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Bro you claimed "rogue can't do more damage than a bard plus a martial"
Of course not-- one character not being able to do more damage than TWO characters just makes and of course that's not a fair comparison.
You keep saying how much more damage the bard is causing to happen without ever showing how or how much-- you're the one who keeps claiming that the numbers are on your side, so yes, asking you to show those numbers is logical, fair, and necessary to have a discussion in good faith.
You have posited a theory "bard does more damage" and a second theory "bard+martial does more damage" it is YOUR responsibility to show the evidence if you want to "prove" how bad rogue is.
But you won't provide any support other than repeating that you are right.
It isn't that bard + martial does more damage. It's that bard + the extra damage bard buffs the martial to do (which includes higher damage from hitting more often) does more damage than rogue. Haste, Inspire Courage, Discordant Voice, etc... add up fast.
In any case, damage output is probably the area bard obsoletes rogue in the least. With Versatile Performance, bard flat out has more skill points, and spells provide far more utility beyond what rogue is capable of (including huge skill buffs / supplements like Charm Person, Sift, and Glibness). Good Will and defensive spells mean bard has better defenses, too.
I'm counting 81 DPR (+Str damage) off that rogue build-- so where is the Bard who does more than 81 DRP at 10th level?
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I made two claims...
1) A Bard by himself, does more damage than a Rogue by himself.
2) A party benefits much more from Bard than from a Rogue.
I'm not sure, what you want... Do you want me to build the Rogue?
Let's see... Save for Sneak Attack, a Rogue has the exact same damage as a Bard. And the same AC.
However, when alone, he can't flank. So he can't reliably use Sneak Attack, since feinting kills his action economy and often amounts to little more than a +2 or +3 to hit, since most creatures rely more on armor and/or natural armor than Dex for AC.
When fighting with his friends, all the Rogue offers are the occasional extra d6, which he's unlikely to get more often than once, maybe twice, a round (if that).
Can't flank? Too bad. No SA. Ally was grappled? Well, that's his problem. He failed a save and is now dominated? Let's hope the Cleric is paying attention. Enemy is invisible? Let's pray someone can pinpoint his exact location so we have a chance to attack (without Sneak attack, though).
Rogues depend on their allies just to be noticeable. In exchage, what do they bring to the party? Trapfinding and the occasional extra d6.
The Bard, OTOH, when alone, can still count on his spells and Bardic Performance. And by 6th level, he has just as many trained skills as a Rogue. He also has an increasingly superior chance to make those all-too-important will saves.
And when he's with his friends, he really, freaking shines. Everyone gets Haste and a free +2 to attack, damage and saving throws. Or maybe he casts Dimension Door so the Fighter can full attack.
Your ally got grappled? No problem. Bard casts Liberating Command as an immediate action. You ally failed a save despite Inspire Courage? Don't worry, saving finale will him him a 2nd chance. An invisible enemy? Glitterdust will reveal his position.
Bards bring all sorts of tools to the party, and are still quite independent when they have to be.
I made two claims...
1) A Bard by himself, does more damage than a Rogue by himself.
2) A party benefits much more from Bard than from a Rogue.
The rogue is up there.
I want you to supply a Bard who does more DPR than 81
I am missing the rogue. Can somebody post the build here? I would liek to see all numbers.
It is not just about DPR, but saves, AC and skills (and whatever extra the classes have)
I made two claims...
1) A Bard by himself, does more damage than a Rogue by himself.
2) A party benefits much more from Bard than from a Rogue.
The rogue is up there.
I want you to supply a Bard who does more DPR than 81
With his party or without? How is the Rogue getting Sneak Attack damage on all attacks, BTW?
Just to be completely certain we know which Rogue you're talking about going forward
Yes; use that rogue, it seems pretty fair-- not overly skewed towards doing only one thing, if anything more of its resources have been put into AC than damage.
Oh, and BTW... While flanking, that Rogue has a DPR of 54.50 (against AC 24. Average AC for CR 10 creatures). I'm not sure how you're getting 81.
