how to deal with druid / earthlide.....


Advice

Dark Archive

any tips on how to deal with a player with a druid character
that spams elemental and uses elemental shape to bypass traps and such
via earth glide ability.

i dont want to say he cheats... but good lord he abuses the rules.

I dont allow it but another gm was allowing him to use para-elemental (mud,ect)

this game he was wanting to scout ahead every room in elemental form(earth glide) in a dungeon. this theory is that he can peek out and no one can see/attack him b/c he is in the wall?

getting frustrated...


He doesn't have any ability to see through the rock, so he has to poke his head out. He has cover (most of him IS in theground) but its still a stealth check to not be noticed.

There are VERY few ways to actually hurt a druid doing this: the ground blocks LOS and LOE so you have to see him, then nail him with a one shot before he can sink into the ground again.

Pray for bad guys in wooden buildings.


Or with underground layers reinforced with metal bars.


Well, not sure what level, but it is using one of the charater's wild shape uses per day. So one option is to throw more combat at the party. They may start to wish they hadn't wasted the wild shape.

Other options include having the character encounter:

Underground reservoirs of water or underground rivers

Hot steam geysers

Magma

Rooms lined with a cheap metal (lead, tin, etc)

Something interesting.... Oops, it was explosive runes.

An enemy which would have been unaware of the party, but now has several round to buff.

An enemy druid (at a CR appropriate for the party)

Monsters that can chase the druid with burrow or earthglide.

Or... You can do the opposite. Have the rest of the party experience combat while the druid is off scouting. Let's face it, combat is fun, and part of the reason people play.

I wouldn't "punish" the player, but dungeons are dangerous, and there are several good reasons why it is generally not wise to split the party.


Jason you are in the PFS forum so none of those are really options. Earth Glide is a really powerful ability and there is little that most opponents can do to stop it. The main issue will be if you get spotted while sneaking about. Even though you might look like a small rock man enemies will still be alerted and it may well trigger things to begin preparing for an assault. I will pretty much always pick up Elemental Body I on a sorcerer, fly, swim, earth glide and stat boosts all in one spell are very hard to turn down.

Also this really is not abusing the rules, it is simply using those available to his class. Getting para elemental forms is however right out.

Paizo Employee Developer

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His theory that no one can see him is only true if he has taken special precautions to avoid being seen—more than just using earth glide. Peeking out of the wall involves a chance for the room's occupants to detect him with a number of senses, so make sure he's making a Stealth check as appropriate. Remember that creatures with tremorsense will be able to sense him, and once he begins to peek out of the wall, creatures with blindsense and blindsight are also likely to spot him. Since he almost certainly lacks tremorsense (unless he's a druid with the caves terrain domain?), he'll need to pop his head out of the wall to perceive much of anything.

I would give him cover or improved cover at your discretion, depending on how he approaches this scouting. Using the incorporeal monster ability (Bestiary 301) as a model, it seems that cover is what is associate with a wall-lurking creature on the offensive.

Also, note that elemental body only provides rules for the core four elemental types. Until such a time as we have rules for other elementals (mud, magma, etc.), a druid cannot assume their forms.

My experience with a druid who sneaks:
I enjoy playing druids, and my storm druid tends to do a lot of scouting; however, he has also invested a considerable amount in this pursuit. He uses wild shape to become a small earth elemental, has a Stealth bonus in the low 20's, often gets some help to turn invisible, casts negate aroma, and then casts gaseous form in case there's anything ahead that's not dirt/stone that he wants to slip past. Even then, he gets spotted on occasion.

The no-see-um approach that I'm considering for another character involves being a cave druid (invisible to tremorsense) with Dampen Presence ("immune" to blindsense and blindsight), Hellcat Stealth, and negate aroma. That might be overkill, but I enjoy being great at scouting.

Sometimes a scenario will include one or more threats that will make his life very tough—such as a pack of bigger and badder earth elementals that snatch him under 20 feet of stone. Enemies who spot him might begin preparing for combat earlier than normal. For the other times, as long as he's minding the points I mentioned above, I would let him enjoy his trick.


