Multiclass Archetypes VII: MCAs Forever


Homebrew and House Rules

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Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:

It's fine; I tend to work in the same manner.

I wanted to add a new MCA to the list, the Crusader (Paladin/Inquisitor). He is a combat-focused Paladin, fighting demons and other evil beings in the name of his church.
He gives up lay on hands and possibly other abilities in favor of the Inquisitor's Judgements and Spell-Like Abilities. We could also replace certain abilities with more flavorful, in-the-name-of-my-god-I-strike-you-down type abilities.

Perhaps the Oathbound Paladin archetype might be useful for it, especially the vs. Fiends oath I think it is.

Yeah, that would work really well. I was also thinking of the potential of focusing on the use of shields, since that is a common paladin/crusader trope.


Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:

It's fine; I tend to work in the same manner.

I wanted to add a new MCA to the list, the Crusader (Paladin/Inquisitor). He is a combat-focused Paladin, fighting demons and other evil beings in the name of his church.
He gives up lay on hands and possibly other abilities in favor of the Inquisitor's Judgements and Spell-Like Abilities. We could also replace certain abilities with more flavorful, in-the-name-of-my-god-I-strike-you-down type abilities.

Perhaps the Oathbound Paladin archetype might be useful for it, especially the vs. Fiends oath I think it is.
Yeah, that would work really well. I was also thinking of the potential of focusing on the use of shields, since that is a common paladin/crusader trope.

You could easily link the Paladin's Mercy abilities with Inquisitor Judgements maybe? Same with the Teamwork Bonuses and Auras perhaps?


Tyrannical wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:

It's fine; I tend to work in the same manner.

I wanted to add a new MCA to the list, the Crusader (Paladin/Inquisitor). He is a combat-focused Paladin, fighting demons and other evil beings in the name of his church.
He gives up lay on hands and possibly other abilities in favor of the Inquisitor's Judgements and Spell-Like Abilities. We could also replace certain abilities with more flavorful, in-the-name-of-my-god-I-strike-you-down type abilities.

Perhaps the Oathbound Paladin archetype might be useful for it, especially the vs. Fiends oath I think it is.
Yeah, that would work really well. I was also thinking of the potential of focusing on the use of shields, since that is a common paladin/crusader trope.

You could easily link the Paladin's Mercy abilities with Inquisitor Judgements maybe? Same with the Teamwork Bonuses and Auras perhaps?

That... could actually work. I think I'll make a new thread for this, actually, since we aren't even technically working on it yet.


So, any feedback on the Warlord? Koujow?


Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:


That... could actually work. I think I'll make a new thread for this, actually, since we aren't even technically working on it yet.

Sounds good. Paladins are my expertise, so expect me to show up. Where you want this MCA in your list of MCAs? Do you want it as your next one? Or, as we haven't really gotten anywhere with the Spell Rider yet, if you want to work on it instead, we can push Spell Rider back to your next spot?

I think a focus on shields, combining mercies with judgements, and incorporating the Oath vs. Fiends would be great. Almost a fiend hunter, orwhat about a planar crusader that punished/banishes evil outsiders, or tries to convert them? He could be the one that tries to redeem fallen angels, fallen paladins, or even demons and devils. Now that could be an interesting approach. It'd have abilities to strike such creatures down, but also to redeemd them. Could look at the 3.5 E "Sanctified Creature" template or whatever it was from Book of Exalted Deeds. In one of my novels, I have an albino pit fiend that was "redeemed". Could be one of these guys that brought him into the light?

Dark Archive

Warlord

You have a gift. I think that looks great, actually. I currently don't see any issues with it and it looks pretty much how I envisioned it.

I like Warlord, but if you don't, then how about:

* Warlord
* Champion
* Conqueror
* Vanquisher

Those are generally just synonyms of Warlord. lol


No, I'm good with Warlord, we just tend to use two words to denote an MCA. Warlord relates to Fighter, but a descriptive word refering to its Bard half would be good. Charismatic Warlord, Commanding Warlord, etc. Those are just examples.


Inspiring Warlord, maybe? I think that is a build option for the 4E Warlord.

@Christos Gurd: I am interested in your archetype, where can I have a look at it?


Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:

It's fine; I tend to work in the same manner.

I wanted to add a new MCA to the list, the Crusader (Paladin/Inquisitor). He is a combat-focused Paladin, fighting demons and other evil beings in the name of his church.
He gives up lay on hands and possibly other abilities in favor of the Inquisitor's Judgements and Spell-Like Abilities. We could also replace certain abilities with more flavorful, in-the-name-of-my-god-I-strike-you-down type abilities.

Perhaps the Oathbound Paladin archetype might be useful for it, especially the vs. Fiends oath I think it is.
Yeah, that would work really well. I was also thinking of the potential of focusing on the use of shields, since that is a common paladin/crusader trope.

You could easily link the Paladin's Mercy abilities with Inquisitor Judgements maybe? Same with the Teamwork Bonuses and Auras perhaps?

That... could actually work. I think I'll make a new thread for this, actually, since we aren't even technically working on it yet.

I did that with my Merciful Redeemer- Mercy + Judgment became Verdict. You can view that it you will.


Sorry, been busy, RL etc.

# Warlord

While I like the idea of a warlord, the thought of "martial healing" gets a lot of resistance. I think it is better for the warlord to heal per-emptively by handing out temporary hit points. In my experience, virtual hit points need to affect several party members at once, because you can never tell for sure who will take damage. This also fits well with inspirational leadership - you don't generally inspire only one person at a time.

