You forgot the +3 from a class skill, but i agree, and the +10 dex seems absurd, considering everyone claims you need to be a strength rogue to be any good.
"My rogue can't do damage"
"Well yeah the only way to rogue is strength!"
"My rogue can't tumble"
"Well yeah the only way to rogue is high dex!"
Basically there needs to be a rogue/monk only feat that gives +10 to all stats =P.
Ok, I concede the point.
Actually, I'll add one positive: be forced to work in complete silence without losing any of their class' abilities.I guess. Though a Bard only loses their spell casting, not Performance (which need not be verbal).
That is why you don't use Silence, you use Antimagic Field.
Thats a problem for rogues since all this monsters environments are corridors
Thats a problem for rogues since all this monsters environments are corridors
3 mythic tiers would help (for vanishing move), provided no one else got mythic tiers.
I played in a session recently and saw a neat "fix" for the rogue in 3.5. They made up a race via PF rules that can occupy the same square with another of that race and are considered flanking.
So this player just plays 2 rogue characters that are always in the same square! Totally a functional member of the party.
Apart from writing 'rogue' on his character sheet?
I will not argue that the Rogue is an easier class to play than a Bard. It is definitely easier to play Bards, and a few other classes. But there ARE things a Rogue can do better than anyone else:
1. Traps: No one is better at getting around traps than a Trapsmith Rogue. PF APs don't use many traps, but in home games they can get pretty disgusting.
2. Poisons: The Poisoner Rogue is just as good at producing and using very nasty poisons as an Alchemist. The only thing that gives Alchemists a small edge with poisons is their Sticky Poisons discovery but since inhaled poisons are a better way to go, not that big a deal.
3. SA: No one does Sneak Attack better than a Rogue. The Viv Alchemist and Ninja are equally good but not better than a basic Rogue. And the Rogue Scout, Bandit, Knife Master, and Skulking Slayer are far better at Sneak Attack than the Viv Alchemist can be. An argument could be made for the Ninja with Invisible Blade, but Rogues can get Greater Invisibility too in a number of ways. In fact, anyone can.
4. CDG: With Sneak Attack and a few other options the Rogue is better at Coup De Graces than any other class. Not sure how many people the average Rogue these days has CDGd but I have killed quite a few high level NPCs in their sleep.
5. Being useful without spells per day: Personally, I don't care to rely so much on magic to be useful, but when a Rogue needs it they have UMD and a few other tricks. Also, a Rogue functions just fine in an Antimagic Field, which is not so easy for a Bard. They can function inside wild magic and dead magic zones.
6. Disarming: Weapon Snatcher plus a few feats. A Human Swashbuckler Rogue would be able to set this up pretty easily.
7. Feats: I would say second best behind Fighter at getting extra feats. Not all feat options are compatible with all builds, but the options are there.
8. Stealth: I suppose if we are talking about base classes, the Ranger is the best after lvl 17. However, I don't think there is much out there that could out Stealth a Chameleon with two, maybe three, HiPS Advanced Talents. Additionally, an Elf Rogue with the Major Magic Talent can get up to 11 uses of Vanish per day.
9. Survivability: A lot of people might scoff at this idea, but the Rogue class has a LOT of really nice survivability options available if you care enough to invest in them.
Maybe (though I disagree with a LOT of those), but you'll notice that all of those things are something only a single archetype can do.
So teh Rogue isn't really good at all of those things. He's good at ONE of those things in any given build.
Whereas a Trapper ranger, Archaeologist Bard, etc. is good at all the things he's good at and gain one of the things that's unique to him.
They're just all around better because they can do MORE.
Poisons, the main advantage an Alchemist has over the Rogue is how quickly he can manufacture them as well.
Actually...the Poisoner doesn't have ANY advantage over the Alchemist. They get Poison Use by default, and can change poisons the same way with Poison Conversion.
So that's everything the Poisoner does already.
Then throw in Celestial Poisons (can poison Undead and stuff), Concentrate Poison (2 for 1!), and all that, and yeah...
Oh and to add insult to injury, Poison Conversion only takes a minute (as compared to an hour), and has no chance of failure!
3. Ninjas and vivisecsinist get greater invisibility by sthemselve, without spending a single GP. Vivisecsinoist can also get several natural attacks for more SA. Not sure how can you argue in rogues favor here.
6. Are you just comparing against other 3/4 BAB? because full martial are just better here.
9. Please, talk more about this.
========
By the way, how many of those things can the rogue have at the same time (Aka, in the same build)?, because the other calsses are pretty good at several things at the same time.