Erm, Gaseous Form removes your SU abilities which would include Wild Shape. I don't think the two work together at all well.

I am however liking Negate Aroma and not being a personal spell you could grab potions of it if you cannot cast it!

Paizo Employee Developer

andreww wrote:

Erm, Gaseous Form removes your SU abilities which would include Wild Shape. I don't think the two work together at all well.

I am however liking Negate Aroma and not being a personal spell you could grab potions of it if you cannot cast it!

In response:
Thank goodness earth glide is an extraordinary ability! Whether or not casting gaseous form after wild shaping would end the wild shape is a curious corner case that I haven't considered much; it might just mean that further use of wild shape in unavailable (i.e. he couldn't change forms) until he's solid once more. Fortunately, using that spell is a minor component of the character's scouting.

Spoiler:
I am fairly sure if you lose access to your SU abilities you cannot continue to use them. I would be inclined to say that it takes you out of wild shape but hey, you are one of the rules guys so what do I know...:)

Also, why are we using spoiler tags?


andreww wrote:

Jason you are in the PFS forum so none of those are really options. Earth Glide is a really powerful ability and there is little that most opponents can do to stop it. The main issue will be if you get spotted while sneaking about. Even though you might look like a small rock man enemies will still be alerted and it may well trigger things to begin preparing for an assault. I will pretty much always pick up Elemental Body I on a sorcerer, fly, swim, earth glide and stat boosts all in one spell are very hard to turn down.

Also this really is not abusing the rules, it is simply using those available to his class. Getting para elemental forms is however right out.

Oops, I missed that. For some reason, I thought this was a general advice forum. I've never played PCS, but I understand that the GMs have to run the adventure as written.

In that case, yeah, alerting the enemies and allowing them time to buff might be your best option.

Paizo Employee Developer

andreww wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

Also, why are we using spoiler tags?

To minimize thread derailment. The thread's about handling druid earth elementals in general and not about my particular druid.


Spoiler:
A fair point. I did recently see a reference to a shadow druid archetype I think which gave them access to invisibility. I cannot for the life of me find it so I have no idea if it is legal but it might be an interesting way of giving you an independent means of improving stealth. Invisibility and Greater Invisibility are both also Inquisitor spells so a Samsaran Druid could poach them with Mystic Past Life. They even have decent stat modifiers for a druid. You would have to make them legal first of course but you could do that with the right boon...:)


Hmm, to get back to the question I might also be more inclined to allow an enemy who had spotted the gliding druid a surprise round if they have time to prepare and lay an ambush. I wouldn't want to go overboard as stealth and reconnaissance can be hard enough in PFS but with the right enemy it might well be an option.

Paizo Employee Developer

A particularly smart enemy might even spot the druid but feign ignorance to lure her closer or make the druid think that she had avoided notice. Bluff's a great skill, and Sense Motive doesn't go above +10 on most druids.

Eyes of the Ten:
A particular ape spellcaster using true seeing spotted an incorporeal, invisible ninja PC as she crept around that last room. The rather skeletal ape played dumb for a few seconds before reaching out and backhanding the interloper into paralysis.


While it may not be a class skill my experience has tended to be that it is one which casting/summoning focused Druids invest in. It complements their high Wisdom so well it is hard to ignore as an option. Much less so for those who go the melee brute route but for caster focused ones it, along with perception, is a strong choice.

The Exchange

John Compton wrote:

A particularly smart enemy might even spot the druid but feign ignorance to lure her closer or make the druid think that she had avoided notice. Bluff's a great skill, and Sense Motive doesn't go above +10 on most druids.

** spoiler omitted **

That ninja owes me. And I don't mean diamond dust. The next time I see her we're going to have a long conversation about exactly what her soul is worth.

Grand Lodge

Hmm.... I wonder what happens if a druid earthglides through a stone wall, and there is an enemy on the other side with an adamantium Pick axe...

Dark Archive

Thanks for the input folks...

Shadow Lodge RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8

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Hey wellsmv,

Having played a druid that's capable of this and been with an elemental oread sorcerer that's done this, the people that have posted above have the right of it.

