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"Oh great adventurers, my name is Sorcerer Steve, and I wish to hire you to guard this treasure on its way to a far off land by boat!"
"Why don't you just teleport it there yourself?"
"Because it's 100 tons of antimagiconium."
"Because it's an artifact, notoriously unreliable to teleport."
"Because it's a zoo, with over thirty species of exotic animals."
"Because I will be tending to over twenty other plots of mine while you minions get minioning."
"Because this is a decoy, you stupid patsies."
"Because I don't know teleport."
"Because I've never been there."
"Because I pay little peons like you to do these things, so that I am not assassinated by my enemies who are moving to counter my actions in the world."
"Because the land you are taking it to is hostile towards those of magic, and I am building up their trust in me. Be careful in displaying your power openly, Wizard Willy.""Oh great adventurers, my name is Pirate Pete, and I wish you to join me in my mission to waylay a boat filled with fabulous riches on the way to Sorcerer Steve!"
"Why doesn't he just teleport his stuff around by himself?"
"Because the rich and powerful do not deign to dirty their hands with manual labor like you and I. Viva la rivoluzione!"
"Because the treasure is the princess, Steve's spoiled niece, and she is decidedly unwilling to travel. We will kidnap her and force the king to abdicate and hold elections. Viva la rivoluzione!"
"Because this treasure is a golden statue 169 feet tall, in obvious contempt of the proletariat's fear of the number 13. It's capture shall allow us to fund the people's struggle against the bourgeoisie, as well as destroying the symbols of their oppression. Viva la rivoluzione!"..."Oh great adventurers, we are Pete and Steve! We wish you to join us in stealing a great artifact from Evil Eggbert!"
"Why don't you two just scry on his location, teleport to him
So you think teleportation for cargo transport is viable and makes economic sense. Because it does if I ever start running a campaign I'll limit the magic unless I want magically transported cargo. In which case I'll simply embrace it and make it part of the lore of my campaign.
Dropping the dinosaur use, I keep hearing about how there are so much better and easier ways to make money by a 13th level caster. My question is what are they and how much better are they than gouging the price of your daily Greater/normal Teleport spells? It's not like it would be time consuming at all for the caster.The Blood Money + Fabricate thing mentioned is solid, though Blood Money is pretty rare in-world so it's not gonna be common.
Aside from that, Efreeti Summoning is risky, but highly profitable, since you can net 50-65k per casting and still be offering a bargain to people who want Three Wishes. With good Bluff and acting obsequious you can likely pass the blame and anger of the Efreeti onto your client.
He can also raise the dead via Limited Wish, which is a service that you really should be able to charge more for than transportation. With Blood Money you can even do away with the normal 5k in Diamond Dust, making you able to significantly undercut any local Clerics and still make a hell of a profit if you like.
Even in the transportation field, there's Plane Shift, which seems like a spell that a lot of folks would want if they're interested in really long distance trade.
Control Weather is also something of a showstopper, with the ability to actively decide what your city and surrounding area's weather is being invaluable to food producers and the military among others. It's only a two mile radius...but that's per casting.
And then there's Simulacrum. If you can't make more money off Simulacrum than off Greater Teleport...you're doing something wrong.
I actually have some posts here, here,and here about simulacrum and how it's not the end-all be-all for making money. Though it'd certainly make an interesting campaign setting to be sure.
I always forget Blood Money is a thing. Good idea you have there.
I can't take credit for Blood Money, that's been bantered about the forum for a good while. It's very much a hypothetical combo though, any sane GM will ban it outright as soon as he realizes what kind of trouble his wizard player is brewing up.
@Kain Darkwind
That is a very interesting list, but near as I can tell each example is an exception justifying a particular party having to move stuff the oldfashioned way - it doesn't change the fact that if played straight, the default option for long-distance bulk shipping would be teleportation magic.
As for people hiring assassins to kill the teleportation wizard etc, teleportation magic is the equivalent of what the steam engine was to the industrial age.
It's really, really, really hard to stop progress when people realize what opportunities that progress represents.
So you think teleportation for cargo transport is viable and makes economic sense. Because it does if I ever start running a campaign I'll limit the magic unless I want magically transported cargo. In which case I'll simply embrace it and make it part of the lore of my campaign.
I think we have multiple forms of moving cargo in today's world, and yet ships still sail the seas. Teleport does somethings better than a ship, but not everything. Thus, it won't obsolete shipping like the automobile did to a horse and cart. Instead, it will complement it, to the degree that the DM deems necessary.