Oh, and BTW... While flanking, that Rogue has a DPR of 54.50. I'm not sure how you're getting 81.
Just post the bard. Show it. I don't frequent the DPR boards or do optimization builds, so sure, use 54.5 and show me the Bard that does more.
Just show your build that you keep saying is so much superior.
Oh, and BTW... While flanking, that Rogue has a DPR of 54.50. I'm not sure how you're getting 81.Just post the bard. Show it. I don't frequent the DPR boards or do optimization builds, so sure, use 54.5 and show me the Bard that does more.
Just show your build that you keep saying is so much superior.
Working on it. Need to do skills and I have no clue what to put for feats. I don't make bards too often but her DPR is already topping the Rogue.
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Oh, and BTW... While flanking, that Rogue has a DPR of 54.50. I'm not sure how you're getting 81.Just post the bard. Show it. I don't frequent the DPR boards or do optimization builds, so sure, use 54.5 and show me the Bard that does more.
Just show your build that you keep saying is so much superior.
wow...
such anger...
much denial...
great aggitation...
wow.
Oh, and BTW... While flanking, that Rogue has a DPR of 54.50. I'm not sure how you're getting 81.Just post the bard. Show it. I don't frequent the DPR boards or do optimization builds, so sure, use 54.5 and show me the Bard that does more.
Just show your build that you keep saying is so much superior.
wow...
such anger...
much denial...
great aggitation...
wow.
I've been asking to see the math for like 4 hours now and it has yet to be shown.
Yes, I get agitated at that kind of argument where invisible proof is repeatedly cited.
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People, ther eis no need for hostility. Just post the numbers.
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Oh, and BTW... While flanking, that Rogue has a DPR of 54.50 (against AC 24. Average AC for CR 10 creatures). I'm not sure how you're getting 81.He got 81 by getting the average damage if everything hit.
Yeah, and he was proven wrong. lets move on.
** spoiler omitted **There you go, human bard, just over half gold spent. Dealing more than 81 DPR
Vs 25 AC
Adaptive Shortbow +2
22/22/22/17 (19-20/x3)
1d6+13 (2d6 + 26) = 84.15 dpr
And you're factoring the 1-3 rounds before you begin making attacks at the start of combat?
And you're factoring the 1-3 rounds before you begin making attacks at the start of combat?
** spoiler omitted **There you go, human bard, just over half gold spent. Dealing more than 81 DPR
Vs 25 AC
Adaptive Shortbow +2
22/22/22/17 (19-20/x3)
1d6+13 (2d6 + 26) = 84.15 dpr
Take also into account that the rogue does not have guaranteed the sneak attacks, that pretty much balance it.
Take a deep breath, Nathaniel. And read very carefully what I said.
1) A Bard by himself, does more damage than a Rogue by himself.
2) A party benefits much more from Bard than from a Rogue.
Let's take care of #1 first.
By himself, that Rogue is getting a DPR of... 17,24. Well, that's... not impressive. (and he relies on a particularly rare item: An Agile AoMF. I wonder how well he fares until he finally finds one of those...)
A Bard who is by himself would probably be under effect of Heroism (since that lasts a whooping 100 minutes and all it costs him is a 2nd level spell slot, which he has 5 of. That's over 8h of Heroism if he wants), thus getting a +2 on attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws.
