Day Job Rolls in PFS


Pathfinder Society

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Silver Crusade 3/5

I was readying the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play and came across page 21 where it talks about step 2:day job. I'm a little confused about this and wanted to get a developer,some gm's or venture officers's point of view on this.

In my readying I see where your equipement if it grants to you permanent bonus while wearing the equipement all day long that it's boost to your skill can be added to the day job roll. Those this include the Mask of Stony Demeanor since it adds to bluff checks and you can use bluff as a day job roll if you have the caravan vanity which lets you either use bluff or dimplomacy for day job roll?

From my understanding the mask is an equipement which grants its boost to bluff and lets you lie all day long. It isn't like a casting of a spell but instead an equipement correct? If it's not considered an equipement can you list something which is considered an equipment that helps you on your day job rolls?

I'm asking this also because a VL stated that is not an allowable usage of the mask or any other item other than the ones listed in the day job discriptor. I see it as it falling under equipment or am I wrong?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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You are right that it is equipment.

Your VO is right in telling you that wearing the mask will not help you with your Day Job roll.

Mask of Stony Demeanor wrote:
When worn, this mask transforms the wearer's face into a stone statue and its voice into an emotionless monotone. Though it allows the wearer to speak, its facial expressions and voice betray little emotion, granting a +10 competence bonus on Bluff checks made to lie and a +5 competence bonus on Bluff checks made to feint, but also imposes a –5 penalty on Bluff checks made to pass a hidden message.

The mask is giving you circumstantial bonuses and penalties to Bluff. Day Job modifiers must apply to the entire skill to be useful. In this case, you'd need an item that gave you "+X to Bluff", not "+X to Bluff when lying".

Also, flagged for removal to the PFS forum.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

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Mask of Stony Deameanor wrote:
When worn, this mask transforms the wearer's face into a stone statue and its voice into an emotionless monotone. Though it allows the wearer to speak, its facial expressions and voice betray little emotion, granting a +10 competence bonus on Bluff checks made to lie and a +5 competence bonus on Bluff checks made to feint, but also imposes a –5 penalty on Bluff checks made to pass a hidden message.

This bolded text, from the description of the item, is the problem.

I believe for it to count towards a day job that the bonus needs to be generic. In other words, if it said it grants a "+10 competence bonus on Bluff checks" and not the words "made to (do something)", then you could use it on the day job roll. I might be wrong here, but I think this is where your VL is coming from as well. Adding to the argument is that the mask also gives a penalty to Bluff under certain circumstances.

The problem is that it's a specific bonus that applies to something that may or may not apply to what's involved in your day job.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Um if you go and read in the Core Handbook page 90, under the skill Bluff it states that Bluff checks are modified depending on the believability of the Lie. Bluff is use against people's Sense Motive and under sense motive that skill is used to avoid being bluffed to. So in all aspects the Bluff skill is lying to the listener. Basically this mask is giving you a statue face that shows no emotion so it helps to not give away the fact that you are lying. Remember you are using the Bluff skill with the caravan vanity to smuggle with.

Remember on the vanity Caravan when using it to Bluff it reads as "
If, on the other hand, you want to skirt the laws, focus on
smuggling, and otherwise use deception to maintain the
caravan’s success, you can use Bluff to make Day Job rolls."

As you can see it uses Deception.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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Avatar-1 and Nefreet are correct here. Unless the item specifically grants a bonus on Day Job rolls, the item must grant a uniform bonus to the entire skill to help with a Day Job roll.

These Work
+2 Bluff
+5 on Bluff checks made as part of a Day Job check

These Don't
+2 Bluff to tell a lie
+5 on Handle Animal checks made to rear a wild animal
+10 on Diplomacy checks to request favors
+4 on Heal checks to apply first aid

Silver Crusade 3/5

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Doesn't the item already grant a bonus to the part that you want to use it for? It grants +10 to lying which is just talking to the listener, while feint requires you to use your body(uses less emotion since it's you're body moving and gives less of a bonuses.)You're using the mask to help you aid your Bluff skill which is your lying ability and that's what the mask was made to help you with. Remember you are using the mask's ability to lie with not to feint with or pass secret messeges. Not only that the person you are lying to doesn't get the circumstances to counter your bluff on page 90 of the core book since they don't get them when you aren't wearing the mask.

As for items granting bonuses to the skill roll on day job rolls, then what about the alchemist lab which grants a +2 (Circumstance Bonus) to the alchemy skill?

