My Vanilla Monk Out-Damaged the Ranger / Barbarian Archer


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Good news everyone!

I am fresh from a PF game this night (party is level 8) and I have a story to tell.

For the past two sessions my vanilla monk has out-damaged the party ranger. This occurred when he was enlarged (via potion) and when he was not enlarged.

Good times I tell you. The ranger player is getting a little jealous, and I've got to be careful that doesn't get out of hand. We have been fighting a lot of flying foes of late, and while the ranger has the bow, their rolling has been not the best. When the foes land or maul someone, it is flurry of fun times but the ranger's adamantium greataxe also has not been up to form, rage has led to a lot of misses.

Info
Both the ranger and monk are level 8, made with 20 point buy.

Monk is vanilla, is into boar style:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/boar-style-combat-style

Ranger is a switch hitter, loves his arrow spam and raging, has 1 level of barb.

The ACs of our opponents have been average to high, and a lot of flying (which should help the archer to really shine).

My monk also tanked against an adult black dragon. Giving the party the opportunity to wreak havoc. Good times.


Pics or it didnt happen.

Really I am not sure what this is intended to prove. What might happen in any one particular game with the peculiarities of individual players or GM's isn't the point.

If you are interested in class balance then the idea is to try and look objectively at what each class is capabable of bringing to the table.

If you want to hold this up as an example then post his stats and lets see how he actually compares to a competently created archer ranger or an adult black dragon.


DM Under The Bridge wrote:

Good news everyone!

I am fresh from a PF game this night (party is level 8) and I have a story to tell.

For the past two sessions my vanilla monk has out-damaged the party ranger. This occurred when he was enlarged (via potion) and when he was not enlarged.

Good times I tell you. The ranger player is getting a little jealous, and I've got to be careful that doesn't get out of hand. We have been fighting a lot of flying foes of late, and while the ranger has the bow, their rolling has been not the best. When the foes land or maul someone, it is flurry of fun times but the ranger's adamantium greataxe also has not been up to form, rage has led to a lot of misses.

Info
Both the ranger and monk are level 8, made with 20 point buy.

Monk is vanilla, is into boar style:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/boar-style-combat-style

Ranger is a switch hitter, loves his arrow spam and raging, has 1 level of barb.

The ACs of our opponents have been average to high, and a lot of flying (which should help the archer to really shine).

My monk also tanked against an adult black dragon. Giving the party the opportunity to wreak havoc. Good times.

Good for you m8.

But why have rage led to misses? You sure you guys are doing it rigth?


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I stopped reading after "ranger's adamantium greataxe".

Because it's clear that your comparing system mastery disparity at that point and not the classes.


I am confused about how raging leads to a higher miss rate. What am I missing here?


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andreww wrote:
I am confused about how raging leads to a higher miss rate. What am I missing here?

AC stands for "Attack in Combat" and you use it to determine your hit against BAB (Battle Armor Bonus, obviously) didn't you know?


@OP

And I had fun playing a rogue. Currently I am collecting more data to determine how. In a month or two, I'll post a build (we are 10+) and try to determine where our rule rulings might differ from other tables (no intentional house-ruling, but some of the rules are vague and some rules people get confused about: like some people think skill mastery doesn't let you take 10 on skill checks)

It's not uncommon for the forums to be wrong. Everyone's table is different. The forums more or less assume a GM-less environment. It makes the discussion less table-dependent, but also relatively worthless.


Everyone's table *is* different. That doesn't change the fact that looking purely at the rules and mechanics, the Rogue is a weak class whose role has been steadily eroded even further in Pathfinder. That doesn't mean you can't have fun with a class, just that there classes that are mechanically superior to it.

Grand Lodge

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DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Good news everyone!

Good morning professor Farnsworth! :P

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

For the past two sessions my vanilla monk has out-damaged the party ranger. This occurred when he was enlarged (via potion) and when he was not enlarged.

