Douglas Muir 406 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Cantrip, so endlessly spammable by various classes. It's basically a magic walkie-talkie with a range of 100' + 10' level. It's blocked by the usual stuff (lead, stone) but can go around corners and through small openings. The tactical advantages are pretty huge -- coordinating attacks, most obviously, but also getting information back from your stealthy scout who's100' further up the corridor, feeding information from around a corner to a party member who's running a Bluff... you name it. My players have come to say "Message is up" or "I have Message on" pretty much as a matter of reflex before every encounter, which is always a good indicator that something is overpowered.
I'm finding this annoying in two ways. One, it's just way overpowered for a cantrip. Cantrips shouldn't affect gameplay in this way, and they shouldn't regularly give players significant tactical advantages. If it were a first level spell, I could see it. Or if the range were short (25' + 5'/2 levels), perhaps. But in its current form, it's much too good for a zero level spell.
Two, it's flattening the game tactically by making the battlespace completely transparent -- what one PC knows, they all know. There's no more "Bob sees the monster, but the rest of you don't", or "Alice has fallen down the pit and is facing the zombies at the bottom; Alice, do you try to fight the zombies alone, try to climb out of the pit, or yell for help and risk alerting the lizardman guards?" Those are classic situations that have been rendered obsolete by the introduction of Message. The result is a slight but noticeable increase in the level of abstraction in combat and play.
Am I the only one who feels this way? What do the rest of you think? Are your PCs all throwing Message as well?
Doug M.
Ascalaphus |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think Detect Magic, Prestidigitation (as a catch-all cantrip), Create Water and Light are much more powerful cantrips.
I think you're underestimating the intended power level of cantrips.
The big limit on cantrips is spells known/how many you can prepare. In my experience Message is actually only rarely prepared.
Cardinal Chunder |
Its not a two way walkie talkie...
I bet people forget that if A casts it B can only reply if A whispers first...In your example Alice couldn't use message to pass back info unless she cast the spell. Nor could the advance scout unless they too cast Message.
It doesn't automatically mean what A knows C & D do too. They have to make a DC25 Perception check or A needs to relay it themselves. Out of combat this isn't a real issue but in perhaps the DC climbs a bit thanks to the noise. That however would fall into the category of (reasonable) house rule.
Its a cantrip of convenience that speeds the game along.
Snorter |
It's an auto-choice for at least one PC in any group I'm in.
However, don't forget to apply the restrictions of the spell as written.
Messages only go back to the caster, who has to act as the 'hub' for all the recipients.
You may get a message to him, but until his initiative comes up, he can't pass that info to anyone else.
"Hey Joe, don't walk in there....Oh, never mind. MEDIC!"
And if everyone's talking to him at once, it's fair to say they can't hear his advice. Just look how much miscommunication takes place between players who are freely discussing the situation, with a birds-eye view, from the comfort and safety of the gaming room, and apply the same delays to the PCs' conversations in-character.
If it takes a whole 5 minutes to get Joe's player to shut his pie-hole, and stop whinging about his trivial situation, and get him to recognise that someone else needs help more urgently, then the same should apply in game.
Talking may be a free action, but a stopwatch should be part of every GM's arsenal.
Mark Hoover |
My wizards never use message. Instead the PCs stay in tight formation, rarely scout, and take their chances. The only time I saw message used in one of my games recently was in the crafting of a magic device for a settlement: message fonts where you could talk through water between locations.
Cantrips are not insignificant; they're just the lowest level of spells. Dancing lights gives you four torches; with the right build you can do more DPR with an acid splash at 1st level than you can with a crossbow as a wizard; detect magic and 3 rounds of time can tell you all you need to know about ANY magic item (traps, weapons, runic inscriptions, etc).
As Ascy said above, the real bummer is the amount of them you can cast in a day. If I could I'd take 6 cantrips/day and never be unhappy.
