Barbarians are able to be built in a way where they can resist level appropriate magic as well as wreck stuff in melee, notably being able to pounce at level 10.
How can other 'martial' melee classes be brought up to the level of this iconic Barbarian?
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Barbarians are able to be built in a way where they can resist level appropriate magic as well as wreck stuff in melee, notably being able to pounce at level 10.
How can other 'martial' melee classes be brought up to the level of this iconic Barbarian?
Paladins are already pretty close, though they lack Pounce.
But the simplest way to fix this disparity is to introduce a Feat that grants Pounce. There's already a Kitsune only Feat that does so. It requires +10 BAB and two other Feats as prerequisites...so that's established as about what the prerequisites should be. Though in fairness, it is race specific and the previous Feats aren't combat useful, and it has limitations (you can probably only use it every other round, barring weirdness, due to the way it works)...so maybe call it three prerequisite Feats for a Feat that just gives it to you unrestricted.
I'd be personally inclined to make it require Spring Attack, to fit the less than useful prerequisites limitation and because they seem thematically related.
That should fix just about everyone except Rogues, Fighters, and possibly Monks...who need help of a different kind entirely. And it helps Fighters out quite a bit as well, to be honest.
Does the iconic Barbarian actually use the Beast Totem tree? Nevermind...
Skill Focus, Eldritch Heritage, and Improved Familiar for a Ratling that can 3/day Dimension Door you to your enemy and/or use scrolls of Dim Door? Yeah that doesn't really help in the long run of this discussion.
I like a houserule I saw on these boards a while back, but never tried it: Every time you gain an additional attack through BAB you also add 5 feet to the distance you can "5 foot" step.
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Barbarians are able to be built in a way where they can resist level appropriate magic as well as wreck stuff in melee, notably being able to pounce at level 10.
How can other 'martial' melee classes be brought up to the level of this iconic Barbarian?
I am not sure, I think they should.
Baselining a game aroung a few mechanical optimal choices is a very bad idea, since it enhances the notion that 'the best choice is the only choice'. Furthermore adding more options that are just as strong, simply add power creep, as a single combination of choices will always be slightly better than another. At the end of the day, it suggests a game of 3 or 4 choices, in which we don't really need all the options we got today.
I might be stretching you question a bit above, but I do think that a Superstition Beast Totem Invulnerable Rager is a bit too specific - and too top tier - to be the basis for balancing other martial options.
IMO the main problem with martials, is the lack of options besides full attacking. Pounce wouldn't be that great, if we had better uses of a standard action.
Playing a martial (and combat in generel) would be more fun (subjectively) if it had more to it than simply rolling the same dice each and every round.
As it is, the alternatives to full attacking and dealing a lot of damage, is not simply subpar, but so vastly below in effectivity that they stop being a part of the game. And if we want to do something else, it require a degree of specialization that makes us into a one-trick pony, simply repeating that action over and over again.
Adding it as a feat or selectable class feature (such as a Rogue Talent) makes it a bit of a tax, but adding it innately would require a rewrite of certain classes at the very least.
@Chaoseffect: Iconics should not be used as a basis for anything. Valeros uses TWF with a Longsword and Shortsword. Seelah took the Vital Strike line. Seoni focuses on blasting, which is not very good with CRB only. Harsk uses a Crossbow, enough said.
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@Chaoseffect: Iconics should not be used as a basis for anything. Valeros uses TWF with a Longsword and Shortsword. Seelah took the Vital Strike line. Seoni focuses on blasting, which is not very good with CRB only. Harsk uses a Crossbow, enough said.
I was just kinda being an ass because he mentioned the "iconic Barbarian," when it seems like he meant "the standard optimized Barbarian." You don't have to tell me the Iconics suck!
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Why not pull the barbarian back, rather than make everyone else even more strong?
Kind of pointless to discuss, no one is going to get the changes they want pre pf2.0
Belly aching accomplishes zero, except to possibly anger devs, which ultimately just leads to threadlock. Hope for better archetypes or more crane style type nerfs but we are all reallyat the mercy of Buhlman and co.
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Kind of pointless to discuss, no one is going to get the changes they want pre pf2.0
Belly aching accomplishes zero, except to possibly anger devs, which ultimately just leads to threadlock. Hope for better archetypes or more crane style type nerfs but we are all reallyat the mercy of Buhlman and co.
Actually, my suggestion is quite possible in this Edition. As mentioned there are already a couple of ways to do it.
