Hello Paizo, this is my first post here and I was looking for some advice for a level 5 character I'm going to be rolling for the next game session my group is having (it's going to be a 25 point buy and we have 8000 starting gold).
I am going to be making a human fighter who goes with the TWF sword and shield style and I was wanting advice on what I should pick. I was thinking of the weapon master archetype and having scimitar be his main weapon and also having a spiked heavy steel Bashing shield.
I was thinking my feats would be something like this;
I picked Improved Sunder because I wanted to eventually make this guy a crit proc build with the scimitar (I would eventually take Improved Critical: Scimitar and pick up a critical feat) and also have the Sundering Strike feat so I can sunder on critical hits. But maybe there are better things I could do or maybe a better archetype. I like some of the things weapon masters get later on but maybe there's a better choice. What do you guys think? I'm still fairly new to this as well so maybe I overlooked something. Thanks in advance.
Quite possible the best archetype for a sword + shield build is the Rondolero Duelist. He fights with a falcata + buckler, and he can make shield bashes with bucklers, so he can still grab his sword with both hands for the standard action attacks.
If you can make patience up to the 7th lvl, the Thunderstriker also becomes an interesting archetype.
Use fill slots to round out the character as you see fit. You are TWF, don't take power attack/combat exp imo as they give -to hit. Power attack can work, but unless you are going maneuver heavy combat exp. doesn't offer much.
crit fisher builds work better with 2 weapons, but are viable sort of with this. I would suggest looking into something different for a crit fisher. That aside, a human point buy would look something like...
I thought more about it since I made this post. What if I just use the shield as my main hand and like a kukri in my off hand since its light? Or maybe a short sword or something? In that case I would look at the two-weapon fighter archetype. This game is only going to be with 3 players to start and maybe an NPC if the DM gives us one. It was going to be 5 but 2 players are going to be absent now.
Its going to be me, a rogue, and an alchemist. The rogue is going to go TWF with short swords I think. I figured if I can sunder weapons and be a threat the rogue would have an easier time flanking and I could make fights easier that way.
I second picking up a light shield, it minimizes the penalties for TWF and will probably hit just as hard as your scimitar on a non-critical. Though if you still want to go the route of making your shield your primary I would switch the feats around to make up for that.
If you really wanted to help the rogue out you could look at going down the dazzling display/shatter defenses line, that will help him a lot more than just sundering equipment in the long run. Looking into the teamwork feat outflank is worth considering as well. Though the rogue player might not be able to spare a feat.
A great combination is being a Brawler or a Viking fighter with a heavy shield + Cestus. This way you take full advantage of Shield master, you can hold your shield with both hands for standard action attacks and you also take the bonus damage of the close weapon group in the case of the Brawler fighter.
AS XMorsX mentioned, the Viking is a pretty great archetype for a sword and board character, with a lot of versatility and capability thrown in besides.
The Two Weapon Warrior is solid, as is the core Fighter chassis. There are so many feats involved in TWF with a shield that it's hard to do effectively with a class other than a Fighter, though Ranger can pull it off, and the Paladin or Cavalier can use their Smite/Challenge abilities to make up for whatever they couldn't squeeze in with feats.
Well my DM shot down my idea :(. He doesn't think Bashing stacks with shield spikes. He said he would allow it if I two handed the shield but he thinks its too powerful to use in TWF. I couldn't even make an argument for it.
Well my DM shot down my idea :(. He doesn't think Bashing stacks with shield spikes. He said he would allow it if I two handed the shield but he thinks its too powerful to use in TWF. I couldn't even make an argument for it.
Vs GMs that think that a couple of dice make for overpowered PCs, I suggest playing a straight Wizard or Sorcerer, or maybe a Samsaran wizard with summoner spells or a Half-elf oracle with paragorn surge and eldrich heritage (arcane).
A Come And Get Me barbarian with a two-handed weapon will also do the trick though.
I have to go with something like a fighter. We are going to have a summoner, a rogue, and apparently a bard since I just found out one of the absent players is going to be there. But yeah he wouldn't even let me make a case for it stacking. I'm thinking about just trying out a two handed paladin or something now. I'll probably be unoriginal and just pick falchion. Though maybe a scythe build could be interesting. I just need to research a good way to build a paladin. I've only played DnD/Pathfinder for a few months and only played a ranger and fighter so I have no clue how to build a good paladin.