1-8
1. Archaeologist bard.
2. Alchemist is just better at this. Hands down.3. I would say vanishing trick makes ninjas better.
4. SA doesn't crit. CDG auto crits. Just about any char with a great axe CDGs better. May be the one thing the rogue is better at than the bard.
5. So are bard. You can remove spell casting from bards and they would still be better than rogues.
6. That's a lot of investment. Doesn't work well against claws. Of course a bard archetype could still do this. Just not as soon. Rogue gets a point here.
7. Sorry Monk is better.
8. Major magic talent? Or alchemist with auto silent spells like invisibility, fly, and greater invisibility. Dem extracts.
9. Hahahaha no. They aren't good options.
Antimagic field is utterly deadly to rogues. They need their equipment to have pretty much any chance of aurviving against anything vaguely level appropriate. Turing all of that off murders them.That is why you don't use Silence, you use Antimagic Field.Actually, I'll add one positive: be forced to work in complete silence without losing any of their class' abilities.I guess. Though a Bard only loses their spell casting, not Performance (which need not be verbal).
That's funny, I survived just fine in Antimagic Fields when playing Rogues.
...
As to the other posts, there are a lot of them, I will get back to you all.
Apart from writing 'rogue' on his character sheet?I will not argue that the Rogue is an easier class to play than a Bard. It is definitely easier to play Bards, and a few other classes. But there ARE things a Rogue can do better than anyone else:
1. Traps: No one is better at getting around traps than a Trapsmith Rogue. PF APs don't use many traps, but in home games they can get pretty disgusting.
2. Poisons: The Poisoner Rogue is just as good at producing and using very nasty poisons as an Alchemist. The only thing that gives Alchemists a small edge with poisons is their Sticky Poisons discovery but since inhaled poisons are a better way to go, not that big a deal.
3. SA: No one does Sneak Attack better than a Rogue. The Viv Alchemist and Ninja are equally good but not better than a basic Rogue. And the Rogue Scout, Bandit, Knife Master, and Skulking Slayer are far better at Sneak Attack than the Viv Alchemist can be. An argument could be made for the Ninja with Invisible Blade, but Rogues can get Greater Invisibility too in a number of ways. In fact, anyone can.
4. CDG: With Sneak Attack and a few other options the Rogue is better at Coup De Graces than any other class. Not sure how many people the average Rogue these days has CDGd but I have killed quite a few high level NPCs in their sleep.
5. Being useful without spells per day: Personally, I don't care to rely so much on magic to be useful, but when a Rogue needs it they have UMD and a few other tricks. Also, a Rogue functions just fine in an Antimagic Field, which is not so easy for a Bard. They can function inside wild magic and dead magic zones.
6. Disarming: Weapon Snatcher plus a few feats. A Human Swashbuckler Rogue would be able to set this up pretty easily.
7. Feats: I would say second best behind Fighter at getting extra feats. Not all feat options are compatible with all builds, but the options are there.
8. Stealth: I suppose if we are talking about base classes, the Ranger is the best...
1) Kobold Sorcerers beg to differ. And so do Sage Seeker Sorcerers. Oh! and the Crypt Breaker Alchemist puts the rogue to shame as well...
2) Base Alchemists are SO much better...
3) Beastmorph Vivisections are MUCH stronger due to higher ability to hit and a wall of abilities. Normal Vivisections are still strong due to mutagens. Ninja's can turn invisible as well...
4) Really? CDG is pretty much instant kill for anybody... The rogue is literally no better than ANYBODY at this...
5) Good luck passing the will OR fort save... You know, the two saves that straight kill you, without your magical items helping you...
6) Um.. what? Good luck with 3/4 BAB and having no way to improve it... I mean, how can you begin to match a fighter or monk who actually works at disarm?
7) Really? I think wizards are much better...
8) Shadow bloodline sorcerers get HiPS AND spellcasting...
Maybe (though I disagree with a LOT of those), but you'll notice that all of those things are something only a single archetype can do.
So teh Rogue isn't really good at all of those things. He's good at ONE of those things in any given build.
Can a Rogue get ALL of those things on one character, no. Can a Rogue get a couple of those things and still have their basic skill level at several others, Yes.
Poisons, the main advantage an Alchemist has over the Rogue is how quickly he can manufacture them as well.
Actually...the Poisoner doesn't have ANY advantage over the Alchemist. They get Poison Use by default, and can change poisons the same way with Poison Conversion.
