My GM is a madman, and I ask for help


Rules Questions

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Wow, alright. Let's get something straight once and for all. This individual is personally a VERY IRRATIONAL AND UNREASONABLE PERSON. This so happens to also be reflected when involving pathfinder. Again, anyone that wants to inform me "well don't play with him" is beyond reasoning with at this point of the thread. I'm in no way summing him up because how he plays pathfinder, because that's simply absurd and unfair, so STOP IT, PLEASE.

Asserting things as FACT and having agreed upon discussion about interpretation are different things, thus, I'm here. Again, I don't presume to know everything there is to know, and admit my shortcomings with magic.someone before told me to play a martial class, well for the record, I'm a human fighter, and the other character did the things!

I don't care about how you run your games in this matter, no one asked, and it's irrelevant to the thread. If you personally agreed to these terms, then blatantly lied, I'm sure you wouldn't be held in the highest esteem, and you refusing to hear concerns like you're positioning yourself,, I feel would make the want to not play together between yourself and players would be mutual.

My point about our agreement and using 3.5 specific items absolutely applies, and if nothing I wrote you, especially this satisfies you, then I suggest that your participation to these online forums in general should be reevaluated. So many instances of failure from others to be properly considerate, and reading comprehension has occurred, and my involvement on these boards isn't going to be me laying down to what I constantly cringe at reading other threads.

Any elaboration on the rules I asked for, or ADVICE on how to communicate rules to my established unreasonable gm, or advice on things relating to these rules are helpful. Thanks.


Bruno Kristensen wrote:
Color Spray creates light, unless the physics of the campaign setting varies greatly from our world (and yes, using the laws of physics in a world with magic can be dangerous), as different colors are different wave lenghts of light.

not to be rude, but could you support your positron please. I need convincing evidence for not only myself, but others. Thanks.


@OP.

Not sure how the posts were going, but I have a few quick things to add.

@Knowledge checks are a pain. You know it or don't, but you know stuff even before you roll. What kinda of check are you making. Eg knowledge nature for a plant type creature. Well ok, since you know it's a plant you can expect basic knowledge that it has plant characteristics. Look up plant type and see what the basic characteristics would be. Being immune to stun, mind affects, crits I think would be something you could be safe to assume. You might not know its special attacks, etc...., but you could gather some basic useful information even before you roll the dice. So when you fail you can still convey the basic concepts plant creature. That way its not a total loss for investing skill points intd botching a roll.

@stun effect. I think of being stunned as being punched in the nose. Your eyes water up your natural reaction is to cover your face, nbut your not helpless or on the ground. You're a bit distracted as your eyes are watering up. To me that creates a nice visual on being stunned. Vs being paralysed or "held". You can still defend yourself being stunned, but not as effectively.

Hope things get resolved.

Scarab Sages

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Rapanuii wrote:
I'm not going to be so arrogant as to act like I have a completely mastery of the system

I do. I'm THAT awesome!

Seriously, though, ya'll are WAY too tense about this whole thing, IMHO. I've read the thread, and it seems to have devolved into a insult throwing session.

I was enjoying the original discussion (does color spray work in darkness....? Never thought about that).
As to the original questions….

Rapanuii wrote:


1. Color spray/Stun cause a Phantom Fungus inverted climbing on a ceiling fall off?
2. Does color spray make light?
3. Does color spray not work in total darkness?

1. No. Nowhere in the description of stun does it state that a creature collapses. (pg 568 of Core Rulebook). Also, under climb skill (pg. 91 of Core Rulebook) “a creature with a climb speed…can always choose to take a 10 even when rushed or threatened…” A phantom fungus has a climb speed of 20 ft. (Bestiary 3). I therefore posit that a Phantom Fungus, unless actually hit while stunned, would just hang from the ceiling and not threaten. It spends all of its very limited concentration on clinging to the ceiling as an instinctual reaction. But, all of this IS moot, as the fungus is a plant, and therefore immune to mind-affecting spells (Bestiary, pg 309).

2. By description, yes, but by definition of pattern under illusion (Core Rulebook pg 210), it doesn’t seem to matter, as the spell not only produces light (possibly), but also enters the mind of the victim (thus the mind-affecting descriptor).