I made a warlord variant of the chevalier, the officer where I based the whole class on the bard's Inspire Greatness ability. By giving several uses of this ability, at increasing strength, you get a kind of virtual healing that is not actually healing at all but fills the same role.

This is how the officer's inspiring leadership works:

Inspiring Leadership (Ex)

Once per day, an officer can use inspiring leadership on nearby allies. This is a standard action that does not trigger attacks of opportunity, or a free action taken during a round in which the officer charges an enemy. The officer exhorts himself and his comrades to fight with renewed vigor and determination. This affects the officer and any allies within 30 ft. Targets must be able to see or hear the officer. A creature thus inspired gains 1 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), and a +1 competence bonus on attack rolls, damage, and armor class. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependent. Inspiring leadership is a mind-affecting emotion effect and lasts for 1 minute per class level.

The officer can use this ability once per day at 1st level, plus one additional time per day for every three levels beyond 1st, to a maximum of seven times per day at 19th level. (This is as many times as a regular chevalier can use challenge.) Bonuses from multiple uses do not stack, but temporary hit points overlap; use the better value if you gain temporary hit points from several different sources, including multiple uses of Inspiring Leadership.

At level 5, and each 5 levels thereafter, inspiring leadership improves. The radius increases by 5 ft. and the bonus increases, giving one extra hit dice and increasing the attack, damage, and armor class bonus by one each.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:


That... could actually work. I think I'll make a new thread for this, actually, since we aren't even technically working on it yet.

Sounds good. Paladins are my expertise, so expect me to show up. Where you want this MCA in your list of MCAs? Do you want it as your next one? Or, as we haven't really gotten anywhere with the Spell Rider yet, if you want to work on it instead, we can push Spell Rider back to your next spot?

I think a focus on shields, combining mercies with judgements, and incorporating the Oath vs. Fiends would be great. Almost a fiend hunter, orwhat about a planar crusader that punished/banishes evil outsiders, or tries to convert them? He could be the one that tries to redeem fallen angels, fallen paladins, or even demons and devils. Now that could be an interesting approach. It'd have abilities to strike such creatures down, but also to redeemd them. Could look at the 3.5 E "Sanctified Creature" template or whatever it was from Book of Exalted Deeds. In one of my novels, I have an albino pit fiend that was "redeemed". Could be one of these guys that brought him into the light?

I suppose we can work on the Crusader instead, there is a surprising amount of synergy between the Paladin and the Inquisitor.

I actually want to move away from the theme of redemption - not only is the Inquisitor class explicitly made to defeat enemies of her faith, a Cleric(evangelist)/paladin(Redeemer) MCA would fit that theme better. Also, because this MCA is based on the Crusader from Diablo 3, I want to focus on demon hunting rather than demon redemption.

I have another MCA idea, the Demon Tamer (Paladin(redeemer)/Bard). The premise is similar to that of the Malconvoker.


Starfox wrote:

Sorry, been busy, RL etc.

# Warlord

While I like the idea of a warlord, the thought of "martial healing" gets a lot of resistance. I think it is better for the warlord to heal per-emptively by handing out temporary hit points. In my experience, virtual hit points need to affect several party members at once, because you can never tell for sure who will take damage. This also fits well with inspirational leadership - you don't generally inspire only one person at a time.

I was debating over that when doing the Bolster Troops part of the Strategic Commands. I think the temp hit dice does fit better, rather than a healing effect, especially since it makes it more morale based vs. a healing effect. I'll make the change and then I think we're good on the Warlord. Inspiring Warlord may be good, though there is the Inspiring Commander alternate class, but that's never stopped us before.


Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:
Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:


That... could actually work. I think I'll make a new thread for this, actually, since we aren't even technically working on it yet.

Sounds good. Paladins are my expertise, so expect me to show up. Where you want this MCA in your list of MCAs? Do you want it as your next one? Or, as we haven't really gotten anywhere with the Spell Rider yet, if you want to work on it instead, we can push Spell Rider back to your next spot?

I think a focus on shields, combining mercies with judgements, and incorporating the Oath vs. Fiends would be great. Almost a fiend hunter, orwhat about a planar crusader that punished/banishes evil outsiders, or tries to convert them? He could be the one that tries to redeem fallen angels, fallen paladins, or even demons and devils. Now that could be an interesting approach. It'd have abilities to strike such creatures down, but also to redeemd them. Could look at the 3.5 E "Sanctified Creature" template or whatever it was from Book of Exalted Deeds. In one of my novels, I have an albino pit fiend that was "redeemed". Could be one of these guys that brought him into the light?

I suppose we can work on the Crusader instead, there is a surprising amount of synergy between the Paladin and the Inquisitor.

I actually want to move away from the theme of redemption - not only is the Inquisitor class explicitly made to defeat enemies of her faith, a Cleric(evangelist)/paladin(Redeemer) MCA would fit that theme better. Also, because this MCA is based on the Crusader from Diablo 3, I want to focus on demon hunting rather than demon redemption.

I have another MCA idea, the Demon Tamer (Paladin(redeemer)/Bard). The premise is similar to that of the Malconvoker.

I'll add that MCA to your list. Maybe I'll work on a Clr(evangelist)/Pal(redeemer) MCA? SO, to the Crusader then. Want to get together you general ideas and post them up, then we can start hammering it out?

Once I get the Warlord finalized, we're on to Gypsy Rose's first MCA.

Inspiring, Relentless, Resolute, or Persistent Warlord? Koujow?


#Warlord
Which would be best for the Strategic Commands ability? One grants a larger amount of "static" temp hit points, but as it is based on each inidivdual ally's physiology, I think the first is more likely the way to go.

