Druids and their power level

[David Bowles]

Does anyone else find the combination of 9-level spell caster, spontaneous summons, wild shape, and 2nd PC in the form of animal companion to be very overpowered? Particularly for PFS games?

[Zhayne]

I'd say everybody has found that to be true.

[Forrestfire]

Yes, druids are considered to be one of the best classes in the game, in the realm of "overpowered" along with all the other full casters.

[Anzyr]

Have been since their rework in 3.5 and last I heard they aimed to continue being so.

[David Bowles]

Forrestfire wrote:

Yes, druids are considered to be one of the best classes in the game, in the realm of "overpowered" along with all the other full casters.

Other full casters do run out of steam eventually, whereas the companions has endless melee attacks.

[Marthkus]

Druids power level is such as to instill a respect for nature among the players of PF and 3.x. It's all an environmentalist ploy to get tabletop players to conserve paper.

[Rub-Eta]

You really can't have both spontaneous summons and all spells (since you discard spells to use spontaneous summoning). I've also heard that Druids have the weakest spell list of all the full casters. And also, I've heard that you can't really be great at spells AND also be great with wild shape and animal companion.

With that said: Yes, it's a very powerfull class.

The animal companion alone is really great. I'm playing an Inquisitor with Feather Domain (+ Boon companion). My kitty is probably the third best fighter in out party (after our MAD composite bow fighter and me).

[pauljathome]

Druids are definitely a very powerful class. Up to about level 8 or so they're probably a contender for the most powerful class (only a contender, its very arguable).

But beyond that, while still staying very powerful, they pretty clearly start to lose ground to the other full spell casters. Wizards and sorcerers still pretty much rule, especially if twinked out.

I know that the OP absolutely loathes animal companions and I think that is slanting his opinion. Especially now that oracles, sorcerors, etc can all get companions these days.

One place where they DO excel is in how easy it is to build a good druid. Obviously system mastery is still rewarded but it is pretty hard to build a druid who isn't quite decent.

[BillyGoat]

Speaking only to what I've seen in my years playing 3.5/PF, I can honestly say that the druids I've dealt with have never been more powerful than psions, wizards, sorcs, or summoners.

In my current group, both the druid & the summoner pale in comparison to the barbarian most of the time (at least until the druid gets sick of his enemies and pops Call Lightning).

Granted, that's underestimating the value they provide in terms of buffs to the barbarian, cavalier, & magus.

Full disclosure: the magus has minimal system mastery & should probably be playing a simpler class. The same is probably true of the summoner, but she does keep her ground sufficiently well.

None of our group is interested in serious optimization, though. Those who have a good grasp of system mastery have basically used it to get to what they want their character to be good at quickly & then held their power levels at "in range of the rest of the group & the GM's encounter design".

Before she comments:

Yes, there's also the cleric/sorc, but she's kind of in the middle-range of power, so not worth mentioning. Darn forum lurker...

[Marthkus]

Personally I think Human superstitious invulnerable rager pouncing come and get me barbars are more of a problem than druids.

Sure druids do like everything, but everything they do is fair.

[LazarX]

David Bowles wrote:

Does anyone else find the combination of 9-level spell caster, spontaneous summons, wild shape, and 2nd PC in the form of animal companion to be very overpowered? Particularly for PFS games?

I've yet to see 9th level spellcasting by players be an issue in PFS games, considering standard scenario play caps at 12th level.

[666bender]

Marthkus wrote:

Personally I think Human superstitious invulnerable rager pouncing come and get me barbars are more of a problem than druids.

Sure druids do like everything, but everything they do is fair.

yes, barb are powerfull, but also has issues...

when hurt they cant get healed (cause of the super auto save) and they cant stop raging (cause the HP drop will kill them).
it is true, that they are rarley hurt.... but when they do - they die.

[666bender]

druids are stringer in places where :
1) there are multi number of fights with little resting between them, making other caster less potent
2) the lower the magic world is the greater they are, since in places you cant buy magical items - and finding them is rarer - the classes that are more versitile become gods.

i play now a saurian level 4 druid, and i disagree they cant be great casters and fighters.
when i play a druid i NEVER max abilities, thatwill make a super druid but in one field. i rather be the 2-3 best fighter AND the 2-3 best caster at the same time. abilities are mostly like : 16 14 14 10 16 10
upping wis as levels grow cause spells > melle at highter levels.
with base of 16, no items, with wild shape you get 20-22 str.
with bull str add 4 more.

a good druid will always learn how to scribe scrolls, to have aces in his sleeves.

every combat i evaluate the area and the fight. i use wild shape to fight, and spells when the timer is over.
memorize is always a combo of battle shape spells like entangle, stone call etc, and pure DR penetrators like produce flame and frost bite.
if we are at a corridor where i cant reach, i summon, mostly a earth elemental - he aint great but hold a flank and he aid (i speak terran) to boost the fighter.
i use aspect of the bear on my TREX - to add maneuvers and use grapple on caster foes.

am i over powered? no. i dont bother or cause pain to the DM, but i can ALWAYS do something.... ALWAYS.

i even took a trait do give me diplomacy and i plan to learn some stealth so i can do stuff of combat (tracking master + scouting + info gather) . all and all - super fun to play.

[Ascalaphus]

If more than half the classes are overpowered, doesn't mean that they're actually the norm and the rest is underpowered?

