Why would merchants use ships instead of teleportation to transport cargo?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Without magic, one trip can take 2-3 years and provide profit of 10-20 times the money spent with risk that one of every third ship will never return. So I'm sure that lot of investors are interested of what magic can do.

Also, the price of tea was important enough to start wars and revolutions in many continents in our history.

Liberty's Edge

Bunnyboy wrote:

Without magic, one trip can take 2-3 years and provide profit of 10-20 times the money spent with risk that one of every third ship will never return. So I'm sure that lot of investors are interested of what magic can do.

Also, the price of tea was important enough to start wars and revolutions in many continents in our history.

Sure, and some of them will hire the one in 600,000 people who can and will do this for them (would be one in 300,000 people for a shorter trip, but you said 'years'). But, uh, not everyone can afford his time. Or, hell, get a meeting with the guy. I mean, there's what, one per country? Maybe two? It might be easier to get an audience with the King...


They may actually do it. "Dear king. It is about time to talk of your loans, but if you listen our conserns, we cladly give you another year."

It is surprisily expensive being a king and it is more rule than exception than they have to borrow money to upkeep his lifestyle, army and other things. They bankers and merchants are more than happy to get rewarded by influence, titles, land or priviliges like monopoly.


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An infrastructure based on permanent teleportation circles would be amazingly efficient, and it would be worth every gold piece to have a couple of high level wizards put down a couple of these each to connect all of your major cities with some redundancy just to broaden the bandwidth a little.

Idea stolen for my setting.

Liberty's Edge

Back in v3.5 my group used Ring gates and Shrink item. Pathfinder added restrictions to ring gates which reduce their usefulness for this, but shrink item is still a ludicrously powerful spell. Forget the Brachiasaurus... just shrink the cargo down to 1/4000th the weight and stick it in your backpack.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Shrink Item has a problem in that it is a volume measurement in 1 foot cubes, not an area measurement. You can't really affect any meaningful amount of cargo with Shrink Item, unless perhaps you Widen it and increase the area affected to x8.

If the cargo is super valuable, then you run into the same problem anyone transporting super valuable cargo has...other people ambushing you to steal it. After all, it's cheaper to divine the teleport arrival location of the guy toting 50k of adamantium ingots, ambush him and steal the goods then it is to set up a teleportation travel route.

===Aelryinth


This thread makes me think of teleportation trap. :o


CBDunkerson wrote:
. . . Ring gates. . .

! ...I just got the mental image of a halfling using returning chakrams made from ring gates to emulate Portal.

Widen and Shrink:
Aelryinth wrote:
Shrink Item has a problem in that it is a volume measurement in 1 foot cubes, not an area measurement. You can't really affect any meaningful amount of cargo with Shrink Item, unless perhaps you Widen it and increase the area affected to x8.

I will agree with this in as far as it is an extremely limiting factor. However,

PFSRD wrote:
Widen Spell. . . You can alter a burst, emanation, or spread-shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell's area increase by 100%. . .
"PFSRD wrote:

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

PFSRD wrote:

Shrink Item

. . .
Range touch
. . .

I not sure that widen can be applied to shrink item. If there is an argument for a touch spell operating as an emanation, I'll be happy to be wrong. In fact, I'd prefer it, because I'd like widen spell to be more useful than I think it is.

Aelryinth wrote:
If the cargo is super valuable, then you run into the same problem anyone transporting super valuable cargo has...other people ambushing you to steal it. After all, it's cheaper to divine the teleport arrival location of the guy toting 50k of adamantium ingots, ambush him and steal the goods then it is to set up a teleportation travel route.

Plot Hook! Scry and... Sly. Casters are the new pirates.


Kain Darkwind wrote:
beej67 wrote:

(...)

Sure. But a sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole, within the core rules, could transfer more tea from India to England in a year than the entire Dutch East India Company did in the same time frame.
(...)

To go from London to China is 6 trips. 12 teleports for a round trip. Looking at the NPC Codex, a 10th level sorc has 4 5th level spells per day. 3 days for a round trip, at a tonnage of 8. In a month, he could move as much as a carrack does in a single trip. He's also teleported 120 times, suffering approximately 1.2 mishaps, ended up in a thematically similar area 2.4 times (which might be out of range for his next teleport) and ended up off target 3.6 times.

He could do good business for himself, sure. He's not going to monopolize the tea trade though.

Lets skip China and just talk India, which is closer. That's 12,000 miles one way, by sea. At the Pathfinder listed boat speed of 2 miles per hour, that's about a 16 month round trip. So taking your analysis at face value, that single sorcerer is moving the equivalent of 16.7 carrack's worth of tea over equivalent time frames, presuming of course he only owns one portable hole. Give him something more reasonable for the operation, like say 4 portable holes, he can move more tea than a fleet of 67 boats.