I have to go with something like a fighter. We are going to have a summoner, a rogue, and apparently a bard since I just found out one of the absent players is going to be there. But yeah he wouldn't even let me make a case for it stacking. I'm thinking about just trying out a two handed paladin or something now. I'll probably be unoriginal and just pick falchion. Though maybe a scythe build could be interesting. I just need to research a good way to build a paladin. I've only played DnD/Pathfinder for a few months and only played a ranger and fighter so I have no clue how to build a good paladin.
Melee Paladins are dead simple. Take very high Strength and Charisma. Wear heavy armor. Buy Fey Foundling (if allowed/appropriate) buy Power Attack, use a two-handed weapon. Maybe take Oath of Vengeance if allowed. Go to town. You'll be solid against non-Evil foes and wreck anything you Smite.
1- Power Attack, Fey Foundling
3- Cleave
5- Extra Lay on Hands
I picked Cleave because I couldn't think of anything else. I picked Extra Lay on Hands for 5 because our group has no real healer so having extra ability to heal myself and maybe others if necessary could be good. With those stats I leave open the ability to take Unsanctioned Knowledge, and I get better smites with still good normal rolls. I thought about Furious Focus but then I realized I won't have an extra attack for a while on this guy. Any critiques or suggestions for stat tweaks or different feats I should take?
1- Power Attack, Fey Foundling
3- Cleave
5- Extra Lay on Hands
I picked Cleave because I couldn't think of anything else. I picked Extra Lay on Hands for 5 because our group has no real healer so having extra ability to heal myself and maybe others if necessary could be good. With those stats I leave open the ability to take Unsanctioned Knowledge, and I get better smites with still good normal rolls. I thought about Furious Focus but then I realized I won't have an extra attack for a while on this guy. Any critiques or suggestions for stat tweaks or different feats I should take?
1- Power Attack, Fey Foundling
3- Cleave
5- Extra Lay on Hands
I picked Cleave because I couldn't think of anything else. I picked Extra Lay on Hands for 5 because our group has no real healer so having extra ability to heal myself and maybe others if necessary could be good. With those stats I leave open the ability to take Unsanctioned Knowledge, and I get better smites with still good normal rolls. I thought about Furious Focus but then I realized I won't have an extra attack for a while on this guy. Any critiques or suggestions for stat tweaks or different feats I should take?
Cleave is a trap. Why not weapon focus? Or even better, eldritch heritage: Orc!
Well from what I could tell in other threads I looked at for Paladins, weapon focus wasn't recommended. I guess I can switch it out. I'm thinking about going with the scythe as my main weapon. I haven't looked at eldritch heritage before so I have no idea how that works.
edit: I forgot about Step Up. I'd probably pick that up later though and pick Weapon Focus over Cleave.
Step Up is probably better than Weapon Focus, but not as good as Eldritch Heritage. Of course, Eldritch Heritage requires a Skill Focus as a prerequisite...but it's still potentially worth it.
Improved Eldritch Heritage is the real draw, with Abyssal and Orc Bloodlines giving up to +6 Str as you level, and the Orc Bloodline's 15th level ability from Greater Eldritch Heritage is very good as well.
It really only pays off at high levels, but as you mentioned, Paladin Feat options are a trifle limited.
So the Eldritch Heritage stuff is more for things later on down the road it looks like. I don't know when it will be that we use these characters again. We're actually running 2 campaigns in our group. One guy DM's one game, and plays in the other, and then there is another guy who DM's another campaign and plays in the other DM's campaign. Both campaigns have our characters at level 11 and 10 respectively and both are going all the way to 20 as far as we've been told. I'll probably pick Step Up just to annoy any potential ranged enemies or spellcasters if we get any of those thrown our way.
As far as the scythe goes, I would pick falchion but I decided against it since my two handed fighter in one game is using one and I picked up one on my other character in the other game. The DM wanted us to pick something new for this campaign so I figured having a weapon with 2 different attack types and a x4 critical could be fun.
edit: By the way I appreciate all the help for this newbie.
I just realized I forgot about traits. There's always the +2 initiative traits but I'm thinking more like Dangerously Curious so that I get Use Magic Device as a class skill for the ability to use wands. I'm not sure which would be better. I'm leaning more towards Dangerously Curious.