3. By the information provided in answer 2, again, possible, but doesn’t matter. Also, in this way, color spray can affect dark-vision, which inherently doesn’t see colors, and theoretically could avoid the affect if it were ONLY based off of color.

In conclusion, IMHO, color spray would not stun the phantom fungus, as it is a plant and immune. A stunned climbing creature would NOT fall, unless they fail a Climb check. Color Spray does create momentary light but this is not necessary for the spell to take affect and is simply a visual display of the magic. Therefore, color spray would work in total darkness.


Another thing to consider -

bats typically sleep suspended upside down, many birds sleep perching on branches - their grip does not fail when they fall asleep (I think, unlike human hands, they kind of lock in place?) so I don't think they would release their grip and fall if stunned.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Rapanuii wrote:

1. Color spray/Stun cause a Phantom Fungus inverted climbing on a ceiling fall off?

2. Does color spray make light?

3. Does color spray not work in total darkness?

1) Sleeping bats still hang to the ceiling, so the fungus legs/feet could have something hooked onto stone to prevent the falling. Seems reasonable to me.

2) Does it say it does?

3) You need to be able to see it, if you are blind you can't see it. If you are in darkness, you may not be able to see the colorful pattern. Ask your GM.

These questions you ask are all things the GM can handle, if you don't like his answers then please switch to a different game. You will make yourself much happier.


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Rapanuii wrote:
Wow, alright. Let's get something straight once and for all. This individual is personally a VERY IRRATIONAL AND UNREASONABLE PERSON.

In honesty, you're coming across that way yorself. Just so you know.


Rapanuii wrote:
Bruno Kristensen wrote:
Color Spray creates light, unless the physics of the campaign setting varies greatly from our world (and yes, using the laws of physics in a world with magic can be dangerous), as different colors are different wave lenghts of light.
not to be rude, but could you support your positron please. I need convincing evidence for not only myself, but others. Thanks.

Seriously? You come to the rules forum to complain about your GM, and you don't know how light works?

How light works


@aristen, I have an appreciation for the knowledge check mechanics, and sympathize with the gm with acquiring information. Specifics don't matter except when the character gets around 30 or more, the gm tells me something absurd about personally experiencing the creature. Upon explaining how knowledge works, even with the most basic things like giving my general creature type knowledge, he just stays stubborn, while everyone recognizes we need to nip this in the bud.

Also, thanks for clarifying my wrongful interpretation of stun with your example. I definitely confused it with paralyze, and will make sure my group hears your example to put them at ease.

@William, I enjoy your humor, and I don't like how things have shifted to this. I'm aware I'm personally involved with interacting back, and wish none of this aspect occurred.

I'll have to look up the details for pattern I guess, because I assume you allude to that being the source of explanation for the light. I tried to argue the simplicity of the cone just covering targets for mind effecting purposes, but the inclusion of nonsighted creatures being an exception.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32

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Did a little experiment.

Got the disco ball out of the attic from my unsuccessful years as a weddings, birthdays and barmitzers (sp?) Dee-Jay.

Took it to my bathroom, which has fungi growing on the walls.

Span the disco ball and waved a flashlight at it.

Fungi did not fall off wall.

Ergo, I think the DM wins.


Gauthok wrote:
Rapanuii wrote:
Bruno Kristensen wrote:
Color Spray creates light, unless the physics of the campaign setting varies greatly from our world (and yes, using the laws of physics in a world with magic can be dangerous), as different colors are different wave lenghts of light.
not to be rude, but could you support your positron please. I need convincing evidence for not only myself, but others. Thanks.

Seriously? You come to the rules forum to complain about your GM, and you don't know how light works?

How light works

this doesn't seem derogatory at all... Nope.

Someone link this guy to an explanation to what reading comprehension and I'm sure he'll genuinely appreciate it.

If you would like to read color spray and point out how my question isn't reasonable, I would find that helpful, because others don't seem to agree with you, and I would like to avoid being that way.

My original intent was a rules question forum, and others made it devolve.

,@kirth, constructive criticism would be appreciated. I dying want to look unreasonable or irrational. I do feel you're incorrect with your observations, but perhaps I'm biased by myself.


Transylvanian Tadpole wrote:

Did a little experiment.