Kind of like when you use a kitsune's ability to take on the appearance of a person which gives a +10 to disguise, yet you don't talk like them or move like them (these other things you can use other spells to talk like the person you look like and other spell to move like them which would add to the disguise bonus even more since they are different)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I can see where a smuggler might need to send a secret message, or resort to feinting an overly curious guard at a checkpoint.

But John Compton answered your question. And your VL. And a couple posters/GMs.

Aren't those the opinions you were asking for in your first post?

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

poundpuppy30 wrote:
Doesn't the item already grant a bonus to the part that you want to use it for?

Whatever it says doesn't matter. Unless it says "+X for Day Job rolls" then any situation task including one that grammatically is identical to how day jobs are used won't help a day job roll.

In other words, it only works on static "always on" bonuses to a skill. Mr Compton gave some fine examples of what does and does not work. Ultimately, what he says on the matter is all that counts and you are wrong about the item.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Ok. I see what you're saying. So then for example if you use craft alchemy as your day job then can you add an alchemist lab +2 circumstance bonus on craft alchemy checks to your day job roll? Isn't craft alchemy check what is needed on the day job roll and not craft alchemy skill check? The lab is permanent equipment correct?

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

poundpuppy30 wrote:
Ok. I see what you're saying. So then for example if you use craft alchemy as your day job then can you add an alchemist lab +2 circumstance bonus on craft alchemy checks to your day job roll? Isn't craft alchemy check what is needed on the day job roll and not craft alchemy skill check? The lab is permanent equipment correct?

Yes. The alchemist's lab gives a +2 bonus on craft (alchemy). Period. It can be used for a day job.

If you had an object that "provides a +4 bonus on craft (alchemy) when making an acidic item" you couldn't use it.

edit: If it comes up, the alchemist's lab is considered the masterwork tool for craft (alchemy) so even though it is a circumstance bonus it doesn't stack with a portable alchemist's lab.

5/5 5/55/55/5

or as a bigger bonus, the alchemists level to the roll to make and identify items. (i can't see them making any other rolls to make money with their alchemy)

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
or as a bigger bonus, the alchemists level to the roll to make and identify items. (i can't see them making any other rolls to make money with their alchemy)

That does stack with the alchemist's lab. The alchemist class ability is a competence bonus, the lab is a circumstance bonus.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Except the Alchemist class ability is limited, just like the Mask of Stony Demeanor.

Alchemy wrote:
When using Craft (alchemy) to create an alchemical item, an alchemist gains a competence bonus equal to his class level on the Craft (alchemy) check.

This bonus only counts towards "creating alchemical items", not towards the other uses of the Craft (alchemy) skill check. You should not be applying it to your Day Job roll.

Craft skill wrote:
You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the craft's daily tasks, how to supervise untrained helpers, and how to handle common problems.

I see a lot of Alchemist players get this wrong, though, so you're not alone.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Hey Nefreet not to restart this question but at what point would someone without the mask doing a bluff roll on caravan vanity get those penalties to fient and pass secret messages because I've only known the GM to ask for a bluff roll for that day job roll. (This is why I thought the mask was usable for the day job since you are just using it for a bluff roll to lie and the day job rolls dont get those other circumstances that require feint in combat, or passing secret messages. This might be why people keep asking about that mask)


poundpuppy30 wrote:
Hey Nefreet not to restart this question but at what point would someone without the mask doing a bluff roll on caravan vanity get those penalties to fient and pass secret messages because I've only known the GM to ask for a bluff roll for that day job roll. (This is why I thought the mask was usable for the day job since you are just using it for a bluff roll to lie and the day job rolls dont get those other circumstances that require feint in combat, or passing secret messages. This might be why people keep asking about that mask)

None of the mask's modifiers apply to day job checks.

poundpuppy30 wrote:
at what point would someone without the mask doing a bluff roll on caravan vanity get those penalties to fient and pass secret messages

You answered your own question - someone without the mask does not get those mask-related penalties.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Someone with the mask shouldn't get them either is why I'm saying people are asking about the mask so much since it helps one to bluff in lying. If you don't get the penality without the mask using the same bluff you don't get them with the mask either. See why people are asking about it?

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

Poundpuppy, I don't understand what it is you're asking with this new line of inquiry. Would you please rephrase your question to be clearer?

