What is allowed in terms of sharing info about cards?


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion


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PACG: Rise of the Runelords was released in a french translation earlier this month. From conversations with a few owners of the french translation, a few errors in the translation of some cards have been discovered.

Example #1
Example #2

And in a private conversation, I've been told that Tome of Knowledge in the french translation says "add 1 die to your Knowledge check."

It has been asked a few times if there is an online list of all the text of the cards to compare the french translation to the English. To my knowledge no such thing exists. I know there has been talk from time to time about making a wiki. But in the meantime, is it acceptable for someone (or ones) to create a database or simple spreadsheet of card text? No images or anything. Just card names, traits, checks to defeat/acquire, powers, recharge, that stuff. I wouldn't want to be involved in makin such a thing if it would violate any kind of copyrights.

Thanks.


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Hate to do a thread bump, but the Ameiko error in the French version reminded me of this.

So is sharing a db or spreadsheet of card text (name, traits, powers, etc) ok to do as long as we don't use images from the cards or try to reproduce the cards?


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Posting to show that Hawkman ;) isn't the only one interested.


I'm wondering the same thing.

Are we allowed to make something, like a wiki or some such, with the full card info minus the artwork? If we are, what's the limit on information if any? What's required to get this going?

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

We have talked about this a lot. I would like to see a wiki.


Mike Selinker wrote:
We have talked about this a lot. I would like to see a wiki.

Does that mean, "It would be great if someone made a Wiki!" or "It is my personal opinion that a wiki would be cool, but the team is still discussing it?" Or something else entirely?

...

Holy crap, I beat Hawkman to it!

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

It means it would be great if someone made a wiki, but if you're waiting on us, we're probably never getting around to it.


pacg.wikia.com has been started. I have minimal experience with this, so if anyone wants to help out, that would be great. Send me a private message.

Mike/Vic: If you want to give me some guidance on what is/isn't allowed, that would be great. Obviously scans of the cards are out of the question.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Okay, next question. We have a wiki. What can we put on it?


Couldn't we put it on https://www.wikispaces.com and not have all the adds?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I wish Paizo would at least host a plain MediaWiki, even if they never touch it themselves. I'm not the biggest fan of Wikia


That is fine. I have no attachment to wikia. I've grabbed pacg.wikispaces.com too. Which shall we use?

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If it's between Wikispaces and Wikia, I'd prefer Wikia, since most people are familiar with MediaWiki (the same wiki software as Wikipedia). It's only if we have an option of a MediaWiki without all the extra Wikia stuff that I'd move away from there.

I've also been working on templates for the card info so we can present the basic information in a consistent and elegant manner and leave the rest of the page for discussion, errata and whatever. I'll let you know how it worked out

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

That looks workable. Here's what it looks like for all the boon and bane types (Hawkmoon, if you give me admin access, I can look into making these work for everyone; it needs CSS and only admins can change that)

Next, I'll try to hack something together for the locations, adventures and adventure paths

Pathfinder Adventure Card Game Designer

So… Vic is the person who can talk about permissions, because that's not my thing. But I will say this. I have heard all the calls for more story and more rationale, and it's just not workable in the game I designed. But I would like folks to know why, say, there's a Goblin in the Closet. So if I had a wiki, I would want it organized by individual card, and have sections on gameplay and story derived from the RPG; if it had strategy tips, that'd be even better.

Like I said, that's just me. I have no real stake in this, just hopes that PACG players get what they need out of the project.


3Doubloons wrote:

That looks workable. Here's what it looks like for all the boon and bane types (Hawkmoon, if you give me admin access, I can look into making these work for everyone; it needs CSS and only admins can change that)

Next, I'll try to hack something together for the locations, adventures and adventure paths

Granted.

Before you go too far with posting the details of too many cards, lets wait for Vic to weigh in. I think what you've got up now is good so he can get an idea for it.

But you seem to know a whole lot more about wikis then I do so, if you want to mess with the style and setup or anything, have at it.