Got the disco ball out of the attic from my unsuccessful years as a weddings, birthdays and barmitzers (sp?) Dee-Jay.

Took it to my bathroom, which has fungi growing on the walls.

Span the disco ball and waved a flashlight at it.

Fungi did not fall off wall.

Ergo, I think the DM wins.

you have the ability to cast color spray outside of a fantasy game by using a flashlight and a disco ball? They must have recalled those items otherwise every terrorist and bank robber would be using it!

I've already reached the conclusion as to why I'm incorrect in the matter, but your selflessly spent time conducting this experiment for my sake will always be demented remembered and appreciated.

Paizo forums, where sarcastic rude people "help" you.

Scarab Sages

Rapanuii wrote:


@William, I enjoy your humor

Thank you. I try.

Raspanuii wrote:


I'll have to look up the details for pattern I guess, because I assume you allude to that being the source of explanation for the light.

The spell simply refers to a flash of light in the descriptor. It's fluff, granted, but it makes sense that there would be a momentary flash of light when the spell goes off. Think of being in a dark room and someone uses one of those old, non-strobbing flash cameras. You get a millisecond glimpe of the room, but nothing that you can use to pinpoint or really process. Also, with the advent of magical darkness, the color spray light effect would be suppressed because darkness is level 2, and color spray is only level 1. The spell, by definition of pattern and mind-affecting, would still occur, as they are not based on the ability to see. Only sightless creatures (not BLIND because of darkness) are immune, as per the description of color spray (Core Rulebook, pg 256).

Now, here's the issue with all of that above....

"In areas of darkness, creatures without darknvision are effectively blinded." (Core Rulebook, pg 172). Therefore (gotta love rules discussions), it infers (there's that word again) that a blinded creature is sightless, and therefore immune to the color spray if it occurs within a darkness spell. BUT, color spray doesn't use the Light descriptor, so it doesn't make a "light" affect, so therefore it wouldn't be repressed by darkness.

So, therefore, my ruling would be that color spray would work in non-magical or magical darkness.

Whew! Okay, time to go back to work.


You've uh... complained about a lot of things in here, so I'll just pull something at random.

Knowledge Check mechanics:

In general, you would be right that the general procedure is to make a knowledge check to determine if you know what the thing is, and if so, what details you know about the thing.

...However your GM is a GM. They have carte blanche to make the rules work whatever way they want to (and yes, it is in the rules as written that the GM gets to break the rules as written). Auto-failure of a knowledge check for the sake of making a monster mysterious is arguably one of the most reasonable possible reasons to invoke auto-failure, actually.


William, I greatly respect how your directly addressing my problems, especially articulating things so well. You've been extremely helpful, and I feel copy and paste with your responses, for the most part, but I'm not seeing this fluff that implies light, and looking at pattern descriptor I'm also not helped (I know you didn't say it would exactly and I assumed). In fairness I'm not looking at the direct book source, so perhaps the online srd's lack this fluff. Within reason I am more than happy to accept reasonable interpretations of fluff, so if possible could you assist me to clarify this matter?

Edit: my phone didn't do things correctly. Apologies.


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Rapanuii wrote:

William, I greatly respect how your directly addressing my problems, especially articulating things so well. You've been extremely helpful, and I feel copy and paste with your responses, for the most part.

I'm not seeing this fluff that implies light, and looking at pattern descriptor I'm also not helped (I know you didn't say it would exactly and I assumed).I'm fairness I'm not looking at the direct book source, so perhaps the online srd's lack this fluff. Within reason I am more than happy to accept reasonable interpretations of fluff, so if possible could you assist me to clarify this matter?

It's not fluff. RE: Light spell: School evocation [light]; Level bard 0, cleric/oracle 0, druid 0, inquisitor 0, magus 0, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner 0, witch 0

Color Spray does not have light as a descriptor per the RAW, where the Light spell does per RAW.


Cubic, I'm confused at what you're exactly trying to convey, because stating it's not fluff seems for it producing light, then later you seem to be arguing it doesn't. Again, I'm confused.

What is this fluff that I'm overlooking that implies light, or lack thereof? Again, I only have sources that aren't the RAW in the core rule book, because the book isn't physically with me. Perhaps there was an error, or a fix which explains my lacking of this information, or perhaps I use a badly sourced srd.


