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I don't mind researching the history of a specific item. Not every magic item. I want my character to adventure. Not play Secrets & Sages. I don't understand the sheer fear of occasional just giving a item to a player. No questions asked. Do players who restrict items to players also do the same as a player. If not your being a hypocrite.
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When I say "I want to earn it" I mean I need to make sure my character scours through libraries, sifts through rumors, questions the artisans, and traces the legends of the Talisman of the San Ke Lei Wang until he pieces all the clues together follows the trail and after many trials obtains it. That item I will value far more highly than if the GM just let me find it the hoard of the Goblin Warrens we just finished cleaning out, or the one I got from dashing down to the corner Mage~mart and plunking down a sack of gold/gems.
I recommend taking a look at Earthdawn. It has just such a system for magic items.
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I actually wonder what the real meaning of 'earning' an item is here. It keeps being brought up, but it's never defined. It's not like the Magic Shop adventure party is playing in a punch clock world where they slay goblins from 9-5, and then eventually cash in for a Holy Avenger.
So much of this seems more like "As GM I determine what the party gets, so they have to make sure I'm happy."
At the end of the day, making sure there's a +1 Furyborn Greatsword in the treasure of the dragon is important if your player wants it. Not sure what more they have to do to 'earn' it unless you're just admitting you want absolute control of all magical items in your game.
That's cool if that's how you want to run things, and everything like that is a gift from the GM, but having an item centered around one item isn't a bad thing (Agile sword/AOMF), and it doesn't make it a bad build. Make them 'earn' it if you must, but still give it to them if it helps them have more fun.
Speaking as a player not a GM now...
If my Monk would be better with the Talisman of Resistance (grants a bonus to all saves... I just made it up, sue me) and I come to realize this. I do not want it just "drop" in a hoard cause I killed a monster, there is no sense of accomplishment to getting the item. It was just handed to me on a platter.
When I say "I want to earn it" I mean I need to make sure my character scours through libraries, sifts through rumors, questions the artisans, and traces the legends of the Talisman of the San Ke Lei Wang until he pieces all the clues together follows the trail and after many trials obtains it. That item I will value far more highly than if the GM just let me find it the hoard of the Goblin Warrens we just finished cleaning out, or the one I got from dashing down to the corner Mage~mart and plunking down a sack of gold/gems.I want A Tale of Glory that justifies the item.
Not a "this old thing? Five ninety eight at Franks Magic Emporium, got it on clearance."
IMO you "earned" it when you killed the original owner and took it off their corpse/out of their hoard, or killed the big bad monster, took his hoard, and then bought the item with your heroically acquired gains.
I don't see the point in going "Yeah killing that dragon? Pretty much worthless to you. None of the treasure here is really that great for you, and I won't let you BUY magic items, so I guess sit on this pile of gold and buy a castle or summat iunno". It kind of de-incentivizes your players to go after said big bad dragons in the future, because there's no real point in doing so...the real quests are the ones you have to go on for Every. Single. Item. You want.
I'm sure you can get along just fine without that +3 to your AC.Sure right up until the enemy keeps hitting you over and over again. It's not required it does help imo. As when I'm a player I want my AC to be as high as possible. You can get by if your a melee class. A rogue going in for a sneak attack without magic is just so easy to hit. If he survives he either is very lucky or the DM goes easy on him.
At low to mid levels one can get by without magic items. At higher levels it's sucidal not to have magic items. I'm sure that fire Giant that a group is going to fight sure appreciates a group with magical items. In any case it's a difference in playing style. I see the merits of both styles. I just prefer my magic items.
we are not arguing for no magic items...
Reduced, limited, or difficult to obtain does not equal none.Think on items in vid-games which ones did you like best? the ones anyone could just get for a few ducats? Or the ones you had to jump through hoops to obtain?
For me it was always the ones I had to work to get. Not the ones I just go grind for a day or two to get the cash for it.
You want that item that bad? Great! Quest for it. You will probably appreciate it far more than if it just pops up one day.
I don't recall saying that I want to play a game in which naked commoners run around punching dragons to death because HEROICS! But the difference being a matter of degrees brings up some interesting points.
The difference between a low magic party and a bunch of naked commoners punching a dragon to death is just a matter of degrees.
The difference between a low magic party and AM BARBARIAN RAGELANCEPOUNCE DRAGON 900 POINTS IT'S DED is just a matter of degrees.
The difference between an epic battle against an iconic monster and a two round speed bump is just a matter of degrees.
So why doesn't the AM BARBARIAN just play a naked commoner? It's just a matter of degrees.
Why does the monk need an amulet of might fists? It's just a matter of degrees.
Why does the high dex fighter need an agile weapon to increase his damage? It's just a matter of degrees.
I recommend taking a look at Earthdawn. It has just such a system for magic items.
When I say "I want to earn it" I mean I need to make sure my character scours through libraries, sifts through rumors, questions the artisans, and traces the legends of the Talisman of the San Ke Lei Wang until he pieces all the clues together follows the trail and after many trials obtains it. That item I will value far more highly than if the GM just let me find it the hoard of the Goblin Warrens we just finished cleaning out, or the one I got from dashing down to the corner Mage~mart and plunking down a sack of gold/gems.