Male Half-Elf Bard 10
NG Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 16, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2 shield, +6 Dex)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +12, Ref +18, Will +12; +2 vs. enchantments, +4 vs. bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependant effects
Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +2 agile rapier +18/+13 (1d6+11/18-20)
Special Attacks bardic performance 25 rounds/day (move action; countersong, dirge of doom, distraction, fascinate, inspire competence +3, inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, suggestion)
Bard Spells Known (CL 10th; concentration +13):
4th (1/day)—dimension door, heroic finale (DC 17)
3rd (4/day)—dispel magic, haste, phantom steed, purging finale (DC 16)
2nd (5/day)—bladed dash, glitterdust (DC 15), heroism, invisibility, silence (DC 15)
1st (6/day)—animate rope, grease (DC 14), liberating command, saving finale (DC 14), silent image (DC 14)
0 (at will)—detect magic, ghost sound (DC 13), mage hand, message, prestidigitation (DC 13), read magic
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 22, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +7; CMB +9; CMD 26
Feats Arcane Strike, Combat Reflexes, Defensive Combat Training, Skill Focus (Perform [oratory]), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (rapier)
Traits elven reflexes, resilient
Skills Acrobatics +21, Appraise +2, Bluff +18, Climb +2, Diplomacy +24, Disable Device +6, Disguise +18, Escape Artist +8, Fly +8, Handle Animal +18, Heal +2, Intimidate +18, Knowledge (arcana) +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (local) +11, Knowledge (nature) +11, Knowledge (planes) +11, Knowledge (religion) +11, Linguistics +8, Perception +17, Perform (act) +18, Perform (oratory) +24, Perform (percussion instruments) +18, Ride +8, Sense Motive +24, Sleight of Hand +8, Spellcraft +2, Stealth +21, Survival +2, Swim +2, Use Magic Device +9; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
Languages Celestial, Common, Draconic, Elven, Sylvan
SQ bardic knowledge +5, elf blood, jack of all trades (use any skill), lore master 1/day, versatile performance abilities (act, oratory, percussion)
Other Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +1 mithral buckler, +2 agile rapier, belt of physical might (dex & con +2), cloak of resistance +3, feather step slippers, headband of alluring charisma +2, 11,575 gp
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Knowledge +5 (Ex) Add +5 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (move action) (25 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Combat Reflexes (7 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Elf Blood Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Jack of All Trades: Trained skills (Ex) You may use all skills untrained.
Lore Master (1/day) (Ex) Take 10 on knowledge checks, and 1/day take 20 as a standard action.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Versatile Performance (Acting) +18 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Act skill for Bluff or Disguise checks
Versatile Performance (Oratory) +24 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Oratory skill for Diplomacy or Sense Motive checks
Versatile Performance (Percussion Instruments) +18 (Ex) You may substitute the final value of your Perform: Percussion Instruments skill for Handle Animal or Intimidate checks
Barry has a DPR of... 21.85. Higher than the Rogue... Who knew? Ah, right... We all did.
Note that Barry still has over 11k gp left and he's not particularly optimized for DPR either. He's even dueling, despite not being a Dawnflower Dervish...
Neither of them is very good on one-on-one combat, though, at it's expected. But Barry has far more options than any similarly built Rogue.
If we are talking about the times when the rest of the party is around (you know... 90% of the time). That'd be a more complex situation, so I'll leave it for a different post.
By the other hand I would like to see a melee bard. to compare apples to apples.
Most of those don't take a round to start, Heroism lasts 10 minutes/level(over an hour and a half at this point) so it runs an entire dungeon in one cast, haste the entire party should be waiting to start on.
The inspire courage is a swift action to enter so you'll lose arcane strike the first turn (3 damage per hit) and thats it.
Edit: Btw, to go into that, are you factoring in the turn where you can't full attack either?
If we're being nitpicky I might as well point out that the DPR assumptions on the cat rogue assumes all sneak attacks when the build, near as I can tell, has no way of getting full attack sneak attacks except flanking or external buffs like Greater Invisibility.
Heres my Melee Bard with a dip in Pathfinder Delver
Traits: Armor Expert, Anything else
FCB goes in Skill Points
Str:10
Dex:24(16 Base +2 Human, +2 Ability Increases, +4 Belt)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:16(14 Base +2 Headband)
Feats:
1: Weapon Finesse
Human Bonus: Arcane Strike
3: Dervish Dance
5: Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
Everything else is up in the air.
Gear:
+2 Scimitar(Gets treated as Keen)
Belt of Dexterity +4
Headband of Alluring Charisma +2
+1 Shadow Mithril chainshirt
+2 Buckler
Cloak of Resistance +3
Ring of Prot +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Trapspringer's Gloves
Eyes of the Eagle
Skills(72pts):
Add +2 to all her skills due to Heroism.