Bolster Troops: As a standard action, the warlord can spend one use of his battlefield commands to bolster the physical determination of his allies. Each ally gains 1 temporary Hit Dice (d10) and applies her Constitution modifier (if any) as normal. These temporary Hit Dice increase to 2d10 at 7th level, 3d10 at 13th level, and 4d10 at 19th level.

OR

Bolster Troops: As a standard action, the warlord can spend one use of his battlefield commands to bolster the physical determination of his allies. Each ally gains a number of temporary hit points equal to 1d8 points of damage + 1 per warlord level (maximum +10). This increase to 2d8 points of damage + 1 per warlord level (maximum +15) at 9th level, and 3d8 points of damage + 1 per warlord level (maximum +20) at 17th level.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

#Warlord

Which would be best for the Strategic Commands ability?

Personally, I think I'd prefer an option that uses the targets attribute. I could even see one that changed the die type depending on the targets hit die type, but that would be weird for multiclass targets and is not really workable. But it makes sense to me that inspiration would depend a lot on the target, unlike healing that depends on the healer.

I could see the inspirator's level and Cha mod entering the equation, but that could be in the number of attempts or some such.


I agree. The first one it is, as it is based on the target's own Con mod.

Another option could be something like these?

#1) Bolster Troops: As a standard action, the warlord can spend one use of his battlefield commands to bolster the physical determination of his allies. Each ally gains 1 temporary Hit Dice (d10) plus the ally’s Constitution score.

Or

#2) Bolster Troops: As a standard action, the warlord can spend one use of his battlefield commands to bolster the physical determination of his allies. Each ally gains 1 temporary Hit Dice (d10) plus the ally’s Constitution modifier (if any). At 5th level the ally can add twice his Constitution modifier, plus an additional time every four levels thereafter, up to five times his Constitution modifier at 17th level.

The last one really makes it dependant upon the ally's Con modifier. Thoughts? Or shall we just go with the first one in my previous post?

#3) Bolster Troops: As a standard action, the warlord can spend one use of his battlefield commands to bolster the physical determination of his allies. Each ally gains 1 temporary Hit Dice (d10) and applies her Constitution modifier (if any) as normal. These temporary Hit Dice increase to 2d10 at 7th level, 3d10 at 13th level, and 4d10 at 19th level.


#Warlord
So are you wanting to replace smite with jugdgment. Gadgeteer?


Arkellus wrote:

Inspiring Warlord, maybe? I think that is a build option for the 4E Warlord.

@Christos Gurd: I am interested in your archetype, where can I have a look at it?

little red goblin games is having a bit of a "thing" right now, but will link to the product as soon as its over.


@Starfox - just got a notification from Purple Duck Games about their new line of Prestige Archetypes. Authored by you. Congratulations.


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
@Starfox - just got a notification from Purple Duck Games about their new line of Prestige Archetypes. Authored by you. Congratulations.

Thanks a lot! And here I was just wondering if I should self-promote. They were very quick about it, less than a week from first contact. Very happy with how it came out.


# Bolster Troops: #3 (More hit dice) is best in my opinion.

Dark Archive

I agree that option 3 is a pretty good ability.

I can not remember, but does Temp. HP stack? Could a higher level Warlord blow all the uses of his Bolster troops to give his party a huge Temp HP pool? Such a tactic might be a terrible choice, but just wondering. And are we keeping Starfox's suggestion of allies within 30 feet? I would find it hilarious if a single Warlord could grant an army a huge pool of Temp HP. XD

Wow, I am showing a real lack of Rules-Fu today, but I am trying to think of what abilities are improved by having a higher Hit Die (besides HP).

I have a lunatic idea and just wanted to toss it out there. Feel free to tell me I am full of dumb.

Bolster Troops - As a standard action, the warlord can spend one use of his battlefield commands to bolster the physical determination of his allies. Each Ally gains a +2 morale bonus to Constitution. The increase to Constitution grants the Ally 1 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the ability ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. This bonus increases to +4 at 7th level, +6 at 13th level and +8 at 19th level.

While I think the bonus being morale makes sense for a lot of reasons, it would exclude any barbarians in the party (Rage also being a morale bonus). This also makes sense (barbarians being stereotypical opposed to good tactical sense and strong leadership) but I'm not sure if it is a jerk move.


I see no issues with some of the warlord's abilities not working in conjunction with rage.


Temp hit points do not stack. If you get new temp hp, only the higher of the new and old temp hp apply.


@Koujow
Your version only grants 2 bonus hit points vs. a possible 1d10 + individual's Con mod. Some are not going to have a Con mod, so the extrat 1d10 and up to 4d10 at 19th is better. It scales at least with the power of the Warlord and has some dependency on the target's Con score. So at 19th, you get a range 4-40 bonus hit points + Con mod of the target. I think #3 is the best option. Let's call Warlord (I'm going to go with Inspiring Warlord for the name).

OK, on to Gypsy Rose's first MCA.

@Gypsy Rose
OK, we're ready for your first MCA concpet, whichever one you want to start with.

This was your first one.

“Name” – Wiz/Drd (Gypsy Rose)

Dark Archive

Ah man, I thought the next MCA was called Gypsy Rose! lol

Like I said, I know it was kind of crazy. But also, the bonus would give a plus to Fort saves too! But you are right, the temp hp is better.


Koujow wrote:

Ah man, I thought the next MCA was called Gypsy Rose! lol

Like I said, I know it was kind of crazy. But also, the bonus would give a plus to Fort saves too! But you are right, the temp hp is better.