Played it... outside of me however there are no GMs for it in the area.
IMO you "earned" it when you killed the original owner and took it off their corpse/out of their hoard, or killed the big bad monster, took his hoard, and then bought the item with your heroically acquired gains.
I don't see the point in going "Yeah killing that dragon? Pretty much worthless to you. None of the treasure here is really that great for you, and I won't let you BUY magic items, so I guess sit on this pile of gold and buy a castle or summat iunno". It kind of de-incentivizes your players to go after said big bad dragons in the future, because there's no real point in doing so...the real quests are the ones you have to go on for Every. Single. Item. You want.
Not everyone wants to play a group of murderhobos out on a quest for loot. They could say "Let's not bother with that dragon because I don't think it's gonna have any loot I want anyway" or they could say "It's time to put a stop to that beast ravaging the countryside." It seems a little strange to me that the only incentive for the players to do anything at all is that they'll get loot.
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Expecting to have a functional character and not be screwed by a spiteful DM seems like an entirely reasonable thing to be "entitled" to.False premise.
Items are a part of the game true enough...
But, expecting a specific item just because you happened to think of build that relies...
Did the GM force you to build a character that was essentially useless if he didnt get exactly what was on his birthday list every level?
Think on items in vid-games which ones did you like best? the ones anyone could just get for a few ducats? Or the ones you had to jump through hoops to obtain?
The ones that worked the best. Which in many cases was indeed the ones you had to quest for, but the difference being that in most videogames you don't need to quest for "basic" gear, which gradually scales with level.
Am I expecting to get a legendary WTF artifact item in a shop? No.
But I would expect to be able to find, in a reasonably sized town, at least the minimum the game expects me to have by that point. +3 sword by level 10, +2 Cloak of Resistances as well, +4 Stat item things like that. Because those are calculated into the CR system, believe it or not.
Much like when you're playing Skyrim the shops gradually upgrade from "Well we've got some iron and leather I guess" to "SELLING EBONY INGOTS! CRAFT YOUR AWESOME ARMOR HERE!" I expect to be traveling to bigger and better cities as time goes by, for a similar effect.
Video games were a bad example for you to pick, because there are VERY few RPGs where buying items is a losing proposition. The only ones I can think of are Diablo-esque loot driven games, where you spend a million in cash on some "epic" ring and find a better one in a goblin's stomach 5 minutes later.
Your Final Fantasies and your Skyrims and your Dragon Ages all carry increasingly better gear as you level.
IMO you "earned" it when you killed the original owner and took it off their corpse/out of their hoard, or killed the big bad monster, took his hoard, and then bought the item with your heroically acquired gains.
I do not see it that way. The dragon was just a side trip on the path to my goal.
I don't see the point in going "Yeah killing that dragon? Pretty much worthless to you. None of the treasure here is really that great for you, and I won't let you BUY magic items, so I guess sit on this pile of gold and buy a castle or summat iunno".
I did not say killing the beast was worthless. There will be treasure there that can be to put to use. Gold and gems buy a lot of information and good will. The Items that do drop will probably be of some use to the party.
It kind of de-incentivizes your players to go after said big bad dragons in the future, because there's no real point in doing so...the real quests are the ones you have to go on for Every. Single. Item. You want.
random Item drops in hoards will produce items of use to the characters. As will Earning the good will of the locals.
But that "essential", my character is incomplete/non-viable without it item? You need to quest for it. Hell the quest may just entail finding the one artisan who can actually craft it for you. (who knows that dragon you just killed? maybe it slaughtered his family and now he will craft that item you desire at no charge. As long as you can obtain these 3 missing elements for him...
As GM I welcome the idea of players wanting something specific for their characters. It gives me fodder for the campaign.
Not everyone wants to play a group of murderhobos out on a quest for loot. They could say "Let's not bother with that dragon because I don't think it's gonna have any loot I want anyway" or they could say "It's time to put a stop to that beast ravaging the countryside." It seems a little strange to me that the only incentive for the players to do anything at all is that they'll get loot.IMO you "earned" it when you killed the original owner and took it off their corpse/out of their hoard, or killed the big bad monster, took his hoard, and then bought the item with your heroically acquired gains.
I don't see the point in going "Yeah killing that dragon? Pretty much worthless to you. None of the treasure here is really that great for you, and I won't let you BUY magic items, so I guess sit on this pile of gold and buy a castle or summat iunno". It kind of de-incentivizes your players to go after said big bad dragons in the future, because there's no real point in doing so...the real quests are the ones you have to go on for Every. Single. Item. You want.
See, not EVERY game is an epic quest though. If you're playing a sandbox, and your players/characters are wandering around, looking for adventure (being adventurers, not heroes), then how you're going to describe it is "And there's a mighty dragon, with a hoard of gold vaster than you can imagine!" to entice them to check it out.
And in heroic campaigns, frankly I don't think it works either, mostly because your epic heroes are basically blowing off their heroics to go on a big epic quest for some magical doodad every time they need something new.
