Is maintaining a grapple a combat maneuver?

[Markov Spiked Chain]

This is the snippet on maintaining a grapple form the SRD:

Quote:

If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold.

Does this count as a combat maneuver?

Specifically, can a Monk(Maneuver Master) who has an opponent grappled at the start of his turn use the Full Attack action to both maintain the grapple (as their additional combat maneuver, which may take a standard cation to perform) and make a full set of attacks with appropriate weapons/unarmed strikes?

Quote:

Flurry of Maneuvers (Ex)

At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry.

Could I trip someone, use Binding Throw to grapple, then Maneuver Master to Pin, in the same Full Attack?

I'm thinking about a Magus/Maneuver Master/Order of the Penitent Cavalier.

[Ckorik]

Flurry (full round action)
first attack trip (if it succeeds) ki throw
swift action grapple (if it succeeds)
second attack grapple - pin (as part of maneuver master)

Yes.

Remember to use all the bonuses and such to each type of movement.

Assuming a flurry of (lets say) +7/+7/+2/+2

Trip would be CMB
1st Grapple would be CMB

Now you are grappled - you get a +5 on the check to maintain the grapple - and take a -2 on your attacks (except those made to keep the grapple)

Second attack is replaced by the grapple so it would be CMB+5

Assuming it works your target is pinned.

You still have two attacks - those are made at -2

So your last two attacks are +0/+0 (still better off on *most* creatures as they loose their dex bonus to AC and a -4 armor class).

[Moondragon Starshadow]

GRAPPLE FLOW CHART ANSWERS MOST QUESTIONS

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Unfortunately, the flowchart doesn't help here. It doesn't even seem to include the "maintain a grapple" action or starting point, or any of the followups (Pin, Move, Damage, Tie up.) :(

What I'm not sure of is whether "maintain a grapple" is a combat maneuver. Ckorik and I think so, but I was hoping there was more clarity. It's in the Combat Maneuvers section, takes a standard action, and uses a Combat Maneuver check.

I'm assuming it's a duck.

[Ckorik]

Page 2 of the chart (I use the chart - it's the awesomesauce).

A grapple check is *always* a combat maneuver.

You'll see page 2 - option 3 'maintain the grapple' - it's a CMB grapple check - what you are trying to do is similar to many variation of what people do with the maneuver master archtype - it's one of the very few ways to use grapple and full attack.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Well, in both Maintaining a Grapple and Performing a Grapple, both involve a Combat Maneuver check being made at a target's CMD. It's safe to say that since they both involve the same type of check, they both fall under the same category of ability.

Although many have correlated that, for example, Attacks are Combat Maneuvers, and Combat Maneuvers are Attacks, they are different in the result they produce. Yes, both use Attack Rolls to determine success or failure/hit or miss, but the results (i.e. the "success/failure" and "hit/miss" subjects) are classified differently, ergo they are different subjects. (They're also referred to as different subjects in the book!)

In this instance, however, the result of both subjects is exactly the same: the target becomes Grappled, receiving the condition. Maintaining the Grapple simply allows you to keep the Grappled condition on both you and your opponent (until you get so pro that you can choose not to become affected by it).

As a friendly suggestion, when you run into creatures that have access to Freedom of Movement, you might want to try a different method of engagement...

[blahpers]

Markov Spiked Chain wrote:

Unfortunately, the flowchart doesn't help here. It doesn't even seem to include the "maintain a grapple" action or starting point, or any of the followups (Pin, Move, Damage, Tie up.) :(

It isn't terribly clear looking at the page, but the flow chart is two images. The second one covers maintaining the grapple and the various subsequent options.

Quote:

What I'm not sure of is whether "maintain a grapple" is a combat maneuver. Ckorik and I think so, but I was hoping there was more clarity. It's in the Combat Maneuvers section, takes a standard action, and uses a Combat Maneuver check.

I'm assuming it's a duck.

It's unclear.

[shiiktan]

I would vote that it's not a grapple - it uses grapple rules to resolve, yes - but it's specifically intended to represent maintaining your hold on the target in subsequent rounds.

I doubt flurry of maneuvers was intended to let a character bypass the round restriction on subduing their opponent. Only after you've managed to keep them under control for that one round, can you progress to a pin.

Just how I'd play it though.

[Markov Spiked Chain]

Ah, cool. I'm seeing the second page now, that helps! Although my reading of "Tie Up" is that you still have to make a Grapple Check even on a Pinned/Helpless target, which isn't really clear from the flowchart.

It sounds like no one thinks "maintain a grapple" *isn't* a combat maneuver, which is promising. I'll flesh out the rest of the build then. :)

[Ckorik]

I'll apologize I think I was wrong - this was hashed out some time ago here:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nub1?Maneuver-master-monk-with-greater-grapple

In essence - you never have to roll to maintain on the first round of a grapple - regardless of your other attacks - and you have to use a standard (or move with greater grapple) on second/third/etc. rounds so no full attacks (or FoB) on those.

After reading through that thread it makes a solid case for the entire thing.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

shiiktan wrote:

I would vote that it's not a grapple - it uses grapple rules to resolve, yes - but it's specifically intended to represent maintaining your hold on the target in subsequent rounds.

I doubt flurry of maneuvers was intended to let a character bypass the round restriction on subduing their opponent. Only after you've managed to keep them under control for that one round, can you progress to a pin.

Just how I'd play it though.

They both use Grapple Rules, and at the end of the roll, the result is either Success, in which case both creatures receive the Grappled condition until the Grapple is broke, or Failure, in which case nothing happens, and if the creature was previously in a Grapple with another creature, that Grapple breaks.

Are there some slight differences? Yes. But these differences are a result of whether or not the initial Grapple (as well as the followups) were a Success, or a Failure, as well as whatever actions the other creature takes while Grappled. They otherwise in no way differ in function and resolution.

Not intended? That makes no sense to be quite honest. In real life, there are several people (primarily, Police Officers) who are so skilled at pinning down enemies/threats that they can do it in a matter of seconds. The fact we're saying fantasy humans/humanoids/non-humans/whatever aren't capable of (if not superior to) that same level is highly illogical.