So that's everything the Poisoner does already.
Then throw in Celestial Poisons (can poison Undead and stuff), Concentrate Poison (2 for 1!), and all that, and yeah...
Oh and to add insult to injury, Poison Conversion only takes a minute (as compared to an hour), and has no chance of failure!
I stand corrected about Poisons. Alchemist becomes better than Poisoner Rogue. It will take a Poisoner more prep-time, but they will still be able to use the best poisoning tactic, taking more dangerous poisons and converting them to inhaled poisons, then stacking doses into one vial.
taking more dangerous poisons and converting them to inhaled poisons, then stacking doses into one vial.
The thing alchemist can do in a few minutes?
taking more dangerous poisons and converting them to inhaled poisons, then stacking doses into one vial.The thing alchemist can do in a few minutes?
Aren't most of the good poisons obscenely expensive for a single dose even when making them yourself, especially if you are combining multiples into one? Not meaning to be sarcastic here; I really haven't looked too indepth into poisons for a while, so for all I know there could be one really good cost effective one.
1. Traps: No one is better at getting around traps than a Trapsmith Rogue. PF APs don't use many traps, but in home games they can get pretty disgusting.The Sage Seeker Sorcerer has a lower overall Disable Device due to a lower dex BUT can craft their own magic items and therefore has access to cheaper key items like the Vestment of Escape. They can also detect magical traps far easier as a result of detect magic, can disarm them with both disable device and dispel magic and can use disable device from range with Pilfering Hand. They therefore remain largely safe from triggering such traps.
Have you read Trapsmith? I am not going to copy/paste it here but it's better at handling traps than the Seeker Sorcerer. As far as detecting traps, Rogues can get detect magic through a variety of means as well. And they have the Trap Spotter talent with a high perception which can detect things that detect magic could miss.
3. SA: No one does Sneak Attack better than a Rogue. The Viv Alchemist and Ninja are equally good but not better than a basic Rogue. And the Rogue Scout, Bandit, Knife Master, and Skulking Slayer are far better at Sneak Attack than the Viv Alchemist can be. An argument could be made for the Ninja with Invisible Blade, but Rogues can get Greater Invisibility too in a number of ways. In fact, anyone can.The Ninja is vastly better than the Rogue at sneak attack as they can turn invisible and eventually get greater invis providing their own method of generating sneak attack far more often. The scout is great at getting sneak attack once per round but will often have to eat opportunity attacks to do so.
Ninja's can be better at consistently gaining SA "AFTER" level 10. However, at that level there will be more and more things with ways to see through invisibility making that ability less and less useful. Getting Flanking, attacking flat-footed opponents, blinding your opponent, etc... are better methods of getting consistent SA.
6. Disarming: Weapon Snatcher plus a few feats. A Human Swashbuckler Rogue would be able to set this up pretty easily.3/4 BaB makes for a terrible disarmer and it costs plenty of feats to be effective at it.
Real quickly, 20 lvl Swashbuckler Rogue: Take Jutte as your Martial Weapon. Take Combat Expertise as a feat then grab Improved Disarm and Greater Disarm as Combat Tricks. Skill Focus Sleight of Hand and Deft Hands. That means your Disarm attempt is 1d20 + 39 + Weapon Enhancement + Dex modifier. Plus with the Sleight of Hand bonuses you are set to take Deft Palm and Underhanded.
8. Stealth: I suppose if we are talking about base classes, the Ranger is the best...
More likely the Bard, Wizard or Sorcerer. All of them can put skill points in stealth and then layer invisibility on top.
Chameleons can put points in Stealth too, and can also get Vanish. Elf Rogues can use Vanish up to 11 times per day if they were so inclined, plus there are other ways to get invisibility and greater invisibility so that's really not that special. Chameleons get several additional bonuses to Stealth.
1. Traps: No one is better at getting around traps than a Trapsmith Rogue. PF APs don't use many traps, but in home games they can get pretty disgusting.The Sage Seeker Sorcerer has a lower overall Disable Device due to a lower dex BUT can craft their own magic items and therefore has access to cheaper key items like the Vestment of Escape. They can also detect magical traps far easier as a result of detect magic, can disarm them with both disable device and dispel magic and can use disable device from range with Pilfering Hand. They therefore remain largely safe from triggering such traps.Have you read Trapsmith? I am not going to copy/paste it here but it's better at handling traps than the Seeker Sorcerer. As far as detecting traps, Rogues can get detect magic through a variety of means as well. And they have the Trap Spotter talent with a high perception which can detect things that detect magic could miss.
