Interesting. Most of the people I've been speaking to on the subject put a master summoner a full tier above their default counterpart (and like two or three tiers above weaker summoner archetypes). Even the ones who have a rather conservative view of summoner power. Sure, you don't get your one pet that's a better fighter than a fighter (to be fair, fighters are terrible and shouldn't exist in the first place), but you do get like, twenty pets that are all almost as strong.I actually think the master summoner is better balanced power-wise than the base summoner.
-No crazy eidolon being as good or better at melee than barbarians and paladins.
-A really neat trick that allows you to keep up with fullcasters
The caveat is that you have to play a master summoner responsibly. You want to have 1 minute turns.
Also what I like about master summoner is that it is actually focused on summoning as opposed to forging 1 stupid strong mob and then trying to cast spells like a wizard.
Master summoners are basically fullcasters and many people are of the opinion that full caster > everything else.
Me, I see the master summoner as the class that gives the party mooks. Useful mooks, but mooks none the less.
1. Many players get the rules on them wrong.
2. They are very easy to optimize.
That leads to problems at many tables.
I have always wanted something like the summoner but I do think it would have been better if it worked similar to the Astral Contructs(psionics). With those you were limited to options from certain menus and at the same time there was some room to be unique.
I originally thought "Hey build your own monster, this could be fun!" But that quickly turned to "Holy cow this thing can get crazy powerful relatively quickly." Finally my group just went with the idea that the character is a class feature of the eidolon. We don't allow it at our tables because it takes far too long to take your turn, and certain abilities aside, it is just too complicated (even for the vets).
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Warning: Rant ahead
There are quite a few reasons, but for me it's mostly balance concerns. Summoners are easily the easiest class to break, and outside of extreme optimization, they're by far the most powerful class in the game.
They get two actions per round, combining an eidolon that's just about as powerful as any other frontliner due to its absurd number of natural attacks with half-casting that actually gets a lot of spells earlier than a wizard would. And not mediocre ones either, like the bard and inquisitor get early, but spells like Haste, Stoneskin, and Teleport.
And then if one of them gets picked on, they can transfer hp between them, and use extra class features to switch locations as a full-attack enabler. Not that it's necessary if you gave your eidolon pounce.
But even without the eidolon they're extremely good. Summon Monster X a very large number of times per day (to compare, a conjuration wizard would have less high-level summons if they filled their highest spell level with nothing but summons), except as a SLA (doesn't provoke, and no verbal component), as a standard action, and with ten times the duration.
And then just as a big middle finger to primary casters, despite being utterly reliant on summoned creatures to do their bidding, they go ahead and get medium BAB and d8 hit dice. Why?! It's not even a huge balance change, it just feels ridiculous that anyone thought they would need it.
(This isn't even getting into stuff like turns taking forever, and messing up CL's/price for various crafted goods. Those are separate headaches)
Pretty sure SLAs generate AOOs.
Pretty sure SLAs generate AOOs.
They do provoke. :)
I've got a crazy idea, if you want to make your players hate the summoner even more, have them fight a whole guild of summoners.
Ha... ha... ha.
Be sure to get a bit drunk before-hand so you aren't sent insane with all the numbers and tracking the summons.
Warning: Rant ahead
There are quite a few reasons, but for me it's mostly balance concerns. Summoners are easily the easiest class to break, and outside of extreme optimization, they're by far the most powerful class in the game.
They get two actions per round, combining an eidolon that's just about as powerful as any other frontliner due to its absurd number of natural attacks with half-casting that actually gets a lot of spells earlier than a wizard would. And not mediocre ones either, like the bard and inquisitor get early, but spells like Haste, Stoneskin, and Teleport.
And then if one of them gets picked on, they can transfer hp between them, and use extra class features to switch locations as a full-attack enabler. Not that it's necessary if you gave your eidolon pounce.
But even without the eidolon they're extremely good. Summon Monster X a very large number of times per day (to compare, a conjuration wizard would have less high-level summons if they filled their highest spell level with nothing but summons), except as a SLA (doesn't provoke, and no verbal component), as a standard action, and with ten times the duration.