MC Templar |
7 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's no more "Bob sees the monster, but the rest of you don't", or "Alice has fallen down the pit and is facing the zombies at the bottom; Alice, do you try to fight the zombies alone, try to climb out of the pit, or yell for help and risk alerting the lizardman guards?" Those are classic situations that have been rendered obsolete by the introduction of Message. The result is a slight but noticeable increase in the level of abstraction in combat and play.
strange, I view the end of encounters that play as 'the rest of you sit and do nothing while alice has an hour-long solo adventure' to be a good thing.
SlimGauge |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What Snorter said. Enforce the six second limit on free action speech in a given round. My group has taken to using some military/radio/movie quote jargon with message. Examples
"Tally Ho!" (meaning enemy sighted, I am engaging)
"I see dead people" (I have detected/encountered undead)
"Game Over, Man" (overwhelming enemy encountered, I am withdrawing)
"Danger Close, Fire for Effect" (fireball my position, hope I make my save, I trust my improved evasion)
etc.
Douglas Muir 406 |
strange, I view the end of encounters that play as 'the rest of you sit and do nothing while alice has an hour-long solo adventure' to be a good thing.
Yeah, so now it's "the whole table puts their heads together and spends ten minutes discussing what Alice should do". Not sure that's an improvement.
Doug M.
Gregory Connolly |
I wish, but we have a chaotic player problem in my main home group. I can't get the monk to delay, ready or simply not charge when I want to cast haste. I would love to be in a tight knit group that works together. Our GMs never have to increase the power level of monsters because we simply don't coordinate with each other. We have players racing each other for kills and leaving the squishy types to fend for themselves.
Wrong John Silver |
MC Templar wrote:strange, I view the end of encounters that play as 'the rest of you sit and do nothing while alice has an hour-long solo adventure' to be a good thing.
Yeah, so now it's "the whole table puts their heads together and spends ten minutes discussing what Alice should do". Not sure that's an improvement.
Doug M.
It most definitely is an improvement, since everyone is involved.
But ten minutes of discussion? Alice is lunch.
Claxon |
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:MC Templar wrote:strange, I view the end of encounters that play as 'the rest of you sit and do nothing while alice has an hour-long solo adventure' to be a good thing.
Yeah, so now it's "the whole table puts their heads together and spends ten minutes discussing what Alice should do". Not sure that's an improvement.
Doug M.
It most definitely is an improvement, since everyone is involved.
But ten minutes of discussion? Alice is lunch.
Yeah, thats a different problem. If there is that much talk...don't let there be. The monsters are there, 100ft away. One of them notices Alice, she has 30 seconds to make a decision (IRL) before the monster charges and attacks.
Zhangar |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's also a DC 25 perception check to notice the message spell occurring. With the +1 per 10 ft of distance to the DC of course.
Checking in with the scout with a message has a chance to inadvertently reveal the scout's location, so keep that in mind.
Fortunately, at higher level play - where the DC 27 or 28 to notice the message going off would be trivial - the party can have the vastly superior telepathic bond active.
StDrake |
My two cents? Message is one of the most useless spells out there. It's one-directional, it has ridiculously small range and you still can be heard because you need to actually whisper the message first.
You sir have been blessed, yes BLESSED with players who actually found a way to make use of that piece of garbage. Appreciation of that would fit you better than whining.
Or start complaining that:
-you can't tease the palyers by putting an item just a little bit beyond their range so that they have to find a fishing stick - they got mage hand
-you can't scare your players with a horde of undead - they got fireballs (okay so that's not a cantrip)
-you can't make use of all that darkness around - they got light
-you can't scare them away from a desert - they got create water, heck they can flood a room or stop any normal fire with create water! overpowereed!
-prestidigitation..you can't..anything
and did I mention you can forget trapping doors because of that open/close thing?
Or maybe you didn't read all the details and just let them go overboard?