Think on items in vid-games which ones did you like best? the ones anyone could just get for a few ducats? Or the ones you had to jump through hoops to obtain?The ones that worked the best. Which in many cases was indeed the ones you had to quest for, but the difference being that in most videogames you don't need to quest for "basic" gear, which gradually scales with level.
Am I expecting to get a legendary WTF artifact item in a shop? No.
But I would expect to be able to find, in a reasonably sized town, at least the minimum the game expects me to have by that point. +3 sword by level 10, +2 Cloak of Resistances as well, +4 Stat item things like that. Because those are calculated into the CR system, believe it or not.
Much like when you're playing Skyrim the shops gradually upgrade from "Well we've got some iron and leather I guess" to "SELLING EBONY INGOTS! CRAFT YOUR AWESOME ARMOR HERE!" I expect to be traveling to bigger and better cities as time goes by, for a similar effect.
Video games were a bad example for you to pick, because there are VERY few RPGs where buying items is a losing proposition. The only ones I can think of are Diablo-esque loot driven games, where you spend a million in cash on some "epic" ring and find a better one in a goblin's stomach 5 minutes later.
Your Final Fantasies and your Skyrims and your Dragon Ages all carry increasingly better gear as you level.
And yet in every one of those I never bothered to upgrade my gear because I knew as I leveled the drops would get better as well. The shops were a waste of my time.
Not everyone wants to play a group of murderhobos out on a quest for loot. They could say "Let's not bother with that dragon because I don't think it's gonna have any loot I want anyway" or they could say "It's time to put a stop to that beast ravaging the countryside." It seems a little strange to me that the only incentive for the players to do anything at all is that they'll get loot.IMO you "earned" it when you killed the original owner and took it off their corpse/out of their hoard, or killed the big bad monster, took his hoard, and then bought the item with your heroically acquired gains.
I don't see the point in going "Yeah killing that dragon? Pretty much worthless to you. None of the treasure here is really that great for you, and I won't let you BUY magic items, so I guess sit on this pile of gold and buy a castle or summat iunno". It kind of de-incentivizes your players to go after said big bad dragons in the future, because there's no real point in doing so...the real quests are the ones you have to go on for Every. Single. Item. You want.
Its called Hack and Slay mentality and it is older than the hobby. I doubt it will ever go away.
And yet in every one of those I never bothered to upgrade my gear because I knew as I leveled the drops would get better as well. The shops were a waste of my time.
Think on items in vid-games which ones did you like best? the ones anyone could just get for a few ducats? Or the ones you had to jump through hoops to obtain?The ones that worked the best. Which in many cases was indeed the ones you had to quest for, but the difference being that in most videogames you don't need to quest for "basic" gear, which gradually scales with level.
Am I expecting to get a legendary WTF artifact item in a shop? No.
But I would expect to be able to find, in a reasonably sized town, at least the minimum the game expects me to have by that point. +3 sword by level 10, +2 Cloak of Resistances as well, +4 Stat item things like that. Because those are calculated into the CR system, believe it or not.
Much like when you're playing Skyrim the shops gradually upgrade from "Well we've got some iron and leather I guess" to "SELLING EBONY INGOTS! CRAFT YOUR AWESOME ARMOR HERE!" I expect to be traveling to bigger and better cities as time goes by, for a similar effect.
Video games were a bad example for you to pick, because there are VERY few RPGs where buying items is a losing proposition. The only ones I can think of are Diablo-esque loot driven games, where you spend a million in cash on some "epic" ring and find a better one in a goblin's stomach 5 minutes later.
Your Final Fantasies and your Skyrims and your Dragon Ages all carry increasingly better gear as you level.
I never had that experience. Yes you'd get your big badass stuff from bosses (sometimes), but for the most part your standard items either dropped from enemies or you bought them.
All the Final Fantasies I've played (admittedly, only IV, X, and XII, not counting XIV which is an MMO) kept many of the good items in stores, and ONLY in stores. IV was especially egregious about this, but X had its fair share of good items you could only get from a shop or via crafting, and only a handful of good ones (weapons, all, not protective items) you could get from "questing" (Brotherhood and the Legendary Items come to mind). XII, unless I'm mistaken, ONLY had the best items in shops bar two...the Zodiac Spear (which was less "quested for" and more "Hope you read a guide, b@!+&, because you can only get it by NOT opening certain select chests that look no different from the other chests in the game" and the Zodiac other thing, Axe, sword, somethin').
Likewise Dragon Age almost universally has the best items in the game locked behind a paywall. If you took advantage of the duping glitch to get ludicrous amounts of cash you could go to Orzammar right off the bat and get the best ring and amulet on the game, and some of the best weapons and armor (though one of the best armor sets is indeed found only by laboriously searching the entirety of the underground in the Deeps around Orzammar).
Skyrim and most of the other ES games I'm with you on shops being garbage, but so were random drops, things from chests, and most quest rewards. No, the real power of the shops was buying materials to craft your own custom made stuff.
I never had that experience. Yes you'd get your big badass stuff from bosses (sometimes), but for the most part your standard items either dropped from enemies or you bought them.