3/5 5/5

poundpuppy30 wrote:
Someone with the mask shouldn't get them either is why I'm saying people are asking about the mask so much since it helps one to bluff in lying. If you don't get the penality without the mask using the same bluff you don't get them with the mask either. See why people are asking about it?

Out of cheese error: re-install universe and reboot.

What are you trying to say? That paragraph didn't make any sense.


Poundpuppy, the mask is like a double edged sword. It helps you, but it also hurts you. You take the penalties the mask causes in order to gain its benefits.

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

Im with John. That sentence no sense make all.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Ok what I'm saying is this. People misunderstand the mask because it adds +10 competence bonus to bluff in circumstances that require you to lie. With the caravan vanity you use bluff to smuggle things which is a shady business and requires bluff (must people think bluff is used to lie to people so your good are smuggled like those overly curious guards Nefreet mentioned earlier, other people like custom agents, or other business people you are smuggling for)

The feint part of the mask isn't used on a day job roll because without the mask a person doesn't use feint with their bluff in their day job roll with the caravan vanity(plus feint is used in combat maneuvers and if you doing that you have other problems with the guards already) so with the mask they wouldn't be using it either.

The passing secret messages might be used with the caravan vanity but that requires a DC check according to the core book and thats not used when rolling bluff without the mask while using the caravan vanity so it wouldn't be used while wearing the mask.

These are the reasons why people misunderstand the mask and ask about it being allowed to be used in day job rolls. When using the Caravan vanity to smuggle items you use bluff to lie becaue when you are at the customs agents front desk and he asks whats in the box you aren't going to say illegal items, but instead you would lie and state some lie to get you thru customs that they might believe so they don't look in the box.

People say there are penalities but when you talk about those penalties feint isn't used with caravan vanity like I stated and passing secret messages isn't either since both aren't used when not wearing the mask either.(See where I'm going with this?)

Now if you are going to argue the mask makes you look all stony face, makes you talk like a robo cop and that would trigger people to not allow it then fine you have a strong arguing point till someone can find a way that allows them to hide the mask that at least lasts 24 hours.(but I see what John is saying that it has to say +10 competence bonus to bluff [without it saying when used to lie but you see why people misunderstand why they find it hard to understand why it's not allowed?]

Shadow Lodge 3/5

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You're overanalysing it poundpuppy.

The simple answer is what was mentioned in the first few posts - it has to either say just +5 to bluff or +5 to bluff checks made as part of a day job check - or it doesn't apply.

Any other logic, regardless of how you look at it, simply doesn't transcribe to the game's rules.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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Gotcha. I agree that a very respectable chunk of what you're doing with that caravan probably involves lying. There might be some parts that involve don't involve lying yet nonetheless use Bluff.

Here's the problem (explaining it involves my putting on my skeptical mask, which is not intended as a slight toward anyone):

A player dedicated to securing a particular result can probably devise a sound argument for how his character is using [character option] to achieve [somewhat related result]. Can we say with absolute confidence that your caravan job never involves passing a hidden message, such as by reminding a customs agent that the check (read: bribe) is in the mail (read: the usual spot)? If it does, how do we calculate that? Do you instead get a +2.5 bonus on your Day Job roll (the average)? Do you get a +5 because you're clearly lying more often than you're passing messages? What if I (as a typical GM) tell you that running a successful Bluff caravan is mostly about hidden messages and not about lying, ruling that the mask grants you a net –2 penalty?

Here are some mildly exaggerated examples:

Diplomacy: This bracelet gives me a +20 bonus to improve a creature's attitude but no bonus to ask for favors. My caravan involves my making everyone helpful so that I don't even have to ask for favors; they just give me money without my asking.
Intimidate: These boots give me a +10 bonus to demoralize an enemy but only a +5 bonus to change their attitude, so my caravan master scares people and picks up the money they drop.

When we start entering the realm in which an individual player's crafted argument is pitted against an individual GM's judgment—particularly over something like the handful of gold earned with a Day Job roll—we're entering some really ugly sub-territory of table variation. We have plenty of other ways to realize great rewards through clever plans, which form the basis for a lot of the "reward creative solutions" and "[in-game] table variation" (like the "Yeah, I'll give you a +2 on the Diplomacy check because you sang an awesome drinking song" sort).

Remember that invented GM ruling above that granted a -2 on the roll instead of a +10? Some people might accept that GM's ruling. Others might complain and cause a big fuss. Ultimately it would come down to Mike and me having to make sub-rulings about each and every variation. That's neither necessary nor healthful.