Ninja's can be better at consistently gaining SA "AFTER" level 10. However, at that level there will be more and more things with ways to see through invisibility making that ability less and less useful....3. SA: No one does Sneak Attack better than a Rogue. The Viv Alchemist and Ninja are equally good but not better than a basic Rogue. And the Rogue Scout, Bandit, Knife Master, and Skulking Slayer are far better at Sneak Attack than the Viv Alchemist can be. An argument could be made for the Ninja with Invisible Blade, but Rogues can get Greater Invisibility too in a number of ways. In fact, anyone can.The Ninja is vastly better than the Rogue at sneak attack as they can turn invisible and eventually get greater invis providing their own method of generating sneak attack far more often. The scout is great at getting sneak attack once per round but will often have to eat opportunity attacks to do so.
Um, The ninja is literally JUST AS GOOD at flanking, attacking flat-footed opponents, and blinding as the rogue. Actually the ninja is better due to his Vanishing trick (you know, the one you can get AT LEVEL 1) and his bombs.
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Pretty much. . . Rogue can sneak attack with ever attack essentially every round since it is so easy to flank with anything. Bards can't do that.Is this "throw lots of dice each round" or "do a bunch of damage each round" in intent and meaning?36d6 damage every round
/thread
How does Sneak Attack compare to casting Haste and/or Great Heroism on the whole party while maintaining a Bardic Performance to boost them even more?
I'm thinking a Hasted martial character has a much better damage in combat than a Rogue.
That's probably the greatest difference... While Rogues depend on team work and situational conditions to make themselves somewhat useful and not give anything in return to their flanking buddy, a Bard makes the whole group more effective and not only does not rely on situational bonuses but is also a much better team player than any Rogue.
Rogues need their friends to be barely noticeable... Bards make their friends much more effective (all of them at the same time too, not just their flanking body who would benefit just as much from any other flanking buddy). Rogues implores his friends to flank, Bards use Dimension Door and Freedom of Movement (among other spells) to help their friends get wherever they want to go. Rogues beg Wizards and Clerics to buff them so they have at least a small chance of surviving CR-appropriate encounters. Bards buff everyone (including themselves) and let their full caster friends prepare different spells, since they don't have to worry about casting Haste or Greater Heroism.
Again, Rogues are a huge drain on resources... Bards are a great source of resources.
Shadowlord I'm a bit confused. How is the Trapsmith Rogue a better trapfinder? I note that the 8th level ability could be situationally useful but the 4th level ability loses it's effectiveness at about level 7 when people have high enough modifiers to auto disable or are taking 10s on Disable Device due to a feature.
Real quickly, 20 lvl Swashbuckler Rogue: Take Jutte as your Martial Weapon. Take Combat Expertise as a feat then grab Improved Disarm and Greater Disarm as Combat Tricks. Skill Focus Sleight of Hand and Deft Hands. That means your Disarm attempt is 1d20 + 39 + Weapon Enhancement + Dex modifier. Plus with the Sleight of Hand bonuses you are set to take Deft Palm and Underhanded.
Dude, you are spending 5 feats and a rogue talent to do it. And you can only start getting decent with the trick afther level 10.
meanwhile the lore wardedn at level 20 is
20 (BAB) + 8 (maneuver training) + 4 (weapon training) + 4 (disarming feats) + 2 swift lore +2 jutte = +40
with just two feats (since combat expertise is free).
plus underhanded do not even work as written.
3. Ninjas and vivisecsinist get greater invisibility by sthemselve, without spending a single GP. Vivisecsinoist can also get several natural attacks for more SA. Not sure how can you argue in rogues favor here.
Yes, greater invisibility is nice, but after lvl 10, when Ninja's get it, there are more and more things that can ignore it. Natural attacks are nice, how many can a Viv get? Rogues can get natural attacks too, they just have to do it through race or feats rather than class.
6. Are you just comparing against other 3/4 BAB? because full martial are just better here.
No, I am comparing them to anyone.
9. Please, talk more about this.
Resiliency (Especially w/ Vest of the Cockroach)
Defensive RollImproved Evasion
Slippery Mind
Befuddling Strike
Fast Getaway
Offensive Defense
Survivalist
Another Day
Redirect Attack
Slow Reactions/Confounding Blades
Hard Minded
Hide in Plain Sight
Are all of these fantastic, not really, but some of them work quite well are good in conjunction with eachother.