Simply put, a ship captain is a 3rd level anybody, and a teleporting sorcerer/wizard is a 10th level somebody. The rules leave open the possibility for a world where all cargo is teleported, and also that of a less magically reliant transportation system. I know that if I had the super power of teleportation, I wouldn't use it to try and outdo UPS.
@Kain Darkwind
That is a very interesting list, but near as I can tell each example is an exception justifying a particular party having to move stuff the oldfashioned way - it doesn't change the fact that if played straight, the default option for long-distance bulk shipping would be teleportation magic.As for people hiring assassins to kill the teleportation wizard etc, teleportation magic is the equivalent of what the steam engine was to the industrial age.
It's really, really, really hard to stop progress when people realize what opportunities that progress represents.
So I hear you saying that mundane shipping will still be the go-to method for somethings, and for others, that teleportation will be more practical. Sort of like how you don't use an airplane or hang glider to get everywhere, even though the technology to do so exists?
The thing that differentiates technology from magic is that much of magic is personal, while technology puts the power into the hands of the masses. Direct spellcasting is more analogous to science than technology. Command word magic items maps better to technology. And the rules do not suggest they are automatically mass produced.
Our own world has better access to technology that duplicates or surpasses the power of many Pathfinder magic spells, and yet all of its problems have not been eradicated, and many of our oldest technologies are still in use, largely unchanged from their pre-historical discovered status. The idea that having the potential to change the world means that the world will be changed does not have any support in real life.
I always forget Blood Money is a thing. Good idea you have there.I can't take credit for Blood Money, that's been bantered about the forum for a good while. It's very much a hypothetical combo though, any sane GM will ban it outright as soon as he realizes what kind of trouble his wizard player is brewing up.
@Kain Darkwind
That is a very interesting list, but near as I can tell each example is an exception justifying a particular party having to move stuff the oldfashioned way - it doesn't change the fact that if played straight, the default option for long-distance bulk shipping would be teleportation magic.As for people hiring assassins to kill the teleportation wizard etc, teleportation magic is the equivalent of what the steam engine was to the industrial age.
It's really, really, really hard to stop progress when people realize what opportunities that progress represents.
Honestly, it's why I prefer the spellcasting level limitations on pg 163 of the core rulebook, rather than what is presented in the Gamemasterey Guide. Large Cities and up get 5 level spells and up, rather than large towns.
In my home game, my capital cities are limited to large cities and small cities, with metropolises very rare. Like, Rome rare.
Sailing ship
Ship cost: 10k
Carrying capacity: 150 tons
crew 20
Speed 50 miles/day
Cost/ton 15ton/k
Cost/day 40 GP
trip time 40 days
trip cost 1600 GPBrachiosaurus: 9k GP
Heavy lift belt (saddle): 2k GP x2
Mule back chords: 1k
clear spindle: 4k
total: 16k
carrying capacity: 240 tons
crew 1 + spell casting
speed 2000/day
cost/ton 15ton/k
cost/day 10th level teleportation x2= 1000 GP + 10 GP animal handlerThe setup for teleprotation carries freight just as well as ship (better as zombie) and costs less to cover the same distance. On top of that it is 40 times faster and much safer.
Before you say that 10th level casters are hard to come by, boots of teleportation would pay for themselves in less then two months. I know the higher caster level would cost more but reducing the uses per day would drop in more then the increase.
One pair can replace 40 ships and 1 mage could make 7 pairs in a year.
So why would merchants risk ships when magic would be available and it is 40 times better and almost risk free.
Since there would be a 3 percent chance of not landing on target you could just leave the 3rd charge on the boots.
Because it would fundamentally change the world in a way that many find jarring.
This is a perfect example of how "simulationist" RPGs...aren't.
So I hear you saying that mundane shipping will still be the go-to method for somethings, and for others, that teleportation will be more practical. Sort of like how you don't use an airplane or hang glider to get everywhere, even though the technology to do so exists?
The thing that differentiates technology from magic is that much of magic is personal, while technology puts the power into the hands of the masses. Direct spellcasting is more analogous to science than technology. Command word magic items maps better to technology. And the rules do not suggest they are automatically mass produced.
Our own world has better access to technology that duplicates or surpasses the power of many Pathfinder magic spells, and yet all of its problems have not been eradicated, and many of our oldest technologies are still in use, largely unchanged from their pre-historical discovered status. The idea that having the potential to change the world means that the world will be changed does not have any support in real life.