As a result, see my first post in this thread.

Regarding alchemists and their class bonus, would somebody take a look around to see if there's a ruling or special rule about that? I'm remembering that bonus applying, but the last time I researched it was around two years ago. Thanks!


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John - the best I could find was in the FAQ. It explicitly says that the items created using the Alchemy class feature can't be sold. Although this particular ruling is in the context of creating items to be sold back mechanically at profit, I think it creates a specificity/functional conflict with day jobs. There's actually a lot of strong arguing for both positions in threads all throughout 2010-2013, so short of someone laying out the law I don't see a solid ruling.

It's not like there's no precedent for class features modifying day jobs - gladhandling bards comes to mind, and valet familiars are a grey area.

5/5 5/5 *

The way I personally see Day Job checks is this:

What you get on your singular roll is the average result of every skill check that would go into roleplaying a full day at work. If I was using Craft for my day job checks, and I rolled an 18, that means my store had high foot traffic and whatever my bonus to Craft is indicates my ability to fulfill all orders and just generally deal with customers. If I rolled a 3, that would mean there was either low foot traffic, or that I botched my Diplomacy rolls with the customers. It could also mean I spent most of the day doing inventory or paperwork or some other work that needs to get done to keep the store operating, but doesn't bring in as much money (like when working a job that's part wage and part commission).

Let's look at the Caravan example, using Bluff and the bonuses and penalties from the mask in question. So we're looking at a PC that's really good at the lying aspect of Bluff, but relatively poor at the secret messages aspect of Bluff. A good roll would mean a day that was mainly spent dealing with customers and suppliers. A below average roll would mean a day working out bribes. A terrible roll might mean a day spent trying to forge customs documents for a PC with no ranks in Linguistics.

So when performing the Day Job, you are rolling once for multiple different skill checks - Diplomacy with customers and bureaucratic officials, Bluff to do an up-sell, Linguistics for paperwork, Strength checks to carry in crates of supplies, Dex checks to stock shelves in an organized way, Wisdom checks to advertise, Appraise checks to properly price goods, Perception checks to watch out for shoplifters, etc, etc, etc.
The skill we roll with is the one that is the most important for the particular job the character has. The bonus to the skill is how good the character is at the job, and the actual roll is the average of how good the character is at the other aspects of the job compared with what was needed of him on that day.

Items that grant bonuses to skills only assist on day job checks when the bonus is to all aspects of that skill. If we were to apply situational bonuses to day job checks, then the GM would need to break down what happened at your business that day, what rolls were needed of you, and how well you did on each one. And then try to calculate the result of the day job from multiple skill checks on wildly varying skills and situations. So a lot of extra work for what is normally less than 100 extra gold.

Then, all of a sudden, we are roleplaying 9-5 jobs, which is not at all what we are here to do.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Yes but John a pass secret message dc is not required for the caravan vanity day job roll. (For some reason people want to include feint and secret messages to the day job roll and neither is required of a person rolling a day job roll with bluff. If I didn't have or own the mask of stony demeanor and did my day job roll with caravan vanity would you be requiring me to do a feint and secret message dc check first?) People are using those two other items about the mask to disallow the mask yet those two other items aren't even rolled when doing the day job roll without the mask.

(again you wont be using feint or secret messages in a regular day job roll without the mask so why try to add them when you have the mask?)

Here's an example. Lets say I have a magical item called "Horse-meat packing machine". It gives a +10 competence bonus to profession butchering if you use horse meat(hence the name), +5 if you use dog meat and a -5 on human meat( You know how the FDA wouldn't like this). Now lets say I buy the vanity (we will make one up here) "Horse Meat Packing Plant". According to everyone's logic about the mask this Horse-meat packing machine shouldn't be allowed to give me that +10 competence bonus since it has several categories and not just +10 competence to Butchering (yet I'm working at a horse meat packing plant, I'm not cutting up dogs or humans.)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

poundpuppy, read the Caravan vanity again.

Is the word "lie" used anywhere?

No. Just the word "Bluff".

You need an item that gives a constant bonus to "Bluff".

Not just a bonus to "lying".

5/5 5/55/55/5

John Compton wrote:
Gotcha. I agree that a very respectable chunk of what you're doing with that caravan probably involves lying. There might be some parts that involve don't involve lying yet nonetheless use Bluff.

