I am here to stat my argument on the rules in question and ask for opinions and clarifications if need be.
Rules: Quickened spell
You can cast spells in a fraction of the normal time.
Benefit: Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 round or 1 full-round action cannot be quickened.
Level Increase: +4 (a quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell's actual level.)
Casting a quickened spell doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special: You can apply the effects of this feat to a spell cast spontaneously, so long as it has a casting time that is not more than 1 full-round action, without increasing the spell's casting time.
Counterspell:Counterspelling Metamagic Spells: Whether or not a spell has been enhanced by a metamagic feat does not affect its vulnerability to counterspelling or its ability to counterspell another spell (see Magic).
How Counterspells Work
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing to ready an action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. You may still move at your normal speed, since ready is a standard action.
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent's spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can't do either of these things.
To complete the action, you must then cast an appropriate spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (or have a slot of the appropriate level available), you cast it, creating a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.
Ready Action:Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
So here is the question, that in my view the rules are grey (at best) in their explanation of the interaction of quickened spells interacting with counterspells when the quickened feat has been added to any given spell in question.
Can a standard spell counter a quickened spell when you incorporate the time factor into the equation.
By RAW, yes. RAI, I would think yes. Because readying an action you are waiting for it, so even if it is cast faster than normal, you already made time to react. That said, I'd probably have the player trying to counter the spell roll a 50% miss chance because the spell IS getting fired of faster than he had anticipated.
Counterspelling Metamagic Spells: Whether or not a spell has been enhanced by a metamagic feat does not affect its vulnerability to counterspelling or its ability to counterspell another spell (see Magic).
Being affected by a metamagic feat doesn't affect countering a spell.
Quicken Spell is a metamagic feat.Therefore, a Quick Spell can be countered as normal.
No grey area at all.
While Quickened Spells do not provoke attacks of opportunity, they can still be Counterspelled, so yes. Now, if you ready an action to counterspell the enemy caster's Fireball and he casts a Fireball and a Quickened Fireball, you would only get to Counterspell one of them, most likely the first one.
Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.
Gotta identify the spell before you can counter it.
Does it matter for the purposes of identifying the spell if:
It is quickened?
It is stilled?
It is stilled and silenced?
You must be able to clearly see the spell as it is cast... how could you if you were dealing with a stilled and silent spell?
Hrm...
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Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors.Gotta identify the spell before you can counter it.
Does it matter for the purposes of identifying the spell if:
It is quickened?
It is stilled?
It is stilled and silenced?You must be able to clearly see the spell as it is cast... how could you if you were dealing with a stilled and silent spell?
Hrm...
It's a mystery. But it works.
This may be where the rules sorta bump into themselves.
Spellcraft clearly says you must be able to see the spell.
However, the Counterspell section also clearly says that Metamagic Feats are not taken into account.
So although a Stilled/Silenced Spell is giving no indication as far as movement or sound, something is coalescing that the counterspeller is "sensing" somehow.
<shrug>
That said, I'd probably have the player trying to counter the spell roll a 50% miss chance because the spell IS getting fired of faster than he had anticipated.
Just why?
Nobody ever bother about a fighter who ready an action between the 1st and the 2nd attack of a full attacking enemy. Heck, nobody ever bother when you ready with trigger like "When he draw the weapon", and draw a weapon with quick draw is a free action. Or, if you prefer, you can ready an action with any trigger, even with a trigger that involve a free action. And the swift action required for quickened spell requires a greater effort to accomplish than a free action. So, why you bother for that 50% of losing the action? You said right: you're ready to react when the spell come. So, I cant see why you take into account this failure chance. I mean, if that's your thought, ok, but a this point you should apply that even against readied actions against the casting of swift spells, like Grace.
I think it has been mentioned but Counterspelling is very tricky as is and very limited in scope. You have to have the spell handy and ready to cast it, unless you use Dispel Magic and then you are not certain to even Counterspell it. I would not lose much sleep over Still and Silent versions and just allow it to happen.
It's been discussed to death that technically silent or still spells do not by the rules increase the difficulty to identify a spell as it's being cast. Doing so is completely a house rule, it may be reasonable, but it is still a houserule. As such, a silent, stilled, eschewed materials spells is just as easily identified as a spell without any of that.
This may be where the rules sorta bump into themselves.
There has been developer commentary that it's reasonable to add a bonus to the DC to identify when it is silent and/or still (I use +5 for each, which I believe was the recommendation). You definitely *can* identify the spell. Also, if you have the spell memorized, you're pretty intimately familiar with it at that moment. If you don't, then you're using dispel magic anyways and don't need to identify (or an exact counter like enlarge vs. reduce I suppose).
Quicken has all the components, it's just faster than normal. Also - remember it may be a swift action for the caster, but that doesn't mean the spell is over in an instant. A quickened fireball for instance could still take some time to swell up into a bright glowing little ball, then streak out towards it's intended destination. Thematically the counterspell only needs to come by that point.
Yes, I have no issues with counterspelling a still/silent/quickened/non-material spell. If you are spending your action to counter, have the right spell ready, and can make the Spellcraft check, then you're golden. Metamagic doesn't stop you.
My previous comment was to this being the case even if there is nothing to see or hear from the target caster. Even in these cases, there is "something" present or manifesting that you are identifying, else the rules would account for it with a penalty or disallow. But they don't at this point, so Counterspell away. :)
I agree with RAW stating it to be how the game is played. I just questioned the rules due to time (quickened spell=swift action vs spellcraft check=free action+ready/counterspell=standard action) and power output quickened spell=spellslot+4 vs counterspell=standard spell slot. All in all it is very unbalanced to say the leased, but I guess the Wizard vs the Fighter is also at the end of the day. Though there is a lot of complaints about that as well.
I bring it up as another part of the game that may need some tweaking next time around at least in my mind.
The Vancian spell slot system used for most casters in the Pathfinder gaming system allows this to be the problem. Where as other systems such as a point based system would allow for duplication(counterspelling) to be far more fluid. Just my two cents.
The developers are wrong. Until they issue errata, it is merely their opinion.
You don't need to be able to hear the spell being cast, you only need to be able to see it according to the spellcraft skill. You adjust this based on the perception skill's modifiers such as:
+1 to the DC per 10 feet
+20 to the DC if the target is invisible
Etc.
Interesting. So by RAW it's possible to "see" an invisible caster casting a stilled/silenced/quickened spell. I'd have to go with you sensing a "disturbance in the Force" at this point. Something is coalescing and you are picking up on it as a trained magic wielder.
Interesting. So by RAW it's possible to "see" an invisible caster casting a stilled/silenced/quickened spell. I'd have to go with you sensing a "disturbance in the Force" at this point. Something is coalescing and you are picking up on it as a trained magic wielder.
Or magic has obvious signs associated with it. I believe James Jacobs once stated that his opinion of how magic function was that it often involved lights and colors appearing around the caster. That there were physical manifestations to the spellaside from just the obvious effects, much as you see in the published books which show spells being cast. So, it is reasonable you could see those magical manifestations and identify them. With the caster himself invisible it would justify making it harder since you can't see what components he is using to help with identification, but you can still do it.