Mark Hoover |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
What Snorter said. Enforce the six second limit on free action speech in a given round. My group has taken to using some military/radio/movie quote jargon with message. Examples
"Tally Ho!" (meaning enemy sighted, I am engaging)
"I see dead people" (I have detected/encountered undead)
"Game Over, Man" (overwhelming enemy encountered, I am withdrawing)
"Danger Close, Fire for Effect" (fireball my position, hope I make my save, I trust my improved evasion)
etc.
"I've got cookies" - it's advisable to converge on my position
"I've got chlamydia" - stay well away from my position
These were quotes actually used by a battlefield control wizardess played in one of my campaigns back in the day.
Mark Hoover |
One thing people constantly forget about Prestidigitation:
Prestidigitations are minor tricks that novice spellcasters use for practice. Once cast, a prestidigitation spell enables you to perform simple magical effects for 1 hour. The effects are minor and have severe limitations. A prestidigitation can slowly lift 1 pound of material. It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round. It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material. It cannot deal damage or affect the concentration of spellcasters. Prestidigitation can create small objects, but they look crude and artificial. The materials created by a prestidigitation spell are extremely fragile, and they cannot be used as tools, weapons, or spell components. Finally, prestidigitation lacks the power to duplicate any other spell effects. Any actual change to an object (beyond just moving, cleaning, or soiling it) persists only 1 hour.
So essentially this spell cannot deal damage, affect concentration, or duplicate any other spell's effect in any way. This, IMO is the weakest spell in the game.
It can create a puff of smoke, but not enough to grant any level of Concealment; that would duplicate other spells. It can make an object warm but not enough to cause discomfort since it can't deal damage. It can soil an object with the appearance of grease but not actually make that thing greasy since that's another spell.
Now, I thought maybe it could create a vase to hold 1 lb of material, but the vase can't be used as a tool. Well, maybe that vase could just appear and fall on someone's head to startle them: can't affect concentration or deal damage. So it's not even a "poof; a bucket of water on your head!" spell.
Imbicatus |
4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Prestidigitation is an instant shower, laundry service, and odor/taste enhancement. It's also useful for minor entertainment on it's own, or AV effect to enhance a Bardic Performance.
It's absolutely VITAL if you happened to have taken a vow of cleanliness. Otherwise, it's a quality of life spell that is great for RP value but it has zero combat value.
Mark Hoover |
Prestidigitation is an instant shower, laundry service, and odor/taste enhancement. It's also useful for minor entertainment on it's own, or AV effect to enhance a Bardic Performance.
It's absolutely VITAL if you happened to have taken a vow of cleanliness. Otherwise, it's a quality of life spell that is great for RP value but it has zero combat value.
Are there other spells that enhance bardic performance? If so, Prestidigitation can't help you there.
Mark Hoover |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not saying no prestidigitation. Despite what I'm saying in this post, in my homegames I've largely ignored what the spell ACTUALLY says in favor of player creativity. Drake, if you conjured a sheet over someone I'd probably give it to you. I've also had a player make puffs of smoke over one enemy's face in order to help him escape and I've allowed it to color a window black and thus cut off sight through it.
I was just playing devil's advocate above. Personally I love cantrips and actively encourage them in my game. The fact that my players don't use them that often isn't my fault.
The one player I've seen use them consistently and creatively was my own daughter. She'd use Mage Hand to carry a 5lb bag of rocks around with her, once using the rocks in an open clearing to check for traps. She used ray of frost to weaken a metal grate so the fighter could rip it open - sure by RAW it wouldn't do enough damage to help but after explaining it with an experiment they'd JUST done in her AP science class I threw in an Aid Another bonus that ended up making the difference. She used dancing lights as distractions; that plus ghost sound to entertain and confound a crowd; spark to start a fire in a jail cell mattress.