On the other end of the spectrum you have things like the alchemists bonus to craft alchemy. With a craft skill you make money by well... making stuff. While you can come up with ideas for how they make money besides making stuff (consulting fees?) anything that increases their ability to make stuff should be boosting their income.

Not that it matters much. Its a pretty small % of your income and it only gets smaller as you level.

Horizon Hunters 4/5 5/5 *** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Indianapolis

poundpuppy30 wrote:


Here's an example. Lets say I have a magical item called "Horse-meat packing machine". It gives a +10 competence bonus to profession butchering if you use horse meat(hence the name), +5 if you use dog meat and a -5 on human meat( You know how the FDA wouldn't like this). Now lets say I buy the vanity (we will make one up here) "Horse Meat Packing Plant". According to everyone's logic about the mask this Horse-meat packing machine shouldn't be allowed to give me that +10 competence bonus since it has several categories and not just +10 competence to Butchering (yet I'm working at a horse meat packing plant, I'm not cutting up dogs or humans.)

Correct. The item, "Horse-meat packing machine" only applies circumstancial comptetence bonuses. That is, it only applies bonuses under specifc applications of the skill (horse meat, dog meat, human met.) the "Horse Meat Packing Plant" applies +10 competence bonuses in ALL circumstances where it is used for butchering.

Your first item, the bonus applies only in certian circumstances; the second item, it applies in ALL circumstances. Accordingly, you can use the one that applies in ALL circumstances, but not the one that applies only in CERTAIN circumstances.

You use the phrase, "...since it has several categories" in reference to the machine. That's not the right way to look at it. Rather, look at it in the context that its bonus only applies in certain circumstances - yes, the bonus varies depending on the circumstances, but the fact that it is circumstancial is what makes it inapplicable to a day job roll.

If it applies in SOME, but not all, circumstances, it cannot be used for your day job roll. If it applies in ALL circumstances, it can be used for your day job roll.

Mark

Sovereign Court 4/5

PP30, the thing is that a merchant never does only one type of bluff check. He must make all sorts of checks between lying, passing secret messages, and the like. You can't just pick one aspect and go with it. That's not how jobs work.

As for your meat packing plant, it obviously is not a dedicated horse meat plant if it gives you a bonus for dog meat as well. So logically, because it gives you a bonus for dog you must also deal in dog meat.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

poundpuppy, you are rolling a single Bluff check. You're not rolling a Bluff check to lie, nor are you rolling a Bluff check to pass a secret message. The roll is abstract, so you do not get bonuses to it that involve concrete circumstances.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Hey Sior if I don't own a mask of stony demeanor or have ever heard of one yet I have caravan vanity for my day job. Do I roll several bluff checks 1 for lying, 1 for feint and 1 for secret messages (which also requires a dc check of 15 for simple and 20 for complex). If I do all those rolls how are we determining what my day job total is to compare it to the chart for gold (lets remember I'm not wearing the mask of stony demeanor)

Shadow Lodge 4/5

What does it matter if you aren't wearing a mask?

Or are we going to switch back to you wearing the mask after saying that not wearing the mask has no effect on your (singular) day job roll?

Sovereign Court 4/5

It is one roll which encompasses all of those. All. All in one. It is an abstract roll and always has been. As TOZ said. You are going too literally with this.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Toz the reason I'm saying if a person doesn't own a mask of stony demeanor and has bluff with the caravan vanity for day job. They are required to roll bluff for their day job roll and 1 roll only. They aren't required to do " 1 for lying, 1 for feint and 1 for secret messages (which also requires a dc check of 15 for simple and 20 for complex)"

Yet if I go and purchase a mask of stony demeanor and wear it for that same type of day job people expect me to feint and pass secret messages which both of these weren't required when I didn't own the mask.

Sior if it's just one roll when does the dc check come into play for secret message( can't just roll a bluff check without the dc check for secret message according to page 90 of the core book, and when does the feint( which is used in combat and has a dc check also) come into play? (lets say you don't own a mask of stony demeanor and have this day job with the caravan vanity.)

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
poundpuppy30 wrote:
Yet if I go and purchase a mask of stony demeanor and wear it for that same type of day job people expect me to feint and pass secret messages which both of these weren't required when I didn't own the mask.

No we don't. It was an example of how getting that granular just opens the door to arguments and problems for no real benefit.

Quote:
During these times, you can attempt a trained Craft, Perform, or Profession check to see how much extra money you earn— this is called a Day Job check.