  • Without tremorsense, they'll be forced to pop out randomly to figure out where they are—they can't use the predrawn map as a clue of where to go. This actually makes it quite difficult for druids to navigate elaborate underground maps. I saw that elemental oread get randomly teleported 700-odd feet away from us while we were underground in a high level module. It took him almost an hour to find his way back—gliding randomly through the earth.
  • Require stealth checks as they move, of course remembering that they'll be moving half speed while doing so or incurring a penalty. Also note that while there may not be furniture on the ground, there's definitely a chance that PCs will pop their heads up under rugs or chairs, something that's sure to garner attention.
  • As far as bypassing traps and doors go, that's some GM discretion area. Personally, I allow elementals to disable traps in stonework or open locked stone doors—they just earth glide into the hinges or locks and break them out. But again, how that's exactly adjudicated at a table is entirely your call because no specific rules exist.
  • And finally, aswith any potentially scenario-breaking tactic, PCs should be reminded that PFS is a cooperative experience and their teammates should also be allowed to enjoy the game. Druids that glide off to the final boss fight and try to solo it aren't being the best Pathfinders they could be.


  • I've run into similar issues with the Gloves of Reconnaissance (or the various Oracle Revelations that achieve similar results). A GM once pulled me aside and asked me to not use them as they would spoil the rest of the encounters and I agreed with no further questions. Since then I usually run it by the GM to make sure they're comfortable with it.


    But... that's the entire POINT of gloves of reconnaissance. I honestly don't see a way in which using the gloves wouldn't give you one of two results: 1. The hallway curves or room appears empty, so you get nothing. 2. Here's what the next encounter is.


    It is. But if the GM feels it's going to ruin everyone's fun then I'm not going to belabor the point. And if we almost die because of a nasty ambush we could have anticipated then I'll consider whether I want to play with that GM again.


    To the OP,

    You should not penalize the player for using his/her powers wisely because Wisdom is the hallmark trait of a druid. Rather than viewing this as an exploit, I see this as a player succeeding to rise to the challenge in terms of roleplaying his character both in character and out of character, to overcome the obstacles that are set before the party for their mutual benefit.

    Let me break it to you this way - Smart players are going to do things that you don't expect. That's the great thing about playing a game with people who use their heads as opposed to those who don't. A good DM rolls with it. To deny your players access to their character's powers based on your personal frustration would be unfair on your part and could do more damage than good for your game (if not your friendship and good standing with your players as well).

    That being said, I have found that the answers to nearly every rule conflict that I've encountered are written clearly in the books. In this case, the answer is simple - earthglide does not let the user pass through WORKED stone (look it up if you don't believe me). Your interpretation may be a bit different than mine, but this means brick walls, tiled floors and other architecture in the game where my character has earthglide ability. This means that the player will retain the ability to glide in most natural places, but not in many man-made places. Apply common sense here.

    As for the alternate elemental stuff - if it isn't expressly written, then you don't have to allow it. Period.

    Silver Crusade

    The Mighty Grognard wrote:


    earthglide does not let the user pass through WORKED stone (look it up if you don't believe me).

    There is no such restriction as far as I can see. Certainly there is NOT that restriction in the prd nor in my bestiary in the universal monster rules. Where are you finding this restriction?

    Grand Lodge

    I have a vague recollection that there is a monster or spell that gives you earthglide, with the limitation not through worked stone. This has led some people to believe that all earthglide is prohibited through worked stone. (Which is not the case.)

    Lantern Lodge

    pauljathome wrote:
    The Mighty Grognard wrote:


    earthglide does not let the user pass through WORKED stone (look it up if you don't believe me).
    There is no such restriction as far as I can see. Certainly there is NOT that restriction in the prd nor in my bestiary in the universal monster rules. Where are you finding this restriction?

    According to the PRD, not all Earth Glides work the same.

    The Universal Monster Ability Earth Glide prohibits moving through "metal", but says nothing about worked stone. This would apply to elementals and creatures that have this UMA, and to Kobold Bloodline Sorcerors, Gray Disciples and others who are granted the UMA.