Cantrips are wonderful, spammable, and infinitely useful at low to mid level. I call on the folks reading this thread. If you're playing a spellcaster and you're between first and eighth level, go back over your cantrips and rediscover all the magic you have. Play with these tricks and see what you can do with them.
blackbloodtroll |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We did have a Bard use Summon Instrument to summon a Double Bass, and fight with it, as an improvised weapon.
Wrong John Silver |
We did have a Bard use Summon Instrument to summon a Double Bass, and fight with it, as an improvised weapon.
I need to come up with a fighting style using razor cymbals or something.
blackbloodtroll |
blackbloodtroll wrote:We did have a Bard use Summon Instrument to summon a Double Bass, and fight with it, as an improvised weapon.I need to come up with a fighting style using razor cymbals or something.
Cowbell.
Wrong John Silver |
Wrong John Silver wrote:Cowbell.blackbloodtroll wrote:We did have a Bard use Summon Instrument to summon a Double Bass, and fight with it, as an improvised weapon.I need to come up with a fighting style using razor cymbals or something.
But I'd use that as a focus for cure spells.
Sir_Wulf RPG Superstar 2008 Top 16 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Imbicatus wrote:Are there other spells that enhance bardic performance? If so, Prestidigitation can't help you there.Prestidigitation is an instant shower, laundry service, and odor/taste enhancement. It's also useful for minor entertainment on it's own, or AV effect to enhance a Bardic Performance.
It's absolutely VITAL if you happened to have taken a vow of cleanliness. Otherwise, it's a quality of life spell that is great for RP value but it has zero combat value.
You're interpreting prestidigitation too strictly. It can't reproduce what other spells do, but that doesn't mean it can't reproduce aspects of their function or mimic their effects in a limited way. Obstructing someone's vision isn't blindness.
DMRaven |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In Doug's defense, I've never seen it quite used the extent it has been in his game. Though, I do like it as a scouting and general warning tool. But like most cantrips (and numerous magic in PF/3.5 games) its just another tool that reduces/eliminates "realistic" issues in a game. You have to fight in darkness? Light. You don't know where the other party members are? Message. You're in a desert? Create water.
Terrain and going from place to place becomes a non-issue after level 9 when Overland flight and, later, teleport are easily available. Skills are pointless when disguise self, a level one spell, gives the equivalent of 10 skill ranks in the disguise skill and invisibility gives the equivalent of 20 or 40 ranks in the stealth skill as a simple level 2 spell.
Gritty fantasy isn't doable when there is any kind of spellcasting going on with players who know how to use the tools at their disposal.
Edit: As an aside, its one of the reasons I don't run Pathfinder/3.5 anymore. Monster setup in 4e (if you're at a table and can handle the ridiculously long combats) and 13th age (great for PbP) are better. In 13th age, Message is a 3rd level spell available only to Wizards (out of 10 levels) and has a limited distance that grows as the wizard progresses. The Devs even have a great comment about it in the sidebar.
"Reliable communication across great distances kills many plots. Sporadic and half-garbled communication across such distances enlivens plots."
LazarX |
Mark Hoover wrote:You're interpreting prestidigitation too strictly. It can't reproduce what other spells do, but that doesn't mean it can't reproduce aspects of their function or mimic their effects in a limited way. Obstructing someone's vision isn't blindness.Imbicatus wrote:Are there other spells that enhance bardic performance? If so, Prestidigitation can't help you there.Prestidigitation is an instant shower, laundry service, and odor/taste enhancement. It's also useful for minor entertainment on it's own, or AV effect to enhance a Bardic Performance.
It's absolutely VITAL if you happened to have taken a vow of cleanliness. Otherwise, it's a quality of life spell that is great for RP value but it has zero combat value.
When it comes to cantrips and magic in general, but especially cantrips, it's far better to err on the side of strictness. They are after all intended to be weaker than first level spells. And a cantrip should not, in most cases have more battle impact than them.