And then just as a big middle finger to primary casters, despite being utterly reliant on summoned creatures to do their bidding, they go ahead and get medium BAB and d8 hit dice. Why?! It's not even a huge balance change, it just feels ridiculous that anyone thought they would need it.
(This isn't even getting into stuff like turns taking forever, and messing up CL's/price for various crafted goods. Those are separate headaches)
Yes, they are ridiculously op. Even without the Eidolon they are a very strong class, with it, well it becomes a bit silly.
In 3.5 there was a prestige class spellcaster, bonded summoner I think that meant you got your very own elemental and they improved quickly, but your character pretty much stagnated and you got your spells really slowly. The elemental though, was very cool and the prestige class was balanced. The summoner doesn't come close to being balanced its a case of more more more.
Me, I see the master summoner as the class that gives the party mooks. Useful mooks, but mooks none the less.
I've never been too impressed by summons besides seeing the potential utility in summoning multiple creatures with decent SLAs to rain down on the enemy once you start hitting mid-high levels. Besides that they always seemed too weak compared to what your PC should be fighting to actually be anything other than meat shields, but then again that does mean actions not spent on attack you.
I actually love Synthesist. The concept is so incredibly cool to me, though I consider it weaker than the base Summoner. Losing action economy hurts quite a bit.
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I've got a crazy idea, if you want to make your players hate the summoner even more, have them fight a whole guild of summoners.
Ha... ha... ha.
Be sure to get a bit drunk before-hand so you aren't sent insane with all the numbers and tracking the summons.
Already did that; Age of Worms, 'The Champions Belt'.
Changed one of the lacklustre teams for four pygmies from the Isle of Dread, all brothers, with synergistic spells known.
The PCs did get to see them compete in the early rounds, but had no idea what they were (making it 'foreign magic' allowed for that).
It was a tough battle, but no-one died (neither side wanted to kill the other, just progress through the competition), and the summoners gave aid to the PCs later, to investigate the BBEG.
Personally, I have no problems with the summoner. As a player/GM who only dabbles in the lightest amount of optimization (and even then only rarely), it works out quite well. I wouldn't let anyone play it who enjoyed optimization though, because it's potential is far and beyond the 'norm'. I might allow it under those circumstances with the 'new' advanced classes coming out, but that remains to be seen.
But a flavor-style eidolon instead of a spreadsheet-made combat monster can be an excellent character without robbing the other players at the table of their fun. I guess it comes down to the old standby rule: know your players.
...which would make it darn difficult for PFS, and probably lends to why its so heavily restricted.
People hate the Summoner because...
1. They believe all the "OMG!" rubbish thrown around about them.
2. They can encourage stat dumping (synthesit...)
3. People make "mistakes" building the Eidolon causing the "OMG, so OP!"
4. Some players instead of printing from bestiaries their favourite summons they waste time flicking through various books.
5. Some players waste time rolling a d20 five separate times instead of rolling 5 xd20 colour coded to critters attacks. Along with damage dice.
6. Some players just don't read and understand what the class really does. Can be a fair deviation from the RAW.
Honestly all the above can be applied to multiple classes but people don't because they gotta hate something!
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My biggest problem with the summoner is actually their spells. Not sure who it was that designed the summoner but I will merely say that I am very sorry for their mistakes. The 6 level casting means nothing since they get tons of high level spells discounted to those lower levels anyway, most of which don't allow/need saving throw DCs (bards for example suffer from lower save DCs on their early-access spells, but summon monster VIII in a 6th level form is just pure power increase). They have a 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, armor proficiencies, and great buffing power and can share HP with their eidolon (and at 14th level you can't kill the summoner with HP damage without killing the eidolon first).
They are supposedly summoning specialists but they get most of the best stuff from every arcane school save for evocation and necromancy (and they even get some of the best necromancy spells like magic jar), some of which come earlier than available to the real specialists of those schools and consistently at discounted levels (which makes them even better). They even get mega powerhouse spells like magic jar, simulacrum, greater invisibility, greater heroism, overland flight and spell turning (using spell turning on your eidolon is cute). Also simulacrum + magic jar makes you a scary fellow, especially when your HD/BAB is pretty solid too boot.