    The Earth Glide given to Oracles of Stone specifically states that it does not work with "worked stone and metal", and the Earth Glide given to Deep Earth Sorcerors specifically says it works with "natural earth or stone".


    1. a druid using earth glide is bat blind. he lack tremor sense unless he is a cave druid so ... he aint much of a scout seeing nothing.
    2. sound cant pass earth. so - he cant alret his friends even if they have messege.
    3. if he pop to see there is an auto spot check - and druids are not the best stealth characters.


    Druids cant see through solid material, so he has to pop out his head to see. That gives his opponents a free spot check.

    For being almost entirely concealed by the rock the druid gets a +4 bonus to his AC and Stealth checks. If the group uses called shots then this is just about a perfect opportunity to showcase them.

    Most traps are made of metal to a degree. A druid cannot move through that, he might even bonk his head on it and trigger it accidentally, but given a little space he might be able to disable it from inside the wall, food for thought.

    Sovereign Court

    There are boots that grant tremorsense, 5000gp. Since it's a constant effect, they continue functioning during wildshape.


    Ascalaphus wrote:
    There are boots that grant tremorsense, 5000gp. Since it's a constant effect, they continue functioning during wildshape.

    where from ?


    Ascalaphus wrote:
    There are boots that grant tremorsense, 5000gp. Since it's a constant effect, they continue functioning during wildshape.

    no they dont...... the wording says ON THE GROUND..... not UNDER...

    Tremor Boots

    Price 10,000 gp; Aura faint divination; CL 5th; Weight 1 lb.

    These brown leather boots have a reinforced toe of steel with grooves along the soles, crafted to help the wearer pick up vibrations from the surrounding environment. These boots grant the wearer tremorsense 20 feet as long as he is standing on solid ground.


    wellsmv wrote:

    any tips on how to deal with a player with a druid character

    that spams elemental and uses elemental shape to bypass traps and such
    via earth glide ability.

    i dont want to say he cheats... but good lord he abuses the rules.

    I dont allow it but another gm was allowing him to use para-elemental (mud,ect)

    this game he was wanting to scout ahead every room in elemental form(earth glide) in a dungeon. this theory is that he can peek out and no one can see/attack him b/c he is in the wall?

    getting frustrated...

    1. They are totally blind so unless they travel 1 cm a round they will be completely in rooms before they know it (no 'peeking in').

    2. Stealth = 1/2 move and stealth checks.

    3. Furnishings - wall hangings, carpets, furniture all block movement.

    4. No casting in walls (mouth blocked) - some generous DMs might allow concentration checks to cast like being underwater.

    5. Undead - 4 shadows/greater shadows/wraiths etc etc attack the LONE PC out scouting from inside a wall and unlike pcs incorporal undead have an instinctive sense of direction (they won't be out run).
    Assuming the PC survives they won't be doing it again in a hurry !

    -Note: casters in elemental form cannot cast unless they have eschew components at the very least.


    To add on to what people say about being blind/etc while Earthgliding,
    you also need to be holding your breath, as it doesn't grant any special ability re: breathing,
    and while effectively blind you are certainly subject to the rules for getting lost (in Environment chapter).
    Not many GMs seem to remember to enforce those, but they are actually pretty harsh.
    Once you get lost, you are effectively under a Confusion effect as far as travelling around goes,
    and you need to pass another check just in order to realize you are lost.


    On the breathing thing I am fairly sure that you get to breathe. Earth Elementals can presumably breathe underground. Are you making druids who wild shape into fish hold their breath?

    Even if you do apply it Air Bubble is level 1 and lasts 1 minute/level. Life Bubble is level 5 but lasts 2 hours/level, affects multiple targets and is a fairly standard mid level buff given it makes you immune to things like Stinking Cloud, various breath weapons and stench auras.

    Lantern Lodge

    insaneogeddon wrote:
    unlike pcs incorporal undead have an instinctive sense of direction

    This is a common misconception. There is a Universal Monster Ability called "Lifesense" which acts as Blind Sight with respect to life.

