Hey, all. After much time and energy, I'm finally getting my old gaming group to come to the realization of pathfinder's superiority over that other 4th edition game. For one of our games, we are converting our characters to pathfinder.
I'm a little hung up on our warden. I'm looking for a build that is nature themed (required), serves as a front line tank (required), and preferably wields a 2-handed reach weapon (optional, character has an intelligent bardiche he's quite fond of but can be converted to another type of weapon if needed).
I've thought about a polearm master fighter, a barbarian/druid wildshaper rager, and a straight ranger with heavy armor proficiency, sword and board with lunge (probably longsword and buckler for 2-handing power attacks).
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
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Welcome to Pathfinder! While I won't say one system is superior to another, there are styles of play that work better with certain gamers. Remember to disengage from the notion of "tanks" and "strikers." While Pathfinder has "grid combat," multiple classes can be adapted to fit a variety of roles. Even a bard can be molded to survive on the "front lines." For fun, pick a concept and go with it. Don't avoid an archetype or "build" simply because it has less numerical advantage than another.
For example, the Ranger is a great fit for nature themed and can specialize in two-handed weaponry. Just be aware some of their abilities don't function with heavy armor. Optimally, a fighter should be more "tanky" and a barbarian should deal more combat damage, but the beauty of Pathfinder is that the Ranger can fit the combat role of a "frontliner" just fine if you mold him so. In Pathfinder, you don't have to pick the "best" build to succeed given the versatility with each class through archetypes and feats.
My apologies. I didn't mean to come across as new to pathfinder. I myself have been playing pathfinder in various groups for years now and have about 15 years of pnp rpg experience starting with 3.0 DnD; DMing for equally as long.
However, I moved away for a while and have recently returned to my oldest gaming group. While I transitioned from 3.5 to Pathfinder and dabbled in 4.0 briefly, they transitioned from 3.5 into 4.0 and have only modest exposure to Pathfinder. I ran some modules and one-off's for them to tempt them (Now also running RotRL for them), and the DM's of one of the several games we run has decided to also convert to Pathfinder.
As the most experienced player and DM in the pathfinder system, I'm assisting in the conversion of the characters. Most are simple enough, but the warden did not have as direct of a comparison. I'm a bit of a number cruncher / optimizer myself, so I came up with a few builds I've seen here or created myself, but was seeking additional recommendations from the boards.
I recognize the versatility and diversity of pathfinder where terms such as "tank" are not quite as defined as "defender" is in 4.0. Indeed, that is one of the main reasons for me attempting to motivate my gaming group into transitioning out of 4th edition (personal preference I know). That said, "tank" is the most concise way I know of for explaining the aims of this particular character.
So any nature-themed tanky type builds out there?
Aasimar Wood Oracle.
Favored class benefit to increasing Wood Armor. Wood Armor revelation with Magical Vestment spell seems like it would be legit.
Wood Bond with a longspear, reach and fighter-like attack bonus.
Become a plant-monster at later levels if you want with Tree Form.
Thorn Burst for terrain control + damage as a swift action (caltrops stop charges).
Good suggestions. I'm digging the warpriest with plant blessing. Think a combat patrol/pin down build might be feasible on one? I don't have any experience with them in play.
For second blessing, I'm thinking healing might be good (pending DM approval). Load him up with cure spells prepared and laugh as he locks down the battlefield. Pair him with a blaster caster using selective spell and it could be devastating.
Just noticed the level 11 fighter requirement on pin down. Bummer.
Why do fighters get all the nicest toys!?
Just noticed the level 11 fighter requirement on pin down. Bummer.
Why do fighters get all the nicest toys!?
Yes, why do they:)
Design Manager
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Crusader Cleric with the Animal or Plant domains, possibly Gozreh as their deity (pretty sure his weapon is a trident)? That gives them 5 bonus feats so you can whip up a pretty decent cleric tank. What race is the player running? There's a lot of fun ways you can go with that. A human Crusader could pick up Channeled Smite and Guided Hand right from 1st level, allowing them to use WIS for their attack rolls, and still have a feat for heavy armor. They'd just need to put like a 13 in STR for Power Attack and carrying capacity and they're good to go.
An Oracle with the Wood Mystery could also potentially be a very effective nature-based tank.
Oh, and there is a Shapeshifter archetype for the Ranger that is extremely similar to 4E's Warden, so that might be something for your player to look at.
Race is Human at present, but some flexibility may be allowed (half-elf, half-Orc, another medium sized race that could pass for human). It's the Dragonlance campaign setting, so some flexibility on gods/domains/favored weapon may be assumed.
I forgot about guided hand. That could be good route to explore.
Comparing the warpriest to the crusader cleric, looks like the warpriest is a better fit. Swift action self heals and more tanky focused is hard to pass up.
Wood Oracle seems like a long way to go for what can be obtained by other classes. The wooden armor is an armor bonus; seems like full plate could accomplish similar without the expenditure of all of one's favored class bonuses. At 15th level the wooden armor would be +14, I believe? Compare that to +5 full plate at +13. Granted the wooden armor is also DR 5/slashing at that point. Also, the d8 HD's seem a tad low for a front-liner. Admittedly, it's not one of my most familiar classes, so I may be missing something.
Aasimar Wood Oracle.
Favored class benefit to increasing Wood Armor. Wood Armor revelation with Magical Vestment spell seems like it would be legit.
Wood Bond with a longspear, reach and fighter-like attack bonus.
Become a plant-monster at later levels if you want with Tree Form.
Thorn Burst for terrain control + damage as a swift action (caltrops stop charges).
Damn, I basically clicked to post this suggestion, so I'll just +1 it instead.