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Why not pull the barbarian back, rather than make everyone else even more strong?Because the Barbarian is far from the strongest class in the game...so that's kinda mean and unfair to the Barbarian players. Why nerf them rather than Wizards, y'know?
I don't know, as it stands right now, a mid to high level barbarian can defeat a CR equivalent enemy in 1 or 2 rounds easy. Regardless of the power of casters, that doesn't seem like something desirable for the game.
I don't know, as it stands right now, a mid to high level barbarian can defeat a CR equivalent enemy in 1 or 2 rounds easy. Regardless of the power of casters, that doesn't seem like something desirable for the game.Why not pull the barbarian back, rather than make everyone else even more strong?Because the Barbarian is far from the strongest class in the game...so that's kinda mean and unfair to the Barbarian players. Why nerf them rather than Wizards, y'know?
Most combats only last a few rounds, and combat already takes a long time.
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Kill pounce as a PC ability dead as a doornail or limit it to only applying to non-iterative attacks (i.e. multiple-weapon attacks, not single weapon repeatedly).
Kill pounce as a PC ability dead as a doornail or limit it to only applying to non-iterative attacks (i.e. multiple-weapon attacks, not single weapon repeatedly).
Only if martials get effective Standard Action options.
Um, Greater beast totem much?
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Kill pounce as a PC ability dead as a doornail or limit it to only applying to non-iterative attacks (i.e. multiple-weapon attacks, not single weapon repeatedly).
I'd take the opposite route, and give everyone pounce, I'm not a fan of melee martials having to tip-toe at most to be at full effectiveness.
To answer the original question (rather than exploring the word 'intended'): switch-hitting fighters and rangers can use archery to do full attacks at range, and quickdraw a melee weapon for adjacent foes. This allows them to do full attacks every round too.
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Um, Greater beast totem much?I would restrict that power as it's intended to the natural attacks of the beast totem, none of this charging lance garbage.
There's actually no evidence of this being the case. They've had explicit errata a number of times on tangential issues (the lance thing, for example) and never once even mentioned the idea. I'm all for going by RAI instead of RAW...but the idea that what you say is RAI is a stretch.
Also...that doesn't actually power it down much if at all given the number of natural attacks that can be grabbed fairly readily, it just pointlessly restricts Barbarians to being natural weapon users.
Cavaliers already have a pounce feat. It is called Mounted Skirmisher:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/mounted-skirmisher-combat
It is also called taking a one level dip in fighter early on and picking up coordinated charge
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/coordinated-charge-combat-teamwo rk
In point of fact: rules as written, every party with melee characters fighting together would be much much happier campers if they all built to take coordinated charge.
For Monks: let them make a charging full attack with flurry of blows as a ki ability that they get at like level 7. Then give them a feat at level 12 that lets them reduce the ki cost to zero as long as they have at least one ki point left.
This feat chain for everyone else:
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Pounce
All fighter's add 1+1/4 their fighter level to all attributes for the purposes of qualifying for combat feats.
Rogues suck eggs 4 lyfe and I welcome our new Investigator overlords.
Restrict pounce to natural attacks, as it is monster rule to begin with, intended for cats and those alike who does not wield two-handed axes. RAI its when animal jumps onto someone and shreds him with all claws/bites/rakes simultaneously, not dude hitting someone with 1 weapon over and over.
In my opinion barbarian is restricted now to mandatory pounce.
I will just add it to my awesome houserules list then. Move along, citizens.
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In my opinion barbarian is restricted now to mandatory pounce.
I will just add it to my awesome houserules list then. Move along citizens.
Yes, and limiting it to Natural Attacks doesn't change that at all, since natural attacks are actually a solid way to go. Natural Attacks + Pounce is just flat-out better than iterative attacks without Pounce, so the mechanical problem remains, and the thematic one gets worse as all Barbarians are now Beast Totem + natural-weapon users instead of just Beast Totem users.
Maybe the question should be is pounce to powerful ?
Hope for better archetypes or more crane style type nerfs but we are all reallyat the mercy of Buhlman and co.
Sorry for off-topic, but what was the history with crane-style? It was nerfed?
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Hope for better archetypes or more crane style type nerfs but we are all reallyat the mercy of Buhlman and co.Sorry for off-topic, but what was the history with crane-style? It was nerfed?
At one point, when used, it negated a single melee attack per round. This was determined to be too powerful and it now gives a +4 AC bonus against said single attack instead.
Given that it was effectively just a melee version of Deflect Arrows only much higher prerequisites, I don't think that particular nerf was necessary (though it did let anyone who had it solo T-Rexes...)