Acrobatics +20
Disable Device +25 (26 vs Traps, can take 10 to auto disable)
Escape Artist +20
Perception +18(+19 vs Traps)
Stealth +25 (10 Ranks, Class Skill +3, Competence Bonus from Shadow +5, +7 Dex
Kn.History +9
Perform(Dance) +8
(15 skill points remaining for social skills)
DEFENSES
HP: 68
AC: 27(29 during Battle Dance)
Touch: 18(20 during Battle Dance)
CMD: 25(27 during Battle Dance)
CMB: +6(+10 during Heroism and Battle Dance)
BAB: +6
Fort:+8(+10 Heroism) Ref:+17(+21 Rain of Blows, Heroism) Will:+9(+11 Heroism)
OFFENSES:
Buffs: Inspire Courage +2, Rain of Blows +2, Heroism
Attack Bonus: +22/+22/+17
Damage: 1d6+13 x2 Crit on a 15-20
Casts one spell for 90 minutes and has more than comparable DPR to the Rogue. Still has the entirety of the rest of her spells as well.
If we're being nitpicky I might as well point out that the DPR assumptions on the cat rogue assumes all sneak attacks when the build, near as I can tell, has no way of getting full attack sneak attacks except flanking or external buffs like Greater Invisibility.Most of those don't take a round to start, Heroism lasts 10 minutes/level(over an hour and a half at this point) so it runs an entire dungeon in one cast, haste the entire party should be waiting to start on.
The inspire courage is a swift action to enter so you'll lose arcane strike the first turn (3 damage per hit) and thats it.
Edit: Btw, to go into that, are you factoring in the turn where you can't full attack either?
If we're really being nitpicky, DPR isn't all that informative of a class' combat abilities besides the damage they do. I said it before and I'll say it again, DPR is the RBI of Pathfinder. It only tells me their production, instead of how they are reaching that level of production.
I understand that raw damage is supposed to be the rogue's thing, so seeing how performs in that regard is important to the debate. Even if the rogue had slightly higher DPR than the Bard, it still wouldn't necessarily be a superior class because that DPR number doesn't take into account the level of difficulty required for a character to position themselves to deal that damage.
Ok, How the AC, saves and skills of the classes compare? Who have more combat options in case just stand still and DPR is not avaliable?
Ok, How the AC, saves and skills of the classes compare? Who have more combat options in case just stand still and DPR is not avaliable?
Aeisha has better Saves and AC. She falls slightly behind in skills but can perform all the Trapfinding roles and is a better scout. She still has full 3rd level spell casting, spending her 2nd levels slots mostly on Heroism.
AC s basically the same... Before Bard spells, such as Haste, Invisibility, Blur, etc. Offensive Defense can actually give Rogues a good AC... Against one target... If they land their Sneak Attack. So... Not all that often...
A Bard's saves are flat out better even before we take spells in consideration.
that +6 from jon´s will save make me shiver.
Ok, does somebody ahve a better rogue build? Because I am pretty sure the rogeu have better builds, we need a scout/thug in this discussion (we already have a dervish dancer), hopefully one without hte sap adept chain.
so far anyone have a complain?
Actually, just taking the basic concept of the rogue build Nathanael referenced earlier (half-orc abusing racial heritage for claw attacks) and slapping Dawnflower Dervish on it would make for an interesting comparison.
I'm pretty sure there are better Bard builds too, Nicos.
But still...