I just realized I forgot about traits. There's always the +2 initiative traits but I'm thinking more like Dangerously Curious so that I get Use Magic Device as a class skill for the ability to use wands. I'm not sure which would be better. I'm leaning more towards Dangerously Curious.
As a Human Paladin, you'll actually have some skill points, so Dangerously Curious is solid. But...don't you get two Traits? That's the way things usually work, and then you could grab both.
No, the DM only allowed one for some reason. He also said no craft wondrous items. I'm not sure if that means no wondrous items period (I really hope not) or just only from certain things like loot.
No, the DM only allowed one for some reason. He also said no craft wondrous items. I'm not sure if that means no wondrous items period (I really hope not) or just only from certain things like loot.
Almost certainly just the Feat. It's commonly taken and potentially abusable.
And in that case, I'd go with Dangerously curious if you feel like it, though any Wand on the Paladin spell list will already be available to you (Cure Light Wounds wands are a favorite).
Yeah I've looked at those on my ranger. That campaign has a cleric though so its not really necessary there. Having those in addition to lay on hands and channel energy could he nice. But also having access to lead blades or something when combat is certain would be nice.
Yeah I've looked at those on my ranger. That campaign has a cleric though so its not really necessary there. Having those in addition to lay on hands and channel energy could he nice. But also having access to lead blades or something when combat is certain would be nice.
That's true. Wands of Shield are also phenomenally cool if you have time to buff.
With that you can use a free action to grip a two handed weapon in one hand to be able to get the shield bonus right?
Actually, the spell creates an invisible hovering shield...so you don't even need to do that for the spell (though you can for other things that necessitate hands like Lay on Hands).
+4 AC is almost always worth 15 gp past the first few levels...though often not worth an action, so it's best as a pre-battle buff.
Have you considered Thunder and Fang? It lets you use Earthbreaker hammer in 1 hand and a klar (a light shield with an extra big spike) in the other. I had an idea for a build using Bull Rushing.
3R2Fighter1: Weapon Focus Earthbreaker, Thunder and Fang (a very powerful weapon combination: 2d6 for the hammer, 1d6 for the shield. I’d be tempted to take the 2 weapon fighter archetype and at level 11 use 2 Earthbreaker hammers!)
4R2F2: Power Attack
5R2F3: Improved Bull Rush
6R2F4: Shield Slam: free bull rush with every shield bash (you need a BAB of +6 for this)
7R2F5: Spiked Destroyer: free armor spike attack with every bull rush 8R2F6: Greater Bull Rush: All your allies get A of O’s when you bull rush opponents out of threatened squares
9R2F6Cavalier1: Order of the Seal (Free bull rush or trip with every full attack against your Challenge Opponent), Tactician (Everyone gets the), Paired Opportunist (feat, so now you get the AofO, too.)
So at Level 9, your full attack looks like this:
Hammer, shield, bull rush, attacks of opportunity all around (hammer for you), armor spike, bull rush, A of O’s all around (hammer for you), armor spike.
With that you can use a free action to grip a two handed weapon in one hand to be able to get the shield bonus right?
Actually, the spell creates an invisible hovering shield...so you don't even need to do that for the spell (though you can for other things that necessitate hands like Lay on Hands).
+4 AC is almost always worth 15 gp past the first few levels...though often not worth an action, so it's best as a pre-battle buff.
Yeah definitely. Though I figure since I only have one attack a round currently I afford to spend a turn on it since its likely that I won't be losing an attack due to being out of range.
Well my DM shot down my idea :(. He doesn't think Bashing stacks with shield spikes. He said he would allow it if I two handed the shield but he thinks its too powerful to use in TWF. I couldn't even make an argument for it.
I don't understand. He thinks you can't use shield spikes in a shield bash? What does he think shield spikes are for?
He thinks that the shield spike damage increase doesn't stack with bashing and that the shield wouldn't be a 2D6 weapon. He thinks that is too powerful. Maybe he doesn't realize how feat intensive it is, not to mention stat requirements and the money cost.
He thinks that the shield spike damage increase doesn't stack with bashing and that the shield wouldn't be a 2D6 weapon. He thinks that is too powerful. Maybe he doesn't realize how feat intensive it is, not to mention stat requirements and the money cost.