Seriously, summoners WRECK things. And they wreck them hard. A competent player can make a summoner without an eidolon look too strong, but the eidolon allows them to be a one-man party, especially when you toss their access to wands and scrolls, affinity for item creation, and spell shenanigans (being able to pork out spells like dazing black tentacles, dazing wall of fire, dazing fire shield, or maximized summoner monster IV with a lesser metamagic rod is nasty).
They get their skill points + their eidolon's skill points, which allows them an incredibly versatile skill pool to draw from. Eidolons also have a cheap 1-point evolution that grants a +8 racial bonus on a skill to boot, which makes it really easy to buff skills to high values (you can choose 4 class skills to be class skills, plus Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Perception (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Stealth (Dex)). With lesser evolution surge you can grant the bonus to the skill you need on demand without ever actually needing to even devote a few points to your eidolon's real evolution points.
They come with a formidable and expendable minion. An eidolon pushing daisies is barely a blip on the radar compared to the troubles of a PC dying, and they have super cheap and mega-effective ways to just recycling them back into the fray. At low levels a wand of lesser rejuvenate eidolon is more efficient than a wand of cure light wounds. Your eidolon die? Screw it, cast summon eidolon and your eidolon returns in the same battle full-powered with a +4 to Str and Con from Augment Summoning to boot. It can even be quickened with a lesser rod which means that your eidolon can bite the big one, then on your turn it immediately returns to the fray at full power + buffs and you still have a standard and move action left to full-attack, buff, or throw out more spells.
With Transmogrify you can swap the entire focus of your eidolon depending on the needs of your current adventure, or Purified Calling allowing you to fully resurrect your slain eidolon with a minute between dangers.
Summoners can fight as well as bards can sans Inspire Courage (but hey you have either a vicious eidolon or an army of summoned monsters), which is to say pretty well. In addition to their 3/4 BAB, they have great buffs like haste, greater heroism, and a wide variety of transmutation spells that can push their combat ability higher and higher. They can actually surpass bards in combat at higher levels when magic jar and simulacrum comes online and they start using proxy-bodies with exceptional ability scores (solar bodies are pretty nice as they have a powerful DR, +19 natural armor, a difficult to bypass Regeneration, and Str 28, Dex 20, and Con 30, while also being humanoid and more than capable of wearing magic items and casting spells). For extra oomph, the Arcane Strike feat allows them to pump an extra +1-5 damage onto all their attacks.
None of this even relies on any special builds or races (but can be made better). It's not even hard. You pick a few staple spells, stock up on some random scrolls and/or wands, grab some item creation feats, and let the facerolling commence.
You'll notice I haven't actually mentioned how strong an eidolon can legally be. Mostly focusing entirely on what the summoner itself can do with spells and its chassis.
Honestly I really wouldn't mind the summoner if the spell list was shaved hard and it turned into a 9-level casting class with a d6 and 1/2 BAB.
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Summoners brokenness stems from the ability to at will modify the eidolon on the fly using the aspect spells. Infinite versatility in movement perception and damage mitigation. Unlike other races/classes which have fixed spells or abilities.
Then the eidolon is a throw away PC. Once its gone you pull out whatever monster you like for the situation at hand.
Then your spell list has all the improvements necessary. Cast by an armored caster. Where is the weakness?
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I actually like the Summoner class a lot.
But as a DM, a summoner in the group means I'm gonna have to be extra careful about certain things - more than with any other character class - and that can be tiresome.
1- Eilodon rules require that you master the rules rather well. Most abusive eilodon builds I see on these boards happen because of extrapolated or misread rules. As a DM I must know my stuff, but it annoys me to play the administrative lawyer.
2- Summoner is bit of a spotlight hogger. That is also true with most summoning-oriented or pet characters like the druid or conjurer, but that's especially problematic with the summoner because he has few tools to do anything else.
3- Summoner has a lot of disposable/expandable resources, meaning that it can take a lot more risks than most without real repercussions.
With the right player, the summoner can be a lot of fun but it suffers from the "but imagine if it falls in the wrong hands!" syndrome, and that turns many players/DMs off.
With the right player, the summoner can be a lot of fun but it suffers from the "but imagine if it falls in the wrong hands!" syndrome, and that turns many players/DMs off.