Male Half-Orc (Mystic) Rogue (Scout, Thug) 10
N Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +15
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 16, flat-footed 17 (+6 armor, +5 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +11, Ref +17, Will +11
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile cestus +12/+7 (1d4+6/19-20) and
. . +2 agile cestus +13/+8 (1d4+7/19-20) and
. . bite +7 (1d4)
Special Attacks scout's charge, skirmisher, sneak attack +5d6
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 10th; concentration +10)
. . 3/day—Minor Magic (Detect Magic)
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Statistics
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Str 10, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +7; CMB +7; CMD 23
Feats Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Double Slice, Endurance, Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Feint, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (cestus)
Traits indomitable faith, tusked
Skills Acrobatics +18, Bluff +13, Diplomacy +13, Disable Device +18, Escape Artist +18, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +15, Perception +15, Sense Motive +15, Stealth +18, Use Magic Device +13; Racial Modifiers frightening
Languages Common, Draconic, Orc, Sylvan
SQ brutal beating, orc blood, rogue talents (combat trick, finesse rogue, minor magic [detect magic], offensive defense, weapon training), weapon familiarity
Other Gear +2 mithral chain shirt, +1 agile cestus, +2 agile cestus, belt of physical might (dex & con +2), cloak of resistance +4, feather step slippers, ring of protection +1, 290 gp
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Special Abilities
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Brutal Beating (5 rds) (Ex) Forgo 1d6 sneak attack damage to sicken the target for 5 rds.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Combat Reflexes (6 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Endurance (Shaman's Apprentice) +4 to a variety of fort saves, skill and ability checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Frightening (Ex) Demoralize duration increases by 1 rd, if 4+ rds can frighten 1 rd instead.
Minor Magic (Detect Magic) (3/day) (Sp) Gain the chosen cantrip as a spell-like ability.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Scout's Charge (Ex) Charge attacks deal sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Skirmisher (Ex) After move 10 ft, first attack deals sneak attack damage as though foe is flat-footed.
Sneak Attack +5d6 +5d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Two-Weapon Feint Forgo first melee attack to feint
EDIT: Tweaked it a little because I found a few mistakes (like accidentally placing the racial bonus on Str instead of Dex. -.-')
I'm not sure how good this guys is, though.
Look at that! It only cost him a trait, an alternate racial feature and 5 attribute points in a tertiary attribute for his saves to be almost as good as Barry's... Too bad those things don't scale with level like base save progression does.
I'm too lazy to make a full build, but IME the only viable rogue build at nearly all levels of play in PF (for combat) is one that goes ranged, dips Oracle for the ability to see through mist (Water Sight, Waves mystery), and then hides in Obscuring Mist delivering full attack sneak attacks every round (because anyone 10+ ft away can't see him, and 5 ft steps are a thing). Such a rogue would strive for a Seeking bow (to deal w/ other forms of concealment) and Sniper's Goggles ASAP.
You can use the Andoran PFS Field Guide trait for longbow proficiency, or just be a Half-Elf (Ancestral Arms) or Elf.
Also be sure to "abuse" the fact that a rogue can take Combat Trick *and* Ninja Trick (Combat Trick) to maximize feats.
Can't you go Ifrit and take the ability to see through smoke, and do the same thing with smokesticks? And that would be at 1st level.
I was trying to figure out if it was worth it to go Tiefling with Fiendsight x2 but I don't think it is.
Can't you go Ifrit and take the ability to see through smoke, and do the same thing with smokesticks? And that would be at 1st level.
I was trying to figure out if it was worth it to go Tiefling with Fiendsight x2 but I don't think it is.
Maybe, I wasn't aware of that ability, did ARG add it? Even if you do go with obscuring mist, you'd want smoke sticks as an alchemical power component to make the mist immune to being burned away with fire. So if a race can cut out the dip entirely, that'd be handy. Oracle dip is still sorta nice just for Dual-Cursed to get Misfortune and use it both on foes and to help the party.
DPR is by no means the only part of the game, but it looks like the Rogue got BTFO in that department too. Never mind the Bard's better defenses from Mirror Image, good Will save, et al. And the Bard has useful things he can be doing if melee combat just looks too dangerous.
Besides that, a bunch of people been arguing that the Rogue's "not meant to be a combat class"? Never mind that there is no rule saying a class has to be good at either combat or utility, but not both. A lot of classes aren't beholden to such a rule, and in any case, class should ever be.
You guys got it; I'm out-- rip the pages that say rogue out of your books if you want, its not an irrelevant class and there are reasons to play it.