Not exactly - I'm saying that there are niches where mundane transportation will be superior to teleportation, but in general teleportation is superior to mundane transportation. A bit like how planes, ships, trucks and trains are generally the superior mode of transportation in our world, but there are niches where you'll rely on other vehicles - such as snowcats, submarines and space shuttles.
I think that if you truly consider how magic of the form and scale Pathfinder has would logically interact with the fantasy kingdoms the campaign setting presents, it would most likely look rather different.
As a modern-day example, think of the amount of money a typical modern nation invests in railway systems - then offer them the alternate solution of creating a putting a permanent teleportation circle in each minor city, with a central teleportation circle hub. Each hub costs Literally any city in the nation would be a five minute walk away.
The teleportation circle has an upfront cost which is negligible compared to the cost of railways, stations, and trains, and it has next to no maintenance cost since unlike trains, the circle never needs maintenance, never breaks down, and the capacity is essentially infinite.
The downside here is, of course, you'll need access to a spellcaster with 9th level spells. The Magic of Golarion book names quite a few of those, and frequently they're also rulers. Alicavniss, Arazni, Baba Yaga, Elvanna, Geb, Razmir, and Socorro are some of the options.
You've already pointed out why teleportation circles don't exist everywhere. High level characters have their own agendas, and transforming the world into an interconnected teleportation ring is rarely one of them.
Also, knock off the 'if you consider the game...' bit. It's insulting. I've considered it, you've considered it, if someone hasn't considered it, they aren't likely to post on this thread either.
I agree with you that what you describe can happen. Where I disagree with you is where you take 'can' and turn it into 'will'.
Also, if passenger rails and hubs were so obviously a good idea, how come Detroit lacks them? (Spoiler: GM bought the lines decades ago and tore them out. Didn't like the idea of something competing with the then emerging automobile business.) Just because something makes sense and helps doesn't mean it will happen.
There are a great deal of examples of larger companies having a monopoly over a certain trade and doing anything they can to squash new advances in that. Preston Tucker is a good example of this.
Of course, if Preston Tucker was a 17th level wizard, I'm sure the car companies would be hard-pressed to take him on ;)
You've already pointed out why teleportation circles don't exist everywhere. High level characters have their own agendas, and transforming the world into an interconnected teleportation ring is rarely one of them.
Actually I specifically used "nation", not world. Both Geb and Nex strike me as places where a teleportation circle infrastructure could very well have happened. Part of the problem is that unlike steam engines prior to and in the early industrial age, teleportation magic is not an "emerging" concept - it's been around for thousands of years. I struggle to comprehend how, during the entirety of that time, not a single creature, including beings with an intelligence orders of a magnitude higher than anything we've ever had on Earth, has ever sat down and thought "maybe... Just maybe there might be a better way to do this than ships".
Also, knock off the 'if you consider the game...' bit. It's insulting. I've considered it, you've considered it, if someone hasn't considered it, they aren't likely to post on this thread either.
I agree with you that what you describe can happen. Where I disagree with you is where you take 'can' and turn it into 'will'.
I certainly don't mean to be insulting. However, I think a lot of these concepts are intentionally not taken to the max in the rule books because they clash with the world the designer wants to present. Players frequently lack these inhibitions, which is why a lot of campaigns can go pretty haywire unless the GM starts putting in house-rule restrictions. Wish loops, teleportation shenanigans, Blood Money Fabrication are all examples which ultimately ends up in something akin to Tippyville if left unchecked.
Also, if passenger rails and hubs were so obviously a good idea, how come Detroit lacks them? (Spoiler: GM bought the lines decades ago and tore them out. Didn't like the idea of something competing with the then emerging automobile business.) Just because something makes sense and helps doesn't mean it will happen.
I'm trying really hard not to make an Detroit economy joke here. I think the fact that the vast majority of major western cities do have and rely on rail based passenger systems makes Detroit an anomaly, not the rule. A bit like how the majority of western people rely on cars or public transportation to do their every-day commute, while the Amish use horse-drawn buggies.
I'd also like to note that teleportation circles would be an order of a magnitude more effective than any passenger transportation system currently existing on Earth.
Look at who wizards with 9th level spells are in the world of Golarion, and you can see why they aren't setting up teleport circles. They are busy running countries, masquerading as gods, creating their own worlds, etc. Permanent teleport circles are 23,500 gp, and one successful dispel magic away from being wasted money.
Which means several things. It means if you want to have a world where they are the norm, you can. If you want to have a world where they are a possibility not yet realized, you can. And if you want to have a world where they will never be realized, you have easy ways to stop it.