All the Final Fantasies I've played (admittedly, only IV, X, and XII, not counting XIV which is an MMO) kept many of the good items in stores, and ONLY in stores. IV was especially egregious about this, but X had its fair share of good items you could only get from a shop or via crafting, and only a handful of good ones (weapons, all, not protective items) you could get from "questing" (Brotherhood and the Legendary Items come to mind). XII, unless I'm mistaken, ONLY had the best items in shops bar two...the Zodiac Spear (which was less "quested for" and more "Hope you read a guide, b*!#&, because you can only get it by NOT opening certain select chests that look no different from the other chests in the game" and the Zodiac other thing, Axe, sword, somethin').
Likewise Dragon Age almost universally has the best items in the game locked behind a paywall. If you took advantage of the duping glitch to get ludicrous amounts of cash you could go to Orzammar right off the bat and get the best ring and amulet on the game, and some of the best weapons and armor (though one of the best armor sets is indeed found only by laboriously searching the entirety of the underground in the Deeps around Orzammar).
Skyrim and most of the other ES games I'm with you on shops being garbage, but so were random drops, things from chests, and most quest rewards. No, the real power of the shops was buying materials to craft your own custom made stuff.
The problem with Skyrim is that the entire world leveled up with you. As you got higher level the shops suddenly sold items to match your level, creatures has items to match your level, and random loot chests had items to match your level. Once you got smithing to a certain level the only thing you needed to buy from shops anymore was ingots to make your own new equipment. Even the special quest items and daedric prince items were junk compared to what you could craft and enchant yourself.
Dragon Age just put anything worth having in the shop and everything you found in chests and creatures was just trash to sell so you could buy the good stuff.
But look at a game like Dynasty Warriors. The ONLY way to get the best weapons in the game is to play certain missions on the hardest level and to accomplish certain goals, that usually have nothing to do with the main goal.
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Just to add onto the list of video games where arms and armor shops are king, Fire Emblem. You want to limit players from being able to easily access strong items? In Fire Emblem, only VERY SPECIFIC items that glow green in the inventory can be picked up from enemy inventories at all. You can only get weapons from shops, and if your weapon breaks when there isn't a shop around you are SOL.
The weapons that didn't break were the super legendary items you were expected to use. Items that are directly placed on your adventuring path. Items that are curiously specific to what the major characters of your party wield and would want to use.
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Speaking as a player not a GM now...
If my Monk would be better with the Talisman of Resistance (grants a bonus to all saves... I just made it up, sue me) and I come to realize this. I do not want it just "drop" in a hoard cause I killed a monster, there is no sense of accomplishment to getting the item. It was just handed to me on a platter.
When I say "I want to earn it" I mean I need to make sure my character scours through libraries, sifts through rumors, questions the artisans, and traces the legends of the Talisman of the San Ke Lei Wang until he pieces all the clues together follows the trail and after many trials obtains it. That item I will value far more highly than if the GM just let me find it the hoard of the Goblin Warrens we just finished cleaning out, or the one I got from dashing down to the corner Mage~mart and plunking down a sack of gold/gems.I want A Tale of Glory that justifies the item.
Not a "this old thing? Five ninety eight at Franks Magic Emporium, got it on clearance."
So I guess the question here is what is a 'standard' magical item and what's a 'rare' magical item?
I'll admit, weapons and armor tend to fall into the latter for me, while rings and cloaks (and most wondrous items) fall into the former. Do you make then quest for every item? I mean personally the Talisman (which takes the amulet slot, which is murder to most characters) is a passive bonus, something that's pretty quickly forgotten.
If I want to make an item a 'quest' item, I'd do it for a weapon, and after they had their starter concept weapon (unless this was a low level game), since I'd want them to be functional. Maybe they get their +1 sword from a bandit leader, and eventually get a +4 Frost Devil Bane sword from a demon warlord.
The point I'm trying to make is 'earned' is subjective, and making everything painfully special (quest worthy) is a quick way to change magic shop into a game of finding the rumor for the latest magical swag, which honestly doesn't sound too heroic to me unless every time it coincides with the main story.
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So I guess the question here is what is a 'standard' magical item and what's a 'rare' magical item?
I'll admit, weapons and armor tend to fall into the latter for me, while rings and cloaks (and most wondrous items) fall into the former. Do you make then quest for every item? I mean personally the Talisman (which takes the amulet slot, which is murder to most characters) is a passive bonus, something that's pretty quickly forgotten.
If I want to make an item a 'quest' item, I'd do it for a weapon, and after they had their starter concept weapon (unless this was a low level game), since I'd want them to be functional. Maybe they get their +1 sword from a bandit leader, and eventually get a +4 Frost Devil Bane sword from a demon warlord.
The point I'm trying to make is 'earned' is subjective, and making everything painfully special (quest worthy) is a quick way to change magic shop into a game of finding the rumor for the latest magical swag, which honestly doesn't sound too heroic to me unless every time it coincides with the main story.
The problem more stems from an immersion aspect for me.
The idea of Mage~Marts that have a significant chance to carry just what you are looking for in every settlement of substance (and if they dont? wait a week they will have it then) just strikes me as economically unsound. The major implication being that everything magical really isnt.So for me if it has magic attached to it... It needs to be custom manufactured.