No, no. Ripping out pages (or blackening them) is reserved for things like the "new" crane style line and the revised bloodrager spell-list.
Sorry, but I'm still not seeing the damage on some of these bard builds. .. I see 3 attacks at 1d6+13? How is that more than 3 attacks at 1d4+5d6+7?
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I don't want to see an alchemist build.
Show me the bard who does more damage than the rogue which is what I asked for.
And then show me Bard + 1 Martial compared to Rogue + that exact same martial to prove how superior Bard is in every way.
That's two things that people have asserted "math shows" but they have yet to post the math for these assertions.
I'm not "on" anything and please do not change the subject to personal insults in place of supporting your arguments with facts.
I did this. It's not a full build, but it's a math comparison. The Bard does more damage than the Rogue on his own vs. most targets, adding in the bonuses he gives to the Barbarian (more than 50 damage) more than equal the Rogue's bonus damage.
I'm counting 81 DPR (+Str damage) off that rogue build-- so where is the Bard who does more than 81 DRP at 10th level?
Uh...I'm not doing a whole build, but a Str 20 (including Belt for +2) Half-Orc Falchion-Bard with a +2 Courageous Weapon, Arcane Strike, and Power Attack, with Good Hope, Haste, and Performance going does three attacks at +18/+18/+13 for 2d4+23/18-20 per attack.
I don't do DPR a whole lot either, but ignoring criticals that's 56 DPR (I think it goes to around 63 with criticals), which is higher than the 54.5 other people are citing for the Rogue. It does require buffing, but not a whole heck of a lot, round-wise.
And that's off the top of my head, and not very optimized (Str would likely be higher). Other people have done it better with less buffing.
Sorry, but I'm still not seeing the damage on some of these bard builds. .. I see 3 attacks at 1d6+13? How is that more than 3 attacks at 1d4+5d6+7?
Because the Bard's to-hit is vastly higher, so he hits more often, and thus does more damage on average. I mean, if the Bard hits on three of those attacks on average while the Rogue hits on only one of his...
The archery Bard also manages four attacks with Haste.
I don´t know whats wrong with the math, but that rogue i post earlier has dpr 100+, if he dip 1 level in oracle wave he can sneak every round.
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I don´t know whats wrong with the math, but that rogue i post earlier has dpr 100+, if he dip 1 level in oracle wave he can sneak every round.
As long as he never runs into anyone with Dispel Magic. Also, he's using Haste...which while doable with an item, is a significant investment for a Rogue.
I don´t know whats wrong with the math, but that rogue i post earlier has dpr 100+, if he dip 1 level in oracle wave he can sneak every round.As long as he never runs into anyone with Dispel Magic. Also, he's using Haste...which while doable with an item, is a significant investment for a Rogue.
Yes, but still enough for the encounters of the day.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Take a deep breath, Nathaniel. And read very carefully what I said.
1) A Bard by himself, does more damage than a Rogue by himself.
2) A party benefits much more from Bard than from a Rogue.Let's take care of #1 first.
By himself, that Rogue is getting a DPR of... 17,24. Well, that's... not impressive. (and he relies on a particularly rare item: An Agile AoMF. I wonder how well he fares until he finally finds one of those...)
A Bard who is by himself would probably be under effect of Heroism (since that lasts a whooping 100 minutes and all it costs him is a 2nd level spell slot, which he has 5 of. That's over 8h of Heroism if he wants), thus getting a +2 on attack rolls, skill checks and saving throws.
** spoiler omitted **...
Wanted to point out, you lose some party buff versitility, but if you take archeologist and remove WF rapier for lingering performance and resiliant for fate's favoured, you're looking at a +3 or 4 to your own hit/damage/saves/skill checks every time you kick on luck as a swift action *and* it lasts for three rounds. so you lose arcane strike the first round, use it for two rounds, kick on luck in round four, then two more rounds of Arcane Strike...
Nathaniel... just give it up. You are seriously soundling like a desperate child grasping at straws... kinda like Nancy Pelosi.