None of what I'm suggesting applies to PCs. If the PCs want to do these sort of things, they absolutely can, assuming the campaign doesn't provide motivation to do something besides ship cargo back and forth via the Astral. I'm simply pointing out that it can absolutely make sense for a world to not have teleport dominated trade, even if they have teleport spells.
Look at who wizards with 9th level spells are in the world of Golarion, and you can see why they aren't setting up teleport circles. They are busy running countries, masquerading as gods, creating their own worlds, etc. Permanent teleport circles are 23,500 gp, and one successful dispel magic away from being wasted money.
I'd say establishing a convenient, cheap, and effective form of instantaneous transportation between major settlements seems like a worthy goal for someone running a country or masquerading as a God - either to make your country function better, or simply as a pretty darn awesome Miracle.
Which means several things. It means if you want to have a world where they are the norm, you can. If you want to have a world where they are a possibility not yet realized, you can. And if you want to have a world where they will never be realized, you have easy ways to stop it.
None of what I'm suggesting applies to PCs. If the PCs want to do these sort of things, they absolutely can, assuming the campaign doesn't provide motivation to do something besides ship cargo back and forth via the Astral. I'm simply pointing out that it can absolutely make sense for a world to not have teleport dominated trade, even if they have teleport spells.
This is where I struggle with the disconnect. If the party's lvl 17 wizard with an intelligence of 24 or so instantly realizes the potential of Teleportation Circles combined with Permanency, why has no one else thought of the same thing in the past eight thousand years?
The first experimental steam engines were made in the 16th century - 200 years later they were revolutionizing the world.
Teleportation Circle is not that first experimental steam engine - Teleportation Circle is a fully developed and perfectly functional steam ship. And it's been around for basically forever. And no one has ever thought to connect Permanency and Teleportation Circle, that both note in their spell description as perfectly functional?
They probably thought of it but realized how many jobs they'd lose by doing it. Even if you hire people to guard the circles, there would still be a lot of unemployed dock workers and navy men hanging about.
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Instead of asking "why doesn't this exist?", try asking "what would my PCs do to disrupt something like this?" Answering the second may well answer the first.
They probably thought of it but realized how many jobs they'd lose by doing it. Even if you hire people to guard the circles, there would still be a lot of unemployed dock workers and navy men hanging about.
You'd still need someone to move cargo through the circle, but yes - it frees up a significant amount of your work force to do other work than moving goods from point A to point B.
Instead of asking "why doesn't this exist?", try asking "what would my PCs do to disrupt something like this?" Answering the second may well answer the first.
That is an interesting question. The obvious answer that springs to mind is Dispel Magic. The minimum dispel DC of Teleportation Circle is 28, so they'd have to be about 8th level to even have a chance of getting the dispel magic off.
They probably thought of it but realized how many jobs they'd lose by doing it. Even if you hire people to guard the circles, there would still be a lot of unemployed dock workers and navy men hanging about.You'd still need someone to move cargo through the circle, but yes - it frees up a significant amount of your work force to do other work than moving goods from point A to point B.
Assuming they can do other work other than moving goods. Most of those guys doing the dirty work either don't have the smarts, the money, or the opportunities for social class advancement. Maybe they'd get into the military or mining, or if the discipline doesn't suit them, you'll see a lot more criminals.
Though that's a "positive" spin to unemployment if I ever saw one ;)
I still think that the permanent teleport circle is still easier to destroy than a fleet of merchant ships. The teleport circles would be like putting your eggs in a basket. Once one goes down, It'll be a lot of money to set it back up.
But unless you are in a gonzo high magic world, NPC wizards don't do this kind of thing for the same reason nobles still live in castles.A lack of thought about the impact of magic and flying monsters on an internally consistent world?
More likely a purposeful ignoring of what a world with magic would really look like in favor of a medieval style world that "D&D" worlds most often resemble and a world where PC's are the special protagonists not simply one of millions of similar people. The novel use of magic makes players feel special, which is generally the idea of role playing. You take that away when every possible use of magic has already been tried and accounted for in the setting.
More likely a purposeful ignoring of what a world with magic would really look like in favor of a medieval style world that "D&D" worlds most often resemble and a world where PC's are the special protagonists not simply one of millions of similar people. The novel use of magic makes players feel special, which is generally the idea of role playing. You take that away when every possible use of magic has already been tried and accounted for in the setting.But unless you are in a gonzo high magic world, NPC wizards don't do this kind of thing for the same reason nobles still live in castles.A lack of thought about the impact of magic and flying monsters on an internally consistent world?