We also need a descriptive flavor blurp. What to write that up?


Here's what I have for the Merciless Crusader (name pending). I didn't see as mercies having any place in this, but this is just our initial built to start from. Need a flavor blurp too.

MERCILESS CRUSADER:

Primary Class: Paladin.
Secondary Class: inquisitor.
Alignment: Any good.
Hit Dice: d10.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The merciless crusader may select three cleric skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal paladin class skills. The merciless crusader gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The merciless crusader is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, light, and medium), and with shields (except tower shields).

Judgment (Su): At 1st level, a merciless crusader gains the inquisitor’s judgment ability. This ability replaces smite evil.

Monster Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, a merciless crusader gains the inquisitor’s monster lore ability, except that she adds her Charisma modifier to her Knowledge checks instead of her Wisdom modifier. This ability and track replace lay on hands.

Track (Ex): At 2nd level, a merciless crusader gains the inquisitor’s track ability.

Channel Positive Energy (Su): This is exactly like the paladin ability of the same name, except that she can channel positive energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.

Spellcasting: A merciless crusader adds the following spells to her spell list at the indicated spell levels: 1st—resist energy; 2nd—detect thoughts; 3rd—invisibility purge; 4th—plane shift.

Crusader’s Bond (Sp): This is exactly like the paladin’s divine bond, except that the merciless crusader must choose to bond with her weapon and can add any of the following weapon properties: anarchic, anchoring, axiomatic, bane (humanoid or outsider only), conductive, greater bane (humanoid or outsider only), holy, keen, nullifying, planar, and speed. The greater bane weapon property functions like the bane weapon property, but it consumes an amount of bonus equal to +4 and deals 4d6 points of extra damage to the selected creature type. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost as normal.

Fiend Shield (Ex): At 6th level, when using a shield in battle against an evil outsider, the merciless crusader gains the benefits of the Improved Shield Bash feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 6th level.

Holy Vessel (Su): At 9th level, a merciless crusader can also use her crusader’s bond to augment her armor or shield with enhancement bonuses, or add any of the following armor or shield properties: bashing, fortification, and spell resistance. In addition, the bonuses can be consumed at the listed amount to add any of the following armor properties: energy resistance for +3 bonus, improved energy resistance for +5 bonus, or righteous for +4 bonus Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost. She can divide her bonuses from the crusader’s bond ability among her weapon, armor, and shield as she sees fit. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 9th level.

Crusader’s Blessing (Su): At 11th level, a merciless crusader can expend a use of her judgment ability as a swift action to grant herself and all allies within 10 feet the Dazzling Assault, Greater Cleave, and Power Attack feats, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. The effects last for 1 minute. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability. This ability replaces aura of justice.

Improved Fiend Shield (Ex): At 12th level, the merciless crusader also gains the benefits of the Bashing Finish feat when using a shield in battle against an evil outsider. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 12th level.

Exploit Weakness (Ex): At 14th level, a merciless crusader gains the inquisitor’s exploit weakness ability. This ability replaces aura of faith.

Fiend Slayer (Ex): At 15th level, a merciless crusader learns to focus her judgment. Whenever a merciless crusader uses her judgment ability against an evil outsider, she must select one type of judgment. She is treated as if she were 3 levels higher for the purposes of determining the bonus granted by this judgment. Unlike other types of judgment, the one enhanced by this ability cannot be changed for the remainder of the judgment. Every two levels above 15th, her level is treated as 1 higher for the purposes of determining the bonus granted by this judgment, up to a maximum of 5 levels at 19th level. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 3rd and 15th level.

Greater Fiend Shield (Ex): At 18th level, the merciless crusader also gains the benefits of the Greater Shield Specialization feat when using a shield in battle against an evil outsider. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 18th level.

Holy Judgment (Su): At 20th level, a merciless crusader can call holy judgment down upon a foe during combat. Whenever a merciless crusader uses her judgment ability against an evil outsider, the merciless crusader can invoke holy judgment on a foe as a swift action. Once declared, the merciless crusader can make a single melee (or ranged attack, if the foe is within 30 feet) against the target. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally and the target must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the merciless crusader's level + the merciless crusader's Charisma modifier. Regardless of whether or not the save is made, the target creature is immune to the merciless crusader's holy judgment ability for 24 hours. If a merciless crusader uses holy judgment against an evil creature that is not an outsider, the target is instead paralyzed for 2d6 rounds if it fails its Fortitude save. Once this ability has been used, it cannot be used again for 1d4 rounds.

Code of Conduct: A merciless crusader never suffers an evil outsider to live if it is in her power to destroy it. Banish fiends she cannot kill. Purge the evil from those possessed by fiends. The merciless crusader must also follow the paladin’s code of conduct as it relates to her alignment.

Table: Merciless Crusader
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will Spells per Day
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special 1st 2nd 3rd 4th

1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Aura of good, detect evil, judgment 1/day — — — —
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Divine grace, monster lore, track — — — —
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Aura of courage, divine health — — — —
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Channel positive energy, judgment 2/day 0 — — —
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Crusader’s bond 1 — — —
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Fiend shield 1 — — —
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Judgment 3/day 1 0 — —
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Anchoring aura 1 1 — —
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Holy Vessel 2 1 — —
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Judgment 4/day 2 1 0 —
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Crusader’s blessing 2 1 1 —
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Improved fiend shield 2 2 1 —
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Judgment 5/day 3 2 1 0
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Exploit weakness 3 2 1 1
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Fiend slayer 3 2 2 1
16th +16/+11/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Judgment 6/day 3 3 2 1
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Aura of righteousness 4 3 2 1
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Greater fiend shield 4 3 2 2
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Judgment 7/day 4 3 3 2
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Holy judgment 4 4 3 3


#Merciless Crusader
I think this is a very good start to the MCA, although it would be cool to replace Spellcasting with improved judgements and synergistic offensive abilities for the shield (counterattacks, ability to use 2h weapons with shields, disarms). Perhaps give certain abilities of Celestials such as true sight and truespeak later on (~15th level or so) to reflect the Crusader's growing power as a conduit of his god's power. One of the Exorcism abilities from the Exorcist inquisitor AT would help better facilitate adherence to the Code.

