I mean there are plenty of 3rd party publishers doing it. Not sure how hard it is to get permission to sell a PDF in the Paizo store exactly, but quite a few of the 3rd party stuff is, well, not very well written, so the requirements cant be very high...
I'm almost certainly going to try it.
Question wrote: I mean there are plenty of 3rd party publishers doing it. Not sure how hard it is to get permission to sell a PDF in the Paizo store exactly, but quite a few of the 3rd party stuff is, well, not very well written, so the requirements cant be very high... And then there's that stuff Paizo puts out ;)
That being said, I've considered looking into becoming a 3rd party publisher myself. My problem is most of my design is so heavy-handed and changes the game so much, I'd basically be publishing a large pamphlet alternate CRB rather than more a more traditional 3PP supplement.
I've considered it. Especially once I get my campaign world fleshed all the way out. I've got my own character class, creatures, templates, items, etc. It's just getting everything organized, balanced, and finished takes a lot of work.
Plenty of 3PP's start down here in Homebrew. I know I did. You need to check out the Compatibility license for a start. I can link you to it and some good threads on self publishing in a little bit...on phone now.
Please do, Owolf. I know I'd certainly appreciate it.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I have thought about it, but a lot of the stuff I use is updated 3rd edition stuff, and I don't think WotC would look too kindly on my "publishing" of that.
You should also check out how to publish on DriveThruRPG, which has 100s of publishers of all sizes.
You can see what others have offered, what formats they use, and so on. From my first impression, it seemed to be easier to set up with them as a 3pp than with Paizo. In any case, it's worth comparing the two. You may want to set up with both!
wackyanne wrote: You should also check out how to publish on DriveThruRPG, which has 100s of publishers of all sizes.
You can see what others have offered, what formats they use, and so on. From my first impression, it seemed to be easier to set up with them as a 3pp than with Paizo. In any case, it's worth comparing the two. You may want to set up with both!
You definitely want to set up with both - some folk only buy here, and regardless you have to send a digital copy of each product to Liz Courts here as part of the Compatibility license.
Also, Paizo takes a less hefty cut. Also check out the d20PFSRDStore.
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Oceanshieldwolf wrote: Plenty of 3PP's start down here in Homebrew. I know I did. You need to check out the Compatibility license for a start. I can link you to it and some good threads on self publishing in a little bit...on phone now. Ok - here is the link to the Compatibility License...
And some threads of interest:
Some Questions about Third Party Publishing
Section 15 OGL and Exhibit B items
Open Game content Usage question
Question wrote: I mean there are plenty of 3rd party publishers doing it. Not sure how hard it is to get permission to sell a PDF in the Paizo store exactly, but quite a few of the 3rd party stuff is, well, not very well written, so the requirements cant be very high... A) If that's why you want to do it, I suggest you rather don't.
B) I got the impression that 3PP material for PF is quite high quality overall. This feeling seems a holdover from the 3.0/3.5 3pp glut...
Thanks for the links. All the legal stuff is a huge headache...im guessing theres no easy template to follow...
The other threads are really confusing so im hoping someone here might know about the following :
-Are you allowed to have modified paizo rules in your PDF? E.G. Longsword that does 1d10 damage or a feat that is the same but modified.
-Are you allowed to modify and release other 3rd party rules? With/without changing the name or making any changes to the rules? What if it turns out that two or more 3rd parties had a really similar idea (could be a spell, a feat, something basic)?
-Are there any restrictions on formatting, etc, besides not copying a paizo book, etc?
-How easy is it to get erratas in place, for example is there a way to let all the purchasers of a PDF know when a more up to date version is out?
I was wondering if it would be possible to put together a small PDF, no fancy drawings or anything, mostly some rules in a simple and clear easy to understand format. Or would people just go "boo!"?
Question wrote: I was wondering if it would be possible to put together a small PDF, no fancy drawings or anything, mostly some rules in a simple and clear easy to understand format. Or would people just go "boo!"? This I can comment on: I've seen a dozen of those sort of PDFs and I've only just started looking at the material that's out there. I can't say how well they sell, but they are available and some have even gotten fairly high praise in reviews.
I should think about it if only so I can then rationalize spending more time on my design hobbies.
Thanael wrote: Question wrote: I mean there are plenty of 3rd party publishers doing it. Not sure how hard it is to get permission to sell a PDF in the Paizo store exactly, but quite a few of the 3rd party stuff is, well, not very well written, so the requirements cant be very high... A) If that's why you want to do it, I suggest you rather don't.
B) I got the impression that 3PP material for PF is quite high quality overall. This feeling seems a holdover from the 3.0/3.5 3pp glut... Much of the Pathfinder 3PP material, particularly from the main 3pps, is extremely well-written and quite arguably as good as what Paizo puts out. The "quite a few of the 3rd party stuff is, well, not very well written" comment was rather uninformed and, quite honestly, a pretty rude.
