Intelligence to Hit


Advice

Silver Crusade

Is there a feat or class ability that allows you to use your INT mod to your attack instead of STR or DEX? I've been searching around, but I can't find anything. I could have sworn that there was something, though.


There is several sources for, including throw anything (which only applies to splash weapons), and Kirin Strike, which doubles intelligence modifier to damage (under certain circumstances).

(edit: but these don't apply int to hit)

Guided hand applies wisdom to hit, but that's not what your looking for.

Silver Crusade

Snow_Tiger wrote:

There is several sources for, including throw anything (which only applies to splash weapons), and Kirin Strike, which doubles intelligence modifier to damage (under certain circumstances).

Guided hand applies wisdom to hit, but that's not what your looking for.

Yeah, I play a Zen Archer, with pumped WIS for the attack, but I could have sworn there was a class that gave you INT to hit. For some reason I'm thinking Swashbuckler, but the SRD doesn't have the ACG yet, and the rogue archetype doesn't seem to have that ability.


The magus can add their int bonus to attack rolls by selecting the Arcane Accuracy arcana.

The witch uses their int bonus for attack rolls with the Prehensile Hair hex. White Haired witch archetype does the same but more and with CMs.

Silver Crusade

LibraryRPGamer wrote:

The magus can add their int bonus to attack rolls by selecting the Arcane Accuracy arcana.

The witch uses their int bonus for attack rolls with the Prehensile Hair hex. White Haired witch archetype does the same but more and with CMs.

Hmm, I think I remember that. I ask all this because I do want to make a Magus (like, my 10th one), but I don't want to rely on the prehensile hair. I was hoping there was a martial class or a feat that did it.


isdestroyer wrote:
LibraryRPGamer wrote:

The magus can add their int bonus to attack rolls by selecting the Arcane Accuracy arcana.

The witch uses their int bonus for attack rolls with the Prehensile Hair hex. White Haired witch archetype does the same but more and with CMs.

Hmm, I think I remember that. I ask all this because I do want to make a Magus (like, my 10th one), but I don't want to rely on the prehensile hair. I was hoping there was a martial class or a feat that did it.

Here's the link. Note that it requires using a point of arcane pool, so it's not exactly all that.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think there was one in 3rd edition that allowed that. I can't remember, as I don't have my books anymore.

Silver Crusade

I've looked through everything I could, PFSRD, HeroLab, forums, Google, and I can find nothing in Pathfinder or even 3.5 stuff that lets you substitute your Int mod for Str or Dex to your attack rolls.

It blows my mind that Paizo has not made something for this, it seems like an obvious thing to include.


Jason Bulhman's Factotum class is probably what you are looking for.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
isdestroyer wrote:

I've looked through everything I could, PFSRD, HeroLab, forums, Google, and I can find nothing in Pathfinder or even 3.5 stuff that lets you substitute your Int mod for Str or Dex to your attack rolls.

It blows my mind that Paizo has not made something for this, it seems like an obvious thing to include.

Why? Int is already a pretty good stat, and not one thematically linked to martial excellence in personal combat. It's thematically more than a bit weird to add it to attack rolls, and mechanically it potentially makes certain builds too powerful (Eldritch Knight, I'm looking at you)...so not very many things do it.

Makes sense to me.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I am not a fan of the a feat can substitute a stat for another philosophy that some game designers seem to like. And i think it is a good thing that a smart figther still need to be strong if he want to be a figther:)
Edit: to the OP i dont think you will find somthing better than arcane arcuracy in PF.
Edit 2: this 3pp class allow a magus to use the empyreal sorcerous bloodline as casting base that and a guided weapon will allow you to use almost only WIS and go with a lowish str and int:) i know that is what you asked but it is pehaps a bit in the rigth direction?

Silver Crusade

Cap. Darling wrote:

I am not a fan of the a feat can substitute a stat for another philosophy that some game designers seem to like. And i think it is a good thing that a smart figther still need to be strong if he want to be a figther:)

Edit: to the OP i dont think you will find somthing better than arcane arcuracy in PF.
Edit 2: this 3pp class allow a magus to use the empyreal sorcerous bloodline as casting base that and a guided weapon will allow you to use almost only WIS and go with a lowish str and int:) i know that is what you asked but it is pehaps a bit in the rigth direction?

I'm not not sure what 3pp means, is it 3rd party? If not, can you post a link to it? The reason I was looking for this was to make a Magus that was as SAD as possible.