I imagine the Summoner would be "less reviled" if it were easy to be that "right player," but as the class is, it takes a lot of experience to be that player, to not be overpowered with a Summoner.
And that's not a good thing.
-Matt
With the right player, the summoner can be a lot of fun but it suffers from the "but imagine if it falls in the wrong hands!" syndrome, and that turns many players/DMs off.I imagine the Summoner would be "less reviled" if it were easy to be that "right player," but as the class is, it takes a lot of experience to be that player, to not be overpowered with a Summoner.
-Matt
As a DM, I don't care so much about overpowered PCs. I care about the O-P player being a prick about it, or about the other players feeling cheated.
In my experience (which has been blissfully good, I admit), a good player can make the game fun for everyone even if the PCs are not perfectly balanced.
[edit] That being said, I'm not in disagreement with your statement; the "wrong hands" don't even have to be that bad to ruin the summoner experience.
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I was wondering if anyone had any insight as to why the class is so universally reviled.
I played alongside a master summoner for some time and it was annoying to have one player get so many actions each turn vs your single one. And some fihghts got trivialized by being swarmed with summons.
...I found a wealth of comments along the lines of... "If FATAL was a class, it would be the summoner"...Oh, my God. No class deserves that comparison.
I'm sure if someone worked really really hard they could make one that did.
Everyone keeps mentioning how the Edielons are built wrong, and the rules are difficult - I never found to bet that hard, and now I question myself that I am doing it right.
What is the biggest rulebreak/wrong that happens in summoner builds?
Summoners brokenness stems from the ability to at will modify the eidolon on the fly using the aspect spells.I'm understanding why they're strong. What always struck me as curious was why they tend to get more flak than other classes of comparable power or even moreso than the characters that outperform them.
Interesting stuff so far though.
There aren't any classes that outperform them. You're completely ignoring all the posts that specifically point out all the reasons Summoners are ridiculous. Yet you act like the case is closed when the Summoners-are-fine crowd's arguments basically amount to "nuh uh!".
Read Ashiel's post and just try to demonstrate how his arguments are wrong, specifically. I'll be waiting (but not holding my breath).
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they are op because people say they are... not because they are in reality.
The fact is most do not play summoners correctly
GMs don't know how to deal with them
My biggest complaint with summoners is not with the class but with summoned creatures... I hate when the game gets bogged down with rolling and/or looking up stats. To prevent that folks have to be prepared and have to roll everything all at once. Which few do (summoner or not)
they are op because people say they are... not because they are in reality.
"Nuh uh!"
Give me specific reasons and comparisons to other classes showing how they aren't actually overpowered.
Substance, not empty denials.
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I could say the exact opposite, prove to me they are op... to which I'll shoot holes in your individual specifics etc.
Anti-magic field, summoned creature can't enter it... any martial class is now op in comparison.
Opponent has banishment/bite the hand/dominate monster/etc
Opponent just kills the summoner and ignores the eidolon.
Opponent teleports the Eidolon or the summoner away... Eidolon dies due to distance apart.
Paladin has higher dmg and higher resists and higher ac than eidolon.
Gunslinger out performs eidolon.
Fighter out performs eidolon
Wizard out performs summoner at battlefield control.
My favorite argument a page back was that "B-but they're better than conjurers at summoning!"
You know who is also better at summoning than the conjurer wizard? A cleric with Sacred Summons and the appropriate Summon Aligned Monster feat.
Conjurer is actually one of the weakest summoners in the game.
Huh, I thought SLAs did not provoke. Thanks for letting me know!
Feels weird calling it a "big middle finger" to primary casters when every primary caster is both significantly strong and significantly more versatile than the Summoner with the possible exception of the Druid (and even that only on the first ategory).
And then just as a big middle finger to primary casters, despite being utterly reliant on summoned creatures to do their bidding, they go ahead and get medium BAB and d8 hit dice. Why?! It's not even a huge balance change, it just feels ridiculous that anyone thought they would need it.
I maintain my stance that except in extremely high levels of optimization, the summoner is more powerful than any primary caster, being able to fill both the high damage roll, and the casting support role simultaneously, getting two actions a round to do both. Their access to spells also increases immensely if they start using their summon monsters to get their summons to cast spells not on their list.