I frankly think that a lot of the 3rd party stuff on D20 pfsrd is pretty poorly balanced. This is expected to an extent because they don't have the same kind of playtesting resources that Paizo does, but I am usually super apprehensive about letting third party stuff into my game as I am often uncertain how strong of a grasp certain developers have on the inner workings of the game. I like Dreamscar Press, though. They make the unapologetically crazy bullshit that I liked at the back end of the 3.5 cycle and generally do a pretty decent job at it, all things considered. There are a TON of moving parts in their books, after all, and a slight degeneration in balance is just the price to be paid for ambition.
Excaliburproxy wrote: I frankly think that a lot of the 3rd party stuff on D20 pfsrd is pretty poorly balanced. This is expected to an extent because they don't have the same kind of playtesting resources that Paizo does, Honestly, most of the 3pp stuff is far more balanced than what Paizo puts out. I dare you to find a single product more poorly balanced than the core rule book. Seriously.
On the topic (note: This is all my understanding of how it works, I am not a lawyer nor a 3pp, if someone who is tells you differently, believe them.):
Quote: -Are you allowed to have modified paizo rules in your PDF? E.G. Longsword that does 1d10 damage or a feat that is the same but modified. Certainly, it isn't as though Paizo owns the word "longsword" after all. And I know there's at least one kickstarter that is currently in the process of finalizing their replacement magic system.
But if you publish something like a d10 damage long sword, people will point at your product as an example of a poorly balanced product and you will fail to gain even a small foot hold. Putting out options that are strictly better than Paizo options is one way to kill your business just as suredly as if you were publishing with no grasp of the English language. Unless the whole point is to upgrade what you're doing, like say the Talented Class line. (This is all assuming, of course, that you're not copying anything, which the rest of my answer will continue to assume.)
Quote: -Are you allowed to modify and release other 3rd party rules? With/without changing the name or making any changes to the rules? What if it turns out that two or more 3rd parties had a really similar idea (could be a spell, a feat, something basic)? Now, this is something I don't know. Taking someone else's rules and re-releasing them in a large scale, well that's not good. But also, why would you. Quite frankly, if you put out a book modifying, say Rogue Genius Games's rules, why on earth would I buy your product when I can get the original rules from a source I know and trust. And if it was from a source I didn't know and trust, then why would I want to buy your take on their rules to begin with?
You'd be much better off coming up with your own ideas and putting out original work rather than seeing how much you can get away with.
And it isn't uncommon for 3pp to have similar ideas. For example I believe there are 2 somewhat similar books on covenant style magic from different publishers. As long as your idea is your own and not stolen, you will be fine.
Quote: -Are there any restrictions on formatting, etc, besides not copying a paizo book, etc? Here I'd really, really like to know exactly what you're asking. Are you saying you want to publish in 4 columns instead of 2, and are wondering if that's allowed?
Quote: -How easy is it to get erratas in place, for example is there a way to let all the purchasers of a PDF know when a more up to date version is out? I get e-mails every so often when a product is updated. I don't know if it is every product or if they're from paizo, the publisher, or rpgnow, (I've long since directed all of them to my spam folder, I don't need to know that one word was changed on a product I haven't looked at in 6 months) but I do know it is done.
Quote: I was wondering if it would be possible to put together a small PDF, no fancy drawings or anything, mostly some rules in a simple and clear easy to understand format. Or would people just go "boo!"? Sure. Minotaur games is an excellent example of this. You're just going to have to be good at it. If all you offer is words on a page, there's nothing to distract anyone from the words you put on the page, make good use of them.
Fair enough, but I wasn't really talking about just anything on the D20 pfsrd. I was mainly referring to the professionally written, developed and playtested material from actual companies like Rogue Genius, Rite Publishing, Kobold Press, Raging Swan, Dreamscarred etc.
Much of the material from companies like them are every bit as well-written, playtested and balanced as Paizo material. Heck, many of these companies are run by, and work with, folks that have worked for Paizo!
Excaliburproxy wrote: I frankly think that a lot of the 3rd party stuff on D20 pfsrd is pretty poorly balanced. This is expected to an extent because they don't have the same kind of playtesting resources that Paizo does, but I am usually super apprehensive about letting third party stuff into my game as I am often uncertain how strong of a grasp certain developers have on the inner workings of the game. I like Dreamscar Press, though. They make the unapologetically crazy b&$%$*~# that I liked at the back end of the 3.5 cycle and generally do a pretty decent job at it, all things considered. There are a TON of moving parts in their books, after all, and a slight degeneration in balance is just the price to be paid for ambition. Lets be honest here. Everybody has different desires out of the game.
Related to how I see the way the game should be, Jason Bulmahn(sp?), SKR, Monte Cook, etc have a pretty poor grasp on 'the inner workings' of the game. (Granted, the truth is that they have a great grasp of it, they just... direct it in a different way than I feel it should go.)