Hm, if I understand you correctly, I think I agree with your DM.
In the Core Rulebook, the list of weapons has a light shield as being a light weapon that does 1d3, a light spiked shield as being a light weapon that does 1d4, a klar as being a one handed weapon that does 1d6, a heavy shield as a 1 handed weapon that does 1d4, and a heavy spiked shield as a 1 handed weapon that does 1d6. I always thought that these were the damage ratings of these shields when used to shield bash.
The character build I offered you above went with the assumption that the klar would do just 1d6.
But I'd be interested in hearing how you would make your shield a 2d6 weapon.
Something I just thought of: have you considered a scizore? They have shield-like qualities. They are Martial weapons. They do 1d10, and they give a +1 shield bonus to AC. They do impose a -1 attack penalty, but in raw statistics they seem to compare favorably with other weapons like a long sword. Compared with a long sword, a scizore has -1 attack, +1 damage, and +1AC. Also, it has a lower threat range, but I confess that I have never been a fan of crit. builds.
Also, something I forgot to ask. Is this Level 5 character beginning a new campaign, or is this a 1 shot adventure?
I saw you like Improved Sunder. I would like to do a Sundering build if I could tailor make a magic item, say through the Master Craftsman or Ancestral Relic (3.5e) feats.
I would make a +1 adamantine weapon that would combine the Shatterspike and 'of the Titans feats. The Maul of the Titans is a very old and unused magic weapon. Currently, it is a +3 Great Club that does triple damage against inanimate objects. Just think what that would do if you took Great Sunder! A +3 enchantment costs 18,000gp, though, you'd save a lot of money if you just made it +1. Combining that with the Shatterspike imposes a 50% price increase on the lowest cost one. Shatterspike is a 2000gp enchantment, so the combiniation costs an extra 1000.
He thinks that the shield spike damage increase doesn't stack with bashing and that the shield wouldn't be a 2D6 weapon. He thinks that is too powerful. Maybe he doesn't realize how feat intensive it is, not to mention stat requirements and the money cost.
Hm, if I understand you correctly, I think I agree with your DM.
In the Core Rulebook, the list of weapons has a light shield as being a light weapon that does 1d3, a light spiked shield as being a light weapon that does 1d4, a klar as being a one handed weapon that does 1d6, a heavy shield as a 1 handed weapon that does 1d4, and a heavy spiked shield as a 1 handed weapon that does 1d6. I always thought that these were the damage ratings of these shields when used to shield bash.
The character build I offered you above went with the assumption that the klar would do just 1d6.
But I'd be interested in hearing how you would make your shield a 2d6 weapon.
Something I just thought of: have you considered a scizore? They have shield-like qualities. They are Martial weapons. They do 1d10, and they give a +1 shield bonus to AC. They do impose a -1 attack penalty, but in raw statistics they seem to compare favorably with other weapons like a long sword. Compared with a long sword, a scizore has -1 attack, +1 damage, and +1AC. Also, it has a lower threat range, but I confess that I have never been a fan of crit. builds.
Also, something I forgot to ask. Is this Level 5 character beginning a new campaign, or is this a 1 shot adventure?
The heavy spiked shield is 1D6, and the Bashing property makes your shield's damage dice be as if it were 2 size categories larger therefore 1D6>1D8>2D6. Most people seemed to agree it would work based on what I saw in other threads from the past. Also, this is a new campaign that we are playing one session in and then we are switching back to one of our other games and we won't revisit these characters until we finish one of our other games.
Well my DM shot down my idea :(. He doesn't think Bashing stacks with shield spikes. He said he would allow it if I two handed the shield but he thinks its too powerful to use in TWF. I couldn't even make an argument for it.
Bashing and a shield spike do not typically work together....No worries tho...The enlarge spell will help raise your damage Dice on your shield. Bashing makes your Light Steel shield 1d6.....Enlarging you will make it 1d8 damage. Seems good enough to me to not make this even an issue. Not to mention you will only be swinging your shield a handful of times because typically you will have to move.
I will give you my Defender of the Weak Sword and Shield Build as well as a Decent 2 Handed Paladin. Either build would be good. I always rank classes with magic Higher then classes without magic. So I guess Here we go.