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I could say the exact opposite, prove to me they are op... to which I'll shoot holes in your individual specifics etc.
Anti-magic field, summoned creature can't enter it... any martial class is now op in comparison.
Opponent has banishment/bite the hand/dominate monster/etc
Opponent just kills the summoner and ignores the eidolon.
Opponent teleports the Eidolon or the summoner away... Eidolon dies due to distance apart.
Paladin has higher dmg and higher resists and higher ac than eidolon.
Gunslinger out performs eidolon.
Fighter out performs eidolon
Wizard out performs summoner at battlefield control.
The fact that you are comparing the entire classes with one class feature of the Summoner is telling.
Who are these mysterious "opponents" and how are they handwaving "just killing" a D8 hit-die class that can cast stoneskin and comes with a hard hitting meat shield as a class feature?
One of the Wizards favourite battlefield control tactics is... You guessed it, flooding the battlefield with summons!
Your examples are terrible.
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The fact that you are comparing the entire classes with one class feature of the Summoner is telling.
You mean the summoner does anything that matters outside of summoning?
Like what, buffing? very incredibly minor dmg/control?
Who are these mysterious "opponents" and how are they handwaving "just killing" a D8 hit-die class that can cast stoneskin and comes with a hard hitting meat shield as a class feature?
Pretty much any melee/ranged/caster badguy. Any opponent with any intellect and any remote knowledge of summoners know that you get rid of the summoner, the eidolon/summoner goes away. It's why feats like resilient eidolon exist!
throwing stoneskin into the equation like you keep it up all the time is always a bit silly, dr 10 is kewl and all but at 250 a pop for 70minutes (at the earliest lvl you get it) is not something most people do alot of.
Pretty much any melee/ranged/caster badguy. Any opponent with any intellect and any remote knowledge of summoners know that you get rid of the summoner, the eidolon/summoner goes away. It's why feats like resilient eidolon exist!
It is more like you are just handwaving things. If hte opponet can just kill the summoner then they probably can just kill other arcane casters.
Opponent teleports the Eidolon or the summoner away... Eidolon dies due to distance apart.
It is not like hte summoner is defenseless without the eidolon.
Paladin has higher dmg and higher resists and higher ac than eidolon.
THe paladin probably have better DPR when smithing, not sure without smiting, not sure the AC thing too. The eidolon have pounce by the way. Do the paladin outperform the eidolon and the summoner at the same time?
Gunslinger out performs eidolon.
Do they outperform both the summoner and the eidolon at the same time?
Fighter out performs eidolon
Do the outperform both the summoner and the eidolon at the same time?
I hate summoners because a summoner killed my parents.
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And if you are pulling the Banishment card, or any other spell to nullify the eidolon, well fighters aren't so hot after a Mage's Disjunction either, or in an antimagic field.
Worst comparison I have ever heard in my life. Fighters are one of the most effective classes within an antimagic field.
Now to go back to something I said earlier. In normal play, well Summoners and especially Master Summoners do better than wizards. IF they know that summon list well.
When you don't factor the eidolon in, summoners are just plain weaker, specifically the higher level you get. If you're unsure why, let me explain a spell called Protection from [evil/good/law/chaos/etc]
When you mention pounce, you're talking about an ediolon with a weak will save. guess what gets charmed and turned back on you?
Yeah, other than the Wizard having contingencies and better teleportation and more options in basically every other category.
At every level of the game I suppose.
At every level of the game I suppose.I find this rather amusing. Someone complains about high end evolutions and 5th and 6th level summoner spells, so in turn when I bring up equally high level Wizard tricks suddenly it's "B-but that's only high level!".
I do not think that anyone have said htat summoner issues are only at highger levels. And the summoner is just a full caster in disguise for that matter.
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You mean they're better at the one specific niche their class was designed for than the generalist class that does everything that the summoner does and thensome?
How odd.
No I mean exactly what I said, that they are better conjurers... as in someone that conjurers...
There's no one better at conjuration than a summoner... They have an aspect of conjuration no one else has (eidolons)
There's nothing odd about them being better at conjurering than anyone else is.