The unwavering code of conduct could make for interesting situations when a demon seeks redemption, or a good-aligned demonblooded sorcerer appears. And I'm loving the unclear instructions on dealing with the undead. But really I love the code of conduct concept and wish more classes could support it more easily. We need a real Knight class. Actually, a non-mount-focused cavalier MCA would be cool. Add in a (Cavalier/Fighter) MCA to the queue.


Of course the crusader is merciless - he trades his mercies for judgements! Does that make this the judgmental, merciless crusader?

Just adding up these religious terms makes for a pretty ikky description. :o


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HI there, long time reader and thought it was about time i threw my hat in the ring and set myself up for a contribution.

Ive had a look at the existing MCAs and have an idea that i dont think has been done yet.

I humbly offer up

The Body Mechanik
1st Monk
2nd Alchemist

Tbh, i am kinda surprised that this hasn't been done before given the obvious synergy between mutagens, select discoveries and monk abilities. Think of him as a magical-steroid using warrior who will do anything to improve his prowess. To him, his body is nothing more than an organic machine that can be tuned and maximized.

I originally posted a similar idea as a monk archetype about 2 years but i think could really benefit from some MCA love.

Queue me up baby!


Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:

#Merciless Crusader

I think this is a very good start to the MCA, although it would be cool to replace Spellcasting with improved judgements and synergistic offensive abilities for the shield (counterattacks, ability to use 2h weapons with shields, disarms). Perhaps give certain abilities of Celestials such as true sight and truespeak later on (~15th level or so) to reflect the Crusader's growing power as a conduit of his god's power. One of the Exorcism abilities from the Exorcist inquisitor AT would help better facilitate adherence to the Code.

The unwavering code of conduct could make for interesting situations when a demon seeks redemption, or a good-aligned demonblooded sorcerer appears. And I'm loving the unclear instructions on dealing with the undead. But really I love the code of conduct concept and wish more classes could support it more easily. We need a real Knight class. Actually, a non-mount-focused cavalier MCA would be cool. Add in a (Cavalier/Fighter) MCA to the queue.

So, a spell-less MCA? Now what were you thinking with impoved judgments? I assume focussed against fiends.

You could grant ths ability as part of the spellcasting swapout?

Fiendish Judgment (Su): At 4th level, when a merciless crusader pronounces judgment on an evil outsider, she adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her merciless crusader level to all damage rolls made against the target. This ability, X, Y, and Z replace the paladin’s spellcasting.

AS for the shield stuff, I can't see being able to 2-hand fight and use shields (unles its buckers). You may want to look at the Shielded Fighter or Buckler Duelist fighter archetypes for some shield ideas?

For Celestial abilities: Truespeech would work. I would definately suggest either the Angels's Protective Aura or the Archon's Aura of Menace, but with the latter tweaked to function primarily against evil creatures or just evil outsiders.

RE Exorcist archetype: What ability(abilities) were you looking at?


Apraham Lincoln wrote:

HI there, long time reader and thought it was about time i threw my hat in the ring and set myself up for a contribution.

Ive had a look at the existing MCAs and have an idea that i dont think has been done yet.

I humbly offer up

The Body Mechanik
1st Monk
2nd Alchemist

Tbh, i am kinda surprised that this hasn't been done before given the obvious synergy between mutagens, select discoveries and monk abilities. Think of him as a magical-steroid using warrior who will do anything to improve his prowess. To him, his body is nothing more than an organic machine that can be tuned and maximized.

I originally posted a similar idea as a monk archetype about 2 years but i think could really benefit from some MCA love.

Queue me up baby!

Welcome to the thead Apraham Lincoln. Been a lot of followers coming out of the woodwork lately and jumping in with their own builds. I'll add you to the queue for our Body Mechanik. You'll be up in the next 2 or so MCAs, as this is your first one. After Gypsy Rose and Arkellus.


All thesd new people, its so wonderful! +1,000,000 to the monk/alchemist.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:

#Merciless Crusader

I think this is a very good start to the MCA, although it would be cool to replace Spellcasting with improved judgements and synergistic offensive abilities for the shield (counterattacks, ability to use 2h weapons with shields, disarms). Perhaps give certain abilities of Celestials such as true sight and truespeak later on (~15th level or so) to reflect the Crusader's growing power as a conduit of his god's power. One of the Exorcism abilities from the Exorcist inquisitor AT would help better facilitate adherence to the Code.

The unwavering code of conduct could make for interesting situations when a demon seeks redemption, or a good-aligned demonblooded sorcerer appears. And I'm loving the unclear instructions on dealing with the undead. But really I love the code of conduct concept and wish more classes could support it more easily. We need a real Knight class. Actually, a non-mount-focused cavalier MCA would be cool. Add in a (Cavalier/Fighter) MCA to the queue.

So, a spell-less MCA? Now what were you thinking with impoved judgments? I assume focussed against fiends.

You could grant ths ability as part of the spellcasting swapout?