Defender of the Weak A.K.A Sword and Board 2 Weapon Warrior:
20 point buy: Human +2 already in STR
str:18 Dex:16 Con:14 Int:7 Wis:13 Cha:7
2 weapon warrior Archetype
Feats:
H: Two Weapon Fighting
1-Improved Shield Bash
1-Power Attack (for the times hitting is easy or your only swinging MH)
2-Iron Will
3-Combat Reflexes
4-Step Up/ Body Guard/ Blind Fight/ Toughness (filler feat)
5-Improved Bull Rush
6-Improved 2 weapon fighting
7-Shield Slam
8-Double Slice
9-Greater Bull Rush
10-Critical Focus
11-Shield Mastery
12-Bashing Finish
13-Improved Iron Will (or Filler if you don't like saves)
14-Two Weapon Rend
15- Critical Versatility (or Crit feat of choice)
I recommend a Long Sword and a Spiked shield till you get a bashing shield. If you make it to high Levels then you can go Keened Scimitar and go the Crit route but if your going to be level 14 and Under I highly recommend Long sword over a Scimitar. If you get into higher levels then the Crit feats come online and your better off with a scimitar, Kukuri, or rapier.
Power attack is in there for when your just swinging your MH weapon or if the Monsters AC is low enough to apply it to 2 weapon fighting. I really don't have problems hitting tho. It adds that extra damage to make your guy seem like a real threat.
I choose Bull Rush because it is the Combat maneuver that works on the most critters and it ages well. Also you can provoke Attack of Opportunity from your Team mates as well as push Things around the Battle Field away from the group or into a wall (Blade Barrier I'm looking at you).
Remember Enlarge Person to help you bull-rush and to increase your weapon sizes...Your Long Sword becomes a Great Sword and your Shield Becomes a Long Sword Damage wise....Honestly that is pretty scary.
The point of the Archetype is to overcome the weaknesses of 2 weapon fighting. A.k.A get more attacks with off hand weapon.
Double Strike and Equal Opportunity both make it so you swing both weapons regularly.
Your AC will be awesome with Defensive Flurry.
@ 17 you get Deft Doublestrike which allows you to do a free disarm or sunder without Provoking a attack of Oppurtunity (I know you like sunder) You receive the ability to do both without a feat.
Ok so I promised a Good 2 Handed Paladin Build so here that is:
Destroyer of Evil:
Races: Human (extra Feat)
Half-elf (Elvan Curved Blade + Paragon Surge(extra feat late game)
Aasimar (Angel-blooded for +2 to Str & Cha as well as other abilities)
20 point Buy: No racial Added...Put into Str so you start with 18 Str for swinging that 2 handed weapon.
Archetype: Oath of Vengeance
Motto: Swift Death to Evil
Str: 16 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 15
Feats:
H- Fey Fondling (Not necessary but a good 1st level feat for human paladins)
1- Power attack (your only Core feat)
3- Weapon Focus
5- Extra Lay on Hands
7- Vital Strike
9- Critical Focus (Buy Keen, Bond it, or if Half-elf Paragon Surge it)
11- Improved Vital Strike
13- Critical Feat of Choice (or Strike Back)(filler)
15- Critical Feat of Choice (filler)
17- Greater Vital Strike
If you choose the Half Elf and Get paragon Surge then you will have access to all the critical feats you need and can Fill those feats up with something Else. You can pick the best of them on the fly or get the next step of the Critical chain. I honestly think Half Elf is a Strong Choice most players overlook but mostly because games don't get to those high of levels.
Ponmbr, I was just reading about Bashing. I look forward to using it. I think your interpretation is more according to RAW than your DM's. I guess the DM is just worried about your character being too high powered.
Let’s find a workaround. Somebody mentioned Enlarge Person. That’s good for a start. I recommend you take some levels in a class that has a spell list with EP. Somebody else in addition to me recommended Bull Rushing. Bull Rush has the disadvantage of a size limit: You can’t bull rush somebody more than 1 size bigger than you, so Enlarge Person has the added advantage of increasing the number of opponents you can bull rush. I recommend Magus or Alchemist to gain access to EP. My build already calls for levels in Ranger. You can use ranger wands with even 1 level in ranger. Get a Wand of Lead Blades. Lead Blades makes your weapons deal damage as if they were 1 size bigger, and Lead Blades will stack with Enlarge Person, but probably wouldn’t stack with the Bashing enchantment anyway.
