[PFS] An Eldritch Knight who isn't


Advice

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

So, I just had a thought.

What if you build a PC as though you were going to be an Eldritch Knight, but your actual levels were single-class full-caster?

For example:

Human (dual-talented)

STR 17 (bump at 4th)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 17 (bump at 8th)
WIS 10
CHA 07

Straight arcanist.

Proficient in simple weapons, so I'll be fighting with a morningstar (though Heirloom Weapon is also a possibility). I'll upgrade it with masterwork transformation, but as a way of saying "screw you" to the people who are supposed to be up in front, I won't be spending cash on magical enhancements; instead, I'll carry scrolls of magic weapon at the early levels and then start using greater magic weapon later on.

To further flip the bird to traditional frontliners, I won't be wearing any armor. At low levels, I'll keep my AC up with mage armor and the occasional shield. Then I'll start using things like mirror image and displacement to stay safe. For HP, my FCBs will be going there and my first feat will be Toughness, so I'm looking at 8HP/level, plus any enhancements to CON.

The biggest remaining issue is my attack bonus. At half-BAB, by 11th level I'm at –6 to hit compared to a full-BAB class.

Wait, let's factor in Power Attack. They'll be at -3, I'm only at -2, so the difference is actually just -5.

Fortunately, heroism has a nice, long duration, so I can fairly consistently have a +2 morale bonus to hit (and to saves at the same time).

Now I'm only -3 from a full-BAB class. Of course, that's at 11th level. At 10th, I'm only -2, and if someone has a high AC, I can just cast scorching ray or something.

As for melee damage, by 11th I'm likely to have a +4 STR belt, for a total STR of 22. Attacking with 2HPA, that's +9 STR, +6 PA, +3 Arcane Strike, +2 greater magic weapon. That's +20 on my damage. Seems decent, right?

So am I missing something, or is playing a "gish" just a matter of using the right stats and spell selections, and I don't actually need martial levels?


Would a scarred witch doctor with the right patron not be even more ideal for this? I have no familiarity with PFS whatsoever, so maybe they ain't allowed. Or maybe the extra HP aren't worth the witch's far less aggressive spell list?


Jiggy, don't forget Weapon Focus and Dodge. Good solid feats for this build.

In fact, Weapon Focus is probably more useful for a 1/2 BAB character than a Full BAB character.

:D

On a side note: Does this mean you're not playing your EK build?

Shadow Lodge

it will be a very difficult character for you to pull off, for a few reasons.

1. the actual fighters will finish most combats before youre done buffing yourself.
2. you will miss A LOT until you can start polymorphing.
3. you will lose out on a ton of function by trying to be in melee combat, assuming your goal is to be in melee and not be an archer. you will need feats, traits and spells geared to melee just to be functional as a character.
4. you will be subpar, no matter how hard you try, to everyone else in the party at just about every level of PFS.

if you can see that^ and still want to play your character then you will have fun no matter what.

a transmorph mage can be very good at melee, but they take a few levels to get there.

one of the reason why gish classes like DDs and EKs are so powerful, is because you're taking the mundane qualities of the best melee classes, and the spell casting of the best caster classes and making them functional in the same class. your character while still a full caster, is taking the weakest points of a wizard: bad bab, no armor proficiencies, low hp, poor weapon proficiencies, and not trading them in for improved versions.

so if you think about it you're doing the exact opposite of a gish by trying to melee as a wizard/sorcerer.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Weren Wu Jen wrote:
Jiggy, don't forget Weapon Focus and Dodge. Good solid feats for this build.

Will definitely be taking Weapon Focus, I just didn't mention it in my attack comparison because fighters take it too so it doesn't shrink the gap. Dodge isn't worth the feat slot, since I won't be keeping my AC up for the long haul.

Quote:

On a side note: Does this mean you're not playing your EK build?

I've got a while before I need to lock in my next low-level PC, so I'm exploring. It was actually my latest EK build that got me thinking, "What if I did the same thing but with nothing but arcanist levels?"


