Darksol the Painbringer |
I have a RAW question that pertains to actions I can perform during a given combat.
So let's say I am a Barbarian with Pounce who multiclasses into Ranger with a Hunter's Bond that allows me to give some of my Favored Enemy bonuses to my party members as a Move Action. This restricts me to having a Standard Action left. Assuming I pre-buffed and have Haste active, I want to ready a Standard Action to Charge (random creature in movement distance) when he takes any action, (or if it has to be specific, when he moves or casts a spell,) allowing me to Pounce and get a Full Attack on the creature.
My question is can I do that by the rules? I'm not really too sure on the matter.
Cult of Vorg |
Standard action charge is supposed to be restricted to the surprise round, being restricted to a standard action is not the same as having a standard remaining after using your move action. However, unless it's been errata'd, this abuse may be technically RAW, as PF lost the partial charge definition from 3.5..
Thymus Vulgaris |
I don't know about the 3.5 version, but I'd say the PF rules are pretty clear.
f you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Off the top of my head that means you can only do this on a surprise round or when staggered.
Darksol the Painbringer |
The only time you can charge as a standard action is when your entire turn is limited to a standard action. Burning off your move action and then saying "I only have a standard action left, so I use that to charge" doesn't count.
I suppose it's best to examine the intent of the bolded part in relation to readied actions. Let's take the Pounce element out and do a different subject.
Let's say I have Vital Strike, and instead of the Move Action for Favored Enemy Benefits, I take a Move Action to get in melee reach of (random creature), and ready a Vital Strike when they cast a spell. Seems fairly simple, and hardly abusive, no?
So when it gets to his turn, he goes to cast the spell; then my initiative changes to be right before his, and my readied action occurs, and for simplicity purposes, I end up interrupting the spell being cast.
Here's this clause for the consequence of Readied Actions:
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action.
As far as I can tell from the terms of intent, you count as acting on that initiative result. With the restrictions posed from Readied Actions, in that you can only ready a single Standard/Move/Swift/Free Action, determined at the original initiative you chose to ready said action.
I'd also like to point out the clause of Delaying, which functions very similar (if not identical) to Readying.
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the delayed action.
So let's compare and contrast both Delaying and Readying;
When one delays, they wait for creatures X, Y, and Z to take their turns and see the result of what happens before they can take their entire turn of actions.
When one readies, they wait for creature X to perform a specific action on their turn, and then take the action that they readied, which is limited to being either a single Standard/Move/Swift/Free Action.
In both events, they wait for a specific amount of time and/or specific actions to occur before their activities take place. At that point, they get to take their actions as if they were at that point in the initiative counter.
In contrast, one is allowed a full round's worth of actions, whereas the other is quite limited in its scope, determined at the time of which they readied.
**EDIT** @ Claxon: So if I didn't bother with the Move Action for Favored Enemy stuff via Hunter's Bond, I could Pounce as a Readied Standard Action? How is that different from not activating it?
Thymus Vulgaris |
You can't charge as a readied action if you had a full round to spend. I suppose you could in the surprise round or if you're staggered (or otherwise limited to a single standard action each round), but otherwise just delay your turn.
If you take a move action and then ready an action, what you're effectively doing is delaying only part of your turn. Since you already took a move action in the first half of your turn, you can't charge with your readied action.
Darksol the Painbringer |
You can't charge as a readied action if you had a full round to spend. I suppose you could in the surprise round or if you're staggered (or otherwise limited to a single standard action each round), but otherwise just delay your turn.
If you take a move action and then ready an action, what you're effectively doing is delaying only part of your turn. Since you already took a move action in the first half of your turn, you can't charge with your readied action.
If I delayed to Vital Strike a spell being cast (when I used a Move Action previously), I could not use the damage dealt with that Vital Strike to interrupt the concentration check she would use for casting defensively, because my turn would actually occur before or after the spell is cast, not during, like this clause of the Readied Actions section would state:
You can ready an attack against a spellcaster with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell.” If you damage the spellcaster, she may lose the spell she was trying to cast (as determined by her Spellcraft check result).
Such language is absent from delaying, meaning that is a very key difference between delaying your turn and readying a single action type. If you wanted to get real technical with the RAW, I couldn't even use Vital Strike, since that only works with Attack Actions, not Readied Actions. But I doubt that's the intent of the Readied Action rules.
There is also this citation:
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.
So let's say I take my Move Action. I could then ready to Pounce on (random creature), and it would only work as a Standard Action, since it occurs after the turn in which I would have a full round of actions. When I take that action, my initiative order changes to right before (random creature)'s, and I act on that initiative order with the readied action.
Since that then becomes my (following) turn, I only have a Standard Action to take via the Readied Action, in which case I could then Pounce as said Standard Action.
Claxon |
Look, are you here to get an answer, or to get the answer and justification you want?
Charge
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
You can't take a 5-foot step in the same round as a charge.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can't ready a full-round action. Charges are full round actions. You're only allowed to charge as a standard if you are restricted to only taking a standard action for that entire round.
In any turn where you would ready an action and you would have had access to a full round action you cannot spend a move and ready a charge as a standard action to try to skirt around the rules that say charge is normally a full round action. You are attempting to cheat the system.
Darksol the Painbringer |
@ Claxon: Take a chill pill, there's nothing wrong with debating. What I want and what the RAW says are two completely separate things; whether they're mutually exclusive is in essence the question. I'd also like to clarify that the rules stating "on your turn" versus your statement of "the entire round" are different meanings, of which your interpretation isn't the RAW.
If anything, this could be resolved with a much more simplified question. A Readied Action adjusts your initiative when you take it, and any future turns in a given combat round occur at that initiative order.
The crux of the issue stems from these 2 things:
1. Does a Readied Action constitute as a restriction of "being able to take only a Standard Action on your turn"?
If it doesn't, then it's not eligible for readying period.
2. And if it does, would the activity take place in your turn at the (soon to be) adjusted initiative, or is it part of the turn in which you designate the Readied Action?
I mean, if it's the latter, then obviously I cannot Charge as a Standard, no questions asked, case closed.
If it's the former, then the "restricted to taking a Standard Action" clause for Charging would apply, and in which case I could then Ready a Standard-Action Pounce.
Claxon |
What do I need to chill from? Calling you out for an attempt to cheat the system.
It seems clear that the rules did not intend for you to get extra use of the ready action ability to use a move action and then ready a charge action. If it was intended why say that charge is a full round action at all. This would have been something that people could have done day one from the CRB. But it seems clear that this wasn't intended. The allowance for charging to be done when restricted to a standard only was so that people could move and attack in a surprise round and so that zombies could move and attack in the same round.
Thymus Vulgaris |
It seems to me you see readying an action as if it gives you two half turns. You don't. You have one turn, but it is split in two.
J: I spend a move action to draw an alchemist's fire from my handy haversack and ready an action to throw it at M when he's 15 ft away.
K: *K's turn*
L: *L's turn*
M: *moves within specified range*
J: *interrupts, throws alchemist's fire, initiative moves to right before M*
M: *finishes the rest of his turn*
Q: How many turns has J had this round?
A: One. He simply postponed* his standard action.
*This is the word I should've used before when I likened readying an action to "delaying" part of your turn. I didn't want to use the word for another game term, but no alternatives came to mind.
Claxon |
Prerequisites: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, base attack bonus +5.Benefit: You may ready a charge, though you may only move up to your speed on the charge.
Normal: Charging is a full-round action and allows you to move twice your speed.
Perfect, this makes it quite clear that what was being proposed is quite illegal, unless you happen to take this feat.