By the way, how many of those things can the rogue have at the same time (Aka, in the same build)?, because the other calsses are pretty good at several things at the same time.
It depends on the build. Between 2 and 5, at a quick look.
Well, show the build. If you are right nobody could argue against your numbers. The standar for comparisions is level 10, 20 PB, 2 traits, standard welath by level.
1-81. Archaeologist bard.
The Archaeologist just gets Trapfinding, and eventually they can take 10 on it. That is not better than a Trapsmith Rogue.
2. Alchemist is just better at this. Hands down.
Point conceded.
3. I would say vanishing trick makes ninjas better.
Yes, Greater Invis is fantastic. What I mean by Rogues are better at SA is that there are a couple Archetypes that are capable of turning d6s into d8s. There are plenty of tactics for getting reliable SA that don't rely on Greater Invis.
4. SA doesn't crit. CDG auto crits. Just about any char with a great axe CDGs better. May be the one thing the rogue is better at than the bard.
Correct, SA doesn't crit, but it can Auto-Max with Underhanded in a surprise round. Now, CDG is a full round action, but a Bandit gets their full compliment of actions in a Surprise Round. So does anyone with Sandals of Quick Reaction. And just for fun, Goblins can add their Rogue Level to SA damage in a Surprise Round. Plus Knife Masters turn d6s into d8s with knives, I'd go Punching Dagger.
5. So are bard. You can remove spell casting from bards and they would still be better than rogues.
They lose more than spells. All Performances, at lease in CRB, are Supernatural too. Some Bard Archetypes do trade their Performances for Ex abilities, they would still be ok, but most Bards would lose like 60% to 90% of their combat ability.
6. That's a lot of investment. Doesn't work well against claws. Of course a bard archetype could still do this. Just not as soon. Rogue gets a point here.
For a Human or Half-Elf Swashbuckler it's really not a huge investment. Humans and Half-Elves can get a feat at 1st level for free. Swashbucklers can get proficiency with the Jutte for free as well as two uses of Combat Trick. In addition, they can take any feat as an Advanced Rogue talent. So, of the 5 feats this tactic requires to max out up to 4 of them can be race/class features.
Can the Archaeologist pull this off? Yes, but it takes longer and represents a larger investment as it requires 6 feats for them and only 3 can be taken as race/class features.
7. Sorry Monk is better.
There are 11 talents that can grant feats. The Swashbuckler gets more than that with a free Martial Weapon Proficiency and the ability to take Combat Trick twice. The Skulking Slayer can also take Surprise Follow-Through and Improved Surprise Follow-Through as Talents too. Would you take ALL of these on one build? Lol, no, but the feat options are there and it's more than the 6 a base Monk gets. (I don't really know about Monk Archetypes though)
8. Major magic talent? Or alchemist with auto silent spells like invisibility, fly, and greater invisibility. Dem extracts.
Sure the Viv has Invisibility, there are lots of ways to get Invisibility. It's not that hard to overcome in a variety of ways. Fly is nice, but doesn't make them the best at Stealth. A Chameleon with some investment in Stealth and/or Bluff related stuff will be better.
Then I suspect your GM was going very easy on you.
Not the case.
I'm not seeing where the Chameleon is the master of Stealth. He has at 10th level, what, 16 Stealth points (10 ranks, Skill Focus)?
So 1/day he can get a hefty stealth boost, or multiple times a day a smaller one.
Neither of which match up to the +20 from Invisibility, and still doesn't have as much use as say, Blend (which also grants HiPS).
You keep saying a whole lot of things beat invisibility...but those same things (bar See Invisibility) beat Stealth as well. Scent, Blindsense/Sight, Tremorsense, and so on.
Casters have counters to every single one of those. The Rogue does not within his class.
1) Kobold Sorcerers beg to differ. And so do Sage Seeker Sorcerers. Oh! and the Crypt Breaker Alchemist puts the rogue to shame as well...
I am actually not sure what you mean by Kobold Sorcerer. All they get is the ability to lay some trap runes that a Trapsmith Rogue would easily be able to manipulate, they don't get trapfinding at all. As for the Seeker/Sage, the ability they get is essentially just basic Rogue Trapfinding, not better than a Trapsmith.
3) Beastmorph Vivisections are MUCH stronger due to higher ability to hit and a wall of abilities. Normal Vivisections are still strong due to mutagens. Ninja's can turn invisible as well...
I have already talked about Ninjas. Beastmorph, yeah maybe.
4) Really? CDG is pretty much instant kill for anybody... The rogue is literally no better than ANYBODY at this...