Not a check to lie, nor to pass messages. To determine how much extra money is made.

Silver Crusade 3/5

"PP30, the thing is that a merchant never does only one type of bluff check. He must make all sorts of checks between lying, passing secret messages, and the like. You can't just pick one aspect and go with it. That's not how jobs work."

If I'm a mechant at a bizzar and you walk up to me I'm not going to pass you secret messages, or feint but instead I'm going to use bluff to lie to you, since I want you to buy my product. Here is your example of a merchant only using 1 aspect of bluff the lying part. There is plenty of these type of merchants in the game by the way who only do this.

Grand Lodge 4/5

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Show me in the rules for Day Jobs where it says you can do that.

Sovereign Court 4/5

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poundpuppy30 wrote:
Sior if it's just one roll when does the dc check come into play for secret message[...]

It doesn't. You're not making a skill check, you're making a Day Job roll.

Sovereign Court 4/5

poundpuppy30 wrote:
If I'm a mechant at a bizzar and you walk up to me I'm not going to pass you secret messages, or feint but instead I'm going to use bluff to lie to you, since I want you to buy my product. Here is your example of a merchant only using 1 aspect of bluff the lying part. There is plenty of these type of merchants in the game by the way who only do this.

Yes, but while I'm there, your supplier who isn't really on the up and up comes up to you, and you try to pass him a secret message without me knowing. Your day job is not about one single transaction but an abstract roll reflecting your business as a whole. It is simply "I have a good week" or "I have a bad week" or "Eh, it was alright".

Seriously, though, why is it such a big deal?

Silver Crusade 3/5

"Yes, but while I'm there, your supplier who isn't really on the up and up comes up to you, and you try to pass him a secret message without me knowing. Your day job is not about one single transaction but an abstract roll reflecting your business as a whole. It is simply "I have a good week" or "I have a bad week" or "Eh, it was alright". "

If I dont have a mask of stony demeanor would I only be required to roll 1 bluff check for my day job roll because according to you I would have to also roll a dc for the secret message example above.

Lets say you have a player who has the caravan vanity and they do the bluff part Sior will you be making them roll a dc for secret message also? Will you be making them do a feint also? If you answer no to both of these being required for the day job roll then why would you be asking that same player who buys that mask of stony demeanor the next scenario to do feint and dc for secret messages?

Triomegazero show me where a player has to do feint or secret message dc checks along with their bluff checks for their day job roll in the rules?

Silver Crusade 3/5

Yes, but while I'm there, your supplier who isn't really on the up and up comes up to you, and you try to pass him a secret message without me knowing. Your day job is not about one single transaction but an abstract roll reflecting your business as a whole. It is simply "I have a good week" or "I have a bad week" or "Eh, it was alright".

If I'm a smart crookd merchant I wouldn't be passing secret messages with my name or signature on them or any messages since even a message can be traced back with spells.(specially those pesky pathfinders)I would do face to face transactions where I can lie to that person (hard to lie in a letter also and get those high bluff checks). If someone came up to me while we are talking Sior I'd tell them to wait in my office(something I wouldn't also do is have crooked people come to my business for others to spot them there but instead would meet them somewhere else.)

Sovereign Court 4/5

I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that ALL aspects of Bluff are being used in a SINGLE Day Job roll. The mask has different bonuses to different aspects and is therefore circumstantial.

As has been said before in this thread:
+x to Bluff = Usable in Day Job roll.
+x to Bluff to [insert certain condition] = Not usable for Day Job roll.

Again, you are not making a skill check. You are making a Day Job roll.

And again, why is this a big deal?

Silver Crusade 3/5

"Seriously, though, why is it such a big deal?"

The deal is the mask of stony demeanor is disgned to help the person wearing get a +10 to bluff when lying which becomes very usable when smuggling. The mask could be used for feint but has less of a bonus since I guess the rest of the body's movement can be read (not like the face which hides that stony poker face behind it). The mask could be used for secret messages but that gives a -5 which actually hurts your bluff but is understandable since it doesn't cover your fingers when you are passing those secret messages (guess thats where sleight of hand might do better).

Silver Crusade 2/5

poundpuppy30 wrote:

"Yes, but while I'm there, your supplier who isn't really on the up and up comes up to you, and you try to pass him a secret message without me knowing. Your day job is not about one single transaction but an abstract roll reflecting your business as a whole. It is simply "I have a good week" or "I have a bad week" or "Eh, it was alright". "

If I dont have a mask of stony demeanor would I only be required to roll 1 bluff check for my day job roll because according to you I would have to also roll a dc for the secret message example above.