Now... in my worlds this does mean an adjustment had to be made.
Enhancement bonuses are NON-magical in nature. They represent superior craftsmanship/quality. So... need a +2 Battle axe? High likely hood of finding one of those in a major city. That +5 Called, Flaming, Holy, Keen, Adamantine Shang Gou? You are probably going to have to commission it from a master weapon smith, or find the final resting place of its last owner and prove your worthiness to wield it.
Actual Magic Items found in the shops are of the consumable variety. With the odd "permanent" item here and there. The other source of income for these shops is the recharging of "disposables" like wands.
Personally, I'm the opposite. I like the idea of a high magic world where everyone with a bit of disposable income can buy magic brick-a-brak.
IMO in a world where people can cast a spell like Continual Flame, there should be street lamps using it. Especially when there are people who have it as an SLA and can cast it once a day for free. All you need is one cast, and to compensate the caster, and it makes sense to me.
Stuff like that.
In a world with utilizable magic, magic should replace technology, which is how many settings do it.
I see a magic item shop as being no different from Ye Olde Radio Shack, with the more high end stuff being more along the lines of high end suppliers of custom made to order whatevers. Except instead of million dollar computers and custom Lamborghinis they roll out +10 equivalent weapons and armor, Staves of the Master, and whatnot.
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So I guess the question here is what is a 'standard' magical item and what's a 'rare' magical item?I'll admit, weapons and armor tend to fall into the latter for me, while rings and cloaks (and most wondrous items) fall into the former. Do you make then quest for every item? I mean personally the Talisman (which takes the amulet slot, which is murder to most characters) is a passive bonus, something that's pretty quickly forgotten.
For me personally, 'standard' (for heroic-type characters) is a weapon, a piece of armor, and a random smattering of other stuff (with a ring probably being the most common of those). No specifics as to what they do, only that they're magical in some vaguely useful way. 'standard' in the game world is very little, if anything.
I do my best to ensure my players get things that fit with their concept, but they don't ask for specific magical abilities. If a fighter is fighting with a spear, I'll use that to assume the player wants their character as a spear-user and ensure there's a magic spear in there for them somewhere down the line. If a character tends to wear leather armor, I'll put upgraded magical leather armor in the treasure sometimes. The people in my groups don't go in for working out the most optimal items available for their character, so that's all that's needed. I use the lists in the rules as being things that are theoretically possible, not things that automatically exist somewhere in the world at this moment.
As I tend to play settings with a fairly low availability (compared to the rulebook's assumptions) of magic items, finding a magic sword of any kind is a pretty big deal (enough that if one were placed on the market, it'd be gone instantly), it's very doubtful you'd ever be able to find items with a specific ability in my games - on the rare occasions that's needed (such as needing an item that allows planar travel, for example) then it's time to hit the textbooks and follow up on ancient legends to locate one - or look into making it yourself, or hiring someone else to make it for you.
I'm with Damian when it comes to "magic shops" - they're going to be mostly scrolls and potions, with maybe a completely random weapon or two looking for a new owner.
That's what works best for me, personally. I can completely understand people that want a different game experience, but that kind of thing isn't really for me.
I'd say Rynjin and I are completely opposite ends of the scale, but that's the great thing about RPGs - we can be, and both have fun our own way :)
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Personally, I'm the opposite. I like the idea of a high magic world where everyone with a bit of disposable income can buy magic brick-a-brak.
IMO in a world where people can cast a spell like Continual Flame, there should be street lamps using it. Especially when there are people who have it as an SLA and can cast it once a day for free. All you need is one cast, and to compensate the caster, and it makes sense to me.
Stuff like that.
In a world with utilizable magic, magic should replace technology, which is how many settings do it.
I see a magic item shop as being no different from Ye Olde Radio Shack, with the more high end stuff being more along the lines of high end suppliers of custom made to order whatevers. Except instead of million dollar computers and custom Lamborghinis they roll out +10 equivalent weapons and armor, Staves of the Master, and whatnot.
I have GMed and PCed in a couple of games like that in past. They lost their fantasy appeal for me rather quickly though.
Magic was too common place.To quote Syndrome from the Incredibles: "When everyone is super then no one will be."
But as others have said...
If everyday magic is the game you enjoy and the game you play then you are doing it right.
If rare magic is the game you enjoy and the game you play then you are doing it right.
Neither way is wrong.
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But everyone's NOT super, that's the beauty of it.
Everyone has something magical, but the PCs are still quite special. They're very high powered under their own power compared to the standard NPC, once they hit about level 4.
Sure there are some NPCs that are that too, but what's the fun if you're the ONLY one with toys?
Superheroes would be quite boring if they never fought anyone who could directly challenge them.
Which is why I think items looted form corpses are "earned" enough. You wanted a +3 sword? This guy was just trying to kill you with one. He had that advantage, you did not. Good work.
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Oh my goodness that's a lot of reading. One point I want to harp on though is this idea of "magic marts." Where are these places in your games? Barring some silly games as a kid that based loosely around the Bazar at Deva from the Myth series by Robert Lynn Asprin, I've never had a giant warehouse full of magic items.
