When I searched, there was all of one instance of this question, buried in a thread, and it wasn't answered. (not to mention the asker incorrectly addressing it in his next post)
As I understand it, certain creatures have the docile quality to "force" their secondary natural weapons to stay secondary since it is the only type of weapon they have.
(Otherwise treated as primary according to UMR)
Quote: If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Since Docile is not listed as an acquired SQ in any of the Beast Shape spells, does this mean a caster shifting into a horse or emu, etc, conveniently gets to ignore the SQ and treat those attacks as primary?
Pretty confident this is RAW, but it seems like an oversight for RAI. But realistically, the rule also shouldn't automatically be "the Beast Shape limitations only apply to positive SQ" either.
It's the RAW, and certainly the RAI as well.
Why? RAW-wise The Docile quality is not one on the Beast Shape list, ypu don't gain it.
RAi-wise, the Docile quality represents that an animal naturally is not a fighter. The animal is docile.
Your Druid, turning into said animal, has no such qualms. Wild Shape imparts no mental changes.
Your Druid is "Combat Trained", in essence.
Rynjin wrote:
Your Druid is "Combat Trained", in essence.
But are they stall trained....
Docile quality or not, aren't hooves secondary natural weapons anyways?
Nefreet wrote: Docile quality or not, aren't hooves secondary natural weapons anyways? Hmmm nice catch.
Hoof, Tentacle, Wing - 1 1d2 1d3 1d4 1d6 1d8 2d6 2d8 B Secondary
So without the docile special quality, you seem to be stuck with hooves as secondary weapons.
If a horse was listed as having only one hoof attack, it would become primary.
Maybe we've been misunderstanding goblins and their horsechoppers all along?
Nefreet wrote: If a horse was listed as having only one hoof attack, it would become primary.
I don't think so. Pathfinder uncoupled how many attacks there are to whether or not they're primary or secondary.
Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
While saying that docile means that if you ARE combat trained the hooves aren't secondary weapons anymore technically is a specific logical fallacy I'm way too tired to look up, I'm pretty sure that the intent was for that to be removed for combat horsies.
Nefreet wrote: Docile quality or not, aren't hooves secondary natural weapons anyways? This is the mistake made in the other thread I mentioned. I even quoted the relevant part in my OP.
UMR wrote: If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. If a horse has only hooves, they are treated as primary.
Docile is required to knock this back down.
Re: Combat Trained, the authors get around Docile being lost by adding a Bite attack to the Heavy Horse, rendering the "one type" clause inapplicable. (NOTE: "Combat Trained" doesn't actually change the hooves to primary, in theory it just removes Docile, allowing them to be treated as primary if all conditions are met.)
I found another one in this line of thought that makes less sense to lose than docile.
Archaeopteryx
Weak Flier (Ex) wrote: An archaeopteryx can't hover or fly up at an angle greater than 45 degrees while flying. It's one thing to argue that a caster is reasonably more combat trained (ie not skittish), but it's quite another to argue that you shift into a better version of the creature. (Although I will concede that a PC is unlikely to have a minimum Str score)
I'm chasing my tail again...
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