Marc Radle wrote: Fair enough, but I wasn't really talking about just anything on the D20 pfsrd. I was mainly referring to the professionally written, developed and playtested material from actual companies like Rogue Genius, Rite Publishing, Kobold Press, Raging Swan, Dreamscarred etc.
Much of the material from companies like them are every bit as well-written, playtested and balanced as Paizo material. Heck, many of these companies are run by, and work with, folks that have worked for Paizo!
A lot of pfsrd stuff IS from these publishers we discuss.
@all: Well, we can talk about spellcaster and martial balance until the cows come home, but I am mostly talking about the introduction of new class that are not comparable in power to other similar classes already present in the game.
I take people's point, though. To a certain extent, these discrepancies could be attributed to different philosophies on what place different roles SHOULD have in the game versus what the strengths and places of those roles have been historically.
Marc Radle wrote: Thanael wrote: Question wrote: I mean there are plenty of 3rd party publishers doing it. Not sure how hard it is to get permission to sell a PDF in the Paizo store exactly, but quite a few of the 3rd party stuff is, well, not very well written, so the requirements cant be very high... A) If that's why you want to do it, I suggest you rather don't.
B) I got the impression that 3PP material for PF is quite high quality overall. This feeling seems a holdover from the 3.0/3.5 3pp glut... Much of the Pathfinder 3PP material, particularly from the main 3pps, is extremely well-written and quite arguably as good as what Paizo puts out. The "quite a few of the 3rd party stuff is, well, not very well written" comment was rather uninformed and, quite honestly, a pretty rude. I disagree, but thats because ive looked at several PDFs which had very badly written rules. One for example included a feat that was basically that of a core feat, except with a much higher level requirement and a significant disadvantage.
The author then proceeds to go on about how powerful this feat and how he had to carefully balance it as if the core game doesnt have existing rules for it already. It would have taken only a few minutes to search the SRD and find that oh hey theres something like this in the core rules already, but he didn't do that.
And the 3rd party stuff on d20pfsrd is full of very badly written rules. These range from imbalanced options to stuff only written using the rule of cool and which have rules that dont work out in real gaming situations.
Of course theres a lot of well written 3rd party stuff there and a lot of badly written paizo stuff (see the incomplete rules for the ice tomb hex that took more than 2 years to get an errata), but that doesnt change the fact that theres some 3rd party stuff out there that is badly written.
Quote: Certainly, it isn't as though Paizo owns the word "longsword" after all. And I know there's at least one kickstarter that is currently in the process of finalizing their replacement magic system.
But if you publish something like a d10 damage long sword, people will point at your product as an example of a poorly balanced product and you will fail to gain even a small foot hold. Putting out options that are strictly better than Paizo options is one way to kill your business just as suredly as if you were publishing with no grasp of the English language. Unless the whole point is to upgrade what you're doing, like say the Talented Class line. (This is all assuming, of course, that you're not copying anything, which the rest of my answer will continue to assume.)
I was thinking more along the lines of "This paizo feat is so bad that nobody actually uses it without house ruling, so heres a house ruled version of it to make it playable". Kind of like what the replacement crafting rules PDF did.
Quote: Now, this is something I don't know. Taking someone else's rules and re-releasing them in a large scale, well that's not good. But also, why would you. Quite frankly, if you put out a book modifying, say Rogue Genius Games's rules, why on earth would I buy your product when I can get the original rules from a source I know and trust. And if it was from a source I didn't know and trust, then why would I want to buy your take on their rules to begin with?
You'd be much better off coming up with your own ideas and putting out original work rather than seeing how much you can get away with.
And it isn't uncommon for 3pp to have similar ideas. For example I believe there are 2 somewhat similar books on covenant style magic from different publishers. As long as your idea is your own and not stolen, you will be fine.
Well lets say someone has released a spell that is basically fireball but does cold damage. Im pretty sure there are plenty versions of that out there already. And i release something very similar, maybe because im releasing a themed spell list or whatever. Would there be any problems with this?
Quote: Here I'd really, really like to know exactly what you're asking. Are you saying you want to publish in 4 columns instead of 2, and are wondering if that's allowed? More along the lines of, do i need a contents page, do i have to stick to a particular format when writing rules, etc....
@Question: you can also direct questions to Liz Courts - consignments@paizo.com...
Here are my thoughts on your past three questions:
* By all means create alternate versions of official Paizo rules. Just highlight that this is what you are doing.
* As long as you aren't just reprinting someone else's stuff without referencing it in your Section 15 the you can make something similar to another item/feat/spell/ability - there are after all many ways to skin a cat. Note: If you use the same exact name you are likely to a: cause confusion and possibly run the risk of b: creating bad blood.
* There are no formal "rules" for layout. Do what you think will look good and be user friendly. If the product is a PDF then bookmarking helps in large pagecount products.
Following Paizo format for spells/abilities/feats etc will encourage your readers tothink you have a command of the ruleset. If you are comfortable with deviating then go for it.
I look forward to seeing you publish content that avoids the pitfalls you mention.
Recent threads in Homebrew and House Rules
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