Fiendish Judgment (Su): At 4th level, when a merciless crusader pronounces judgment on an evil outsider, she adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her merciless crusader level to all damage rolls made against the target. This ability, X, Y, and Z replace the paladin’s spellcasting.

AS for the shield stuff, I can't see being able to 2-hand fight and use shields (unles its buckers). You may want to look at the Shielded Fighter or Buckler Duelist fighter archetypes for some shield ideas?

For Celestial abilities: Truespeech would work. I would definately suggest either the Angels's Protective Aura or the Archon's Aura of Menace, but with the latter tweaked to function primarily against evil creatures or just evil outsiders.

RE Exorcist archetype: What...

I was actually looking at the Verdict of Exorcism from that archetype:

Verdict of Exorcism (Su): At 8th level, an inquisitor using judgment can unleash the verdict of exorcism on a creature. When she does, her judgment ends, but the creature is dazed for 1 round (Will negates); if the creature is possessed, the possessing entity must succeed at a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 inquisitor level + inquisitor’s Wisdom bonus), or be exorcised and never again allowed in that same body.

There could also be a new Judgement that expands the Crusader's abilities so that they work on all Evil-aligned creatures, not just outsiders. Since it's so powerful, it should take up two Judgement 'slots' to use.


Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:

I was actually looking at the Verdict of Exorcism from that archetype:

Verdict of Exorcism (Su): At 8th level, an inquisitor using judgment can unleash the verdict of exorcism on a creature. When she does, her judgment ends, but the creature is dazed for 1 round (Will negates); if the creature is possessed, the possessing entity must succeed at a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 inquisitor level + inquisitor’s Wisdom bonus), or be exorcised and never again allowed in that same body.
There could also be a new Judgement that expands the Crusader's abilities so that they work on all Evil-aligned creatures, not just outsiders. Since it's so powerful, it should take up two Judgement 'slots' to use.

I thought that might be the one. AS to his abilities working against all evil creatures, do you mean gaining that and swapping say judgment 2/day and 5/day gain it? We could just have her spend uses of channel energy to make her evil outsider only abilities to apply to any evil creature for the use or duration of the ability?


How about these for spellcasting replacements? The holy conduit will allow the fiendish shield set of abilities to apply to any evil cretures for a certain time.

Fiendish Anathema (Su): At 5th level, when a merciless crusader pronounces judgment on an evil outsider, she adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her merciless crusader level to all damage rolls made against the target. This ability, verdict of exorcism, holy conduit, and greater conduit replace the paladin’s spellcasting.

Verdict of Exorcism (Su): At 9th level, a merciless crusader using judgment can unleash the verdict of exorcism on a creature. When she does, her judgment ends, but the creature is dazed for 1 round (Will negates); if the creature is possessed, the possessing entity must succeed at a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 merciless crusader level + merciless crusader’s Charisma bonus), or be exorcised and never again allowed in that same body.

Holy Conduit (Su): At 13th level, a merciless crusader can spend one use of channel positive energy to apply her fiendish anathema or fiend shield (including improved fiend shield and greater fiend shields) abilities to any evil creature. Each effect last until the end of combat.

Greater Conduit (Su): At 17th level, a merciless crusader can spend one uses of channel positive energy to apply her fiend slayer ability to any evil creature.


Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:
Apraham Lincoln wrote:

HI there, long time reader and thought it was about time i threw my hat in the ring and set myself up for a contribution.

Ive had a look at the existing MCAs and have an idea that i dont think has been done yet.

I humbly offer up

The Body Mechanik
1st Monk
2nd Alchemist

Tbh, i am kinda surprised that this hasn't been done before given the obvious synergy between mutagens, select discoveries and monk abilities. Think of him as a magical-steroid using warrior who will do anything to improve his prowess. To him, his body is nothing more than an organic machine that can be tuned and maximized.

I originally posted a similar idea as a monk archetype about 2 years but i think could really benefit from some MCA love.

Queue me up baby!

Welcome to the thead Apraham Lincoln. Been a lot of followers coming out of the woodwork lately and jumping in with their own builds. I'll add you to the queue for our Body Mechanik. You'll be up in the next 2 or so MCAs, as this is your first one. After Gypsy Rose and Arkellus.

Am on it like grommit

Expect to see something soon


Just don't post until I say.


#Merciless Crusader

Actually, when I was talking about Judgement 'slots,' I meant the upper limit of how many judgements she could have active at any one time. So if she has the 'third judgement' ability, she can have this judgement and one normal judgement active, or three normal judgements active at one time.
As to the 2-hander-and-shield thing, we could put in a Jotungrip line of feats replacing the Fiend Shield line as an option. Speaking of which, we should replace instances of the word 'Fiend' or 'Fiendish' with the word 'Holy.' It seems to fit better.

An Antipaladin corollary class to this one could focus on two-handed weapons instead of sword-and-board feats. Add an (Antipaladin/Inq) MCA to the queue.


Gadgeteer Smashwidget wrote:

#Merciless Crusader

Actually, when I was talking about Judgement 'slots,' I meant the upper limit of how many judgements she could have active at any one time. So if she has the 'third judgement' ability, she can have this judgement and one normal judgement active, or three normal judgements active at one time.
As to the 2-hander-and-shield thing, we could put in a Jotungrip line of feats replacing the Fiend Shield line as an option. Speaking of which, we should replace instances of the word 'Fiend' or 'Fiendish' with the word 'Holy.' It seems to fit better.

An Antipaladin corollary class to this one could focus on two-handed weapons instead of sword-and-board feats. Add an (Antipaladin/Inq) MCA to the queue.