Similarly though, I've never had a single settlement since converting to 3x that didn't AT LEAST have a crazy old cat lady that could make potions. In fact, I've played with unique ways to work magic consumables into new forms. One town had a crazy old lady making magic pies; she made them with "love" and when you ate them you just felt better - potion of cure light wounds.
I agree with many of you: if the PCs walked into the town square and I said "you see a massive superstore, with the sign 'Wall of Magic Mart' in blue and white and miles of towering shelves stocked with ALL the magic items costing 10k GP or less on them" I'd expect immersion to be compromised. But I don't do that do I. If they're on the hunt for magic items I usually run shopping trips through email, but I'll roleplay it out.
"You enter the small shop crammed with curios and trinkets. Many are useless baubles; other are arcane components used in the casting of spells. The interior is dark, musty, and smells of aging paper. 'Good morning, young master,' a voice purrs from behind the counter. Moments ago there was no one; you're sure of it. Suddenly at second glance there is a crooked little man, his eyes a hungry smolder beneath the white shrubbery of his furrowed brow. 'you are seeking something yes? Something beautiful, something dangerous...something, magical perhaps?' his words drip from his mouth like honey even as the light seems to fade at the corners of the shop until there is only his leering face and you. 'Then step into the parlor then young master; you have discerning eyes that I would not taunt with my usual fare. Such wonderful, young eyes...'"
And that's how, over email, a young wizard might purchase a new wand. I've also had sexually suggestive cougars that came on to the clientele; a tiefling wizard that boasted of his "TRUE power!" but was really a hack; a consortium of kobolds, gnomes and goblins called Tinkers and Gnaws that used spells to rework garbage into art or even magic items...for a price.
Now I'm not begrudging any playstyle here but it seems like the argument is over extremes. Either you can't buy magic items at all OR you have a "magic mart" with all the items listed in the settlement stat block in warehouse next to tubs of rations sold in bulk. I'm here to tell you that there are OTHER ways to buy, sell and craft items that might add to the roleplay of the game, if you're interested. If not, that's fine, but you'll want to make some adjustments if you go magic-light.
Me, I love the idea that you walk into a creepy old curio shop and the old man offers you junk until he realizes you're a real player with real money. Then suddenly he changes his tune and pulls one or two "real pieces" and grins maniacally as he asks (paraphrasing Hellrazer here) "What's your PLEASURE sir?"
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In my experience, the closest thing I've seen the dreaded "magic mart" is people handwaving the RP side of shopping to save game time. While I do recall a few very fun experiences where the GM and players really got into the experience, I can definitely also recall a couple times where looking for gear dragged on to the point of "Are we playing Pathfinder or Shopfinder?"
I guess it's all about playstyles, in the end. Personally, I would prefer having a system where things like AC, saves, and stat boosts were rolled into the character progression instead of having assumed items/WBL as part of CR. That would be a pretty big change to the system, though.
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It also make sense that eventually a shop pwneer will have access or can oprder the item a player wants. When players keep spending gold in a city or village it's not like the the gold just sits there gathering dust. It gets used. In a game that I played in the blacksmith where we bought armor and weapons from kept upgrading his operations. From one man to having four apprentices working for him. Same thing with the Alchemist shop and potion maker. The want the pc to keep spending money and ,ake sure the pcs have a reason to. When pc have more wealth than a average farmer can get in a year it's only to be expected imo.
Why would I keep going to a shop that only carries +1 items when I'm tenth level or higher. Might as well craft a better item of my own. But let me guess some in the thread either ban or nerf crafting as well right. Or the group has to go on a epic quest to just craft a +1 suit of armor
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I would think that something that important and centrally thematic to your character you would WANT to gain in a flavorful and story driven way rather than stuffed into a random loot drop.
As a player if I intend to make a story around an item how I got the item is not a factor. I could have purchased it, and my story could be the seller did not see how special it was. Or maybe it was supposed to be an ordinary purchase, but if it allows me to roll a few crits at the right time then I could later one believe it was my fate to have it, while in reality it was all luck.
If I got it from an enemy I killed I could work that into the story. I don't need all of the extra effort from the GM to work an item into a story, for the same reason I hand-wave shopping as a GM. I just want the item.
As an example I came into a game with a mw longspear, but due to some good luck I am now calling it the spear of destiny.
Oh my goodness that's a lot of reading. One point I want to harp on though is this idea of "magic marts." Where are these places in your games? Barring some silly games as a kid that based loosely around the Bazar at Deva from the Myth series by Robert Lynn Asprin, I've never had a giant warehouse full of magic items.
Magic mart does not have to mean there is an actual store like Wal-mart that has items lined up along the malls. The idea is that the players are allowed to get what they want for the most part.
If the players ask about it in my games I say it is a combination of some magic shops, maybe a few collectors, some retired adventurers, and maybe someone who may have just have a better item, and no longer needs the old one.