Cardboard Hero |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What your party has been using is actually called Telepathic bond. A 4th lvl spell that my party uses abundantly, to use message the way you are would require the caster to cast it every round to keep communication open between the caster and you (IE you and other subjects of the spell can communicate with the caster, NOT with eaxh other). Furthermore, the caster needs to have direct line of sight to cast it on you, you have to designate who is included by Pointing at them). Tell your pcs that the telepathic bond free ride is over and that they need to use the 4th lvl spell to keep doing what they've been doing
tsuruki |
In my game last year prestidigititation was a crucial element in successfully befriending a family of otyughs.
It was used to clean the muck of the chief otyugh's back. The awesome show of "grupli" (otyugh word for magic) helped befriend the tribe for the fight against scriply scraply's (otyugh word for ratfolk).
S'mon |
Cantrip, so endlessly spammable by various classes. It's basically a magic walkie-talkie with a range of 100' + 10' level. It's blocked by the usual stuff (lead, stone) but can go around corners and through small openings. The tactical advantages are pretty huge -- coordinating attacks, most obviously, but also getting information back from your stealthy scout who's100' further up the corridor, feeding information from around a corner to a party member who's running a Bluff... you name it. My players have come to say "Message is up" or "I have Message on" pretty much as a matter of reflex before every encounter, which is always a good indicator that something is overpowered.
I'm finding this annoying in two ways. One, it's just way overpowered for a cantrip. Cantrips shouldn't affect gameplay in this way, and they shouldn't regularly give players significant tactical advantages. If it were a first level spell, I could see it. Or if the range were short (25' + 5'/2 levels), perhaps. But in its current form, it's much too good for a zero level spell.
Two, it's flattening the game tactically by making the battlespace completely transparent -- what one PC knows, they all know. There's no more "Bob sees the monster, but the rest of you don't", or "Alice has fallen down the pit and is facing the zombies at the bottom; Alice, do you try to fight the zombies alone, try to climb out of the pit, or yell for help and risk alerting the lizardman guards?" Those are classic situations that have been rendered obsolete by the introduction of Message. The result is a slight but noticeable increase in the level of abstraction in combat and play.
Am I the only one who feels this way? What do the rest of you think? Are your PCs all throwing Message as well?
Doug M.
I agree; it should either be a 1st level spell, or cantrips should not be spammable.
Cardinal Chunder |
On the note of message, doesn't it require you to point at people to relay messages? That means it requires line of sight right?
Nope.
"The message does not have to travel in a straight line. It can circumvent a barrier if there is an open path between you and the subject, and the path's entire length lies within the spell's range."
Again it seems that "OMG, its so OP!" comes down to people not using the *whatever* RAW...
sunshadow21 |
Sir_Wulf wrote:When it comes to cantrips and magic in general, but especially cantrips, it's far better to err on the side of strictness. They are after all intended to be weaker than first level spells. And a cantrip should not, in most cases have more battle impact than them.Mark Hoover wrote:You're interpreting prestidigitation too strictly. It can't reproduce what other spells do, but that doesn't mean it can't reproduce aspects of their function or mimic their effects in a limited way. Obstructing someone's vision isn't blindness.Imbicatus wrote:Are there other spells that enhance bardic performance? If so, Prestidigitation can't help you there.Prestidigitation is an instant shower, laundry service, and odor/taste enhancement. It's also useful for minor entertainment on it's own, or AV effect to enhance a Bardic Performance.
It's absolutely VITAL if you happened to have taken a vow of cleanliness. Otherwise, it's a quality of life spell that is great for RP value but it has zero combat value.
While that is true, cantrips are the magic that most of the world is most familiar with, so are the ones that would see the most experimentation and use overall, with only 1st level spells coming close to being as common. They make sense as spammable ways to deal with concerns such as light or finding water because that is what most of the world cares about finding solutions to; they are the fantasy world's version of the smartphone, mobile, helpful in the right situation, but not usually a solution to more than a passing, common everyday problem (in this case common and everyday being by the commoner's point of view, not necessarily an adventurer's).