Honestly, I want to tell a story with swashbuckling pirates and exploration. If me not taking into account Teleport makes me a lazy world builder like some have stated above, well I guess I'll just keep running my game poorly while my players have fun in it. This is the cross I must bare ;)
Of course they have. That's why you'll find teleportation circles in the world. And 23,500 (47,000 for a round trip) gp isn't cheap if it takes someone a single 3rd level spell to undo everything. What they haven't done is mass produce it. Well, at least, in a world where they haven't. And there are good and logical reasons for it. Didn't care about the money, didn't want to get into logistics business, tried and got ruined, etc.
You know what costs less than 47k gp? An 8th caster level command word activated device that produces at will dispel magic. For 60k you can get an 11th level one, so that even 20th level permanency effects can be undone on a natural 20. 2 minutes on average to utterly flush your investment down the toilet.
And that's just for the people who need it done in 2 minutes. If you can wait a few days, try a 12k gp device that does 11th caster level dispel magic 1/day. If you have a spellcaster or Use Magic Device, a wand of dispel magic (11th caster level) provides 50 chances for the low low cost of 24,750 gp. (Of course, if you are making a habit of this, you'll get more ruined circles for your buck by spending the 45k gp to get a 20th caster level wand, with its 50% chance to nuke 20th level circles, and 65% chance to tear apart the 17th minimum caster level ones.)
It's probably the same reason that summoned boats don't dominate the shipping business. When your buff gets dispelled, it's annoying. When your teleport circle does, you are out 24k. This is very much similar to the concept of China's anti-aircraft carrier missile. If it is much cheaper to destroy your opponent's massive awesome thing than it is to build it, the awesome thing quickly becomes a bad, unsustainable idea.
Again, this is not to say that you can't have a system of interconnected teleport circles. Just that there are reasons to not have one as well.
Of course they have. That's why you'll find teleportation circles in the world. And 23,500 (47,000 for a round trip) gp isn't cheap if it takes someone a single 3rd level spell to undo everything. What they haven't done is mass produce it. Well, at least, in a world where they haven't. And there are good and logical reasons for it. Didn't care about the money, didn't want to get into logistics business, tried and got ruined, etc.
You know what costs less than 47k gp? An 8th caster level command word activated device that produces at will dispel magic. For 60k you can get an 11th level one, so that even 20th level permanency effects can be undone on a natural 20. 2 minutes on average to utterly flush your investment down the toilet.
And that's just for the people who need it done in 2 minutes. If you can wait a few days, try a 12k gp device that does 11th caster level dispel magic 1/day. If you have a spellcaster or Use Magic Device, a wand of dispel magic (11th caster level) provides 50 chances for the low low cost of 24,750 gp. (Of course, if you are making a habit of this, you'll get more ruined circles for your buck by spending the 45k gp to get a 20th caster level wand, with its 50% chance to nuke 20th level circles, and 65% chance to tear apart the 17th minimum caster level ones.)
It's probably the same reason that summoned boats don't dominate the shipping business. When your buff gets dispelled, it's annoying. When your teleport circle does, you are out 24k. This is very much similar to the concept of China's anti-aircraft carrier missile. If it is much cheaper to destroy your opponent's massive awesome thing than it is to build it, the awesome thing quickly becomes a bad, unsustainable idea.
Again, this is not to say that you can't have a system of interconnected teleport circles. Just that there are reasons to not have one as well.
I wonder what terrors a disenchanter could do to a teleport circle.
Something not mentioned is that Golarion actually does have a couple 'no-teleport' zones. The Mana Wastes immediately come to mind, but woe to anyone attempting teleport shenanigans anywhere near the Hungry Mountains in Ustalav. (See 'Shadows at Gallowspire')
There's also something to be said for seeing somebody walking up versus just having them suddenly appear; wouldn't you be alarmed if people just appeared out of nowhere instead of knowing that they're approaching? I mean, unless there's a major batch of protocol and letters informing and setting up the teleport, wouldn't people teleporting without notice elicit near terror (in a world with the most common creatures that teleport are evil Outsiders).
I always wished there was a spell that announced your arrival before you appeared, you know, just to be polite. (like a doorbell, or audible announcement like 'Here comes x'.)
It is this line of thinking that makes me think that teleportation is for impatient people without manners. (not serious)
Though that's a "positive" spin to unemployment if I ever saw one ;)
It's the kind of development that changes societies. Consider how large a percentage of the base population were employed producing food in the 15th century, then consider how large a percentage produces food now.
More effective food production meant that more hands could be spared for other types of work, such as crafts.