Info
Both the ranger and monk are level 8, made with 20 point buy.

Monk is vanilla, is into boar style:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/boar-style-combat-style

Are you applying the bleed damage properly? As in they aren't stacking up to be 6d6 bleed per round?


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Anzyr wrote:
Everyone's table *is* different. That doesn't change the fact that looking purely at the rules and mechanics, the Rogue is a weak class whose role has been steadily eroded even further in Pathfinder. That doesn't mean you can't have fun with a class, just that there classes that are mechanically superior to it.

True. But the entire point of the game is to have fun.

For many of us that means keeping up mechanically. I plan to do a long discussion about some overlooked points when discussing the rogue and what rules interpretations work best for it. That will be later though after gathering more experimental data (play time).

Sczarni

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I'm happy for your Vanilla Monk. I hope the streak of damage dealing continues. Kudos for tanking! It's fun to do it as a Monk, especially with how so many spells and abilities stack on our AC so well.

I'm curious how Raging would make the Ranger miss more often though.


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Anzyr wrote:

I stopped reading after "ranger's adamantium greataxe".

Because it's clear that your comparing system mastery disparity at that point and not the classes.

Big two-handed weapons like that are good for switch hitters as far as I've seen, and adamantine is a good material to pick.


Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:
I'm curious how Raging would make the Ranger miss more often though.

The only thing I can think of is that with only 1 level of barb the rounds of rage are going to be pretty limited, so if the fights are fluid and long lasting the ranger might be fatigued a lot. But if the fights are fluid and long lasting then the monk shouldn't be able to flurry so the monk's DPR should be well below the ranger's.

Also, no worries about stacking the bleed damage since a vanilla monk cannot get boar shred before level 9 - only the 2d6 once per round for boar style and that only if two attacks hit.


Could the op have meant power attack? That would explain the ranger missing a bit.


OP, I'd like to see some analysis. Unlike some posters here, I do value anecdote, but examined anecdote is much better than unexamined anecdote. At the moment the only attempt at explaining the results is when you say that a) their rolling has been subpar and b) rage is causing the ranger to miss more often with his axe. (?)

There would be a lot more to discuss if you would make an effort to explain the situation and the factors you believe to have caused the results you've been getting.


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I don't think OP's intent was to spark a detailed analysis of every game reason that his monk might out-damage a ranger with a level of barbarian. I believe he was just bragging a bit and saying it can happen. Not every thread has to be a place where you tell people exactly how they're playing the game wrong.

However, if rage was making the character miss more often, with a very strange archetype, there IS a problem :P I'm 95% sure that the OP meant Power Attack, and/or there's a houserule in play (or maybe just the ranger doing it for flavor) where raging characters MUST use Power Attack if they have it.


Anzyr wrote:

I stopped reading after "ranger's adamantium greataxe".

Because it's clear that your comparing system mastery disparity at that point and not the classes.

Well he chose the axe for a reason, he is mainly an archer and has mainly been shooting, and he is far more well versed in pathfinder (played it and ran it twice as long as I have).


gatherer818 wrote:

I don't think OP's intent was to spark a detailed analysis of every game reason that his monk might out-damage a ranger with a level of barbarian. I believe he was just bragging a bit and saying it can happen. Not every thread has to be a place where you tell people exactly how they're playing the game wrong.

However, if rage was making the character miss more often, with a very strange archetype, there IS a problem :P I'm 95% sure that the OP meant Power Attack, and/or there's a houserule in play (or maybe just the ranger doing it for flavor) where raging characters MUST use Power Attack if they have it.

Hi, you get it.

Rage wasn't making the character miss though, he was raging AND missing. Some bad rolls for sure. When hitting, not rolling great damage.

My monk was instead flurrying and using ki to flurry harder "the boar style will triump!" and was not losing the damage race (not that it is a real race, it is all a teamwork game of cooperation after all).