So are you considering giving the MC Second and Third judgment? Because this is a Pal primary, not an Inq primary. If so, that would work. A new judgment or effect that counts as two judgments. SO with second judgment, either 2 judgments or only this new judgment/effect, o at thrid judgment, a judgment + this effect, or 3 judgments.

@Jotungrip
There is no feats for Jotungrip, just the Titan Mauler archetype class feature of the same name. We could put it in. We'll just need to decide what we want to keep and what we want to get rid of. If we want this new judgment, then we'll need the second/third judgment abilites, which reduces what we can keep from the new abilities I listed. Though, Holy Conduit and Greater Conduit weould be rolled into this new Judgment.


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Back from shenanigans and medical issues, so the party can start n-

Oh, it's already going. Geeze, guys, thanks for waiting xP

Someone mind giving me the quick catch-up on what we're in the middle of?


Raiderrpg wrote:

Back from shenanigans and medical issues, so the party can start n-

Oh, it's already going. Geeze, guys, thanks for waiting xP

Someone mind giving me the quick catch-up on what we're in the middle of?

- We're currently working on the Merciless Crusader (Pal/Inq) upthread, though now it seems to be going spell-less, so I'm just waiting on El's tweak to the posted version.

- A new poster-to-the-thread Gypsy Rose has posted an/another idea for a Wiz/Druid, so your inestimable spellcaster-fu should come in handy. Just waiting for Gypsy Rose to post up the concept.

Nice to see you again Raid. :)


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Raiderrpg wrote:

Back from shenanigans and medical issues, so the party can start n-

Oh, it's already going. Geeze, guys, thanks for waiting xP

Someone mind giving me the quick catch-up on what we're in the middle of?

- We're currently working on the Merciless Crusader (Pal/Inq) upthread, though now it seems to be going spell-less, so I'm just waiting on El's tweak to the posted version.

- A new poster-to-the-thread Gypsy Rose has posted an/another idea for a Wiz/Druid, so your inestimable spellcaster-fu should come in handy. Just waiting for Gypsy Rose to post up the concept.

Nice to see you again Raid. :)

Hey Raid!

1) I'm waiting for Gadgeteer to let me know where we're going with things. Spell-less is fine, but he seems to want to include the SEcond and Third judgment abilities, which is fine. Then we need to figure out what to keep and ditch. Though, I think I know what to do and I may just jump on it.

2) Waiting for Gypsy Rose. I PMed her the same day her MCA came up, but it looks like she hasn't been on the messageboards for a few days, so she may be otherwise indisposed. If nothing tomorrow, we'll move on to the next one.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

yay my favorite person to argue with is here! :)


OK, here's the updated Merciless Crusader.

Swaps
Smite evil = Judgment
Spellcasting: Divine sanction, verdict of exorcism, holy vessel, holy conviction, greater conviction
Divine bond = /crusader’s bond
Mercy (6) = Holy anathema
Aura of resolve = Anchoring aura
Mercy (9) = Second judgment
Aura of justice = Crusader’s blessing
Mercy (12) = Divineconviction
Mercy (3/15) = Exploit weakness
Mercy (18) = Third judgment
Holy champion = Holy judgment

MERCILESS CRUSADER v2.:

A paladin is the quintessential champion against all that is evil. However, some choose to focus their wrath upon demons, devils, daemons, and other evil outsiders. The merciless crusader is constantly on the lookout for malicious fiendish insurgence into the world, and when found, faces it with swift and unwavering defiance. Their divine judgment and other god-granted powers enable merciless crusaders to recognize the signs of outsider manipulation and possession and stand toe-to-toe with these evil fiendish entities.

Primary Class: Paladin.
Secondary Class: Inquisitor.
Alignment: Any good.
Hit Dice: d10.

Bonus Skills and Ranks: The merciless crusader may select three cleric skills to add to her class skills in addition to the normal paladin class skills. The merciless crusader gains a number of ranks at each level equal to 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The merciless crusader is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, light, and medium), and with shields (except tower shields).

Judgment (Su): At 1st level, a merciless crusader gains the inquisitor’s judgment ability. This ability replaces smite evil.

Monster Lore (Ex): At 2nd level, a merciless crusader gains the inquisitor’s monster lore ability, except that she adds her Charisma modifier to her Knowledge checks instead of her Wisdom modifier. This ability and track replace lay on hands.

Track (Ex): At 2nd level, a merciless crusader gains the inquisitor’s track ability.

Channel Positive Energy (Su): This is exactly like the paladin ability of the same name, except that she can channel positive energy a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier.

Crusader’s Bond (Sp): This is exactly like the paladin’s divine bond, except that the merciless crusader must choose to bond with her weapon and can add any of the following weapon properties: anarchic, anchoring, axiomatic, bane (humanoid or outsider only), conductive, greater bane (humanoid or outsider only), holy, keen, nullifying, planar, and speed. The greater bane weapon property functions like the bane weapon property, but it consumes an amount of bonus equal to +4 and deals 4d6 points of extra damage to the selected creature type. Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property's cost as normal.

Divine Sanction (Ex): At 5th level, a merciless crusader may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability, verdict of exorcism, holy vessel, holy conviction, and greater conviction replace the paladin’s spellcasting.

Holy Anathema (Su): At 6th level, when a merciless crusader pronounces judgment on an evil outsider, she adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her merciless crusader level to all damage rolls made against the target. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 6th level.

Verdict of Exorcism (Su): At 8th level, a merciless crusader using judgment can unleash the verdict of exorcism on a creature. When she does, her judgment ends, but the creature is dazed for 1 round (Will negates); if the creature is possessed, the possessing entity must succeed at a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 merciless crusader level + merciless crusader’s Charisma bonus), or be exorcised and never again allowed in that same body.