I really like the things Mike is mentioning, explaining some of the "unique" banes and allies and stuff, as well as strategy would be great. And maybe filling in some more story.


Also, keep in mind that the same card might appear in the two different adventure paths.

Mike: If a card does appear in more than 1 AP, will everything about it be the same? Same traits, checks, and powers? Except for characters obviously. I'm just talking boons & banes.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Here are the three cards I imported so I could test my templates: Sihedron Medallion, Barl Breakbones, Guard

That's more or less the extent of what I intended to include for the boons and banes. For the locations and scenarios/adventures, I was hoping to include the game text (Stuff like the deck lists and the During this Scenario, for example) as well as the fluff (The text on the back). I hope that'll be okay with Vic.

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Also, keep in mind that the same card might appear in the two different adventure paths.

If the exact same card appears in two adventure paths, it could have multiple sources like the Sihedron Medallion does. If they are different, they could either get different pages if the differences are significant, or different sections of the same page if it's minor changes.


3Doubloons wrote:

Here are the three cards I imported so I could test my templates: Sihedron Medallion, Barl Breakbones, Guard

That's more or less the extent of what I intended to include for the boons and banes. For the locations and scenarios/adventures, I was hoping to include the game text (Stuff like the deck lists and the During this Scenario, for example) as well as the fluff (The text on the back). I hope that'll be okay with Vic.

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
Also, keep in mind that the same card might appear in the two different adventure paths.
If the exact same card appears in two adventure paths, it could have multiple sources like the Sihedron Medallion does. If they are different, they could either get different pages if the differences are significant, or different sections of the same page if it's minor changes.

Took a peek, looks alright, I would suggest though it abbreviate the deck they are from for easier reading: Probably by the adv path (ROTR/SAS) so that can quickly relate which set to find stuff.... so the Sihedron Medallion would show as sets ROTR-1, ROTR-2, ROTR-3, etc.

It currently looks very crowded on your template with all the adventure names.


I do have a spreadsheet with all the card text. If it would help, let me know in a PM and I can email it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I've made an example location card to show what it would look like and what information it would include (do note that I was too lazy to copy the flavour text, but it would normally be there)

Memetix wrote:
I do have a spreadsheet with all the card text. If it would help, let me know in a PM and I can email it.

Assuming Vic is okay with how this would turn out, I would be very interested. I'll contact you when we get the OK

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
I really like the things Mike is mentioning, explaining some of the "unique" banes and allies and stuff, as well as strategy would be great. And maybe filling in some more story.

(I don't know how I missed that part of your post)

The way I've set things up, each card would get its own page which would include strategy, background and everything people deem appropriate. The cards are also grouped in categories based on their traits and checks (This is mostly automatic; categories for traits and checks to acquire/defeat are added by the template. We only need to manually add checks that are noted in the powers or recharge box of a card)


Looks great. As I said, you seem to know what you are doing.

For the characters: Do you want to have a section heading for each AP and then some kind of template that would give their details (Gender, Race, Class, Roles, and whether Base Set or Caracter Add-on)?


It's looking good. As a suggestion, there should be a page to help quickly identify which cards (per set) had been changed/corrected. That way it can help during actual play as a quick reference.

I am sure I'm not the only one that doesn't like to mark up their cards, even if it is to correct the card.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There could easily be a category for cards that received Errata. The pages in that category would then have an Errata section explaining what has been changed (The infobox would have the corrected wording, not the printed wording in this case)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

I have issues. Putting the entire card text in the Community Use Policy presents some problems, but I also don't want to be in the business of granting individual permissions to reprint the card text. Solving this is not a thing I currently have the luxury to think about at length.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Aye. I figured it would be that easy. I'm not sure what issues would arise from putting the card text in the CUP; isn't that more or less what the prd does for the RPG? We could omit the fluff, if it makes a difference.

Either way, could solving this issue be a long term possibility?


What if Paizo hosted the wiki? Or if I gave the bureaucrat role over to you Vic? Would that make it not community use, since it would be Paizo's wiki?