PS: So for those of you reading this magic mart=item availability per RAW, not "stores around every corner"
If you don't like the flavor then change it, but if you just want to be restrictive then admit to it, and don't hide behind "I dislike stores selling magic items".
In my experience, the closest thing I've seen the dreaded "magic mart" is people handwaving the RP side of shopping to save game time.
Exactly.. :)
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Money is only as valuable as what you can buy with it.
I'm very disappointed, but it was worth it to read Tacticslion's posts. :)
Thanks bro! All too often, it's the same with you!
I don't recall saying that I want to play a game in which naked commoners run around punching dragons to death because HEROICS! But the difference being a matter of degrees brings up some interesting points.
The difference between a low magic party and a bunch of naked commoners punching a dragon to death is just a matter of degrees.
The difference between a low magic party and AM BARBARIAN RAGELANCEPOUNCE DRAGON 900 POINTS IT'S DED is just a matter of degrees.
The difference between an epic battle against an iconic monster and a two round speed bump is just a matter of degrees.
So why doesn't the AM BARBARIAN just play a naked commoner? It's just a matter of degrees.
Why does the monk need an amulet of might fists? It's just a matter of degrees.
Why does the high dex fighter need an agile weapon to increase his damage? It's just a matter of degrees.
You... seriously ignored every point that I made.
You're right (since you're quoting me): it's all a matter of degrees.
1) to some, the idea of commoners killing a dragon with naught but their tools is ridiculous; to some, it's awesome
2) to some, the idea of AM BARBARIAN eliminating the dragon is ridiculous; to some it's awesome
3) to some, the idea of {insert thing here} is ridiculous; to some it's awesome
The reason an "AM BARBARIAN" player doesn't play "commoners v. dragons" is because s/he doesn't want to.
The fact that you took my "matter of degrees" comment as an insult is silly. Stop looking for a fight. It wasn't meant as one.
EDIT: don't to doesn't - when I changed this before posting from a rant to a more reasonable response, that edit didn't make it. Whoops!
Actually, Simon, let me ask you:
Are you railing against the idea because people try and do that in your games?
Or are you railing against anonymous people discussing how they enjoy games in a way different from your preferences online?
The former is understandable, but is simply a clash as I noted above. Talk with them about it, explain how it is when you run, and allow them to handle it differently when they run, and then continue playing to your tastes - either with them or not.
The latter is just bizarre. Human, to be sure, but bizarre.
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I noticed how he ignored every point you made also Tacticslion. Maybe he can come back and address the points instead of quoting you out of context. A mature discussion can't be too much to ask for.
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I noticed how he ignored every point you made also Tacticslion. Maybe he can come back and address the points instead of quoting you out of context. A mature discussion can't be too much to ask for.
It's a rare treat. Everytime I approach any sort of argument by actually respecting the other person and their argument enough to take the time to discuss each point for point, it generally just results in my own frustration as it's rare that anyone up here actually wants to discuss these things for any reason other than to look at their own text ('cause I swear to god, my pet hatred is people not bothering to read what they're arguing).
That said, it does make the quality of others really stand out. When people like you or Tacticslion post, it's like a light in the dark. :P
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Money is only as valuable as what you can buy with it.
Continuing on this thought process, let's look at treasure and wealth for a moment...
The vast majority of things that wealth can get you is pretty useless to a wanderlust filled adventurer, or even just an adventurer in general. Most things that you would presumably spend large amounts of money on aren't going to be things that you can carry around, and in most campaigns where adventure is a viable means of playing the game there are usually large amounts of unclaimed / ungoverned land that you can explore and claim during your adventuring if you want to, so even things like being awarded lands and titles are of little more than a perk or honorific.
This is especially true as levels rise. By 10th level, you typical party of adventures don't need no stinkin' gold pieces to do things like create fortresses, towers, or even entire settlements. A wizard with wall of stone and animate dead can walk out into the wilderness and start a town on demand, producing some 50 ft. long 2 inch thick stone slabs/walls on demand, or 25 ft. 4 inch, etc. Anything you can't just make with wall of stone you can supervise your untrained undead workforce (each mindless undead has a +0 Craft modifier, but Craft says you can supervise and direct them appropriately) which means that you can work out the details of any of the fancy stuff you want to add and they can do most of the legwork.
So what do you want gold and stuff for? For buying and crafting magic items. The same reason everyone else wants lots of gold for. In a world with magic, magic is the commodity. It's just a fact. It cannot be otherwise. Those with magic are going to be in demand and magic is going to be wanted by everyone. People without magic want magic and people with magic want more magic. Mundane stuff is cheap. You want a herd of cattle? 1,000 gp buys you a herd of 100 cows outright.
Thing is, gold is pretty useless for bribes and stuff too. People don't need lots and lots of gold if there are no magic items for sale. For the same reason the party doesn't care about gold, most everyone else isn't going to care about it that much either unless they need to pay large quantities of workers for mundane tasks. So maybe if you're in a politics heavy game where you bribe a local lord for...wait, what are we bribing him for again? He has nothing that we want. The classically standard reason for adventuring is to collect treasure. That treasure is worthless save for buying magic items. If we have to bribe the local king to tell us where the +4 sword is, we're doing it wrong.