At low levels wizards with racial weapon proficiency do this well enough. A 0 or 1 in your BAB isn't hugely different from the 1 or 2 that fighters have, and you can make up for it by having a free masterwork bonded weapon before the fighters of the same level can afford masterwork. If you're a human it's not going to be a great weapon, sure, but races like dwarves, elves, and half orcs get automatic proficiency with some nice fancy weapons.

Half orc is my favourite of those options, for the greataxe proficiency. Tengu are also pretty neat if you get outside the core races, as they have a nice variety of proficiency options with some very useful bladed weapons.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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TheSideKick wrote:
it will be a very difficult character for you to pull off, for a few reasons.

I'm good at pulling off difficult characters. :)

Quote:
1. the actual fighters will finish most combats before youre done buffing yourself.

Maybe you didn't look at the buffs involved...?

Mage armor is an hour per level; it's already running when combat starts.
Shield, at low levels, is if I feel like higher AC would be helpful. If I look around the battlefield and think my allies will have the fight ended in round 1, then I wouldn't even cast it. It's an option for when it looks like I'll be in melee for a while, and even then I stop using it past around 4th-5th level.
Magic weapon is not a first-round buff; it's for when I need to deal with incorporeality or DR/magic. And like shield, it's optional: I could instead use it on the fighters' weapon, or just support with a magic missile.
Greater magic weapon is an hour per level, so it's running all day.
Heroism is 10min/level, so easy to already have up when expecting trouble. If I don't have it up, I can just fall back on "Hey look, I'm a full caster!" for that one fight.
Mirror image/displacement are the only consistent first-round buffs. I have yet to sit at a table where the fighters ended the fight on round 1 (I say this after getting a self-buffing EK to 12th and a self-buffing cleric to 10th), so I don't anticipate an issue.

In summary: I only spend round 1 buffing. The fighters won't have it done by then.

Quote:
2. you will miss A LOT until you can start polymorphing.

As I mentioned in my post, I'm only down -2 to hit at 10th level compared to full BAB, thanks to a reduced Power Attack penalty and the addition of heroism. But let's check a few different levels, just to be sure:

2nd: Where I'd likely start playing. I'm missing 1 point of BAB. Darn.
4th: I'm missing 2 points of BAB, but the fighter's PA penalty just went up, so I'm only down -1.
6th: I'm down 3 BAB, but I still have that PA difference and now I can add heroism, so I'm actually on par.
8th: I'm down 4 BAB, the PA difference is still 1, I still have heroism, so a total of -1.
10th: As mentioned before, net -2.

That doesn't look like "miss A LOT" to me.
Even so, tell me about this "until you can start polymorphing" thing, eh?

Quote:
3. you will lose out on a ton of function by trying to be in melee combat, assuming your goal is to be in melee and not be an archer. you will need feats, traits and spells geared to melee just to be functional as a character.

Yes, and I detailed a good number of them in my OP. Did you read more than just the introduction?

Quote:
4. you will be subpar, no matter how hard you try, to everyone else in the party at just about every level of PFS.

At any given single task? Sure. But there's a lot of value in ALWAYS being able to contribute no matter what party/scenario you find yourself in.

Liberty's Edge

Jiggy wrote:


As I mentioned in my post, I'm only down -2 to hit at 10th level compared to full BAB, thanks to a reduced Power Attack penalty and the addition of heroism. But let's check a few different levels, just to be sure:

2nd: Where I'd likely start playing. I'm missing 1 point of BAB. Darn.
4th: I'm missing 2 points of BAB, but the fighter's PA penalty just went up, so I'm only down -1.
6th: I'm down 3 BAB, but I still have that PA difference and now I can add heroism, so I'm actually on par.
8th: I'm down 4 BAB, the PA difference is still 1, I still have heroism, so a total of -1.
10th: As mentioned before, net -2.
That doesn't look like "miss A LOT" to me.

You're not counting Weapon Training. Or Rage. Both of which make it more like -4 to -6 by 10th (depending on whether the Barbarian has a Furious Weapon, or the Fighter Gloves of Dueling).

Favored Enemy, Challenge, and Smite Evil are admittedly more situational...but barring stuff like polymorph spells you lack an equivalent situational boost, and even then, your situational enhancement requires a non-Swift action (which theirs do not), and really isn't as good as Smite Evil or an Order of the Dragon Cavalier's Challenge anyway.

Now, I'm not saying it's unworkable, it's not, but the difference is larger than you're stating.

I think a more important question is: Are 2 caster levels worth 11 HP, +5 BAB, proficiency with all martial weapons, and the ability to grab Weapon Specialization. Now...I don't actually know, but that's the substance of the trade being made.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
You're not counting Weapon Training. Or Rage. Both of which make it more like -4 to -6 by 10th (depending on whether the Barbarian has a Furious Weapon, or the Fighter Gloves of Dueling).

Okay, fair point. I forgot about those.


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How about using a long spear? That Way you can also cast a spell like truestrike and trip the bad guy like a champ.


ooh cool! I was building a half-orc sorcerer with the Orc bloodline focusing on melee combat. I built him 15th level with the plan of him being a BBEG or something. I never got him fully stated out but this just reminded me of him.

The Exchange

Shhh! Don't warn them Jiggy!


Hmm, I was curious to see if I could make this work as an archer going elf for the free bow proficiency and dex bonus. I also thought I would try and take advantage of the high dex for various different skills. Her stats include the benefits of Mage Armour, Heroism, Elemental Body II and Gravity Bow all of which can be cast outside of combat (although 1 minute/level is rather tight). Haste is her only direct in combat buff although ideally someone else will provide it. Her stats include its effects. I tend to think she has a benefit over the melee version in that she can always full attack and is routinely flying which takes a lot of the pressure off her defences which is important given her poor HP. I ended up taking the Shapechanging sub school as perfection of self conflicts with the swift action for arcane strike and at this level it isn't worth it as arcane strike does not have limited rounds. She is PFS legal with the exception of the bracers. In a home game I would take CWI instead of Multimorph and would obviously keep Scribe Scroll rather than getting the useless Spell Focus.

Here she is:

Pure Wizard Archer:
Female Elf Wizard 10
CG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +12; Senses low-light vision; Perception +20

--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 30, touch 22, flat-footed 20 (+4 armor, +9 Dex, +4 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight)
hp 61 (10d6+19)
Fort +9, Ref +18, Will +10; +2 vs. enchantments
Immune sleep

--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 60 ft.

Ranged +3 adaptive seeking composite longbow +17/+17/+17 (2d6+13/19-20/×3)

Special Attacks battleshaping

Wizard Spells Prepared (CL 10th; concentration +14):
5th—elemental body ii [S], elemental body ii, elemental body ii
4th—dimension door, extend haste [S], greater invisibility, summon monster iv, summon monster iv
3rd—dispel magic, haste [S], haste, heroism, heroism
2nd—extend gravity bow [S], glitterdust (DC 16), mirror image, mirror image, resist energy, see invisibility
1st—gravity bow [S], gravity bow, gravity bow, shield, vanish, vanish
0 (at will)—detect magic, detect poison, prestidigitation (DC 14), resistance

--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 28, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 7, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +11; CMD 30

Feats Arcane Strike, Deadly Aim, Extend Spell, Multimorph, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Spell Focus (Transmutation)

Traits reactionary, underbridge dweller (magnimar)

Skills Acrobatics +26 (+38 jump), Appraise +6, Bluff +0, Climb +5, Diplomacy +0, Disable Device +27, Disguise +0, Escape Artist +27, Fly +24, Heal +0, Intimidate +0, Perception +20, Ride +11, Sense Motive +0, Spellcraft +10, Stealth +21, Survival +0, Swim +5; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, silent hunter

Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc

SQ arcane bonds (arcane bond [+3 adaptive seeking composite longbow]), change shape, opposition schools (evocation, necromancy), weapon familiarity, physical enhancement, seeking, specialized schools (shapechange)

Combat Gear extend metamagic rod (lesser); Other Gear +3 adaptive seeking composite longbow, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, boots of elvenkind, bracers of falcon's aim, cloak of resistance +2, eyes of the eagle, headband of vast intelligence +2, ioun stone (dusty rose prism), ioun stone (dusty rose prism, cracked), ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), ring of protection +1, vest of escape, thieves' tools, masterwork


Truthfully I don't see why you'd bother since you can take on EK at 3rd level these days without any real trouble (base assimar). Thus you only end up 2 levels behind in spellcasting, and 1 in BAB. If you really want to cast spells and hit things with your beatstick, that's a pretty solid combo (but I imagine you already know much of the above).


drbuzzard wrote:
Truthfully I don't see why you'd bother since you can take on EK at 3rd level these days without any real trouble (base assimar). Thus you only end up 2 levels behind in spellcasting, and 1 in BAB. If you really want to cast spells and hit things with your beatstick, that's a pretty solid combo (but I imagine you already know much of the above).

Or you can be really cheesy and take one level of a Divinist Wizard instead of being an assimar.

The clauraudience/clairvoyance effect counts as being able to cast a 3rd-level spell, RAW.


ooh, didn't know that, I may have to see about trying different builds then


Looks like it's the scryer sub school.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TheSideKick wrote:

it will be a very difficult character for you to pull off, for a few reasons.

1. the actual fighters will finish most combats before youre done buffing yourself.
2. you will miss A LOT until you can start polymorphing.
3. you will lose out on a ton of function by trying to be in melee combat, assuming your goal is to be in melee and not be an archer. you will need feats, traits and spells geared to melee just to be functional as a character.
4. you will be subpar, no matter how hard you try, to everyone else in the party at just about every level of PFS.

if you can see that^ and still want to play your character then you will have fun no matter what.

a transmorph mage can be very good at melee, but they take a few levels to get there.

one of the reason why gish classes like DDs and EKs are so powerful, is because you're taking the mundane qualities of the best melee classes, and the spell casting of the best caster classes and making them functional in the same class. your character while still a full caster, is taking the weakest points of a wizard: bad bab, no armor proficiencies, low hp, poor weapon proficiencies, and not trading them in for improved versions.

so if you think about it you're doing the exact opposite of a gish by trying to melee as a wizard/sorcerer.

On the other hand, if I understand Mr. Jacobs correctly, you'd be traveling pretty much the same road that Aroden did as a mortal (possibly Tensor as well). He was a melee focused single classed wizard, no PrC, no Magus levels. And apparently fought with longsword and shield.


Jiggy wrote:


Wait, let's factor in Power Attack. They'll be at -3, I'm only at -2, so the difference is actually just -5.

Unless they fit into the majority of damage-focused melee martial builds using a weapon in two hands with Furious Focus... in which case they are -0 for the first iterative attack. On that note, they have an iterative attack due to hitting +6 BAB prior to PFS endgame.

Quote:


As for melee damage, by 11th I'm likely to have a +4 STR belt, for a total STR of 22. Attacking with 2HPA, that's +9 STR, +6 PA, +3 Arcane Strike, +2 greater magic weapon. That's +20 on my damage. Seems decent, right?

It is decent until you factor in the lack of weapon training, rage, combat option-expanding feats and rage powers, loss of early round action economies due to needing to buff prior to wading into melee, slower progression of BAB causing delay in BAB-scaling feats like Power Attack, etc.

It will probably be good enough for PFS and fun to play. Compared to an EK gish of comparable level in PFS, it will have better casting options (and power) but a bit less martially capable in surprise situations.


The comparison you're making in your first post is not to a fighter, or any full martial class, as they all have class abilities that help them hit and do damage. It's essentially a comparison to the Warrior NPC class: full base attack bonus, nothing else. And the result of that comparison is that you're at -2 to hit and the same for damage bonus (your +3 arcane strike vs their 3 better power attack bonus), while you always have to spend your first round buffing to not die horribly as soon as you're attacked. And while you somewhat make up for it in versatility, most parties probably wouldn't be too happy with an NPC class holding their front line.

That isn't to say the build is useless, and in a poorly optimized party it might well be fine, but it is a rather low-powered build.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Wow, people are still replying to this? Thanks folks! Though it was mostly just a thought experiment, and I'm fairly convinced it's not a good idea now. :)

The Exchange

Jiggy wrote:
Wow, people are still replying to this? Thanks folks! Though it was mostly just a thought experiment, and I'm fairly convinced it's not a good idea now. :)

Yes, yes, shhh, don't spread around such bad ideas as being like Aroden.


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Aroden had to die for a reason. Coulda been a bad build.

Shadow Lodge

Jiggy wrote:
Wow, people are still replying to this? Thanks folks! Though it was mostly just a thought experiment, and I'm fairly convinced it's not a good idea now. :)

its not a bad character if you focus on polymorph effects. it will never be great, but it wont be terrible.

levels 1-5 will stink to high heaven, but monsterous physique, undead anatomy, dragon shape, and elemental form 2 (assuming you can get away with still holding your weapon?), can make this a very functional character. you will be fagile , but you can also get some damage in.

i tried to make this work with a half orc for the bite and falcata proficiency. seems to have worked semi good.

and yes i read your entire post


I always thought a good way to go eldritch knight was to get ten levels of magus with it. It's a neat combo.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

If you're going pretty far into high levels, maybe.

Though someone mentioned in another thread the Tengu Wings feat, which would also qualify you for EK's spellcasting requirement (though you have to be 5th to take the feat).

So someone could make a tengu magus, play through 5th and take Tengu Wings, then jump into EK.

Tengu isn't necessarily the best race for an EK, though...


For one game I designed a BBEG as a high end boss, who was a 9th level magus, 6th level eldritch knight lich. Tough fight indeed.


Well I made a somewhat close build to that too. 25 point build elf, level 12.
1 level of fighter, 6 levels sorcerer, 5 levels eldritch knight. Here's is what I'm looking at
Str16
Dex16. Fort 8
Con12. Ref 7
Int14. Will 7
Wis7
Cha16
BAB+9 AC 20/24 with Mage armor
My GM starts players off with +2 weapon, armor and shield although I didn't use one.
I took these feats: combat casting, defensive combat training, dodge, arcane armor training, arcane armor mastery, weapon focus, arcane strike, leadership for a lvl 11 cohort, and iron will. I took the celestial bloodline for the heavenly fire(does dmg or heals) although some people prefer dragonic bloodline. I have a +15 to hit with1d8 +6/9 with arcane strike. I can stay semi helpful fighter with 4th level spells. This allows displacement, greater invisibility, and mirror image to be used, decreasing the chances of being hit. By no means can you hang around but you play as a stiker. get in, hit some and get out. If the mob is too crazy, hit it with ranged spells. Ray of enfeeblement, scorching ray, fireball, lightning bolt, confusion, or phantasmal killer if you feel lucky. I like this build alot


I would say it won't be horrible at melee combat.

But in addition to the 'standard' choices of a melee martial PC.

The fighter would have weapon training and twice as many feats.
The barbarian would have rage and rage powers.
The paladin would have smite, great saves, and self heals.
The ranger would have the free weapon style feats.
The magus has spell combat.
Etc...

I think you will find you are more than just a few BaB from what the full martial character is doing.

Not saying it can't be done though. Just need to plan on a bigger difference than it sounded like you were thinking in the beginning. But like you said, you are also a full caster (but without any casting feats since you spent them on melee feats). So in a given combat you can decide they opposition is too far (or flying) for melee combat, so send a few fireballs their way.

And since you can weapon fight in some of the easy fights, especially against mooks, you can save all of your high level spells for the BBEG or at least major opponents.

If it were me, I would still probably take 1 level of a martial class.


Thank you, I did take 1 level of fighter; did you mean an additional level? And my BAB is 3 behind a fighter of my level.


I was responding to Jiggy's posted build concept.

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