@ 137ben: Can you post a link?


isdestroyer wrote:
Cap. Darling wrote:

I am not a fan of the a feat can substitute a stat for another philosophy that some game designers seem to like. And i think it is a good thing that a smart figther still need to be strong if he want to be a figther:)

Edit: to the OP i dont think you will find somthing better than arcane arcuracy in PF.
Edit 2: this 3pp class allow a magus to use the empyreal sorcerous bloodline as casting base that and a guided weapon will allow you to use almost only WIS and go with a lowish str and int:) i know that is what you asked but it is pehaps a bit in the rigth direction?

I'm not not sure what 3pp means, is it 3rd party? If not, can you post a link to it? The reason I was looking for this was to make a Magus that was as SAD as possible.

@ 137ben: Can you post a link?

Is means 3rd party publisher yes:( it is on the SRD if you wanna give it a look.


A witch (or Hexcrafter) with Prehensile Hair can attack with that natural attack using Int in place of strength.

Silver Crusade

@ Cap. Darling: Unfortunately, this is for PFS, so no 3rd party. But I am grateful for the advice, and that's for everyone.

@ Skaldi: Yeah, I'm starting to think that is the only way to do it. The closest I can get is by going Hexcrafter or Kensai (though Kensai only adds it to defense).

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Kirin Strike and Focused Aim can add Intelligence to damage. A universalist's hand of the apprentice ability lets you throw a sword at someone and use Intelligence on the attack roll.

This isn't 4th Edition where you can basically add any ability modifier to your attack and damage rolls. It needs to make sense both in the game world and the game mechanics. It doesn't make sense in-game because you're still physically wielding the weapon. It doesn't make sense mechanically because Intelligence is already a strong statistic, and mages/gish classes already have a large advantage over full martials in combat.


A divine strategist (cleric archetype) adds their intelligence modifier to hit whenever they are flanking or on AoO's. However this is at 8th level so not really a dip, and you lose a domain and channel, so no guided hand. However if you want this and are alright with being a cleric, then take a good alignment, then take sacred summons and summon good monster as feats. Then whenever you need a flanking buddy summon a bunch with summon monster. Get the feat that lets you summon more too. At this point it's a bit feat intensive but get weapon finesse and an agile weapon. Now you want lots of dex and int. You are a super badass skill monkey, with full spells! Also a b!!#@in init. (The other abilities of a divine strategist are awesome. look it up). You know this sounds really good. I may just do this.


Thematically I can think of no Intelligence characters who couldn't be represented with either Dexterity or Wisdom or Charisma to hit. Being smart isn't enough to hit someone, you either need to be physically precise enough, perceptive enough, confident enough or strong enough. That's why there are plenty of ways to get damage out of Intelligence but not attack bonuses.

Silver Crusade

I've always seen it as you sizing up the opponent, and knowing how to calculate their next move. You are more precise because you know what their next move will be.


There are TONS of ways to fluff int to hit. My favorite, is sizing up the opponent, calculating trajectories, then putting your weapon at the right place so that the opponent hurts themselves.

However, from a mechanical perspective, it can be problematic.


williamoak wrote:

There are TONS of ways to fluff int to hit. My favorite, is sizing up the opponent, calculating trajectories, then putting your weapon at the right place so that the opponent hurts themselves.

However, from a mechanical perspective, it can be problematic.

We'll do a test. I'll take 10 fairly strong guys and have them try to hit a moving target that doesn't want to be hit. You take 10 super intelligent but really weak guys and have them do the same thing. We'll see how it goes.

You can size up your opponent and calculate trajectories all you want. If you can't get there faster than he can move out of the way, you won't hit.

And even in terms of sizing up his movements and "calculating their moves," honestly, knowing what someone is going to do in a fight before they do it comes down to awareness and intuition, both of which are heavily in the "Wisdom" area.


4 people marked this as a favorite.
Cheburn wrote:
williamoak wrote:

There are TONS of ways to fluff int to hit. My favorite, is sizing up the opponent, calculating trajectories, then putting your weapon at the right place so that the opponent hurts themselves.

However, from a mechanical perspective, it can be problematic.

We'll do a test. I'll take 10 fairly strong guys and have them try to hit a moving target that doesn't want to be hit. You take 10 super intelligent but really weak guys and have them do the same thing. We'll see how it goes.

You can size up your opponent and calculate trajectories all you want. If you can't get there faster than he can move out of the way, you won't hit.