I suppose.
5) Good luck passing the will OR fort save... You know, the two saves that straight kill you, without your magical items helping you...
Well, yes, I suppose the Rogue is one save worse than a Bard. There are non-magic methods of boosting your Saves though. Just saying.
6) Um.. what? Good luck with 3/4 BAB and having no way to improve it... I mean, how can you begin to match a fighter or monk who actually works at disarm?
Rogues don't need BAB for Disarming. Weapon Snatcher lets you use a Sleight of Hand check in place of CMB check for Disarming.
7) Really? I think wizards are much better...
Wizards get Scribe Scroll and 4 bonus feats. That is not greater than the amount available for Rogues.
8) Shadow bloodline sorcerers get HiPS AND spellcasting...
Very nice, unless there's a light source nearby, and also available to Rogues, or anyone else, through feat selection. But still not as good as a Chameleon who invests in Stealth and Bluff. Depending on the Campaign it may take more or less of an investment but you have Feats for Stealth and Bluff that will both add to a Chameleon's Stealth ability, then you can take the Terrain Mastery ability for Terrain types you are commonly in, you get the ability to take 10 on Stealth with the Chameleon, and after level 10 you can take the HiPS talent in whatever terrain you commonly find yourself in. Plus the investment in Bluff lends itself to Feinting.
taking more dangerous poisons and converting them to inhaled poisons, then stacking doses into one vial.The thing alchemist can do in a few minutes?
Yes that. Like I said:
"I stand corrected about Poisons. Alchemist becomes better than Poisoner Rogue. It will take a Poisoner more prep-time, but they will still be able to use the best poisoning tactic, taking more dangerous poisons and converting them to inhaled poisons, then stacking doses into one vial."
Shadowlord I'm a bit confused. How is the Trapsmith Rogue a better trapfinder? I note that the 8th level ability could be situationally useful but the 4th level ability loses it's effectiveness at about level 7 when people have high enough modifiers to auto disable or are taking 10s on Disable Device due to a feature.
In PFS / APs the trap DCs and the traps themselves might be easily dismissed. In some home games that is not the case. Just because you don't need it in your games doesn't make the fact that Trapsmiths are better at disabling, disarming, and bypassing traps, or that they can turn magical traps against their enemies rather than just bypass it or shut it down any less true.
Real quickly, 20 lvl Swashbuckler Rogue: Take Jutte as your Martial Weapon. Take Combat Expertise as a feat then grab Improved Disarm and Greater Disarm as Combat Tricks. Skill Focus Sleight of Hand and Deft Hands. That means your Disarm attempt is 1d20 + 39 + Weapon Enhancement + Dex modifier. Plus with the Sleight of Hand bonuses you are set to take Deft Palm and Underhanded.Dude, you are spending 5 feats and a rogue talent to do it.
4 of those feats can be taken as race/class features.
meanwhile the lore wardedn at level 20 is
20 (BAB) + 8 (maneuver training) + 4 (weapon training) + 4 (disarming feats) + 2 swift lore +2 jutte = +40
with just two feats (since combat expertise is free).
So, the 20th lvl Rogue is 1 point behind a 20th lvl Full BAB class that at least one PF designer feels is blatantly overpowered, I'm ok with that.
plus underhanded do not even work as written.
Could you elaborate here? I don't know what you are talking about, it works just fine.
Well, show the build. If you are right nobody could argue against your numbers. The standar for comparisions is level 10, 20 PB, 2 traits, standard welath by level.
I'm not seeing where the Chameleon is the master of Stealth. He has at 10th level, what, 16 Stealth points (10 ranks, Skill Focus)?
So 1/day he can get a hefty stealth boost, or multiple times a day a smaller one.
Neither of which match up to the +20 from Invisibility, and still doesn't have as much use as say, Blend (which also grants HiPS).
You keep saying a whole lot of things beat invisibility...but those same things (bar See Invisibility) beat Stealth as well. Scent, Blindsense/Sight, Tremorsense, and so on.
Casters have counters to every single one of those. The Rogue does not within his class.
I will work on builds, but not tonight.
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SA: No one does Sneak Attack better than a Rogue.
Sorry to interrupt you guys, but I fail to see the point of this one.