Lets say you have a player who has the caravan vanity and they do the bluff part Sior will you be making them roll a dc for secret message also? Will you be making them do a feint also? If you answer no to both of these being required for the day job roll then why would you be asking that same player who buys that mask of stony demeanor the next scenario to do feint and dc for secret messages?

Triomegazero show me where a player has to do feint or secret message dc checks along with their bluff checks for their day job roll in the rules?

With or without the Mask, you are only making ONE day job check. It uses your bluff skill bonus because that is how day job checks work. It is not any particular kind of use of bluff; it is NOT a bluff check. It is a day job check. It does not include bonuses for lying. It does not include penalties for passing a secret message. It just uses the main bluff skill bonus.

Sovereign Court 4/5

poundpuppy30 wrote:

"Seriously, though, why is it such a big deal?"

The deal is the mask of stony demeanor is disgned to help the person wearing get a +10 to bluff when lying which becomes very usable when smuggling. The mask could be used for feint but has less of a bonus since I guess the rest of the body's movement can be read (not like the face which hides that stony poker face behind it). The mask could be used for secret messages but that gives a -5 which actually hurts your bluff but is understandable since it doesn't cover your fingers when you are passing those secret messages (guess thats where sleight of hand might do better).

That... answers absolutely nothing. We all know what it does, and it has been said time and time again (from a dev, no less) that the mask cannot be used in Day Job checks.

As there is no cause, apparently, I'm dropping this and going to bed.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Please tell me when that same merchant example above is going to use feint with his bluff and please don't say when he's running from the guards and dodging with his smuggled items. You can be a merchant, bluff behind a counter and never have to pass secret messages or feint in combat. Don't see why feint and passing secret messages are being required in this to begin with or has no one ever heard of corrupt people who are just good at lying and don't have to feint since they aren't in combat each time they are doing their job or pass secret messages.

Paizo Employee 4/5 Developer

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TriOmegaZero wrote:
poundpuppy30 wrote:
Yet if I go and purchase a mask of stony demeanor and wear it for that same type of day job people expect me to feint and pass secret messages which both of these weren't required when I didn't own the mask.
No we don't. It was an example of how getting that granular just opens the door to arguments and problems for no real benefit.

This.

Poundpuppy, I noted above that a player dedicated to achieving a particular result is almost certainly able to make a sound argument in favor of the outcome he or she desires. You're arguing very hard over this, and I'm getting the impression that there's little that I or any of the others who have commented here can say to dissuade you.

I have answered your question, listened to clarification of a rebuttal, and provided a response. Is there anything else for us to discuss?

3/5 5/5

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Shorter this thread:

OP: Can I do X?

Everyone: No, X is against the rules.

OP: But why?

Everyone: (Various reasons)

OP: But why?

Everyone: (Further explanations)

OP: But why?

Seriously, dude, you've been told by the Guy In Charge for PFSOP at Paizo that the rule is a certain way, and why it is that way, and that he doesn't intend to change it. You're coming off as just repeating yourself over and over at this point. This is the way it is, the rules don't always make sense from a simulationist point of view, so try to see it from the point of view of people who need to adjudicate a world-wide game campaign with thousands upon thousands of GMs and players.

Edit: changed my wording to be less jerk-sounding.

Silver Crusade 3/5

I already said I understand the mask of stony demeanor is ruled as not being able to be used for day job rolls Sior. What I'm showing is that from a logical point of view it should be since it fits that kind of a day job roll fully. I already said I understand what John ruled above.

We then started talking about the masks uses, the way bluff is broken down, how a person uses bluff in day job rolls even if they dont wear this type of mask or if they do.

You asked for an example of what type of merchant only needs to use lie at his business and I gave one and then showed you that he doesn't need to feint or pass secret messages.

The best arguement is the person talks like robo cop and that would make anyone be hesitant to believing whats coming out of that persons mouth unless (reaches over and grabs his Advance Race Guide book and opens it to page 144) they already might talk a little like that to begin with or can see them talking like that as an Oread. Stony people wearing a stony mask and talking like that might seem a bit more believable.

>>>>> Again we have already agreed John said the mask isn't allowed for day job rolls<<<<<<

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