Maybe the question should be is pounce to powerful ?
The secret real question is why are melee fighters so weak? Towards that point:
Everyone should probably get pounce at like level 12 or something.
My thought is all melee should be able to move their movement during their full attack. 5 foot step is ridiculous. It would be much more interesting. Simple mechanics change would make melee much more effective at later levels. Give people much better options. Right now to make a good melee late level character you NEED pounce. Monks get it with dimensional dervish, very heavy feat cost, but the only way to be effective. AOO mechanic needs to be adjusted and not just for abuse.
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Hope for better archetypes or more crane style type nerfs but we are all reallyat the mercy of Buhlman and co.Sorry for off-topic, but what was the history with crane-style? It was nerfed?At one point, when used, it negated a single melee attack per round. This was determined to be too powerful and it now gives a +4 AC bonus against said single attack instead.
Given that it was effectively just a melee version of Deflect Arrows only much higher prerequisites, I don't think that particular nerf was necessary (though it did let anyone who had it solo T-Rexes...)
Crane was not overpowered when it was the only thing you could do well. But with Master of Many Styles one could get it in two levels and not have to be 9th level. Instead of fixing MoMS they nerfed crane style. MoMS had many negatives but if you only take 2 levels you get evasion + crane style, extra feats got you crane wing, and didn't have to deal with the negative parts.
Poor choice on developers IMO. MoMS is still abused to dip, it seemed to be made for dipping into monk to get all the bonuses without much negatives.
My thought is all melee should be able to move their movement during their full attack. 5 foot step is ridiculous. It would be much more interesting. Simple mechanics change would make melee much more effective at later levels. Give people much better options. Right now to make a good melee late level character you NEED pounce. Monks get it with dimensional dervish, very heavy feat cost, but the only way to be effective. AOO mechanic needs to be adjusted and not just for abuse.
Well, having pounce rather than movement AND attack still adds some tactical depth to things. Doing anything at all makes the game a b~%@# to re-balance, though.
For instance: if I only add pounce then it makes dragon style something every single character will want. If we do a move action AND full attack, it invalidates nearly every feat that lets you make a special attack as a standard action or make a special charge, greatly increases the real power of a high movement speed (the charge does that to a lesser extent), and perhaps overly validates a lot of "many attack" builds (I am looking at YOU, eidolons).
I just gotta put out my own Pathfinder to Pathfinder: Waylocationer.
Oh ok. More precisely we are talking crane wing right? The second feat in the chain?
My thought is all melee should be able to move their movement during their full attack. 5 foot step is ridiculous. It would be much more interesting.
I disagree. There should be some kind of trade-off between getting multiple attacks and not doing so but accomplishing some other goal. That said, the cost of the trade-off could be reduced by making vital strike (or some facsimile thereof)a function of having iterative attacks rather than requiring it to be purchased as a feat.
My thought is all melee should be able to move their movement during their full attack. 5 foot step is ridiculous. It would be much more interesting.I disagree. There should be some kind of trade-off between getting multiple attacks and not doing so but accomplishing some other goal. That said, the cost of the trade-off could be reduced by making vital strike (or some facsimile thereof)a function of having iterative attacks rather than requiring it to be purchased as a feat.
This makes sense in a lot of ways, but perhaps you could go a little farther in terms of degree. I would like to see this stronger.
Note that this further devalues one-handed sword builds too (which are already underpowered). On a possible plus, it also devalues two-weapon-fighting builds which are probably too often the best options for classes that get a big static bonus to damage per hit.
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My thought is all melee should be able to move their movement during their full attack. 5 foot step is ridiculous. It would be much more interesting.I disagree. There should be some kind of trade-off between getting multiple attacks and not doing so but accomplishing some other goal. That said, the cost of the trade-off could be reduced by making vital strike (or some facsimile thereof)a function of having iterative attacks rather than requiring it to be purchased as a feat.
Does a magic user have a disadvantage to his base skills that if he goes up levels he become less effective because everything has that many more hit points and he can only do good damage when he stands in one spot? Magic users actually gain usefulness by getting rods, quicken spells, they get even more utility where the martial characters are stuck in a 5 foot dance if they get the chance.
The 5 foots step mechanic really kills viability of the martial classes in later levels. If one gives 30 feet with a rejig of the AOO mechanic it would help a lot. Mobility is the real issue with the viability of martial classes.
Most powerful fighter: Archer
Most powerful monk: Archer
Most powerful ranger: Archer
Most powerful martial: anything with Pounce or Archery where they can eliminate the 5 foot dance.