond...
hence you have permission for two bonds, and there is no restriction except that you can't get a familiar and arcane bond at the same time.
Wizards and Sorcerers both have a class feature called Spells. Everything described under Spells class feature applies to itself. A multiclass Wizard/Sorcerer/Cleric/Bard/Oracle would have 5 distinct and unique "Spells" abilities. The rules governing how each one works laid out in detail in their respective class sections, each operating independently of any other.
In short, you cannot cast your wizard spells with sorc slots. They do not interact.
Remy that was never a serious question anyone had, there's FAQs and other things around that indicate what you said is true, the original poster asked as an aside to prove an completely unrelated point.
you never did answer the question though...if you agree that you cannot use a wizard spell with a sorcerer spell slot, why would you be able to use a wizard spell in an arcane bond item that is clearly using an "extra" sorcerer spell slot?
Remy that was never a serious question anyone had, there's FAQs and other things around that indicate what you said is true, the original poster asked as an aside to prove an completely unrelated point.you never did answer the question though...if you agree that you cannot use a wizard spell with a sorcerer spell slot, why would you be able to use a wizard spell in an arcane bond item that is clearly using an "extra" sorcerer spell slot?
Oh is that the question? You phrased the original post in a very confusing manner if that was the question...
Ah okay, after brushing up on the relevant abilities...
The Arcane Bond - Item allows you to cast any spell in your spellbook once per day. It has nothing to do with sorcerers or sorcerer spell slots; even if that seems a little similar to how a sorcerer might typically cast their spells.
It is simply an ability that Wizards can get that allows them to, without preparation; cast any spell in their book.
and the sorc version just simply states "any spell known"
I've asked this question in the other thread, and to this no one has answered....
IF say a lvl 20 oracle has an arcane bond through eldritch heritage... Does the arcane bond let them cast a spell known from their oracle spells.
Yes, Oracles have spells known, an can cast any one of them with this Arcane Bond - Item ability once per day. (if they have the feat for this, yes absolutely)
A multiclass Bard/Oracle/Summoner who took Arcane Heritage - Arcane and selected a bond with an item could freely choose to use this once a day power to cast any spell he knew, from any of his classes.
That comment is at odds with the theory that the spells known refers specifically to the sorcerer spells known.
(I don't disagree with your stance) But there's no difference functionally in this situation between spells known of an oracle and spells known of a wizard.
Spells Known in this case specifically refers to spells known of any class. The ability does not say "sorcerer spells known" it just says "spells known".
Arcane Bond from the Arcane bloodline is a separate ability from Spells, and while it interacts with elements of the Spells ability, it doesn't specify which class' Spells Known entry, so any of them could be valid, so long as they contain a Spells Known reference.
As far s I am aware, a Wizard lacks a Spells Known list from which this ability could draw from.
Compare the language here. While a wizard may know, learn, prepare etc... he is devoid actual "Spells Known".
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.
Notice how they even capitalize the S and K? That is a hint that something distinct is being discussed.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier.
or even
A wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting 8 hours of sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
I know the wording between the spontaneous and prepared casters can sometimes overlap, but 'Spells Known' is almost exclusively a game term used in reference to the spontaneous casters.
But... if you have Spells Known from Bard, and Spells Known from Oracle... and pick up a bonded item from the arcane bloodline, you could use it to cast any of your Spells Known, and from any class list which has Spells Known.
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A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook,So a wizard does have spells known and can have spells it knows that are not in it's spellbook.
This can be important for certain spells, like secret page:
The text of a spell can be changed to show another spell of equal or lower level known by the caster.
Know spells and the class feature "Spells Known" are two different things.
This was what I was getting at. A sorcerers or any other spontaneous caster for that matter that has an arcane bond cannot cast a wizard spell spontaneously from that bonded object because it is not defined as a "spells known" spell.
So arcane bond in the arcane bloodline says this on the prd:
Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook)..