Especially with open ended cantrips like Prestidigitation, there will be some mimicry going on, at least as far as end result is concerned. A sheet over someone's eyes or putting mud in someone's eyes has a similar effect briefly as the blindness spell, but the means of accomplishing it are different enough, and the effect generally doesn't last as long, so it's not true mimicry. I usually see Prestidigitation as being able to create a shadow effect of other spells, but it's range, duration, and other factors limit it's ability to truly copy anything. In combat, it's generally good to potentially eat up one, maybe two if you are really lucky, enemy actions, and that's about it before the enemy can forget it was ever cast, so it's still weaker than higher level spells unless you get really lucky.
Message is good, but even if you ignore the whole one person has to relay all messages to everyone else, there's still a matter of time constraints. Six seconds is not a lot of time to convey a lot of information, especially if you are doing anything else in that period of time. The whole caster has to initiate the message and others can only reply generally isn't worth it; it's not the constraining factor on the spell; time and ability to communicate both quickly and well is. Out of combat, time really isn't a major issue as long as you aren't trying to recite Beowulf one line at a time. In combat, it's still not really worth dealing with. If the party worked up an effective system of code words and phrases, and the caster can get it up before the party is torn apart, there's no reason why it shouldn't be allowed to be used to guide party strategy; it will not defeat the enemy by itself after all, and for a party well organized enough to really get full benefit from it, it's probably icing on the cake anyway. If they haven't worked up such a system, chances are it's not going to help them much anyway, and might actually provide a hindrance to the few that can actually act well on their own, so it's still not more powerful than higher level spells.
DMRaven |
What your party has been using is actually called Telepathic bond. A 4th lvl spell that my party uses abundantly, to use message the way you are would require the caster to cast it every round to keep communication open between the caster and you (IE you and other subjects of the spell can communicate with the caster, NOT with eaxh other). Furthermore, the caster needs to have direct line of sight to cast it on you, you have to designate who is included by Pointing at them). Tell your pcs that the telepathic bond free ride is over and that they need to use the 4th lvl spell to keep doing what they've been doing
The duration of the cantrip is 10 minutes per level, you definitely do NOT need to keep casting it every round. Additionally, you do not need direct line of sight. It says that it will transverse barriers as long as there is an open path between you and the subject as long as the entire path lies in the spell's range, which is at minimum 110 feet.
If the rogue is in the darkness, out of sight, somewhere ahead of you, you can point in that direction and as long as they are not in an enclosed room (i.e. doors are closed) and less than 100' away, the cantrip works perfectly fine.
Tiny Coffee Golem |
Its not a two way walkie talkie...
I bet people forget that if A casts it B can only reply if A whispers first...In your example Alice couldn't use message to pass back info unless she cast the spell. Nor could the advance scout unless they too cast Message.
It doesn't automatically mean what A knows C & D do too. They have to make a DC25 Perception check or A needs to relay it themselves. Out of combat this isn't a real issue but in perhaps the DC climbs a bit thanks to the noise. That however would fall into the category of (reasonable) house rule.
Its a cantrip of convenience that speeds the game along.
You're incorrect. The spell allows you to send replies. Basically it's a walkie talkie without the plastic case.
Message
School transmutation [language-dependent]; Level bard 0, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner 0, witch 0
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a piece of copper wire)
EFFECT
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets one creature/level
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
You can whisper messages and receive whispered replies. Those nearby can hear these messages with a DC 25 Perception check. You point your finger at each creature you want to receive the message. When you whisper, the whispered message is audible to all targeted creatures within range. Magical silence, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal (or a thin sheet of lead), or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks the spell. The message does not have to travel in a straight line. It can circumvent a barrier if there is an open path between you and the subject, and the path's entire length lies within the spell's range. The creatures that receive the message can whisper a reply that you hear. The spell transmits sound, not meaning; it doesn't transcend language barriers. To speak a message, you must mouth the words and whisper.