However I probably wouldn't phrase it that way to the people getting fired!
I still think that the permanent teleport circle is still easier to destroy than a fleet of merchant ships. The teleport circles would be like putting your eggs in a basket. Once one goes down, It'll be a lot of money to set it back up.
This is true, though it would also make sense to provide decent security. I can imagine a teleportation circle facility having security similar to an airport. Security checks, screening etc.
It's not like it's going to be out in the middle of a field where anyone can walk up to it and spend 2 minutes getting their "Dispel Magic dongle" to work.
And considering sailing ships are 10k apiece I don't really think a teleportation circle priced at 24k is that bad, considering companies like the East India Trading had hundreds of ships plying the sea at any one point.
All that said, I don't really think this conversation is going somewhere. I find that there is a break in reality in the Pathfinder campaign setting (and numerous other settings for that matter) since it provides spells and methods that will completely change how the world would work, and then never uses that potential, or explains why no one is using it. If you can ignore that, more power to you. Personally, I find that particular break annoying and a little bit lazy.
I always wished there was a spell that announced your arrival before you appeared, you know, just to be polite. (like a doorbell, or audible announcement like 'Here comes x'.)
I recall the Riftwar saga had something like this... Wow, haven't read that in a long time.
You could research your own teleportation spell? Give it a one-round casting time and when initiating the spell a Ghost Sound with whatever audio effect you choose will play at the arrival location.
Teleportation is for mid-level casters. A demiplane with a network of Portals is much more efficient. You'll have the advantage of both delivering the cargo and charging tolls to use it. You pissed off Cousin Vinnie and his bona fide union workers? Big deal, other casters at your level are antagonizing Archdukes of Hell.
Teleportation is for mid-level casters. A demiplane with a network of Portals is much more efficient. You'll have the advantage of both delivering the cargo and charging tolls to use it. You pissed off Cousin Vinnie and his bona fide union workers? Big deal, other casters at your level are antagonizing Archdukes of Hell.
No you don't piss off vinnie. You still need flunkies to move the stuff on and off the pad or if nothing else you can simply give them make-work jobs. Cheaper in most cases than actual bribes.
Though that's a "positive" spin to unemployment if I ever saw one ;)It's the kind of development that changes societies. Consider how large a percentage of the base population were employed producing food in the 15th century, then consider how large a percentage produces food now.
More effective food production meant that more hands could be spared for other types of work, such as crafts.
However I probably wouldn't phrase it that way to the people getting fired!
Also similar to the changes I feel retail will have to adapt to over the next few years, as we move further and further away from the producer-distributor-retailer-customer model in so many areas.
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Most goods traded are high volume, low cost. 240 US short tons of potatoes for instance is 9,998.5 cubic feet of potatoes. I'd really like to legitimately see 10,000 cubic feet of potatoes balanced on a brachiosaurus without some form of magical storage. While we don't suffer wear and tear as PCs, NPCs definitely have them affect their things. Accidents happen.
Teleport was never designed with freight transportation in question so it doesn't have any restrictions on the amount of stuff you can carry as long as you can carry it but if there were rules about it I'd assume that there would be harder restrictions.
Another issue that comes to mind...
Assuming a world where magic can be utilized to this extent, if you're shifting huge quantities of goods through magical means by hiring a wizard, I'm hiring a wizard to develop a spell to intercept that transportation and have those goods emerge at a new destination.
Piracy just took on a whole new dimension.
Another issue that comes to mind...
Assuming a world where magic can be utilized to this extent, if you're shifting huge quantities of goods through magical means by hiring a wizard, I'm hiring a wizard to develop a spell to intercept that transportation and have those goods emerge at a new destination.
Piracy just took on a whole new dimension.
And now we have a party of interdimensional privateers, preying upon armored transports travelling through the aether... I think that sounds like something worth exploring.
Also similar to the changes I feel retail will have to adapt to over the next few years, as we move further and further away from the producer-distributor-retailer-customer model in so many areas.
Retail is definitely in the danger zone - I also expect teachers will have to make some adjustments down the line. Another example is the post services, which changed dramatically with the introduction of the internet and email.
Though that's a "positive" spin to unemployment if I ever saw one ;)It's the kind of development that changes societies. Consider how large a percentage of the base population were employed producing food in the 15th century, then consider how large a percentage produces food now.
More effective food production meant that more hands could be spared for other types of work, such as crafts.