For now, 3Doubloons, how about we focus on some more general stuff, like the adventure paths, adventures, scenarios and characters.


Mike Selinker wrote:
It means it would be great if someone made a wiki, but if you're waiting on us, we're probably never getting around to it.

There are currently plans to add a PACG section to the existing PathfinderWiki, but there are a few other tasks before it in the queue. When we get the requisite templates, home pages, and category structure in place, we'll need help incorporating information onto the site. Stay tuned!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Hawkmoon269 wrote:

What if Paizo hosted the wiki? Or if I gave the bureaucrat role over to you Vic? Would that make it not community use, since it would be Paizo's wiki?

For now, 3Doubloons, how about we focus on some more general stuff, like the adventure paths, adventures, scenarios and characters.

If it were on Paizo, they'd have to deal with moderating it, using already scant moderating resources


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So we basically have four options, right?

We can have all card text and card scans on the wiki:

  • This is what most TCGs do.
  • The problem is that TCGs have a different business model than the PACG. A TCG makes most of its money off of the group of players who get involved in public play and tournaments. PACG doesn't sell boosters or require only using real cards at tournaments because there are no tournaments. (This may be alleviated when the organized play starts)
  • Card scans let you print out cards and proxy them in order to play.
  • The tradeoff: How many paying (or potential) customers of the PACG would switch to printing out cards instead of buying the official product?
  • Benefit: Card text is a great reference, and I could proxy Poog and Fire Sneeze into my deck easily.
We can have all card text on the wiki:
  • Printing/Proxying isn't an issue if we don't include scans on the wiki
  • Card text is still there, so we still have a way to reference cards when we're not physically holding the game.
We can have no card text on the wiki:
  • It doesn't really feel useful at this point, and the lack of card text would feel like the elephant in the room on the wiki.
Something else:
  • I haven't figured this one out yet, since I don't see another good compromise... but it's a possibility!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

There's the option of having some card text on the wiki (e.g. just the name and traits). That would have a minimum of utility (we could automatically index by trait) while potentially avoiding the problems Vic is concerned about. The downside is that it doesn't allow for referencing the cards without fishing them out of the box.

Mind you, I am very much of the opinion that the best case scenario would be to include the full card text (or at least, the gameplay-relevant card text; the fluff is less important). That would be most useful for referencing the cards and it lets us do a lot of categorising automatically (Look at the Barl I linked earlier. None of these categories were added manually)


Vic Wertz wrote:
I have issues. Putting the entire card text in the Community Use Policy presents some problems, but I also don't want to be in the business of granting individual permissions to reprint the card text. Solving this is not a thing I currently have the luxury to think about at length.

For no reason other than idle curiosity about how things work. Would you mind sharing the issues/problems?

Sovereign Court

Steve Geddes wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
I have issues. Putting the entire card text in the Community Use Policy presents some problems, but I also don't want to be in the business of granting individual permissions to reprint the card text. Solving this is not a thing I currently have the luxury to think about at length.
For no reason other than idle curiosity about how things work. Would you mind sharing the issues/problems?

Most likely, the fact that anyone anywhere would have access to all the information needed to play the game, and could just print off their own cards (or pay to have them professionally made if they wanted), and not have to pay Paizo a dime.


That doesnt seem to be an issue for them with the RPG rules. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but this was part of why I was curious).


Steve Geddes wrote:
That doesnt seem to be an issue for them with the RPG rules. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but this was part of why I was curious).

They're required by the powers that be to have the basic rules for the Pathfinder RPG game available publicly, thus the system reference document wiki.

The card game isn't under such a restriction, so they're able to choose if they want the information available fully or not.


Firedale2002 wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
That doesnt seem to be an issue for them with the RPG rules. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but this was part of why I was curious).

They're required by the powers that be to have the basic rules for the Pathfinder RPG game available publicly, thus the system reference document wiki.

The card game isn't under such a restriction, so they're able to choose if they want the information available fully or not.

Are they? I didnt know that. I always figured they had the option of putting the rules on the internet or not as they saw fit.

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