And even in terms of sizing up his movements and "calculating their moves," honestly, knowing what someone is going to do in a fight before they do it comes down to awareness and intuition, both of which are heavily in the "Wisdom" area.

Hey, I play this cool game called Pathfinder. It's a fantasy game! Isn't that cool?

I get to use my imagination and stuff. It isn't always realistic, but it's a game. I have fun with it, and so do many others!

Isn't that great? :D

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
williamoak wrote:

There are TONS of ways to fluff int to hit. My favorite, is sizing up the opponent, calculating trajectories, then putting your weapon at the right place so that the opponent hurts themselves.

However, from a mechanical perspective, it can be problematic.

We'll do a test. I'll take 10 fairly strong guys and have them try to hit a moving target that doesn't want to be hit. You take 10 super intelligent but really weak guys and have them do the same thing. We'll see how it goes.

You can size up your opponent and calculate trajectories all you want. If you can't get there faster than he can move out of the way, you won't hit.

And even in terms of sizing up his movements and "calculating their moves," honestly, knowing what someone is going to do in a fight before they do it comes down to awareness and intuition, both of which are heavily in the "Wisdom" area.

Hey, I play this cool game called Pathfinder. It's a fantasy game! Isn't that cool?

I get to use my imagination and stuff. It isn't always realistic, but it's a game. I have fun with it, and so do many others!

Isn't that great? :D

But if it's not believable, then it ruins immersion.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cyrad wrote:
Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
williamoak wrote:

There are TONS of ways to fluff int to hit. My favorite, is sizing up the opponent, calculating trajectories, then putting your weapon at the right place so that the opponent hurts themselves.

However, from a mechanical perspective, it can be problematic.

We'll do a test. I'll take 10 fairly strong guys and have them try to hit a moving target that doesn't want to be hit. You take 10 super intelligent but really weak guys and have them do the same thing. We'll see how it goes.

You can size up your opponent and calculate trajectories all you want. If you can't get there faster than he can move out of the way, you won't hit.

And even in terms of sizing up his movements and "calculating their moves," honestly, knowing what someone is going to do in a fight before they do it comes down to awareness and intuition, both of which are heavily in the "Wisdom" area.

Hey, I play this cool game called Pathfinder. It's a fantasy game! Isn't that cool?

I get to use my imagination and stuff. It isn't always realistic, but it's a game. I have fun with it, and so do many others!

Isn't that great? :D

But if it's not believable, then it ruins immersion.

Have fun playing fighters.


Skaldi the Tallest wrote:
A witch (or Hexcrafter) with Prehensile Hair can attack with that natural attack using Int in place of strength.

Interestingly, with a 2 level dip in scarred witch doctor, a character can have a reach weapon that does attack and damage based on their constitution score. The idea of a combat character with fully maxed out constitution is intriguing. Unfortunately the fatal flaw with that is that it's a natural weapon, so you only ever get the one attack with it. You'll end up needing to supplement with other attacks, and they'll be based on other stats, defeating the purpose.


If you are allowed 3.5 material, the feat Kung Fu Master (iirc), which was published in the Dragon magazine compendium, allows you to use Int to hit.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
Master of the Dark Triad wrote:
Cheburn wrote:
williamoak wrote:

There are TONS of ways to fluff int to hit. My favorite, is sizing up the opponent, calculating trajectories, then putting your weapon at the right place so that the opponent hurts themselves.

However, from a mechanical perspective, it can be problematic.

We'll do a test. I'll take 10 fairly strong guys and have them try to hit a moving target that doesn't want to be hit. You take 10 super intelligent but really weak guys and have them do the same thing. We'll see how it goes.

You can size up your opponent and calculate trajectories all you want. If you can't get there faster than he can move out of the way, you won't hit.

And even in terms of sizing up his movements and "calculating their moves," honestly, knowing what someone is going to do in a fight before they do it comes down to awareness and intuition, both of which are heavily in the "Wisdom" area.

Hey, I play this cool game called Pathfinder. It's a fantasy game! Isn't that cool?

I get to use my imagination and stuff. It isn't always realistic, but it's a game. I have fun with it, and so do many others!

Isn't that great? :D

But if it's not believable, then it ruins immersion.
Have fun playing fighters.

To be fair, INT -> hit is no worse than Charisma to Armor Class, and that's a thing.

That being said, while Pathfinder certainly isn't a completely realistic game, they do try to model certain parts of combat etc with some level of realism. And the "I'm super smart, so I know where to hit you before you know you're going to move there" shtick was cheesy in the Sherlock Holmes movies, and it would be cheesy in PF.