However I probably wouldn't phrase it that way to the people getting fired!I still think that the permanent teleport circle is still easier to destroy than a fleet of merchant ships. The teleport circles would be like putting your eggs in a basket. Once one goes down, It'll be a lot of money to set it back up.This is true, though it would also make sense to provide decent security. I can imagine a teleportation circle facility having security similar to an airport. Security checks, screening etc.
It's not like it's going to be out in the middle of a field where anyone can walk up to it and spend 2 minutes getting their "Dispel Magic dongle" to work.
And considering sailing ships are 10k apiece I don't really think a teleportation circle priced at 24k is that bad, considering companies like the East India Trading had hundreds of ships plying the sea at any one point.
All that said, I don't really think this conversation is going somewhere. I find that there is a break in reality in the Pathfinder campaign setting (and numerous other settings for that matter) since it provides spells and methods that will completely change how the world would work, and then never uses that potential, or explains why no one is using it. If you can ignore that, more power to you. Personally, I find that particular break annoying and a little bit lazy.
I always wished there was a spell that announced your arrival before you appeared, you know, just to be polite. (like a doorbell, or audible announcement like 'Here comes x'.)I recall the...
Well like I said before, may be lazy, but my players ain't complaining. ;)
Well like I said before, may be lazy, but my players ain't complaining.
Nothing wrong with that! I'm guessing it's a bit of a pet peeve of mine, and it's not particular to Pathfinder. For instance I find it really hard to enjoy a book or TV show if it's littered with plot holes. It just pulls me right out of the storyline.
The duration is dismissable by the caster - if a circle looks like it might fall to the enemy he might simply pull the plug on it.
Personally I quite like how Kirth handles teleportation magic - it makes sense and it creates a reason for building castles and city walls in a world that's populated by flying monsters and teleportation magic.
About the whole "teleport circles are a security risk!" thing: You know exactly where whoever arrives is going to be arriving. If you want, you can point it an AMF, orr surround it with walls of force, or sculpt a dome around it with every inch covered with paralyzing runes, and just turn everything off when you expect a shipment. You can even set up someone just scrying the original circle, and if it's interrupted somehow, you know the gig is up and can turn on all the nasty traps you want.
Of course, you are still open to a whole army teleporting to somewhere else to your country, but that's unrelated to having a teleport circle system running.
Plus, while the incoming traffic is pretty safe, I'd worry more about the outgoing. I can always pay off/mind control your guards and (after tracing them) your scryer, sneak in, dispel the existing circle, and place a new one that has a brand new destination ;) Or as mentioned earlier, research a method of intercepting the teleport and redirecting it.
Pretty much anything that can be done can also be undone, any security measure circumvented.
Eventually all of this could reach the point where the expense of keeping it safe from tampering outweighs all of the savings from using magic, and you're back putting stuff on ships - and right there is the GM fiat call for whether this kind of system is viable in their world or not.
About the whole "teleport circles are a security risk!" thing: You know exactly where whoever arrives is going to be arriving. If you want, you can point it an AMF, orr surround it with walls of force, or sculpt a dome around it with every inch covered with paralyzing runes, and just turn everything off when you expect a shipment. You can even set up someone just scrying the original circle, and if it's interrupted somehow, you know the gig is up and can turn on all the nasty traps you want.
Of course, you are still open to a whole army teleporting to somewhere else to your country, but that's unrelated to having a teleport circle system running.
Plus, while the incomingPretty much anything that can be done can also be undone, any security measure circumvented.
Eventually all of this could reach the point where the expense of keeping it safe from tampering outweighs all of the savings from using magic, and you're back putting stuff on ships - and right there is the GM fiat call for whether this kind of system is viable in their world or not.
This kind of feels like reaching to me - who is this mysterious entity who wants to dismantle teleportation circles so badly, what does he have against teleportation magic, and how can he match resources with an 18th level spellcaster with the resources of a nation?
I'm guessing we're past Tommy and Steve from the Teamster's Union hiring some thugs to beat you up in the alley behind O'Malley's now.
If it's a rival nation, while I can definitely find sabotage a viable approach, I'd also consider it likely that they'd try to establish teleportation circles of their own.
This kind of feels like reaching to me - who is this mysterious entity who wants to dismantle teleportation circles so badly, what does he have against teleportation magic, and how can he match resources with an 18th level spellcaster with the resources of a nation?I'm guessing we're past Tommy and Steve from the Teamster's Union hiring some thugs to beat you up in the alley behind O'Malley's now.
If it's a rival nation, while I can definitely find sabotage a viable approach, I'd also consider it likely that they'd try to establish teleportation circles of their own.