William Sinclair wrote:


Now, here's the issue with all of that above....

"In areas of darkness, creatures without darknvision are effectively blinded." (Core Rulebook, pg 172). Therefore (gotta love rules discussions), it infers (there's that word again) that a blinded creature is sightless, and therefore immune to the color spray if it occurs within a darkness spell. BUT, color spray doesn't use the Light descriptor, so it doesn't make a "light" affect, so therefore it wouldn't be repressed by darkness.

So, therefore, my ruling would be that color spray would work in non-magical or magical darkness.

Whew! Okay, time to go back to work.

It's an illusion. That means if you can't see it, it doesn't work. Perhaps the _caster_ could see it as he is expecting (subliminally) for there to be light emitted. But illusions are illusions "These are not the photons you are looking for" (in a mysterious compelling voice).

Without a medium to propagate it illusions are not there. They provide no light of their own to be seen and thus are simply not there as far as the possible victims of the spell are concerned. Now if it said, "The light emitted" or "light effect" or something similar then you would be able to see it. Total darkness is total.

However, if someone rules that infrared light could be made to propagate the illusion and a creature could perceive infrared then it would look to me like it could work.

Liberty's Edge

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I see quite a few folks jumping on this guy for being passionate about his hobby. Some of you sound like real jackasses, jumping all over this guy. Can't you just ignore the parts you think are "whiney" and just focus on the rules questions? Haven't we all at one point or another been exacerbated by a GM that doesn't have a clear handle on the rules? Give this guy a break...

1) Color Spray would create a prismatic/kaleidoscopic display of color. There would necessarily be some light emitted but not enough to overcome Darkness effects. Since Color Spray is a pattern, it must be seen to have effect.

2) If Color Spray has an effect and stuns its target, then it would drop all it is carrying. However, as others have said, this doesn't necessarily follow that the creature would fall off a ceiling, or stop flying, or swimming. It just makes you unable to act and applies disadvantages to the creature.

3) The knowledge skills are useful to see if you know anything about the creatures being faced. Making a successful roll will reveal useful information regarding its abilities and/or weaknesses. The higher the roll the more you know. Have your GM read the knowledge skill entry.


No creature can see (in a traditional sense of the word) in total darkness. You need SOME light. Creatures with "nightvision" have a few additions to their eyes that other creatures (especially very diurnal ones such as birds and humans) don't have. They have a higher ratio of rods to cones, for instance, which don't detect color. That is why birds and humans have much better color-sense than other animals. However,even nocturnal creatures need some amount of light to see.

Despite the fact that darkvision is in black and white, I'd still allow color spray to function. A +2 on the save would be appropriate but I always imagined the spell being quite blinding and it would probably still be offensive.

Also, I'd rule that Color Spray does NOT work in any instance where a creature would be considered "blind" -- such as a human inside of a darkness spell in low-light, or a half-orc under the effects of a Deeper Darkness spell.


I have for over 15 years have never played anything other than a human fighter because personally I hate the idea of using magic, and how I personally feel it usually complicates the game. I just hit things, and get on with the story and role playing. Diving into subtypes and specific schools of magic is blowing my mind right now, and just further makes me want to never deal with this stuff.

Again, the original argument I was given was the word "bright" implying producing light, and I feel everyone can agree that has absolutely no bearing. Some responses I've gotten have been gratefully detailed for me, but at the same time they're flawed until I get further proof.

So far, this is really going to help my group for the future with considering these things, and hopefully it can now be done more quickly too. Please, just be more specific with your answers, because I need to convince others who don't have the best reasoning skills.


I was too thinking of the mechanics of dark vision existing when terminology of "total darkness" is being used. Color spray seems weird to work with lack of color, but mechanically you're able to SEE whatever is existing to cause the illusions affects.

Digital Products Assistant

Locking. Personal insults don't help any conversation, please take a moment to revisit the messageboard rules. If you would like advice regarding resolving an issue with a GM, Gamer Talk is probably the most appropriate forum. If you have a rules question, I would suggest taking a look at the stickied thread in this forum. While you may not be out looking for an FAQ, the information there is useful for getting a more accurate/helpful answer.

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