why character powers don't have names


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

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I didn't want to disrupt the critically important snapshot thread, but I saw a comment that I wanted to address.

coriolis wrote:
One suggestion I would have for the next version of the game: give a name to all the character powers. In the first few adventures, it helps with remembering to use them. For example, at the end of each of my turn, I would say aloud "OK, I'm scouting" when looking at the top card of my location. If I forgot, one of my teammates would remind me.

If this were a game completely unconnected to the Pathfinder RPG, we might do that. But it is connected to the RPG, and that creates fossilized rule presumptions. Fossilization is a concept my developers are quite used to hearing me describe.* It's about bringing incorrect presumptions from an old space into a new space, and it can be quite hard to shake. RPG players do this all the time with PACG, wondering why Caltrops can affect skeletons even though they don't have flesh on their feet, and why Harsk can shoot a crossbow bolt from the Mountain Peak into the Deeper Dungeons. The answer, of course, is "because they can."

Naming the powers as they are named in the RPG would be tantamount to saying, "Please bring everything you know about the RPG into your understanding of how the card game works." If I define Merisiel's bonus die power as "Sneak Attack," then an RPG veteran will wonder why she gets that bonus when alone, when in the RPG she can effectively sneak attack while flanking with another character. The real reason Meri gets that bonus when alone and not with others is "because she does." That's how her character is balanced. Giving you reasons to fight against that even when you don't want to isn't in the game's best interest, or yours.

Naming the powers in ways other than they are named in the RPG would be even worse. Let's say I named Meri's power "Solo Strike." And I named every one of her role card powers something else not from the RPG. Now you look at the rogue and you say, "Well, that's nice, but it's not a rogue." That's the exact opposite of what we want. We want you to be immersed in the world, but not fight against it based on what you know.

So we split the difference. By not naming the powers, you can superimpose what you want on the character without getting too hung up on the details.

Plus, Vic would kill me if I added a whole bunch of words to the character cards.

Mike

*Not coincidentally because of who named the concept.


This is pretty interesting to me. A pretty good read and a little insight into the developers minds. I guess I can see both sides of the coin. It does become complicated for people who come from the RPG. I don't, so I would not have an issue with any of the powers having names. It is a little annoying having to say, 'I used the power which let's me...', instead of just saying I use Sneak Attack, and then adding the dice to your roll.


Erixian wrote:
This is pretty interesting to me. A pretty good read and a little insight into the developers minds. I guess I can see both sides of the coin. It does become complicated for people who come from the RPG. I don't, so I would not have an issue with any of the powers having names. It is a little annoying having to say, 'I used the power which let's me...', instead of just saying I use Sneak Attack, and then adding the dice to your roll.

I give them nicknames. For example Lini's (has everyone caught on that she's my favorite yet?) abilities are "d4 ability" and "Turn into a bear."


Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people use "nicknames" to refer to them. I call Merisiel's power "Sneak Attack" and Lini's "Turn into a bear" and "Animal ally" and Amiri has "rage". Some of them don't really need "nicknames". If I'm Valeros, I just recharge his weapon. If I'm Harsk, I just say "I'll add a d4 to that."

Mike: So Larry Selinker is your father I'm assuming? I'm sure the growing number of ESL teachers can recognize his other concept: interlanguage. Now I understand a bit more why terminology is so important to you and why you think about games in the way that you do.


Mike Selinker wrote:
If this were a game completely unconnected to the Pathfinder RPG, we might do that. But it is connected to the RPG, and that creates fossilized rule presumptions. Fossilization is a concept my developers are quite used to hearing me describe.* It's about bringing incorrect presumptions from an old space into a new space, and it can be quite hard to shake. RPG players do this all the time with PACG, wondering why Caltrops can affect skeletons even though they don't have flesh on their feet, and why Harsk can shoot a crossbow bolt from the Mountain Peak into the Deeper Dungeons. The answer, of course, is "because they can."

My overactive mind still probably creates these connections anyway, but it makes sense. We have this same problem in software development where a remake of a project will carry assumptions that don't necessarily work in the new space due to different requirements/environment, etc.

I learnt the PACG first (then played the RPG so thanks guys) but I'm pretty good at isolating assumptions from other environments when I need to and unlearn things that aren't applicable. But on the other hand, I still like making the connection.


It's a shame that human nature tends to make such assumptions. Because naming the powers of the PACG characters would be very nice. I have plenty of RPG experience, but no Pathfinder RPG. But I also have the mindset that allows me to separate one thing from another, even if they are related at some level. Too bad not everyone can do that.

I have one friend, who despite playing for a few months now, just cannot comprehend his character's (Harsk) power to recharge a card, ANY card, to assist with a d4+x to combat at any other location. I'll tell him to "shoot an arrow/bolt", and he'll assume I'm asking him to discard one of his weapons to get that weapon's power. I'll try to clarify by pointing to his character sheet and saying "no, your character's power which is independent of your weapons and you only have to recharge ANY card."

It gets even worse when I try to tell him he can use some weapons to assist in another combat check (discard the weapon) AND use his power to assist in another combat check! That usually results in him stuffing several cards into his deck and/or discard while looking confused.

In my case, having Harsk's power named something like "Assisted Shot" might help clarify his confusion, since the only place something called "Assisted Shot" could be found would be on his character. Or not.

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Mike: So Larry Selinker is your father I'm assuming? I'm sure the growing number of ESL teachers can recognize his other concept: interlanguage. Now I understand a bit more why terminology is so important to you and why you think about games in the way that you do.

Truth.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Pixel Hunter wrote:

It's a shame that human nature tends to make such assumptions. Because naming the powers of the PACG characters would be very nice. I have plenty of RPG experience, but no Pathfinder RPG. But I also have the mindset that allows me to separate one thing from another, even if they are related at some level. Too bad not everyone can do that.

I have one friend, who despite playing for a few months now, just cannot comprehend his character's (Harsk) power to recharge a card, ANY card, to assist with a d4+x to combat at any other location. I'll tell him to "shoot an arrow/bolt", and he'll assume I'm asking him to discard one of his weapons to get that weapon's power. I'll try to clarify by pointing to his character sheet and saying "no, your character's power which is independent of your weapons and you only have to recharge ANY card."

It gets even worse when I try to tell him he can use some weapons to assist in another combat check (discard the weapon) AND use his power to assist in another combat check! That usually results in him stuffing several cards into his deck and/or discard while looking confused.

In my case, having Harsk's power named something like "Assisted Shot" might help clarify his confusion, since the only place something called "Assisted Shot" could be found would be on his character. Or not.

I was playing Seelah, and I nicknamed her +1d6 power "Smite Evil." The other players got very confused when I used "Smite Evil" on a diplomacy check. My girlfriend plays Seelah now and says, "and I bless myself," not to be confused with, "and I use a blessing." Her other ability is "Detect Evil," not to be confused with the spell "Detect Evil."

Nicknames are rather natural, but I agree that they tend to be loaded with preconceptions.

As such, I just say "I recharge a card to give you a d4" as Lem or "I cast a spell, so is this a spell?" as Ezren these days.


We do use nicknames/short sentences for some character abilities, but unfortunately with some abilities nothing good has come up yet.

Harsk throws axes into <bane's> back and scouts;
Kyra heals and turns undead;
Merisiel backstabs(recharge)/backstabs really hard (discard);
Seelah trashes the place searching for enemies;

For Seelah's selfbuff it's just "I add 1d6+1", and Ezren's player hasn't come up with anything to describe his powers.

A comprehensive list with ideas for descriptions of powers would be nice, as I find it really adds flavor to the game.

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