If you're Trade Syndicate A, and you were able to afford this spellcaster to improve your profits, and I'm Trade Syndicate B and see a way to spend the same amount of cash on a caster of my own to redirect your deliveries to my customers, I end up both killing the competition and saving on buying some goods.
A lot of people will want to come up with viable reasons to explain why this isn't already happening in the world. Often that's just a matter of flipping the scenario around a little. It's equally viable to ignore this option if you *do* want that magical cargo system.
Yeah, securing one location will cost you more than securing a fleet of ships. Because of magical ninja reasons.Plus, while the incoming traffic is pretty safe, I'd worry more about the outgoing. I can always pay off/mind control your guards and (after tracing them) your scryer, sneak in, dispel the existing circle, and place a new one that has a brand new destination ;) Or as mentioned earlier, research a method of intercepting the teleport and redirecting it.
Pretty much anything that can be done can also be undone, any security measure circumvented.
Eventually all of this could reach the point where the expense of keeping it safe from tampering outweighs all of the savings from using magic, and you're back putting stuff on ships - and right there is the GM fiat call for whether this kind of system is viable in their world or not.
Because when you hire a L18 caster for security, I can hire a L18 caster to counter them. When you hire a L20, or two of them , or ten of them, I can match it, up until the point where the world runs out of high-level casters willing to work for either of us and they realize they're now a limited supply resource in high demand and can raise their prices to astronomical levels.
There comes a point where all of this outweighs paying for a ship, a crew, and a few mercenaries. Where that point actually is differs between game worlds, so it's quite easy to make everyone here happy.
I mentioned it up thread but the solution that I am going with is superstition. Teleported goods will make you sick, will not work, or are rendered valueless in the eyes of the common man. Most people above 2nd level know that there is nothing to the superstition but most bulk goods need to be used be low level NPCs who just will flat out refuse it.This needs no house rules and allows freight to be teleported when dramatic but stops it from becoming the economic system. A wizard might be able to get around the superstition in time but it is not worth so they do not bother.
Superstition sounds like a nice way to handle it. If you ever needed to back that up, all it takes is someone with enough of a reason to prevent teleported goods becoming popular (and there's certainly enough of those) to sneak some poison into a shipment, and suddenly there's "proof" and panic.
Also, a major lack of high level casters in the setting with the interest of dominating trade via teleportation. That's the primary reason the Shackles makes sense.
Also, a major lack of high level casters in the setting with the interest of dominating trade via teleportation. That's the primary reason the Shackles makes sense.
While I tend to go with that too, there's a lot of variance across the boards in how people populate their respective Golarions. I've seen PC classes represented in both the dozens and the thousands by different posters, so sometimes it's good to have some extra reasons for things being the way they are stored up your sleeve. Especially if you have players that enjoy picking economic models apart ;)
Superstition sounds like a nice way to handle it. If you ever needed to back that up, all it takes is someone with enough of a reason to prevent teleported goods becoming popular (and there's certainly enough of those) to sneak some poison into a shipment, and suddenly there's "proof" and panic.
*Shrug*
Sailship to steamship.
horse-drawn buggy to T-ford.
abacus to calculator.
Typewriter to Personal Computer.
Dial-up to cable.
Hardbox to flat-screen.
home phone to cellphone. Hell, cell phone to smartphone.
If new technology enters the market and it's sufficiently better than its predecessor, odds are it will keep growing. There can and often will be growth pains, protests, even political action... Doesn't really matter. It's really, really hard to stop progress.
Consider cars, or air travel. In 1900 it would essentially be "magic" to see a cart move without a horse. By 1930 cars would be relatively common.
As for cost... An airplane will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to build and can be brought down by a Stinger launcher worth $38 000. Doesn't change the fact that there are thousands of flights crossing the world as we speak.
And I'm still struggling to figure out who this "anti-Teleportation" group is. Apart from the people who previously worked in transportation (and I'm guessing an 18th level wizard wasn't lugging luggage for a living), why would anyone be opposed to a form of transportation that will dramatically improve their way of life?
How does Kirth handle teleportation in a way that makes castles make sense?
Spells with the scrying or teleportation descriptor cannot penetrate an area that is entirely enclosed by a thin panel of lead, an inch of metal, 1 foot of solid stone, three feet of earth etc.
IE royalty build and live in castles because it provides them with both mundane and magical protection - no need to worry about divination wizards selling their secrets to the highest bidder or commando teams teleporting into their bedroom at night.
It's a small alteration but it helps rationalize a great deal of the otherwise very odd decisions made in Golarion.