Sneak Attack is doing nothing but damages. Shouldn't you consider the whole damage ability of two classes instead of a single class feature?| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, the 20th lvl Rogue is 1 point behind a 20th lvl Full BAB class that at least one PF designer feels is blatantly overpowered, I'm ok with that.meanwhile the lore wardedn at level 20 is
20 (BAB) + 8 (maneuver training) + 4 (weapon training) + 4 (disarming feats) + 2 swift lore +2 jutte = +40
with just two feats (since combat expertise is free).
Note that his standard for overpowered is "anything that gets something better than what is traded out", even when the class in question is underpowered and the class features traded out (which make up 2/3 of the class) are utter crap.
A bad metric all around.
Pretty much. . . Rogue can sneak attack with ever attack essentially every round since it is so easy to flank with anything. Bards can't do that.Is this "throw lots of dice each round" or "do a bunch of damage each round" in intent and meaning?36d6 damage every round
/thread
How does Sneak Attack compare to casting Haste and/or Great Heroism on the whole party while maintaining a Bardic Performance to boost them even more?
I'm thinking a Hasted martial character has a much better damage in combat than a Rogue.
That's probably the greatest difference... While Rogues depend on team work and situational conditions to make themselves somewhat useful and not give anything in return to their flanking buddy, a Bard makes the whole group more effective and not only does not rely on situational bonuses but is also a much better team player than any Rogue.
Rogues need their friends to be barely noticeable... Bards make their friends much more effective (all of them at the same time too, not just their flanking body who would benefit just as much from any other flanking buddy). Rogues implores his friends to flank, Bards use Dimension Door and Freedom of Movement (among other spells) to help their friends get wherever they want to go. Rogues beg Wizards and Clerics to buff them so they have at least a small chance of surviving CR-appropriate encounters. Bards buff everyone (including themselves) and let their full caster friends prepare different spells, since they don't have to worry about casting Haste or Greater Heroism.
Again, Rogues are a huge drain on resources... Bards are a great source of resources.
You are comparing apples to oranges then declaring oranges strictly better--
Rogue= damage dealer
Bard= party buffer
But without any damage dealers in the party, bard can stand there singing all day and haste/heroism to his hearts content and its meaningless.
You are "thinking" that a hasted martial does more damage than a rogue?
Want to show some math on it?
And sorry, but if a player wants to kill things, he is not going to be choosing between Rogue and Bard-- because the player who is likely to choose rogue isn't thinking "ahh, but I could never make an attack myself and let other people do all the killing while I sing". . .
And I don't see how dealing lots of damage and throwing lots of dice-- two things rogues can do that bards can't are mutually exclusive?
A question was asked and the answer is Yes and Yes. So the answer is Yes?
All these posts that are just places for people to bash classes really need to stop-- you don't like the class, don't play it and move on, you aren't going to convince everyone else that they are having badwrongfun playing the class by trying to make false comparisons.
I will work on builds, but not tonight.
Please do, maybe you have found something here, maybe not but if you don't try to build it you'll never know.
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A bard on his own is a decent combatant. Especially the Dawnflower Dervish, but even standard bards are decent.
The rogue certainly isn't a damage dealer. If that's the role he's supposed to fill, he does a horrible job. For a class based on precision he isn't very accurate.
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You are comparing apples to oranges then declaring oranges strictly better--
Rogue= damage dealer
Bard= party buffer
But without any damage dealers in the party, bard can stand there singing all day and haste/heroism to his hearts content and its meaningless.
No it isn't, since he can also, y'know, deal damage. Probably more than a Rogue, sans support, since if properly built he winds up with a vastly higher bonus to hit and almost as much damage.
You say a Rogue is doing 36d6 a round, well that's 126 damage, on average. I'm gonna assume that's on top of his normal attack damage and purely a class feature from Sneak Attack. I'm also assuming it's at pretty high levels.
A fairly standard high level Bard can manage +8 damage on four attacks, and a +9 to hit over a Rogue from class features (and a Courageous weapon), which lets him afford Power Attack at -4 to-hit on a two-handed weapon for another +12, and Arcane Strike for another +5...so that's 100 damage at +5 more than the Rogue to-hit...so almost certainly more damage vs. the vast majority of foes.
All this is with only one round of buffing, by the way (Quickened Haste via Lesser Rod of Quicken, Perform as a Move Action, Good Hope).
You are "thinking" that a hasted martial does more damage than a rogue?
Want to show some math on it?
Those bonuses I mention on the Bard? The Martial Character gets most of them, plus his inherent bonuses. A Barbarian (who admittedly gets more from a Bard than most, since his weapon is Courageous) gets +9 to hit and +8 damage from a Bard, +4 to hit and +6 damage from Rage + a Courageous Weapon, -5 to hit and +15 damage from Power Attack...that's 145 right there as well as +13 to hit over the Rogue (at 20th...slightly less like +12 at 16th), and half again his non-Raging Strength on all five attacks...