Idk, if the gold can be used to buy consumables it is still very useful.
Also going all Kingdom building or using ultimate campaign rules also make gold very useful.
Never underestimate the power of money.
Magic would have a drastic impact on the world and economies with how floode the market is with items in golarion. Items are really everywhere and cost 1000s of GP. Its. Ooften not even kings with the items but ordinary people.
So what? the world is flooded with gold but it holds its value and flooded with items but they hold their value? And people make sp a day? Is half the population uber rich and the other half dirt poor? Yet I haven't come across class structured societies in playing in golarion. And if standard wages are silver like 5 sp a day and these common items are thousands of gold it makes them what the equivalent of $400,000+ kust at the bottom and people aren't paying in payments or lease but up front cash..that apparently they store under their pillow.
Its really not my favorite setting at all.
The game is an abstraction so it will not simulate real life economics well. Actually, I don't know of any RP that does, but at least Pathfinder has gold spending limit depending on the size of the town.
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To be fair though it's a problem in many fantasy rpg settings. Where the pcs have a lot of cash yet the npcs at most silver, a few coppers and a rare gold piece. Which is why in my games if players are dropping 5000+ gps on items the vendor improves his selection and carries more items. Or improves the quality of current items being carried.
It's almost as bad as humans always being the dominant race without any logical in fantasy rpgs beyond that the devs wanted humans to be th dominant race.
How could anyone roll into a city and find a +3 longsword unless you are assuming your setting is industrial in nature?
I wrote a post on this not to far up. Here it is again.
So there is a logical reason for Magic Mart (and its inclusion as Golarion-default). But it has serious flavor consequences.
Actually the core rules for DND 3.X and Pathfinder assume the items are not hard to find. It is not a setting issue. It is how the core rules are.
PS: I don't mean "issue" in a bad way.
I don't see why high Int and Wis people wouldn't rather make money via crafting as oppose to almost dying adventuring.
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Idk, if the gold can be used to buy consumables it is still very useful.
Also going all Kingdom building or using ultimate campaign rules also make gold very useful.
Never underestimate the power of money.
Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there really isn't much difference between consumables and any other magic items. You have to be the same level of competency with magic to make potions and oils as it does wondrous items.
I don't see what's wrong with being able to find someone who works magic into swords or shields or carpets if it's fine to walk into town and buy a potion that will make you grow to 12 ft. tall or fly around or be able to walk through a fire without getting hurt.
Though I guess we could play Dungeons and Drug-Addicts. It's not like you can't replace most common item effects with potions by upping the effective caster level. I mean, for 1,000 gp you can get a +5 deflection bonus to your AC for quite a while. 5,000 gp can get you a CL 20 greater dispel magic for 20 hours.
Generally I like to drop unique items into the game myself. These are usually items that have x/day effects or simply do something beyond a static effect. Generally if an item is worth questing for, it's going to be stand out from generic magic items in a noticeable way.
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I don't see why high Int and Wis people wouldn't rather make money via crafting as oppose to almost dying adventuring.
For some it is just the thrill of the adventure, and it is likely better money than staying home, assuming money is the main motivation.
I don't see why high Int and Wis people wouldn't rather make money via crafting as oppose to almost dying adventuring.
Speed, mostly. EDIT: ninja'd by wraithstrike
A single sale gives a huge amount of money in an immediate sense, but the Campaign Guide notes that you're still just making money by way of Profession check, on average.
Of course, why high INT and WIS people would go out risking life and limb instead of taking, say, forty-or-so people overflowing with various alchemical weapons and a few low-grade easy-to-access wards, I'm not sure either. That's rather safe adventuring.
Or, even better, the Pokemon effect: a conjurer, summoner, druid, cleric, or other caster with "summon" on their list can "go adventuring" in relative safety and reap all the rewards.
Or, even better, the My Will Be Done effect, where a caster of some sort chain-binds outsiders to create an ever-growing omnipotent wish machine that reshapes all of the omniverses into your likeness.
Or whatever other than actually "adventuring", really, because it's really quite dangerous... but it does come with some solid perks and great rewards.
Ultimately, why adventurers adventure (and how the world responds to that, or their attempts not to adventure as outlined above) comes down to the individual fiat of the table (especially the GM), combined expectations of that table (especially the GM), and the individual motivations of the characters in question ("we can't let the dragon destroy everything!" is just as valid as, "but we'll get rich so much faster this way!" as is, "think of all the cool stuff we'll see!" as is, "well, she's set to go, so I'll go to, even if it is suicidal!" among all sorts of other things).
And Adventurers do make money. And, importantly, they make it quickly.
And, as I noted up there, depending on your play style and RP, you could easily have the emotional element of a person or the belief element overwhelm their rational element.
Also, Markthus, what with the various avatars you've sported my ADD-addled self took forever to recognize you. Hi! :D
Also, Markthus, what with the various avatars you've sported my ADD-addled self took forever to recognize you. Hi! :D
Hi! :D
I meant that there are probably casters who do sit around all day in town making and selling items. Not all the high Int and Wis people are going to risk adventuring and dying or accidentally making powerful enemies.