Marthkus wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Everyone's table *is* different. That doesn't change the fact that looking purely at the rules and mechanics, the Rogue is a weak class whose role has been steadily eroded even further in Pathfinder. That doesn't mean you can't have fun with a class, just that there classes that are mechanically superior to it.

True. But the entire point of the game is to have fun.

For many of us that means keeping up mechanically. I plan to do a long discussion about some overlooked points when discussing the rogue and what rules interpretations work best for it. That will be later though after gathering more experimental data (play time).

I look forward to reading your discussion, good luck composing it.


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Oncoming_Storm wrote:
DM Under The Bridge wrote:
Good news everyone!

Good morning professor Farnsworth! :P

DM Under The Bridge wrote:

For the past two sessions my vanilla monk has out-damaged the party ranger. This occurred when he was enlarged (via potion) and when he was not enlarged.

Info
Both the ranger and monk are level 8, made with 20 point buy.

Monk is vanilla, is into boar style:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/boar-style-combat-style

Are you applying the bleed damage properly? As in they aren't stacking up to be 6d6 bleed per round?

Nope, not stacking bleed. I'm on 1d4 (bleeding attack) or it goes to 2d6 if I get two attacks to hit (boar style). No stacking. That would be wrong.


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Breaking News: If someone else in the party has shitty luck, a Monk can out perform them.

Next Up: Wizards useless! Anti-magic Fields cover the entire world of my homebrew campaign!


Rynjin wrote:

Breaking News: If someone else in the party has s&$*ty luck, a Monk can out perform them.

Next Up: Wizards useless! Anti-magic Fields cover the entire world of my homebrew campaign!

One of these things is not like the other...


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They're exactly like the other. Corner case points that only apply in a specific circumstance and have nothing to do with the class match ups at all.

A Commoner who rolls all 20's is going to be better than a Fighter who can't roll above a two. Doesn't mean the Commoner has super powers.

Maybe his player has loaded dice, but not super powers.


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Builds or it did not happens. But with all the spaltbook material and good sytem mastery I am pretty confident that monks can be good damage dealers.


Rynjin wrote:

Breaking News: If someone else in the party has s!&~ty luck, a Monk can out perform them.

Next Up: Wizards useless! Anti-magic Fields cover the entire world of my homebrew campaign!

A pattern is forming. You can blame it on luck if you want, but my char is not on any penalties to attack. The ranger is missing a lot I suspect from being on -2 due to rapid shot. He is missing his manyshot a fair bit too.

In other news. We had fought a dragon and then a great deal of modified chimeras (modified chimeras, it's what's for dinner). The ranger went up to some alcoves and navigated some traps, ran into a reverse gravity and stole the loot. As he was coming down, he slipped, and faced a large amount of damage as he plummeted to the hard ground.

My monk was there, he used his last ki point for high jump and intercepted him mid-air, taking him gracefully to the ground (no damage for him) and taking the damage in his stead (no slow fall, not near a wall). Saved him from a lot of pain. The party was thrilled, dm impressed, and that ranger is so in my debt, lol. I'm hoping we work together well (as he is far superior at ranged than my char) and the competition doesn't get too heavy.

I like to try and use the ki abilities to the fullest as well, it isn't just all about damage when the monk is contributing to a party.


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Rynjin wrote:
A Commoner who rolls all 20's is going to be better than a Fighter who can't roll above a two. Doesn't mean the Commoner has super powers

Not true.

It depends on the enemy.


Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Builds or it did not happens. But with all the spaltbook material and good sytem mastery I am pretty confident that monks can be good damage dealers.

Well I can't give you the ranger/barb, as he is not my character.

As for the feats for my vanilla monk:

Got the Bleeding attack from the Cheliax book, but its near redundant (but reliable) with my boar style from ultimate combat.
Got toughness
Extra ki
Weapon focus: unarmed (I would sell my grandmother for more to hit).

Bonus
Improved trip, deflect arrows (must remember to use it, I'm new to monks so I forget), dodge.