[Umbranus]

David Bowles wrote:

Forrestfire wrote:

Yes, druids are considered to be one of the best classes in the game, in the realm of "overpowered" along with all the other full casters.

Other full casters do run out of steam eventually, whereas the companions has endless melee attacks.

Other full casters can get an AC as a class feature, too. They need a feat to raise it to full but they get it.

Yes, druids are strong but not that much, if at all, stronger than the other full casters.

[Shadowdweller]

One major component of druid imbalance: GMs who let players direct 2-intelligence animal companions and summons with pinpoint accuracy.

[David Bowles]

pauljathome wrote:

Druids are definitely a very powerful class. Up to about level 8 or so they're probably a contender for the most powerful class (only a contender, its very arguable).

But beyond that, while still staying very powerful, they pretty clearly start to lose ground to the other full spell casters. Wizards and sorcerers still pretty much rule, especially if twinked out.

I know that the OP absolutely loathes animal companions and I think that is slanting his opinion. Especially now that oracles, sorcerors, etc can all get companions these days.

One place where they DO excel is in how easy it is to build a good druid. Obviously system mastery is still rewarded but it is pretty hard to build a druid who isn't quite decent.

That's why I asked for additional input. It doesn't seem like druids give up enough to get the animal companion, which is like a 2nd PC. They lose no spell casting and have a very good class feature in wild shape. Summoners can't even use some of their class features while the eidolon is active.

[David Bowles]

LazarX wrote:

David Bowles wrote:

Does anyone else find the combination of 9-level spell caster, spontaneous summons, wild shape, and 2nd PC in the form of animal companion to be very overpowered? Particularly for PFS games?

I've yet to see 9th level spellcasting by players be an issue in PFS games, considering standard scenario play caps at 12th level.

They do get access to 6th level spells, while 6-level casters are stuck at 4th level spells. That's what I'm referring to.

[Deadmanwalking]

David Bowles wrote:

That's why I asked for additional input. It doesn't seem like druids give up enough to get the animal companion, which is like a 2nd PC. They lose no spell casting and have a very good class feature in wild shape.

They actually lose a spell per day per level from not having a Domain. And have what's probably the weakest 9 level spell list in the game. So they do indeed lose some spell casting for Wild Shape and their pet.

David Bowles wrote:

Summoners can't even use some of their class features while the eidolon is active.

First, Eidolons are vastly more powerful than Animal Companions. Second, the only Class Feature they lose is Summon Monster.

[LazarX]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

David Bowles wrote:

That's why I asked for additional input. It doesn't seem like druids give up enough to get the animal companion, which is like a 2nd PC. They lose no spell casting and have a very good class feature in wild shape.

They actually lose a spell per day per level from not having a Domain. And have what's probably the weakest 9 level spell list in the game. So they do indeed lose some spell casting for Wild Shape and their pet.

David Bowles wrote:

Summoners can't even use some of their class features while the eidolon is active.

First, Eidolons are vastly more powerful than Animal Companions. Second, the only Class Feature they lose is Summon Monster.

Summoners can choose to learn Summon Monster spells enabling them to have summon monster WITH their eidolon out by using spell slots the standard way.

[LazarX]

David Bowles wrote:

LazarX wrote:

David Bowles wrote:

Does anyone else find the combination of 9-level spell caster, spontaneous summons, wild shape, and 2nd PC in the form of animal companion to be very overpowered? Particularly for PFS games?

I've yet to see 9th level spellcasting by players be an issue in PFS games, considering standard scenario play caps at 12th level.

They do get access to 6th level spells, while 6-level casters are stuck at 4th level spells. That's what I'm referring to.

Those "4th level" spells for Summoners include Summon Monster V, and Teleport. Trust me, Summoners aren't losing out to Druids when it comes to spells. And my eidolon comes far closer to being a second PC then an Animal companion does on it's best day.

[Ascalaphus]

The AC is like a second PC with 2/3rds your level, using only Animal HD with a few special abilities instead of class levels. And it doesn't get its own WBL.

[K177Y C47]

If you want a nature-y guy I think the First Worlder is almost better than the druid at damn near everything. The First Worlder's pet is MUCH stronger than the AC (and it is the weakest eidolon), the First Worlder is better at SNA than a druid (they add things like Unicorns on their list of summons), and they have a much stronger spell list (even though they are 6 level casters). Oh! And Gate.... spamming Gate... they can do that...

[LazarX]

K177Y C47 wrote:

If you want a nature-y guy I think the First Worlder is almost better than the druid at damn near everything. The First Worlder's pet is MUCH stronger than the AC (and it is the weakest eidolon), the First Worlder is better at SNA than a druid (they add things like Unicorns on their list of summons), and they have a much stronger spell list (even though they are 6 level casters). Oh! And Gate.... spamming Gate... they can do that...

My spouse has played Druids in both LSJ and Pathfinder, extremely memorable and very different characters. In PFS he dropped the AC entirely to embrace Flame and few opera houses and bars have remained standing behind him.

In LSJ his former animal companion, Ivythorn, has become a famous NPC adventurer in his own right.

[wraithstrike]

Powerful yes,OP no. Classes can't really be OP, but characters can.

Why-->Because you can have a ____ that just sucks, no matter what the class is. If the class itself was OP then it would always be OP.

Now are some classes easier to use with a lower level of system mastery? Sure.

OP=nobody can handle it without houserules. At best it can only be OP for a certain group, and in that case adjust it for your group.