    It is NOT universally given to all incorporeal undead. Shadows, Ghosts and Spectres don't get it. Wraiths do.


    My mistake, although Earthglide itself doesn't grant the ability to breathe inside stone/etc,
    (Earth Elementals have the Elemental Type which means they don't need to breathe, and Elemental Body doesn't grant that)
    the Polymorph rules state: "If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing.",
    and despite that Earthglide isn't NECESSARILY burrowing per se,
    Earth Elementals ALSO have an actual burrow speed, which Elemental Body grants, which thus also grants the ability to breathe.
    Weirdly, creatures like Badgers may have a Burrow speed but don't actually gain any special ability re: breathing,
    yet using Beast Shape to emulate them means you DO gain the ability to freely breathe underground.


    Fair point, air bubble it is. It doesn't answer the fish issue though, I wonder if that is intended.

    Also incorporeal undead must maintain contact with surface of anything they are moving through, they cannot go swimming though the ground like an earth gliding druid. It is also arguable whether lifesense goes through solid matter given it works like blindsight.

    Lantern Lodge

    Quandary wrote:

    To add on to what people say about being blind/etc while Earthgliding,

    you also need to be holding your breath, as it doesn't grant any special ability re: breathing,
    and while effectively blind you are certainly subject to the rules for getting lost (in Environment chapter).
    Not many GMs seem to remember to enforce those, but they are actually pretty harsh.
    Once you get lost, you are effectively under a Confusion effect as far as travelling around goes,
    and you need to pass another check just in order to realize you are lost.

    Again, there are different Earth Glides.

    The Universal Monster Ability version (which is by far the most common) doesn't say one way or the other. So the ability does not itself let you breathe while gliding. Note that Elementals get away with this because the Elemental subtype says: "Elementals do not breathe, eat, or sleep."

    The Oracle of Stone: "While gliding, you breathe stone as if it were air (you do not need to hold your breath)." I don't know of any other versions of Earth Glide that grant the ability to breathe while using it, but I haven't done a lot of checking.

    Note that a wildshaping Druid, or someone casting the Elemental Body spell, can breathe while Earth Gliding. The spell (which also applies to wildshaping) is a Transmutation (Polymorph) spell, and Earth Glide is defined as a form of Burrowing, and Polymorph says: "If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing."

    Edit - Quandry posted while I was composing and researching! Also, he's right.


    666bender wrote:
    Ascalaphus wrote:
    There are boots that grant tremorsense, 5000gp. Since it's a constant effect, they continue functioning during wildshape.

    no they dont...... the wording says ON THE GROUND..... not UNDER...

    Tremor Boots

    Price 10,000 gp; Aura faint divination; CL 5th; Weight 1 lb.

    These brown leather boots have a reinforced toe of steel with grooves along the soles, crafted to help the wearer pick up vibrations from the surrounding environment. These boots grant the wearer tremorsense 20 feet as long as he is standing on solid ground.

    You can never not be on solid ground while not in the air. Even while underground, you are in fact on top of solid ground, you are still ontop of solid ground.

    Sczarni

    My GM when I did this last (I think everyone with a druid has tried) required frequent Survival checks to determine how well I moved, how far, and how well I did at popping just a little out of the walls. he considered the fact that I was navigating blind to be appropriate to that skill check. I didn't mind, but I don't often do the earth glide anymore. . .


    Captain Zoom wrote:
    insaneogeddon wrote:
    unlike pcs incorporal undead have an instinctive sense of direction

    This is a common misconception. There is a Universal Monster Ability called "Lifesense" which acts as Blind Sight with respect to life.

    It is NOT universally given to all incorporeal undead. Shadows, Ghosts and Spectres don't get it. Wraiths do.

    Wrong. They all have the right conception.

    "Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see."

    check the incorporeal universal monster rule bub.

    http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/universalMonsterRules.html

    Yes incorporeal need to stay adjacent to a surface but few walls are over 5ft thick. If they are instead of using undead use the getting lost rules and for a blind pc holding their breath who cannot cast that is pretty much game over.

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