And sorry, but if a player wants to kill things, he is not going to be choosing between Rogue and Bard-- because the player who is likely to choose rogue isn't thinking "ahh, but I could never make an attack myself and let other people do all the killing while I sing". . .
Which ignores falchion or archer Bards who do better damage than the Rogue on average and buff the party, and cast spells.
And I don't see how dealing lots of damage and throwing lots of dice-- two things rogues can do that bards can't are mutually exclusive?
They aren't, but Bards can do the first, if perhaps not the second.
A question was asked and the answer is Yes and Yes. So the answer is Yes?
You are incorrect.
All these posts that are just places for people to bash classes really need to stop-- you don't like the class, don't play it and move on, you aren't going to convince everyone else that they are having badwrongfun playing the class by trying to make false comparisons.
Look, I love Rogues, I've played Rogues for thematic reasons. I'm just looking at them objectively and comparing what they can do...and they don't hold a candle to well-made a Bard.
1) Kobold Sorcerers beg to differ. And so do Sage Seeker Sorcerers. Oh! and the Crypt Breaker Alchemist puts the rogue to shame as well...I am actually not sure what you mean by Kobold Sorcerer. All they get is the ability to lay some trap runes that a Trapsmith Rogue would easily be able to manipulate, they don't get trapfinding at all. As for the Seeker/Sage, the ability they get is essentially just basic Rogue Trapfinding, not better than a Trapsmith.
3) Beastmorph Vivisections are MUCH stronger due to higher ability to hit and a wall of abilities. Normal Vivisections are still strong due to mutagens. Ninja's can turn invisible as well...I have already talked about Ninjas. Beastmorph, yeah maybe.
4) Really? CDG is pretty much instant kill for anybody... The rogue is literally no better than ANYBODY at this...I suppose.
5) Good luck passing the will OR fort save... You know, the two saves that straight kill you, without your magical items helping you...Well, yes, I suppose the Rogue is one save worse than a Bard. There are non-magic methods of boosting your Saves though. Just saying.
6) Um.. what? Good luck with 3/4 BAB and having no way to improve it... I mean, how can you begin to match a fighter or monk who actually works at disarm?Rogues don't need BAB for Disarming. Weapon Snatcher lets you use a Sleight of Hand check in place of CMB check for Disarming.
7) Really? I think wizards are much better...Wizards get Scribe Scroll and 4 bonus feats. That is not greater than the amount available for Rogues.
8) Shadow bloodline sorcerers get HiPS AND spellcasting...Very nice, unless there's a light source nearby, and also available to Rogues, or anyone else, through feat selection. But still not as good as a Chameleon who invests in Stealth and Bluff. Depending on the Campaign...
A Ninja is literally better than the rogue at stealth. And no, you do not need to wait till level 10. AT LEVEL 2 YOU CAN GET VANISHING TRICK. Try reading.
The reason I say wizards is because wizards get 4 bonus feats, but their feats make a MUCH larger impact in the game. Craft Wondrous Item? Break WBL. Dazing Spell? Large Scale AoE damage and CC. Spell Focus? Make the already nasty wizard spells harder to resist.
As for non magic ways, they won't help you enough to make up for the fact that you literally have the WORST SAVES IN THE GAME of any PC class AND you are MAD as all hell. So yeah, have fun.
CBM greatly outpaces skill... Don't believe me? Ask the tumble skill...
As for the light source, ever heard of the spell DARKNESS? Here, let me link it for you: Darkness
Oh, and lets not forget this ability
A shadow sorcerer who gets Wayang Spell hunter and magical lineage and silent stills all his spells can actually make of the most deadly assassins (large stealth bonus, spells to augment, can summon creatures/drop powerful spells without anyone being the wiser)
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You can get Improved Steal without putting 13 points into what's a dump stat for both classes, I guess.
I find this statement extremely telling. I would never build a rogue with intelligence as their dump stat - in fact I consider it the rogue's main stat. Why would you pick a class who's main thing is skill points and then dump the stat that gives you skill points?
Int replaced Dex as the rogue's "prime requisite" as soon as 3.0 hit.
Only the rogue can, in theory, be getting 15 skill points a level right out of the gate, although even I think that's a little extreme. 12-13 is very doable though. (16 int, favored class bonus, maybe human bonus)