Traits
Bloodthirsty and Axe to Grind. Been forgetting to apply them, doh!

Oh and another funny thing. The hp of the ranger/barb and the hp of the monk are exactly the same at 88 (I took toughness and it evened us up). He has more of course when he rages. First time I've seen two melees at mid level with the same hp.

Str 18
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 9
Wis 16 (20) with periapt of wisdom

Saves
Fort+8
Ref +8
Will +11

Stuff
Robe of the monk
Periapt of wisdom +4
Some potions including enlarge person
Collecting mementos.
Just got ring of str sapping as treasure, will see how it goes.

One very fun young bald monk from Isger. LG and not a fan of hellknights.

Got to work now, will check back in after many hours. Bye!


Theory: Under geared party is facing under geared NPC with lower AC. This favors the monk.


Naa, our kit is from the standard rules, wealth by level and all that. We haven't been fighting ooze ACs, mainly flying creatures. Not everything has a high AC, but the modified chimeras were on about 22.

If the ACs were truly terrible, the ranger would be hitting on the low rolls as well.


DM Under The Bridge wrote:

Naa, our kit is from the standard rules, wealth by level and all that. We haven't been fighting ooze ACs, mainly flying creatures. Not everything has a high AC, but the modified chimeras were on about 22.

If the ACs were truly terrible, the ranger would be hitting on the low rolls as well.

You don't have a strength increasing item.


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Why does he need to show what the build or "pics or it didn't happen" or why does this need to mean anything or be discussed in length?

People do realize that DPR, %s etc are theoretical and you don't literally do 40 damage a round right? It's theoretical that over a very long period of rolls it will get closer and closer to that average. Its very easy for the 5-6 turns of combat to not follow the norms and for someone to win from better rolls, especially in a flat (non curve) system.


I do not like to analize half builds, I would like all the numbers.


MattR1986 wrote:

Why does he need to show what the build or "pics or it didn't happen" or why does this need to mean anything or be discussed in length?

People do realize that DPR, %s etc are theoretical and you don't literally do 40 damage a round right? It's theoretical that over a very long period of rolls it will get closer and closer to that average. Its very easy for the 5-6 turns of combat to not follow the norms and for someone to win from better rolls, especially in a flat (non curve) system.

You are asnwering your own question.

Shadow Lodge

So, you have an optimized Monk at one of the best possible levels for you to play the class [around 7-13, but YMMV], and managed to out-damage a Ranger who was mutliclassed, and switch-hitting, and while you were using multiple variable effects [Boar Style]. Congratulations?


EvilPaladin wrote:
So, you have an optimized Monk at one of the best possible levels for you to play the class [around 7-13, but YMMV], and managed to out-damage a Ranger who was mutliclassed, and switch-hitting, and while you were using multiple variable effects [Boar Style]. Congratulations?

Don't forget that the Ranger was also rolling poorly.


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It's April 1st guys...


HarbinNick wrote:
It's April 1st guys...

Not in this time zone.

Anyway, still interested if there is a useful discussion to be had, but otherwise, checking out.


HarbinNick wrote:
It's April 1st guys...

!!!


EvilPaladin wrote:
So, you have an optimized Monk at one of the best possible levels for you to play the class [around 7-13, but YMMV], and managed to out-damage a Ranger who was mutliclassed, and switch-hitting, and while you were using multiple variable effects [Boar Style]. Congratulations?

How is my monk optimized?

He doesn't have an amulet of mighty fists?

He isn't high on str potions all the time (doesn't have them either).

He has an item to improve his wisdom, but he isn't buffing his str, dex or con. His str is good, it is an 18, but his dex and con are not great.

Does taking toughness and weapon focus make him a dirty optimizer? Are those feats bad?

Boar style is just a unarmed strike feat, the way he attacks all the time (he has no real ranged options). It requires a monk to hit to really set it off. Bleed is not a huge amount of the damage that he does (so far), as combats aren't very long. We all work together, we kill the foes.