If they put it in, it's not skin off my back, but I'm certainly allowed to comment that in general if you have someone who is going to win a fistfight by "calculating what's going to happen before it does" (which is ~the flavor we're talking about with +int to hit), that person ends up on the floor with a broken nose.

"I'm super smart, so I can cast a spell that turns you into my slave" is IMO much more realistic ... if you are in a world where spells are a thing.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

As I mentioned before, you're still making a physical action. I can understand Intelligence modifier being added to an attack roll in the case of some kind of mental or magical ability guiding your strike. However, to replace Strength/Dexterity entirely with Intelligence implies the attack is purely guided by mental prowess. Yes, Pathfinder abstracts many things, but the entire point of ability scores is to abstract how your mental and physical prowess affects your actions in the game. Replacing a physical statistic with a mental statistic without making the action a mental action contradicts the fluff, abstraction, and mechanics.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Wow, that escalated quickly.


A ring of telekinesis. Use it to throw swords.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
isdestroyer said wrote:
Wow, that escalated quickly.

It always does. Some people take how "they" want the game to be played really seriously. I am unaware of any feat that does the swap you want but there are several spells that use your caster level as your base attack with your intelligence bonus to hit maybe that could help with some massive reskinning.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cyrad wrote:
As I mentioned before, you're still making a physical action. I can understand Intelligence modifier being added to an attack roll in the case of some kind of mental or magical ability guiding your strike. However, to replace Strength/Dexterity entirely with Intelligence implies the attack is purely guided by mental prowess. Yes, Pathfinder abstracts many things, but the entire point of ability scores is to abstract how your mental and physical prowess affects your actions in the game. Replacing a physical statistic with a mental statistic without making the action a mental action contradicts the fluff, abstraction, and mechanics.

At least two martial arts that I am personally experienced with (Wing Chun and Pa Kua Chang) do exactly what you are discounting as possible. Wing Chun was developed by a woman for women and those with less physical prowess than your average man to use. Rather than raw power, Pa Kua and Wing Chun both make liberal use of angles, body position and the redirection of your opponents force against them. Tai Chi, which IIRC was developed by a man who was living with an improperly healed broken hip, and Aikido also work similarly.

Soft styles and internal styles do not rely on strength or even dexterity to be effective. External styles and hard styles like Tae Kwon Do, most Karate and even some of the Chinese arts do work exactly like you describe but their existence does not preclude other types of arts or make those other arts ineffective. Of course, overall fitness is important no matter what art you practice but that boils down to Con rather than Str or Dex in PFRPG terms.

I don't usually like bringing real life into the game but you opened that can of worms, not me :) So, based on my real life experience, I believe there is a good argument to be made for applying Int to attack.


Unfortunately, I think others have already brought up Pathfinder solutions that sort of work for intelligence.

Since it's PFS, these won't help, but in a more liberal environment, you could port over the knowledge devotion from 3.5 or the archivist's dark knowledge ability from Heroes of Horror. I think dark knowledge would look pretty good as part of a bard archetype.


born_of_fire wrote:
Cyrad wrote:
As I mentioned before, you're still making a physical action. I can understand Intelligence modifier being added to an attack roll in the case of some kind of mental or magical ability guiding your strike. However, to replace Strength/Dexterity entirely with Intelligence implies the attack is purely guided by mental prowess. Yes, Pathfinder abstracts many things, but the entire point of ability scores is to abstract how your mental and physical prowess affects your actions in the game. Replacing a physical statistic with a mental statistic without making the action a mental action contradicts the fluff, abstraction, and mechanics.

At least two martial arts that I am personally experienced with (Wing Chun and Pa Kua Chang) do exactly what you are discounting as possible. Wing Chun was developed by a woman for women and those with less physical prowess than your average man to use. Rather than raw power, Pa Kua and Wing Chun both make liberal use of angles, body position and the redirection of your opponents force against them. Tai Chi, which IIRC was developed by a man who was living with an improperly healed broken hip, and Aikido also work similarly.

Soft styles and internal styles do not rely on strength or even dexterity to be effective. External styles and hard styles like Tae Kwon Do, most Karate and even some of the Chinese arts do work exactly like you describe but their existence does not preclude other types of arts or make those other arts ineffective. Of course, overall fitness is important no matter what art you practice but that boils down to Con rather than Str or Dex in PFRPG terms.