So yes, he is absolutely going to monopolize the tea trade. Don't make me do an ROI calculation on that, because it's going to be laughable. Your one sorcerer is replacing not only 67 boats, but the cost to crew those boats. And yes, there are mishaps in casting, but there are also mishaps trying to navigate your fleet of 67 boats around the Cape of Good Hope, including but not limited to mermen, sea monsters, pirates, hags, and lord knows what else in a fantasy setting. Try rolling random encounters for a 16 month boat ride.

I can certainly tell you which operation I'd insure if I was Lloyd's of London.

So yes. If you want oceanic distance trade to be "a thing" in your campaign, you must nerf teleport somehow or another. Maybe you don't want it to be "a thing," and that's cool. But if your campaign has pirates, and the pirates are raiding legit trading boats, and you want your campaign's economy to make any sense whatsoever, teleport has to get houseruled or you have to adjust the overall availability of magic in a very significant way.


Also, all you guys arguing about whether or not your dinosaur can have an INT score high enough to activate a magic item have forgotten about the "Awaken" spell.


beej67 wrote:
Also, all you guys arguing about whether or not your dinosaur can have an INT score high enough to activate a magic item have forgotten about the "Awaken" spell.

At which point it is no longer a dumb pack animal and can start to get ideas, so to speak?


Read Awaken closer. He'll serve you within reason until you cast Awaken on something else. Cut him in on the profits and he's certain to go with your operation.

Or, as I say, just use a bunch of portable holes and teleport yourself instead. The only difference between the two is whether your profits are amazing or ridiculously amazing, depending on the scenario.

GM: "Okay, you have three month's downtime. How do you spend it?"
PC: "Make more money than the entire Dutch East India Company, for a couple teleport mishaps."
GM: "Kewl."


beej67 wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
beej67 wrote:

(...)

Sure. But a sorcerer with teleport and a portable hole, within the core rules, could transfer more tea from India to England in a year than the entire Dutch East India Company did in the same time frame.
(...)

To go from London to China is 6 trips. 12 teleports for a round trip. Looking at the NPC Codex, a 10th level sorc has 4 5th level spells per day. 3 days for a round trip, at a tonnage of 8. In a month, he could move as much as a carrack does in a single trip. He's also teleported 120 times, suffering approximately 1.2 mishaps, ended up in a thematically similar area 2.4 times (which might be out of range for his next teleport) and ended up off target 3.6 times.

He could do good business for himself, sure. He's not going to monopolize the tea trade though.

Lets skip China and just talk India, which is closer. That's 12,000 miles one way, by sea. At the Pathfinder listed boat speed of 2 miles per hour, that's about a 16 month round trip. So taking your analysis at face value, that single sorcerer is moving the equivalent of 16.7 carrack's worth of tea over equivalent time frames, presuming of course he only owns one portable hole. Give him something more reasonable for the operation, like say 4 portable holes, he can move more tea than a fleet of 67 boats.

So yes, he is absolutely going to monopolize the tea trade. Don't make me do an ROI calculation on that, because it's going to be laughable. Your one sorcerer is replacing not only 67 boats, but the cost to crew those boats. And yes, there are mishaps in casting, but there are also mishaps trying to navigate your fleet of 67 boats around the Cape of Good Hope, including but not limited to mermen, sea monsters, pirates, hags, and lord knows what else in a fantasy setting. Try rolling random encounters for a 16 month boat ride.

I can certainly tell you which operation I'd insure if I was Lloyd's of London.

So yes. If you want oceanic distance...

I suspect you still end up widely missing the goalpost of outshipping the VOC with one sorcerer and one bag. As a note, 700 tons of cargo per East Indiaman is a better estimate than 100.


Yeah but then assassins!

I think the funniest argument made so far is that some rogues might kill you or something. I think it is important to note that you are not just making money for yourself, you are making money for everyone you are connected to (probably more overall for them).

To think that some boat guild or something is going to take you out is laughable to me, since there would be hell to pay for many merchant guilds for killing their meal ticket


RDM42 wrote:
beej67 wrote:
Also, all you guys arguing about whether or not your dinosaur can have an INT score high enough to activate a magic item have forgotten about the "Awaken" spell.
At which point it is no longer a dumb pack animal and can start to get ideas, so to speak?

This.

That amount of free will is dangerous. And costly. Expect a good GM to take advantage of that. It means you just lost 50% of your profits or it walks. If it walks and causes problems, people will blame you for unleashing a huge monster on the country side. It doesn't matter that its a vegetarian. It crushes things. It eats Crops, even with a spindle (if you let it walk with some equipment). And think of some of the not smart people in real life who do stupid things without really contemplating the impact... Apply that to a huge animal.

If I want an ally, I use awaken. If I want a minion, I do something else.