The ranger was multiclassed, into another pure bab high damage class. Lol. My monk is just vanilla.

Are you angry for some reason? Your post comes off as really agitated, as if you are annoyed to even be here posting.

Do effective monks agitate you?

Thank you for posting.


Doug OBrien wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:
It's April 1st guys...
!!!

Game was yesterday. I am in no way making any of this up.


Chengar Qordath wrote:
EvilPaladin wrote:
So, you have an optimized Monk at one of the best possible levels for you to play the class [around 7-13, but YMMV], and managed to out-damage a Ranger who was mutliclassed, and switch-hitting, and while you were using multiple variable effects [Boar Style]. Congratulations?
Don't forget that the Ranger was also rolling poorly.

He wasn't rolling poorly all the time, but just hitting with one axe chop or one arrow each round doesn't compete with what the monk can do. Mmmm ki flurry.

It is also a bit amusing that my monk is a bit of a counter to the ranger with deflect arrows, high speed and bleed, but pvp is unlikely to be on the table.


HarbinNick wrote:
It's April 1st guys...

It's March 31st, actually, and this thread was made almost 12 hours ago so not even timezones really fix that...


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I live in CHINA!


HarbinNick wrote:
I live in CHINA!

你为什么住在中国?


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Marthkus wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:
I live in CHINA!
你为什么住在中国?

Working...Changchun. English-ee Teacher


HarbinNick wrote:
Marthkus wrote:
HarbinNick wrote:
I live in CHINA!
你为什么住在中国?
Working...Changchun. English-ee Teacher

教学是否支付呢?

你有一组有或者你通过互联网玩吗?


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Marthkus wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
A Commoner who rolls all 20's is going to be better than a Fighter who can't roll above a two. Doesn't mean the Commoner has super powers

Not true.

It depends on the enemy.

Bats was a commoner...

Okay...maybe Batman wasn't...he was probably a monk...

But Sam was a commoner (he was a gardner!!!)...well...maybe...then again...he always had some dang good rolls. I've never seen someone get so many 20s. Perhaps he was using a loaded die...


gatherer818 wrote:

I don't think OP's intent was to spark a detailed analysis of every game reason that his monk might out-damage a ranger with a level of barbarian. I believe he was just bragging a bit and saying it can happen. Not every thread has to be a place where you tell people exactly how they're playing the game wrong.

However, if rage was making the character miss more often, with a very strange archetype, there IS a problem :P I'm 95% sure that the OP meant Power Attack, and/or there's a houserule in play (or maybe just the ranger doing it for flavor) where raging characters MUST use Power Attack if they have it.

Well then the post was pointless. Good rolls can make that(one characteer out damage another) happen. He is not exactly bringing new information to us.


Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Builds or it did not happens. But with all the spaltbook material and good sytem mastery I am pretty confident that monks can be good damage dealers.

This is true, but most people can't pull it off. They can actually be decent damage dealers in core along, but then their defense suffers. The splat books allow you to have both.


Wait.. level 8 ranger having trouble hitting AC 22?

Archer switch hitter so let's assume 14 dex 18 str and no dex belt.

BAB: 8
Dex bonus: 2
+2 weapon: 2
Rapid shot: -2
reckless aim: -3

Total attack bonus on Manyshot: 7 (11 against primary favored enemy 9 against secondary)

Damage
D8+12 (16 favored 14 secondary favored) Double on manyshot

Assuming AC 22 average the ranger would have a hard time hitting while this monk is running around with what's likely a much higher to hit bonus (no power attack and high str). Note on his 2 best attacks the archer hits on a 15+ without favored enemy.

Until that Ranger gets instant enemy he's gonna have a bad time. Maybe he picked the wrong favored enemies.

TO OP
Suggest the Ranger get weapon focus longbow and a dex belt. Also Bracers of falcons aim http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/brace rs-of-falcon-s-aim

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