You could get the Impact enchantment on your shield spikes. That makes a weapon inflict damage as if it were 1 size bigger. It’s expensive, but probably worth it. Maybe not, because it’s a +2 equivalent. For a shield spike or a scimitar, that’s only +1 damage. For an Earthbreaker, it’s 1d6. But the Holy and Axiomatic enchantments are also +2 equivalents and add 2d6 each.
In the campaign these characters are going to be in, I learned wands are going to be incredibly rare as will magic apparently. I'm just going to stick with the paladin.
Ponmbr, then the Bashing enchantment is off the table for 2 reasons. Anyway, hope I helped. If I have any more ideas, I'll share them. Good luck with your character, and have fun in your campaign.
Well the first and last session with these characters for a while went fairly well. Fought a few encounters and did some massive damage thanks to smite evil and Divine Bond against a troll. I'm not really sure how well this party will do as a group considering we have an alchemist who made a deal with a demon, a rogue, a bard who, for no reason decided he was a klepto, and me the Paladin. I'll have to try and be the paladin who takes the moral high ground and wishes for but doesn't expect for his party to be like him I suppose.
That sounds like it could be a fun dynamic. You'll be the schoolteacher of an unruly class. You'll be bailing the bard out of jail and paying off his gambling debts. The Alchemist will come up with the extra money. You'll suspect something, but he won't tell you that behind your back he was extorting the villagers you were all supposed to be helping, or maybe he's secretly making drugs that the bard has been selling.
They'll be there for you when you need them because you give them a respectable front. You'll do your good work as your companions keep helping themselves. And you will try t police them.
Has a spiked bashing shield that does 2d6 damage, from a paizo source. I believe there is another NPC that has that, but I couldn't find it.
For shield builds I recommend Ranger (or Slayer) and 2 handing it. Its a little slow to start, but at level 6 you get shield master(without the worthless prerequisites) and its all up from there. Nothings as awesome as having a +5 weapon & Shield for the low price of 36,000k! Then you can enchant the weapon side of up to +5 bonuses (though you have to buy a worthless +1 first, so +6 total) for 72K. You end up getting a +10 2d6 weapon for 108k, a little over half its normal cost. Sure, your crit range is 20, but its still awesome. If your a ranger add bane (same as highest favored enemy) and once you get instant enemy you'll tear it up.
I've also seen good effects with dual wielding Klars, though its more expensive to get going, both in cash and feats.
That sounds like it could be a fun dynamic. You'll be the schoolteacher of an unruly class. You'll be bailing the bard out of jail and paying off his gambling debts. The Alchemist will come up with the extra money. You'll suspect something, but he won't tell you that behind your back he was extorting the villagers you were all supposed to be helping, or maybe he's secretly making drugs that the bard has been selling.
They'll be there for you when you need them because you give them a respectable front. You'll do your good work as your companions keep helping themselves. And you will try t police them.
Good luck!
I've already overheard the alchemist and bard talking about extorting townsfolk with potions as drugs or something. This is going to be an experience anyway.
I did this build and used the "brawler" archetype for fighters. Heavy shield I usually 2 hand, and when I decide to actually use TWF I offhand armor spike attacks.
Both weapons are in the "close" group so they get all the bonuses from the brawlers buffs (+3 dmg, and +1 to hit as soon as the bonuses roll in) . Don't worry if your GM wont let the bashing and shield spike stack, most damage comes from power attacking and str bonuses anyways.
Go for the shield bash line stuff. Free bull rushes, pick up spiked destroyer, free spiked armor attack on bull rush. Push em into a wall they go prone. Spiked armor attacks get bonus from power attack since its a "on for the round" type ability.
Menacing from Brawler is awesome, add in disruptive feat (whatever its called) for another +4 against casters defensive casting, for a total of +8. Then step up. Brawler gets another class ability so that people flat out can not withdraw or 5foot step around him without taking a hit.
Get into a fight and rush the caster. You can pretty much lock down the most dangerous element for the whole fight. Good AC from buffing a heavy shield, good damage from all the close weapon group bonuses and power attacking. You protect your teammates simply by being a huge threat and not letting anyone move past you without taking a huge risk in doing so.
Design Manager