CWheezy wrote:
. . . To think that some boat guild or something is going to take you out is laughable to me, since there would be hell to pay for many merchant guilds for killing their meal ticket

No. Other guilds will try to kill you for cutting so far into their profits that every town along the way that needed trade died.


Didn't the first elven kingdoms in Golaria have teleportation networks?


Te'Shen wrote:
No. Other guilds will try to kill you for cutting so far into their profits that every town along the way that needed trade died.

Merchant guild pays huge shipping expense.

Add teleporting Sorcerer.

Merchant guild no longer has to pay huge shipping expense.

This makes merchant guild....Angry?


Duskbreaker wrote:
Didn't the first elven kingdoms in Golaria have teleportation networks?

Yes. And flying motorcycles. But they sank beneath the waves as their magic proved to be their own undoing...

I mean the evil outsider Treerazeiroth attempted to crush them with a giant comet filled with ghosts of a dead planet and...

Wait... let me try again... Uhhmmm... ignore me.

Golariopedia wrote:
. . . The true history of the Sovyrian Stone has been lost to the ages. Legends speak of the mythical elven hero, Candlaron the Sculptor, who created the Sovyrian Stone and many other stone arches that the elves use to this day. These stone arches are known as Elf Gates and together form the Aiudara Network throughout the elven homeland of Kyonin. These gates, although thousands of years old, are mere copies of far more ancient magical gates that exist on Golarion. . . .

As to the guild bit...

CWheezy wrote:
Te'Shen wrote:
No. Other guilds will try to kill you for cutting so far into their profits that every town along the way that needed trade died.

Merchant guild pays huge shipping expense.

Add teleporting Sorcerer.

Merchant guild no longer has to pay huge shipping expense.

This makes merchant guild....Angry?

No. Guild A hires a sorcerer and makes a lot more money as they undercut Guild B & Guild C's prices. Guild B & C get together and use pooled resources to hire evil adventuring group X to kill Guild A's transport caster, his family, and everyone he ever loved, and any of the important members of Guild A's that might be perceived as wanting to retaliate.

Merchants compete. If one merchant sufficiently outstrips others, everyone will either start copying or improving as best as they can to recapture a market share or find some way to eliminate the competition. In a pseudo medieval setting, I see more elimination than streamlining of business models.


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Why would you just work for one guild lol, if you ship for all of them they will all love you. Also as stated before that would probably set up a guild war for killing their most valuable employee, which no one wants

Cutting 16 month trips down to once a week for the same amount of cargo seems pretty good imo.

Here is a question: Do you not like it because it makes the world economy very silly? That is totally fair and I agree! Instead of saying "I don't like it so I will reach for reasons why it is not possible" Say "I don't like it because of the consequences it has on the world and canon"

That way your real opinion is shown that I can respect, and you don't have to make "murder solves everything!" argument


Te'Shen wrote:
N. Jolly wrote:
So we're just discussing the Tippyverse now?. . .

I don't know. I kind of figured that's the directions most games took, and why most storytellers I know decide to change games around level 10. Maybe I've just been playing E10 and nobody told me.

There's less motivation in a 3.5/Pathfinder game to stay in your tower and research the secrets of the universe. You can't actually learn any of said secrets/magic without overcoming some sort of challenge, which then lets you unlock additional spells/slots/feats, which means the secluded master doesn't really exist. It's now almost exclusively the learn by doing concept so common in martial arts stories where a student puts together a style secret/understands the deeper technique when he's genuinely threatened.

I kind of like the teleporting wooly mammoth. It makes me smile. It also makes me think of silt striders. But it's just a thought exercise at this point. If I actually played such a sorcerer in game, I know my character would have more important things he's supposed to accomplish.

Yeah, this whole discussion is pretty much the Tippyverse.

Once you start down this path, you don't wind up with anything resembling historical fantasy. If that's what you want, more power to you.
Most fantasy gamers seem to want something closer to a medieval/renaissance/whatever historical period setting + magic, rather than a complete reimagining of what a world would really look like with a given set of magical rules.
So you handwave it.

As for "can't actually learn any of said secrets/magic without overcoming some sort of challenge", I've always assumed that at most applies to PCs in play. Is it ever actually stated in the rules that all NPCs must learn by gaining experience through overcoming encounters? Or even that PCs starting above 1st level must have adventured to gain those levels?

The world makes more sense to me if most inhabitants learn in the slow old-fashioned training or patient study and practice way and it's really only a small number of adventurers who actually learn to pick locks by killing goblins.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

CWheezy wrote:

Why would you just work for one guild lol, if you ship for all of them they will all love you. Also as stated before that would probably set up a guild war for killing their most valuable employee, which no one wants

Cutting 16 month trips down to once a week for the same amount of cargo seems pretty good imo.