Holy Vessel (Su): At 9th level, a merciless crusader can also use her crusader’s bond to augment her armor or shield with enhancement bonuses, or add any of the following armor or shield properties: bashing, fortification, and spell resistance. In addition, the bonuses can be consumed at the listed amount to add any of the following armor properties: energy resistance for +3 bonus, improved energy resistance for +5 bonus, or righteous for +4 bonus Adding these properties consumes an amount of bonus equal to the property’s cost. She can divide her bonuses from the crusader’s bond ability among her weapon, armor, and shield as she sees fit.

Second Judgment (Ex): At 9th level, whenever a merciless crusader uses her judgment ability, she selects two different judgments, instead of one. This only consumes one use of her judgment ability. As a swift action, she can change one of these judgments to another type. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 9th level.

Crusader’s Blessing (Su): At 11th level, a merciless crusader can expend a use of her judgment ability as a swift action to grant herself and all allies within 10 feet the Dazzling Assault, Greater Cleave, and Power Attack feats, even if they do not meet the prerequisites. The effects last for 1 minute. Evil creatures gain no benefit from this ability. This ability replaces aura of justice.

Divine Conviction (Su): At 11th level, a merciless crusader can apply holy anathema against any evil creature while judgment is in effect. Holy conviction counts as one judgment when applied against her second judgment or third judgment abilities.

Holy Shield (Su): At 12th level, a merciless crusader can spend two uses of channel positive energy to gain the benefits of the Bashing Finish, Missile Shield, and Ray Shield feats for 1 minute. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 12th level.

Exploit Weakness (Ex): At 14th level, a merciless crusader gains the inquisitor’s exploit weakness ability. This ability replaces aura of faith.

Holy Slayer (Ex): At 15th level, a merciless crusader learns to focus her judgment. Whenever a merciless crusader uses her judgment ability against an evil outsider, she must select one type of judgment. She is treated as if she were 3 levels higher for the purposes of determining the bonus granted by this judgment. Unlike other types of judgment, the one enhanced by this ability cannot be changed for the remainder of the judgment. Every two levels above 15th, her level is treated as 1 higher for the purposes of determining the bonus granted by this judgment, up to a maximum of 5 levels at 19th level. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 3rd and 15th level.

Greater Conviction (Su): At 17th level, a merciless crusader can use holy slayer ability against any evil creature when using divine conviction. Greater conviction counts as two judgments when applied against her second judgment or third judgment abilities.

Third Judgment (Ex): At 18th level, whenever a merciless crusader uses her judgment ability, she selects three different judgments, instead of just two. This only consumes one use of her judgment ability. As a swift action, the inquisitor can change one of these judgments to another type. This ability replaces the mercy gained at 18th level.

Holy Judgment (Su): At 20th level, a merciless crusader can call holy judgment down upon a foe during combat. Whenever a merciless crusader uses her judgment ability against an evil outsider, the merciless crusader can invoke holy judgment on a foe as a swift action. Once declared, the merciless crusader can make a single melee (or ranged attack, if the foe is within 30 feet) against the target. If the attack hits, it deals damage normally and the target must make a Fortitude save or die. The DC of this save is equal to 10 + 1/2 the merciless crusader's level + the merciless crusader's Charisma modifier. Regardless of whether or not the save is made, the target creature is immune to the merciless crusader's holy judgment ability for 24 hours. If a merciless crusader uses holy judgment against an evil creature that is not an outsider, the target is instead paralyzed for 2d6 rounds if it fails its Fortitude save. Once this ability has been used, it cannot be used again for 1d4 rounds.

Code of Conduct: A merciless crusader never suffers an evil outsider to live if it is in her power to destroy it. Banish fiends she cannot kill. Purge the evil from those possessed by fiends. The merciless crusader must also follow the paladin’s code of conduct as it relates to her alignment.

Table: Merciless Crusader
Base
Class Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special

1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Aura of good, detect evil, judgment 1/day
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 Divine grace, monster lore, track
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Aura of courage, divine health
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Channel positive energy, judgment 2/day
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Crusader’s bond, divine sanction
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +5 Holy anathema
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +5 Judgment 3/day
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +6 Anchoring aura, verdict of exorcism
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +6 Holy Vessel, second judgment
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +7 Judgment 4/day
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +7 Crusader’s blessing, holy conviction
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +8 Holy shield
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +8 Judgment 5/day
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +9 Exploit weakness
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +9 Holy slayer
16th +16/+11/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Judgment 6/day
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Aura of righteousness, greater conviction
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Third judgment
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Judgment 7/day
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Holy judgment


hmm, is a delayed access to smite the only option for holy anethema? i was thinking the something along the lines of the thwart foul magic ability of this prestige but for evil outsiders instead, and only during a judgment. Makes things more interesting.


christos gurd wrote:
hmm, is a delayed access to smite the only option for holy anethema? i was thinking the something along the lines of the thwart foul magic ability of this prestige but for evil outsiders instead, and only during a judgment. Makes things more interesting.

[threadjack]Gotta be the flimsiest prereqs I've evar seen. Apart from the 5 ranks in Knowledge there isn't anything here - all the others are just really specifically oriented to Paladins, BUT anyone can pick up the rest of those...[/threadjack]


Full BAB class with Judgements, a boost to those judgements, Monkey Grip, and even better weapon/armor buffing than the paladin? Am I missing something with this class?

Please tell me I'm missing something.

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