((I assume the 'our' is a typo and should be your))
Does "spells known" refer to the class feature "Spells Known" or to spells you know?
Spells Known feature, game term, ability of spontaneous casters.
Spontaneous casters have little charts that go with their class descriptions that detail their [Spells Known]. Their [Spells] entry explains how it works.
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Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master's level.
Since that advent of 3rd ed, a multi-class sorcerer wizard could not have two familiars, only one whose stats reflected the total levels in those classes.
In PF, they altered 'familiar' to a sub-choice of 'Arcane Bond'. The stacking of familiar levels still applies, you may not have more than one, the Bonded Item is the same ability (Arcane Bond), so I must conclude that if a character has Arcane Bond/Bonded Item from two different sources, then the abilities of the item stack, and you cannot have more than one bonded item.
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So arcane bond in the arcane bloodline says this on the prd:
Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook)..
((I assume the 'our' is a typo and should be your))
Does "spells known" refer to the class feature "Spells Known" or to spells you know?
A general rule of Pathfinder is that when an ability is part of a class the relevant rules are written as if you were a single class member of that class. So when, in the arcane bloodline Arcane Bond ability, it say Spell Know it refer to the Spell Know feature of the sorcerer class.
If you have the Arcane bond ability from the Arcane bloodline you can apply it only to the sorcerer class.
It become more muddled when you get it from the Eldritch Heritage feat, as it is not necessary at all to be a member of a specific class to get it.
The text of the Arcane bond ability, when removed from the context of the sorcerer class will allow you to cast any know spell, but it is still pointing to a Know spell feature of a class, not to the spells know to a wizard/witch/magus because he has recorded then in his spellbook.
That feature is the spellbook feature.
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The text of the Arcane bond ability, when removed from the context of the sorcerer class will allow you to cast any know spell, but it is still pointing to a Know spell feature of a class, not to the spells know to a wizard/witch/magus because he has recorded then in his spellbook.
What you just did there is not part of the rules, you get it as if you were a sorcerer of your lvl -2.
You just created a rule out of thin air to make it give a benefit that you argue doesn't exist.
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The text of the Arcane bond ability, when removed from the context of the sorcerer class will allow you to cast any know spell, but it is still pointing to a Know spell feature of a class, not to the spells know to a wizard/witch/magus because he has recorded then in his spellbook.What you just did there is not part of the rules, you get it as if you were a sorcerer of your lvl -2.
You just created a rule out of thin air to make it give a benefit that you argue doesn't exist.
Read the whole text:
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have.
So far, no problem.
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline.
You select the Arcane bloodline. See below
For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer.
It give the level at which your power work.
You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
Again, no problem.
So, now you have the arcane bond ability that work as if you were a sorcerer two level lower than your character level.
Arcane Bond (Su): At 1st level, you gain an arcane bond, as a wizard equal to your sorcerer level. Your sorcerer levels stack with any wizard levels you possess when determining the powers of your familiar or bonded object. This ability does not allow you to have both a familiar and a bonded item.
You take the familiar ability? No problem, it work at your Cahracter level -2.
You take the bonded item ability? here is the text on how it work.Once per day, your bond item allows you to cast any one of our spells known (unlike a wizard's bonded item, which allows him to cast any one spell in his spellbook).
To which class spell know feature it point? Not necessarily to the sorcerer class, as you can take this ability even if you aren't a sorcerer. It point to your character spell know feature.
At most you can say that it is limited to the class feature of the class in which you have taken a level when taking the feat.|
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Interesting, so that means other (spontaneous) casters can't benefit from it by a strict reading of the rules?A general rule of Pathfinder is that when an ability is part of a class the relevant rules are written as if you were a single class member of that class. So when, in the arcane bloodline Arcane Bond ability, it say Spell Know it refer to the Spell Know feature of the sorcerer class.
If you have the Arcane bond ability from the Arcane bloodline you can apply it only to the sorcerer class.
With eldritch heritage it become muddy. Read the post above yours.