Here is a question: Do you not like it because it makes the world economy very silly? That is totally fair and I agree! Instead of saying "I don't like it so I will reach for reasons why it is not possible" Say "I don't like it because of the consequences it has on the world and canon"

That way your real opinion is shown that I can respect, and you don't have to make "murder solves everything!" argument

the problem is not "Guild B isn't in on the action" and then letting Guild B get in on things.

It's every single stop along the trade route.

Think of the Silk Road of ancient times. It was a massive trade route that brought exotic goods of the East to the West, and the west to the East. Nations and city-states were basically founded JUST to help the trade flow through. Italian city-states sank one another's ships and those of rival countries in attempts to make ships loaded with these trade goods use their ports, where the cargo would be shuffled and sent off again, generating money for the new handlers.

When you establish that teleport route, everybody in between sees trade dry up. Maybe not ALL the trade...but just ask a merchant what a 10% drop in sales does to your bottom line. 20%. What happens when your merchant at the far end starts selling back down the reverse of the line, competing with the merchants that used to supply him?

The number of people and power groups you are affecting with this trick is Very Impressive. Sure, the people at the front, and the people at the end, are fine: one doesn't care, and the other gets stuff cheap. But every trader, merchant, supplier, laborer, wagoner, caravaneer, dockworker, taxing entity and business interest in between is going to hate your guts.

It's the mercantile equivalent of the enemy charming your best fighter. Your customer generating you money just stopped paying you, AND is taking away your business.

ANd he's a spellcaster, to boot!

That kind of stuff needs to be stamped out fast, before it REALLY starts giving people ideas.

Basically, the only way this would work without some violent protest is if every single community along the way was made a part of the new supply chain. Otherwise, you're going to see mass unemployment and migration, rulers losing people and power, etc, and in the typically violent universe of D&D, that brings out the knives. 'If killing one guy keeps me rolling in the gold, that guy is going to get dead' is a remarkable truism that has held firm for millennia.

==Aelryinth


beej67 wrote:
Kain Darkwind wrote:
He could do good business for himself, sure. He's not going to monopolize the tea trade though.
So yes, he is absolutely going to monopolize the tea trade. Don't make me do an ROI calculation on that, because it's going to be laughable.

Don't make you prove your point? Sure, as long as you realize I won't be buying into it either.

You don't need to nerf teleport. You simply need to have people not want to go into tea business with their world shattering power. Or maybe they don't want to work 365 days a week, since they can do enough business to be comfortable with significantly less than that. I know which one of those is easier as a DM.

The idea that assassins is laughable because the guy makes many people rich is also laughable. That makes him a bigger target. And since he needs to have waypoints along the path, ambushing him is simply a matter of setting up the teleport trap or even readied actions to take him out. We're not talking about boat guilds (since in a world where teleporting merchants dominate the market, boat guilds wouldn't really gain power) either, we're talking about criminal organizations, mercane cartels, etc.

Bottom line, teleporting merchants is great. It doesn't replace ships unless you want it to replace ships.


It may have been covered somewhere before, but think about what teleportation circle means in particular.

Okay the world is full of cranky archmages, that don't like being bothered with petty details like trade. Okay, got it. (Although you would think a couple would be intrigued with playing mogul).

But I think you could persuade at least one to make a Teleport Circle, and make it permanent.

So how much would a city pay for one? Even a one way one.

A lot, and I think a major city could meet some archmage's price.

Now other interested entities would be willing to pay for one. Wealthy individuals, rulers, trade groups.

Heck I'm quite sure they would sponsor and train someone EXPRESSLY so they could make one.

Right now it's in the rules. Right now so far as I know there is no official spell that lets you "hack" a Teleport effect (though I guess someone could research one, and Wish, Miracle, or even Limited Wish might let you do it).

So it is doable. All the handwaving and wringing of hands in the world won't make the rules say the City of Absalom couldn't make one, and have it go to Korvosa (and they are perfectly capable of financing one on the opposite end as well, assuming Korvosa didn't mind).

A cleric could make one with a scroll and Miracle for permanency, or just two scrolls from the magic shoppe.

Now people have done the math about how much you can move, etc.

Do you really think people don't exist who would pay almost any amount of money to have one?

Saying you can't buy one if you have enough money is more of a no go in this system, than saying every archmage is a misanthropic crank.

So they can exist. They should exist. The only reason you don't see them all over the place is the fact it ruins the flavor, as the person on page 1 said.

There is no other real reason. They should be all over the place. What Golarion has maybe 4000 years of civilization or so, at least in some places after the Starfall? There isn't an expiration date on Teleport Circles if they are permanent. You specifically have to destroy them.

So realistically they should be lots of places. And I mean lots. And all carefully guarded and treasured.

Whatever you think of the Tippyverse, he wasn't wrong about how Teleport Circles would change things, and most people don't care for that kind of setting. So it is just ignored. It'd be better to remove this from the list of spells that can be made permanent, but whatever.