I don't usually like bringing real life into the game but you opened that can of worms, not me :) So, based on my real life experience, I believe there is a good argument to be made for applying Int to attack.

These all seem like Dex to hit to me. You still need to train your body to accomplish what these martial artists accomplish. You can't just read a book about the theories of Wing Chun and all of a sudden be a martial arts master. Knowledge is a huge boon to these folks, but it's not how they land a blow or accomplish a throw or anything else.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Skaldi: Dex is commonly related to things like speed, agility and reflexes. While these are all valuable things for any martial art, there are a number of martial arts that use science to make them less vital to success. Wing Chun is about maintaining the proper protection of your centre by using the correct angle of your arms in relation to your body and your opponent. Pa Kua is even more mathematically involved in terms of angles, foot positioning and movement.

You are correct that no one reads a book to learn these arts, they require practice so that the techniques become second nature to a practitioner but there is a good deal of geometry involved at the very least. One can learn these arts without understanding the math of them but you will never master them without understanding the math.

To think about this in terms of another activity: You are saying that playing pool is a physical activity so one's strength or dexterity should be used to determine their ability at playing; all it takes to play pool is hitting a ball with a stick. And I am saying that, yes, playing pool requires the physical ability to hit the ball with the correct amount of finesse and/or power, but it's understanding the math of the game that will make you a truly capable pool player.

This is not an attempt put words into your mouth, I am just trying to make an analogy to illustrate the fineries of my point.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Just for the record, "the ability to hit things" that you get through training and drilling is probably represented by BAB, since how good you are at combat very rarely improves stuff that increasing the bonus from your STR or DEX would.

Just because you drill non-stop for 3 years and become a judo master doesn't cause you to be also a strongman (although you will probably get somewhat stronger, even if you don't do strength training, admittedly), nor do you become a gymnast, probably.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Cheburn wrote:
williamoak wrote:

There are TONS of ways to fluff int to hit. My favorite, is sizing up the opponent, calculating trajectories, then putting your weapon at the right place so that the opponent hurts themselves.

However, from a mechanical perspective, it can be problematic.

We'll do a test. I'll take 10 fairly strong guys and have them try to hit a moving target that doesn't want to be hit. You take 10 super intelligent but really weak guys and have them do the same thing. We'll see how it goes.

You can size up your opponent and calculate trajectories all you want. If you can't get there faster than he can move out of the way, you won't hit.

And even in terms of sizing up his movements and "calculating their moves," honestly, knowing what someone is going to do in a fight before they do it comes down to awareness and intuition, both of which are heavily in the "Wisdom" area.

I had to necro this thread just to reply to this statement: "We'll do a test. I'll take 10 fairly strong guys and have them try to hit a moving target that doesn't want to be hit. You take 10 super intelligent but really weak guys and have them do the same thing. We'll see how it goes."

My reply: No group of really strong guys has ever hit Mars, but groups of really smart people have.


Just to drive someone crazy, take a look at snipers, it doesn't matter how strong they are, how dexterous they can be, if they can't calculate the trajectory of their shot, take in account dozens of variables, they will miss. Highly intelligent shooters.


maouse33 wrote:


My reply: No group of really strong guys has ever hit Mars, but groups of really smart people have.

Funny can of worms... how often did they have to try cause they mixed units?


JohnWarlock wrote:
Just to drive someone crazy, take a look at snipers, it doesn't matter how strong they are, how dexterous they can be, if they can't calculate the trajectory of their shot, take in account dozens of variables, they will miss. Highly intelligent shooters.

Mmm... A bit of a falacy. Their ability to calculate on the fly is important, but they for sure need to be strong enough to withstand their rifle's recoil (the longer the range, the stronger the rifle's kickback), and they need to have a steady hand (which falls under the dexterity category) because even a millimeter of shake with result in a large miss at the end point.


don't modern snipers work in teams?

You basically have one person who acts as a spotter and the other person takes the shot. If you want to think of it in pathfinder terms it's like a wizard casting true strike on the ranger. The ranger doesn't need a high int because that's what the wizard is for. Yes, the sniper could act alone but they are way more effective with a spotter.


While we're here, I'm going to leave the option for Int to damage


The feat Cunning Killer is somewhat close. When you succeed at a Knowledge check about a creature, you gain an insight bonus on attack & damage. It has a few strings attached, but should work in practice, for example for an investigator, eldritch knight or magus.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Intelligence to Hit All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice