Sounds like you have the gist of it. In addition, a swarm takes 50% more damage from channeled negative energy as it's an an effect that affects an area.
Take Selective Channel if you don't want to hit your friends. You should be doing that anyway if you're playing a negative energy channeler; it's pretty much a must-have.
Hi everyone,
Hi and welcome!
I'm a new player soloing through Souls for Smugglers Shiv and I just had a random encounter generated versus a spider swarm and its been quite a challenge to figure out the correct way of handling it.
Swarms can be quite challenging - you're right to try to think this out.
If I understand correctly, there used to be a section in the rules 3.5 pertaining to swarms being vulnerable to fire (attacks via torches, lanterns) but those got intentionally removed in the Pathfinder rules.
Mostly true. There were lines such as "A lit torch swung as an improvised weapon deals 1d3 points of fire damage per hit. " in 3.5. However a torch still does 1 point of fire damage (attacking as an improvised one-handed weapon dealing 1d3 bludgeoning as well), and I can't think of a GM who wouldn't apply that to swarms.
Last night I tried to figure out if my cleric would be able to deal with it via channel negative energy. Does this work?
Yes indeed, and you'll deal +50% damage as an area effect attack. Excellent method.
My cleric's alignment is neutral (thankfully) so I can freely choose whether I want to apply positive or negative to living creatures. If he were alignment good I would not be able to do this.
Correct, neutral clerics of neutral gods get to choose at character creation whether to channel positive or negative energy. If your god is good or evil, you don't get to choose, and you can't change your mind later.
Cleric chooses to channel negatve energy against the living and that should damage (and fairly easily kill) the swarm. Unfortunately it will also affect all of my party members so they would have to stay more than 30 feet away or be prepared to accept the damage and heal themselves either during or after the encounter.
Yep - you could try to move first (perhaps even run through the swarm - it only deals damage when it ends its movement). That might get you far enough from your allies. You can also ready to channel after they get away from it.
Splash weapons like acid or alchemist fire work great as well (+50% damage!) - enjoy!
You can take Versatile Channeling so long as a) you are neutral and b) your deity is neutral (both along the good-evil axis). Then you can channel negative energy, though at a penalty.
You can take Versatile Channeling so long as a) you are neutral and b) your deity is neutral (both along the good-evil axis). Then you can channel negative energy, though at a penalty.
Absolutely, it's one of the added benefits of being neutral. Another benefit is, you aren't good so when the unholy blight spell comes your way you will take half or 1/4 of the damage depending on if you pass or fail. You will also be able to cast blasphemy, holyword, dictum, that chaotic one. (Word of Chaos or Chaos Hammer)
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The problem is they don't actually require different tactics.
They rely on the assumption that your party has a certain type of gear or a few select class features (AoE Blast spells, Negative Energy Channeling, or Alchemist Bombs).
The last 3 are out after character creation, and the first one isn't much of an option in this AP at all (since you're shipwrecked, and have a lovely chance to lose much of your gear at the start, so even if you buy some Alchemist's Fire with your starting wealth, it might just be washed away, and you have no way to purchase anything on the island).
Swarms suck. They suck hard, and long, and aren't very satisfying no matter how they finish.
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Well, just played out this encounter tonight. The swarm achieved surprise and had initiative higher than all the PCs. 5 out of 6 PCs managed to flee, but my fighter who went into the encounter with a bit of non-lethal damage (caused by having to fight another wandering monster 4 hours earlier in hot tropical conditions) ended up taking one for the team and was killed.
I'm playing this with 6 characters, so the adventure can continue with 5 without needing to do any fudging and they should actually progress more quickly now experience-wise.
I would like to inquire however if anyone knows the name of the individual who decided that it was a good idea to add swarms to the monster mix? I would love to have a friendly word with him.
That was the most unfun encounter I have ever encountered in an RPG. I can't see these being fun or interesting if the party wins - they are definitely no fun if the party gets hammered. So unfun across the board - why even have them?
Wait until you meet a leech swarm in a flooded corridor. Then you will have cause for lamentations. ;-)
2 dead level 6 characters and the XP of a CR 4 monster ....[It is a different AP, so hopefully you don't need to worry about that]
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The problem is they don't actually require different tactics.
They rely on the assumption that your party has a certain type of gear or a few select class features (AoE Blast spells, Negative Energy Channeling, or Alchemist Bombs).
The last 3 are out after character creation, and the first one isn't much of an option in this AP at all (since you're shipwrecked, and have a lovely chance to lose much of your gear at the start, so even if you buy some Alchemist's Fire with your starting wealth, it might just be washed away, and you have no way to purchase anything on the island).
Swarms suck. They suck hard, and long, and aren't very satisfying no matter how they finish.
With the Distraction ability if you are surprised by the swarm or it reach the caster there are good chances you will be unable to cast AoO spells.
Swarms possess the distraction universal monster rule. Spellcasting or concentrating on spells within the area of a swarm requires a caster level check (DC 20 + spell level). Using skills that involve patience and concentration requires a DC 20 Will save.
Note that this piece of text is in the Swarm subtype, not in the Distraction (Ex) ability linked to the leech swarm entry in the PRD, so the swarm have a stronger version of the ability.
Distraction (Ex) A creature with this ability can nauseate the creatures that it damages. Any living creature that takes damage from a creature with the distraction ability is nauseated for 1 round; a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 creature's HD + creature's Con modifier) negates the effect.Format: distraction (DC 14); Location: Special Attacks.
AFAIK only the swarms have this enhanced form of the ditraction ability.
Vermin repellent helps against most early swarms. The GM should be lenient and adjudicate that the swarm avoids the area unless directed by a caster or something. There are some improvised solutions that can work in some situations. I'd allow a Knowledge (nature) or Survival check to suggest situational tactics, such as lighting a smoky fire to repel vermin or swimming to escape. Of course, if it's PFS, then the table GM is limited to the usual tactics, I suppose.
It would be nice if there was a cantrip or orison that helped tip the scales a bit against swarms.
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Vermin repellent helps against most early swarms. The GM should be lenient and adjudicate that the swarm avoids the area unless directed by a caster or something. There are some improvised solutions that can work in some situations. I'd allow a Knowledge (nature) or Survival check to suggest situational tactics, such as lighting a smoky fire to repel vermin or swimming to escape. Of course, if it's PFS, then the table GM is limited to the usual tactics, I suppose.
It would be nice if there was a cantrip or orison that helped tip the scales a bit against swarms.
Well, if it is a landbound swarm, I would think create water would be a good orison...
Spark, as long as someone has poured oil into the swarm's square, would be a lot more reliable then most ways, besides the tindertwig, to light it on fire...
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Of course with a little luck this works.
"You have made too many requests for the same page too quickly.
Please wait a minute before trying again."
It seem there is some problem with your link.
"You have made too many requests for the same page too quickly.
Please wait a minute before trying again."
Same.
BRB telling KC we should all be dead now.
We got swarmed on in an ap by a swarm that was immune to fire. The encounter ended up taking us an hour and a half, and we finally trapped.the swarm in a chest of some kind (alchemical device if I remember right) and drug them out to the lake to drown them. We were level 6 or 7 at the time. Swarms can be a giant pain, especially if they are immune to the one aoe that you have.
Wait until you meet a leech swarm in a flooded corridor. Then you will have cause for lamentations. ;-)
2 dead level 6 characters and the XP of a CR 4 monster ....[It is a different AP, so hopefully you don't need to worry about that]
My players detected the pit trap the leeches were in and decided to open it to see if there was treasure inside.
There was, in a way. The dismay in their faces when the leeches boiled out and started draining them is a moment I’ll treasure forever.
Of course with a little luck this works.Link fixed.
/cevah
Mind telling me what was wrong with it so I get it right next time?
I wonder if Cause Fear would be effective, causing the vermin to run away in all directions and lose cohesion as a swarm.
Mind telling me what was wrong with it so I get it right next time?Of course with a little luck this works.Link fixed.
/cevah
As Rikkan said, you had too much text in the link. I usually either right click the timestamp of the post and use the submenu to copy the link, or ensure I open on the link and copy the text in the url field of my browser.
/cevah
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The problem is they don't actually require different tactics.
They rely on the assumption that your party has a certain type of gear or a few select class features (AoE Blast spells, Negative Energy Channeling, or Alchemist Bombs).
The last 3 are out after character creation, and the first one isn't much of an option in this AP at all (since you're shipwrecked, and have a lovely chance to lose much of your gear at the start, so even if you buy some Alchemist's Fire with your starting wealth, it might just be washed away, and you have no way to purchase anything on the island).
Swarms suck. They suck hard, and long, and aren't very satisfying no matter how they finish.
There are days I wonder if I'm the only GM who thinks 'the PCs aren't really able to cope with this kind of encounter, I'd better not use it' as opposed to 'teaching them a lesson'.
I wonder if Cause Fear would be effective, causing the vermin to run away in all directions and lose cohesion as a swarm.
Spider Swarm states:
Spider Swarm CR 1XP 400
N Diminutive vermin (swarm)
Vermin states:
Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms). Mindless creatures have no feats or skills. A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually either an animal or a magical beast, depending on its other abilities.
Cause Fear states:
School necromancy [emotion, fear, mind-affecting]
Answer: not effective.
However, I think there a feat or spell that allows you to affect vermin with mind-effecting stuff, but I cannot recall the name.
/cevah
It appears your Game Master made a mistake there. The swarm of diminutive beetles is immune to the direct damage off alchemist bombs.
Unless you can point to a FAQ, I'm going to have to disagree. However I can see that it might seem to be a logical deduction.
A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.
You seem to be arguing that the bold part makes them immune to hits by alchemist fire or alchemist's bombs, but allowing the bold/italic part to increase splash damage by 50%. Logical, but no.
Splash weapons deal +50% damage, not splash damage. This is specifically defining them as affecting an area.
Your argument is similar (not exactly the same) as arguing that flaming sphere wouldn't affect a swarm, since there is generally only one 'target' of the sphere at a time.
Does alchemist's fire effect an area?
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** spoiler omitted **Wait until you meet a leech swarm in a flooded corridor. Then you will have cause for lamentations. ;-)
2 dead level 6 characters and the XP of a CR 4 monster ....[It is a different AP, so hopefully you don't need to worry about that]
Exactly :-P
Swarm don't stack, they only cover a larger area when there is more than one, so the number had little effect.
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A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.You seem to be arguing that the bold part makes them immune to hits by alchemist fire or alchemist's bombs, but allowing the bold/italic part to increase splash damage by 50%. Logical, but no.
Splash weapons deal +50% damage, not splash damage. This is specifically defining them as affecting an area.
Your argument is similar (not exactly the same) as arguing that flaming sphere wouldn't affect a swarm, since there is generally only one 'target' of the sphere at a time.
That is not what it says. It says effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons deal +50% damage. Since the direct hit of a splash weapon does not do area damage and in fact the swarm type also notes it is immune to effects that target a specific number of creatures (like say a ranged touch attack).
So it is immune to the single target damage and takes normal damage +50% from the area splash damage.Flaming Sphere targets all creatures in its square, so functions completely differently. A better example would be disintegrate, which targets a single creature with a ranged touch.
Exactly like how the direct damage of a splash weapon works:
To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Thrown splash weapons require no weapon proficiency, so you don't take the –4 nonproficiency penalty. A hit deals direct hit damage to the target, and splash damage...
The splash weapon does not target a specific creature within the mass. It targets the mass itself and goes against the AC of the mass. It still takes direct Hit damage and takes another 50% of it as it is a splash weapon.
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As Gark said. It doesn't say creature it says target.
And the damage from bombs and alchemist's fire are not spells or effect. They are weapons. Throw Splash Weapons to be exact. Hence why they attack AC. Which do splash damage... hence all of the damage.. whether on a direct hit or surrounding splash... does an extra 50% damage.
Where does it say creature?A bit below that:
and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature.Not sure why that'd matter?
I mean for example Acid Splash, also uses a ranged touch attack to target a single target. Which while called 'splash' never even does any area damage.
Small problem. The spell Acid Splash has an Effect line but not a Target line. You get a missile.
You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage. This acid disappears after 1 round.
If your target is a component creature, what is the AC to hit? Some swarms are made of things not listed in the books, so this is not likely the meaning of the text "You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target.". Therefore the use of target would be the swarm as a whole and not a single creature within the swarm. Remember, swarms are treated as a single creature in some ways.
/cevah
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Where does it say creature?A bit below that:
and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature.Not sure why that'd matter?
I mean for example Acid Splash, also uses a ranged touch attack to target a single target. Which while called 'splash' never even does any area damage.
Small problem. The spell Acid Splash has an Effect line but not a Target line. You get a missile.
You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage. This acid disappears after 1 round.If your target is a component creature, what is the AC to hit? Some swarms are made of things not listed in the books, so this is not likely the meaning of the text "You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target.". Therefore the use of target would be the swarm as a whole and not a single creature within the swarm. Remember, swarms are treated as a single creature in some ways.
/cevah
Unfortunately acid splash indeed does not work. The swarm traits entry specifically calls out Disintegrate as an example of a spell that won't work on a swarm. Disintegrate has the same setup, there is no target line, only an effect line. Same for Scorching Ray. Swarms are immune to acid splash, the only spells it seems you can affect them with are spells that have a listed area or in the case of a hive mind swarm, mind affecting.
As Gark said. It doesn't say creature it says target.
And the damage from bombs and alchemist's fire are not spells or effect. They are weapons. Throw Splash Weapons to be exact. Hence why they attack AC. Which do splash damage... hence all of the damage.. whether on a direct hit or surrounding splash... does an extra 50% damage.
Exactly. And the language that swarms take +50% damage from splash weapons was written before there even was any splash weapons that did more than 1 point of splash. The subtype itself is specifically calling them out as vulnerable to this kind of attack. If swarms were immune to anything that required a touch attack (and everything that uses a touch attack references a 'target'), they wouldn't even need the entry in their stat block.
You're not targeting a single insect (component creature), you're targeting the biggest clump, etc.