Heck face it. All you need to make one is 9650 gp for a scroll of Teleport Circle, and 47,250 gp for a scroll of permanency (hmmm never noticed that as I read the rules there are different "strengths" of permanency, always just paid the component when cast).

So for about 60,000 you can set one up wherever, even without an archmage though it would be much cheaper with one.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

That's the great thing about tabletop gaming - if you really want to run a game of Merchant: The Accounting, you can do so. Most Pathfinder games focus on the usual cycle of find evil, kill evil, take evil's stuff, sell stuff, buy stuff, find new evil. Cornering the tea market using teleportation isn't important or relevant unless you want it to be.


Aelryinth wrote:
. . . Basically, the only way this would work without some violent protest is if every single community along the way was made a part of the new supply chain. Otherwise, you're going to see mass unemployment and migration, rulers losing people and power, etc, and in the typically violent universe of D&D, that brings out the knives. 'If killing one guy keeps me rolling in the gold, that guy is going to get dead' is a remarkable truism that has held firm for millennia. . . .

Agreed, and well put, Aelryinth.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Now, that works in theory, but by my calculations, only one in maybe 15,000 people is 12th level, and probably one in five of them at most are Wizards or others capable of casting Teleport (and probably less, actually). So one in 75,000 people are capable of doing this at all.

Going by the Game Mastery Guide's number on settlements, you can expect to find 5th level spellcasting services available in a Large Town, ie a typical settlement with a population of 2000 or more inhabitants is expected to have a spellcaster able to cast Teleport.

Granted you'll need a higher caster level to pull off the dinosaur transport, but portable holes etc are perfectly viable alternatives.

Finally, there is the ultimate transportation option - the teleport spell affects the caster no matter what size he is as long as he is only carrying his maximum load. In the ideal setup you want to increase the caster's maximum encumbrance as well as that of the pet.

We did some number crunching on this some months in the past... I'll see if I can dredge that thread up.

The Exchange

you are working with NPCs, this is doomed to failure.


beej67 wrote:

Read Awaken closer. He'll serve you within reason until you cast Awaken on something else. Cut him in on the profits and he's certain to go with your operation.

Or, as I say, just use a bunch of portable holes and teleport yourself instead. The only difference between the two is whether your profits are amazing or ridiculously amazing, depending on the scenario.

GM: "Okay, you have three month's downtime. How do you spend it?"
PC: "Make more money than the entire Dutch East India Company, for a couple teleport mishaps."
GM: "Kewl."

'Within reason'. Eventually, he's going to want days off, vacations, freetime ...

Within reason covers alot of ground for problems.


Sebastian wrote:
That's the great thing about tabletop gaming - if you really want to run a game of Merchant: The Accounting, you can do so. Most Pathfinder games focus on the usual cycle of find evil, kill evil, take evil's stuff, sell stuff, buy stuff, find new evil. Cornering the tea market using teleportation isn't important or relevant unless you want it to be.

Tea is just a symptom of a larger issue. Don't get stuck on the tea.

**

"Oh great adventurers, my name is Sorcerer Steve, and I wish to hire you to guard this treasure on its way to a far off land by boat!"

"Why don't you just teleport it there yourself?"

"That is not important or relevant!"

**

"Oh great adventurers, my name is Pirate Pete, and I wish you to join me in my mission to waylay a boat filled with fabulous riches on the way to Sorcerer Steve!"

"Why doesn't he just teleport his stuff around by himself?"

"That is not important or relevant!"

**

"Oh great adventurers, we are Pete and Steve! We wish you to join us in stealing a great artifact from Evil Eggbert!"

"Why don't you two just scry on his location, teleport to him while he's asleep, and take it yourself?"

"That is not important or relevant!"

***

Etc.

If you're going to build a game world, and that game world is going to be immersive for your players, the game world should make sense.

The Exchange

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The idea of teleportation replacing caravans and sailing ships is hardly new. The fact that magical items are simply high-cost commodities makes it reasonable that a high-Intelligence spellcaster would want millions of gold pieces (to buy items or materials with which to make them). Back when there was an XP cost (and even further back, when you had to chase power components all over 2nd Edition creation) there was a limit to how much money a wizard would like to accumulate.

So, yes, asking "why hasn't it happened?" requires a certain Sleight of Mind check from the GM. Of course, one possibility is that it does happen, but that every wizard hiring himself out as a teleport service already has all the traffic he can bear, and the remainder you see traveling the roads and seas is just overflow from the (relative) shortage of Wizard 11s (or clerics who get inventive with lesser planar ally.)

This, of course, can lead to frustrating moments when the party goes to buy a casting of any 5th+ level spell:

Barbarian: Grok not understand. Man in dress not cast rock to mud for Grok?
NPC Wizard-For-Hire: Sorry, buddy, I'm booked solid teleporting logs and flour for the next six weeks. How about in November?
Oracle: We'll pay double!
NPC Wizard-For-Hire: Sorry. I've got a contract and a deadline.
Barbarian: Grok is dissatisfied customer.


RDM42 wrote:
beej67 wrote:

Read Awaken closer. He'll serve you within reason until you cast Awaken on something else. Cut him in on the profits and he's certain to go with your operation.

Or, as I say, just use a bunch of portable holes and teleport yourself instead. The only difference between the two is whether your profits are amazing or ridiculously amazing, depending on the scenario.

GM: "Okay, you have three month's downtime. How do you spend it?"
PC: "Make more money than the entire Dutch East India Company, for a couple teleport mishaps."
GM: "Kewl."

'Within reason'. Eventually, he's going to want days off, vacations, freetime ...

Within reason covers alot of ground for problems.

I'd happily give Wally the Teleporting Wooly Mammoth two weeks paid vacation, two additional weeks sick time, and a salary better than the best craftsman in a medium sized city, in return for all the gross income of the Dutch East India Company without any of their expenses. Beats the heck out of being an unawakened wooly mammoth.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Magic as a widely used device that completely warps the game world away from its faux-medieval roots and turns it into the Jetsons is a different topic from how teleport impacts a particular adventure. In the case of the former, it's a non-issue unless you choose to make it an issue. In the latter, it requires some thought and planning, and can certainly affect how the game actually plays at the table (scry or die).

I thought this thread was about a world revolutionized into a magical industrial complex, which is only an issue if you choose to apply a modern capitalist/systematic/scientific way of thinking to the world at large rather than having fun killing monsters and taking their stuff.

Bottom line, there's no way to reconcile a game in which you have cool superpowers like flight, teleportation and the ability to turn fish into gold with a faux-medieval world where people ride horses and ship goods. You either hand waive it away, you strip out the super powers, or you play in some other internally consistent world that satisifies your sense of realism but is not even remotely faux-medieval. Pick whichever option you most prefer.


You don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water. A few simple tweaks to the base rules allow most of what we want in a fantasy setting to work properly. But the OP is right that you do, in fact, need to do a few tweaks.


But what about murder and all the towns based off trade routes disappearing???

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

You can easily have horses and teleports, once you realize that all you're doing is building a highway/rail system without the highways and rails.

Everything still has to move out from wherever your teleport circles are, and they'll do so in the old fashioned way until better mundane transportation comes along. You aren't going to put teleport circles into every village and hamlet. Getting a circle that hooks into the national system might be the event that means a city has 'arrived'.

They are also much easier to destroy then to erect.

==Aelryinth

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Meh. Whether you "need" a few tweaks depends on what you "need" in your rpg. There are a lot of rough edges in gaming because a fun system is in tension with a realistic system. See also: the 20th level barbarian who can survive a fall from orbit, armor that makes a person harder to hit instead of reducing damage, etc.

If your sense of realism demands that you address how teleportation works in the world, by all means, make such changes as you feel are necessary to satisfy your demands. But don't mistake your demands for realism with a need to actually change the game rules for all other players and groups. The game has been played for decades with these issues, and the same issues have survived multiple rules iterations, so cleary it is nowhere near a fatal flaw.


For me, ignoring the question of RAW and can it be done, etc., it comes down to the idea that in most game settings the PC's are supposed to be special. The rest of the world mainly follows standard norms, even if they seem silly with the availability of magic.

For example: Nobles still live in castles despite the fact that defensive fortifications in a world with magic should be very different and most stuff is still made my blacksmiths and weapon-smiths not with the spell fabricate.

If a PC wants to develop a teleport transport and trade network it should become the center of a campaign. Merchant consortiums would try to kill him, teleport pirates would try to steal his stuff, local gov'ts would try to tax or control his network, otherworldly entities would notice his constant trips through the dimensions and try to eat his brain. That would be awesome fun.

But unless you are in a gonzo high magic world, NPC wizards don't do this kind of thing for the same reason nobles still live in castles.


Mike Franke wrote:
But unless you are in a gonzo high magic world, NPC wizards don't do this kind of thing for the same reason nobles still live in castles.

A lack of thought about the impact of magic and flying monsters on an internally consistent world?


andreww wrote:
Mike Franke wrote:
But unless you are in a gonzo high magic world, NPC wizards don't do this kind of thing for the same reason nobles still live in castles.
A lack of thought about the impact of magic and flying monsters on an internally consistent world?

Or more likely the realization that an internally consistent world based on a set of rules for adventuring isn't really desirable or quite possibly possible.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Chengar Qordath wrote:
Money never stops being useful in Pathfinder. More money = more magic = more power for dealing demon said demon lords.
While true, there are a lot better things for a 12th level or higher Wizard to do to get money than undercut shipping prices via a large and expensive to feed animal and several magic items that are useless to you otherwise.

Dropping the dinosaur use, I keep hearing about how there are so much better and easier ways to make money by a 13th level caster. My question is what are they and how much better are they than gouging the price of your daily Greater/normal Teleport spells? It's not like it would be time consuming at all for the caster.

I don't have the numbers for it, but ships, caravans, pay roll, shipments lost en route, taxes for passing through areas, etc.: Large traders and shippers must have tremendous overheads per long distance shipment. A wizard could say charge 80% of that cost per spell, the merchants would take a 20% discount in a heartbeat, and Mr. Wizard would be back in his tower several thousand gold richer, drinking his magic martini while bound succubi bathe him about an hour after he left to work for the day.


Blood Money + Fabricate springs to mind and comes online at level 9, though that's fairly obvious. How much money you make per cast is basically limited by how high you can pump your strength modifier. Throw in a restoration spell (-100 GP) between each Fabricate and you're good to go.

With a bit of time and cash investment you can get some interesting things going with Downtime + Magic capital and crafting.


I'm surprised Treasure stitching hasn't come up yet.


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I cannot see a single reason magic could not transport cargo cheaper over the long run that a real ship. Except for reasons of the setting but forbidding it would require some serious hamster spinning.

With the amounts and magnitude of magic thrown around regularly simply setting up a 'point to point' teleport system would be trivial compared to other magical items/spells. Set up your teleport area outside the city bring it in through customs regularly via a bonded area or simply walk it the two miles or whatever using mules.

Longshoremen? Bribe them to sit on their behinds all day and move cargo on and off the teleport area or give them cushy jobs moving the cargo via mules. Railroads used to do similar things all the time. Thieves or assassins? They are just as willing to accept cumshaw. Rival shipping companies? If they can't afford their own magical transport they probably can't afford the price of an assassin who can beat their assassins or to beat the bribe already paid to the 'assassins guild' or however they are organized.

There's really no reason it couldn't be set up. And be a permanent money maker for the caster/crafter. Pay them a set fee per use worth say half the regular cost of transporting. Leave something for their heirs something that could keep paying forever. Someone would do it just because it hasn't been done if for no other reason. Maybe Joe the Wizard is sick of making vorpal blades of snickersnacking. Maybe he owes his sister a favor, maybe he just wants a simple way to make money.

Just my 2 coppers.


Kudaku wrote:

Blood Money + Fabricate springs to mind and comes online at level 9, though that's fairly obvious. How much money you make per cast is basically limited by how high you can pump your strength modifier. Throw in a restoration spell (-100 GP) between each Fabricate and you're good to go.

With a bit of time and cash investment you can get some interesting things going with Downtime + Magic capital and crafting.

I always forget Blood Money is a thing. Good idea you have there.


Here is an explanation for permanent teleportation circle not being made. There are not many 17+ level wizards in fact there are so few of them that they might well have come to an agreement about them. Wizards like being able to made a bunch of money in 5 minutes teleportation whenever they want. If they set up the circles things are taken out of their hands.

A wizard really only needs an income of 1,000 gp a day. If they make more then that they don't know what to do with it crafting rules being what they are. This way all wizards keep up the demand.

Liberty's Edge

chaoseffect wrote:
Dropping the dinosaur use, I keep hearing about how there are so much better and easier ways to make money by a 13th level caster. My question is what are they and how much better are they than gouging the price of your daily Greater/normal Teleport spells? It's not like it would be time consuming at all for the caster.

The Blood Money + Fabricate thing mentioned is solid, though Blood Money is pretty rare in-world so it's not gonna be common.

Aside from that, Efreeti Summoning is risky, but highly profitable, since you can net 50-65k per casting and still be offering a bargain to people who want Three Wishes. With good Bluff and acting obsequious you can likely pass the blame and anger of the Efreeti onto your client.

He can also raise the dead via Limited Wish, which is a service that you really should be able to charge more for than transportation. With Blood Money you can even do away with the normal 5k in Diamond Dust, making you able to significantly undercut any local Clerics and still make a hell of a profit if you like.

Even in the transportation field, there's Plane Shift, which seems like a spell that a lot of folks would want if they're interested in really long distance trade.

Control Weather is also something of a showstopper, with the ability to actively decide what your city and surrounding area's weather is being invaluable to food producers and the military among others. It's only a two mile radius...but that's per casting.

And then there's Simulacrum. If you can't make more money off Simulacrum than off Greater Teleport...you're doing something wrong.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:
Dropping the dinosaur use, I keep hearing about how there are so much better and easier ways to make money by a 13th level caster. My question is what are they and how much better are they than gouging the price of your daily Greater/normal Teleport spells? It's not like it would be time consuming at all for the caster.
And then there's Simulacrum. If you can't make more money off Simulacrum than off Greater Teleport...you're doing something wrong.

Some more interesting ideas overall, but for me personally I pretend Simulacrum isn't a spell because of the seemingly infinite number of seemingly unintended abuses; that doesn't stop it from being technically legit though, so good point. I'll have to take a look at the Efreeti summoner thing though because it really amuses me to have a man walking around with a business card with his profession listed as "Wish Broker."

Teleport freight transport still seems like it would be a highly profitable and worthwhile venture though. Maybe I'm thinking small time though with the Wizard acting as courier for someone else. With magical logistics he could probably drive damn near any mundane trade company out of business and have his own little empire... if he wasn't afraid of potential assassinate attempts. But hey, those are just part of a high level characters life.


fictionfan wrote:
A wizard really only needs an income of 1,000 gp a day.

Why would he stop on that? With income of 10,000 gp or even 100,000 gp a day he can pay others to do boring things like basic crafting. I'm sure you won't say no, if your boss suggest a rise on your salary, even if only half of that is enough to get your nive life.

Liberty's Edge

chaoseffect wrote:
Some more interesting ideas overall, but for me personally I pretend Simulacrum isn't a spell because of the seemingly infinite number of seemingly unintended abuses; that doesn't stop it from being technically legit though, so good point.

I don't go quite that far, but yeah, it's a bit crazy as written.

chaoseffect wrote:
I'll have to take a look at the Efreeti summoner thing though because it really amuses me to have a man walking around with a business card with his profession listed as "Wish Broker."

That does sound fun, yeah. :)

chaoseffect wrote:
Teleport freight transport still seems like it would be a highly profitable and worthwhile venture though. Maybe I'm thinking small time though with the Wizard acting as courier for someone else. With magical logistics he could probably drive damn near any mundane trade company out of business and have his own little empire... if he wasn't afraid of potential assassinate attempts. But hey, those are just part of a high level characters life.

Hey, I never said none of them would do it. Indeed, I believe I said something like as many as one in four high level Wizards would potentially do such a thing...that's just a really small number of people in absolute terms given the rarity of high level characters and the percentage who are Wizards (or Sorcerers with Greater Teleport).


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beej67 wrote:

**

"Oh great adventurers, my name is Sorcerer Steve, and I wish to hire you to guard this treasure on its way to a far off land by boat!"

"Why don't you just teleport it there yourself?"

"Because it's 100 tons of antimagiconium."

"Because it's an artifact, notoriously unreliable to teleport."
"Because it's a zoo, with over thirty species of exotic animals."
"Because I will be tending to over twenty other plots of mine while you minions get minioning."
"Because this is a decoy, you stupid patsies."
"Because I don't know teleport."
"Because I've never been there."
"Because I pay little peons like you to do these things, so that I am not assassinated by my enemies who are moving to counter my actions in the world."
"Because the land you are taking it to is hostile towards those of magic, and I am building up their trust in me. Be careful in displaying your power openly, Wizard Willy."

beej67 wrote:

"Oh great adventurers, my name is Pirate Pete, and I wish you to join me in my mission to waylay a boat filled with fabulous riches on the way to Sorcerer Steve!"

"Why doesn't he just teleport his stuff around by himself?"

"Because the rich and powerful do not deign to dirty their hands with manual labor like you and I. Viva la rivoluzione!"

"Because the treasure is the princess, Steve's spoiled niece, and she is decidedly unwilling to travel. We will kidnap her and force the king to abdicate and hold elections. Viva la rivoluzione!"
"Because this treasure is a golden statue 169 feet tall, in obvious contempt of the proletariat's fear of the number 13. It's capture shall allow us to fund the people's struggle against the bourgeoisie, as well as destroying the symbols of their oppression. Viva la rivoluzione!"

beej67 wrote:

"Oh great adventurers, we are Pete and Steve! We wish you to join us in stealing a great artifact from Evil Eggbert!"

"Why don't you two just scry on his location, teleport to him while he's asleep, and take it yourself?"

"It's dangerous."

"Plausible deniability."
"Teleport trap."
"Artifacts."
"Guarded against scrying."
"High Will save. Might want to not put all your eggs in the compulsion basket either, Enchantress Esther."
"He doesn't sleep."
"It's in his bloodstream."
"Lead."
"Faerzress"
"We're cowards."
"We're rich."
"We dislike risk."
"We're secretly trying to ruin your reputation, setting you up for the next part of the plot arc."
"Golems."
"Dragons."
"Off plane."
"Demons."
"Traps."

beej67 wrote:
If you're going to build a game world, and that game world is going to be immersive for your players, the game world should make sense.

Yeah. It should. Hopefully your DM can come up with something better than I could after being awake for thirty some hours. But if not, he's welcome to borrow from my impromptu list, assuming he cleans it off first. Straw seems to be everywhere around here.

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