If you are open to the beta material, I would throw out both the blood rager and a nature based war priest
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Made the assumption incorrectly! I would second a druid shape-shifter. At lower levels, with high Strength and just enough Wisdom to cast spells (topping out at 19, summons and buffing rather than anything that gives your foes a save), the druid is a passable fighter. When they can shift shape you'll graduate to a damage dealer who can keep pace with most other fighter types. If you've worked on your Con and hit points, you'll find it durable and versatile, adapting to the environment. Certain shapes benefit heavily from Vital Strike making the druid frontliner a real bruiser, or you could end up being a caster's worst nightmare, either flying or pouncing at them.
Dragonlance by tradition never had dinosaurs, so check with your GM about the flavor of the campaign and if this is a part of it.
If the release version of Bloodrager comes with a Verdant bloodline, that may be as close as you can get thematically.
Oracle (Nature mystery) can make a very effective tank with the Nature's Whispers revelation (you no longer need to invest in Dex for AC, which lets you concentrate more on Str and Cha). Spirit of Nature can keep you from dying if reduced to negative hp. Life leech lets you drain hp from an opponent within 30 ft (save for half) and gain them as temporary hp. Bonded Mount basically gives you an Animal Companion (limited selection, though). Gain barkskin as a bonus spell known at 4th level.
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Hey, all. After much time and energy, I'm finally getting my old gaming group to come to the realization of pathfinder's superiority over that other 4th edition game. For one of our games, we are converting our characters to pathfinder.
I'm a little hung up on our warden. I'm looking for a build that is nature themed (required), serves as a front line tank (required), and preferably wields a 2-handed reach weapon (optional, character has an intelligent bardiche he's quite fond of but can be converted to another type of weapon if needed).
I've thought about a polearm master fighter, a barbarian/druid wildshaper rager, and a straight ranger with heavy armor proficiency, sword and board with lunge (probably longsword and buckler for 2-handing power attacks).
Thoughts?
Thanks in advance.
GOOD. I'm glad you converted them. 4th is quite friendly, but it just feels bland and eventually you're shuffling 30+ ability cards and everyone stops paying attention to what they have and haven't used. That's purely my opinion and does not account for anyone else's, of course.
Anyways, A really cool build would possibly be a Druid/Barbarian. The only issue is the Weapons... but in Earth Elemental(any elemental really) form or certain Animal forms with Hands, he could wield the weapon... however, the size of the weapon wouldn't increase with the size of the Barb/Druid. Though, you gain some hefty reach besides size when shifting, so that really kind of nulls the point of a weapon unless it's being used outside of your normal form. Perhaps just Natural weapons in the new form? Earth Elemental gets the best Str(goes great with barbarian rage!) and defenses. Water gets the best overall defenses with it's +8 con bonus, str, and natural armor(huge size). I'd think of him as an Earth Warden :)
With the addition of the feat Natural Spell, you could still buff the party too! One thing to really keep in mind, is that you cannot really be a "tank" in this game unless you are doing something to hold enemies in front or near you, or you are such a great threat to them that they have to target you first.
Ranger, for full BAB.
Add heavy armor feat.
Take two-handed style.
(Two-Handed Weapon: If the ranger selects two-handed weapon style, he can choose from the following list whenever he gains a combat style feat: Cleave, Power Attack, Pushing Assault, and Shield of Swings. At 6th level, he adds Furious Focus and Great Cleave to the list. At 10th level, he adds Dreadful Carnage and Improved Sunder to the list.)
shield of swings boost AC, pushing assualt gives some control, dreadful carnage gives morale attack.
I personally love a wild shape focused druid, but AC can be a problem.
A Warden seems more of a fighter-with-bennies to me, anyway, but I'm not that familiar with 4th ed.
It may take awhile to get it to what you want it to be, but you're welcome to use a build I posted on this forum quite a ways back.
I just want to say a Ranger with a Bardiche and Pushing Assault as his second level bonus feat is good times. Take Great Cleave without taking Cleave at 6 and Lunge at 7 and it becomes very hard to get within 5 feet of you.
Other suggestions would be Cleric, Druid, Warpriest, or Paladin
I haven't seen anyone suggest it yet but a Paladin of Erastil, Sarenrae or Shelyn with an intelligent bardiche would be a really good tank.
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Design Manager
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So, it's not really automatically nature-themed, but with the right selection of Rage Powers a Viking can have a lot of nature flavor and makes a spectacular tank. If you happen to have the "People of the North" splatbook, there's even a lot of animal-themed feats and traits to accentuate the idea.
A lot of great ideas. Thanks guys.
Looks like the conversion will be to a character of approximately level 7. So any builds that are slow to get started won't be as bad of an issue.
I have some concerns about starting characters at more of a midrange level with newer people to pathfinder, but as I said I've been running some module and started RotRL with the guys so they should at least be good on the basics.
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Ranger makes an AWESOME tanky character. If you take the sword/shield fighting style, you even get early access to bashing finish, which gives you free shield bashes on crits for nice bonus damage. The spells are what give it that nature-esque feel, and if you take the Woodland Skirmisher archetype you can even get some druidic spells added to your list without needing to worry about an animal companion (though you're stuck with crap favored enemies, but that's nothing Instant Enemy can't fix).
I'm digging the ranger w/ full plate and THF combat style. Mithril armor gets him out of the loss of combat style feats for wearing heavy armor. Good AC and control options. Clever getting Great Cleave without getting Cleave first. Clearly it's permitted as the ranger explicitly states he need not meet the prerequisites, but I just never thought of it.
Right now I'm planning on presenting him with Warpriest of nature, Ranger in heavy armor w/ THF style, and Wood Mystery Oracle.
The Druid builds look good, but they feel like too much of a departure from his THF style. If it was necessary, I'd push him that way, but it seems there are at least three builds that should suit him without the loss of his preferred weapon style.